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View Full Version : Safe in car is it legal?


POINTMANDDT
10-25-2007, 3:11 PM
If someone were to have one of these safes in there vehicle or truck and put an unloaded hand gun inside it. Would it be considered readily accessible, because all you need is a key or combo for the digital lock? Also, if you had a gun in there would you have to be going to or from a gun range?

http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/CASE018-19801-895.html

MudCamper
10-25-2007, 3:49 PM
Opinions will vary greatly, but you won't be violating the law, because 12026.1 states that 12025 does not apply in this case. And if it's not loaded then you're not violating 12031 either.

Now many will say that you have to be going to and from some-such a place, per the additional exceptions to 12025 that are in 12026.2, but IMO they are wrong. You are not violating any laws with your unloaded handgun in a locked case in your car.

See http://www.paul.net/guns/CaliforniaOpenCarry.pdf

POINTMANDDT
10-25-2007, 4:13 PM
Opinions will vary greatly, but you won't be violating the law, because 12026.1 states that 12025 does not apply in this case. And if it's not loaded then you're not violating 12031 either.

Now many will say that you have to be going to and from some-such a place, per the additional exceptions to 12025 that are in 12026.2, but IMO they are wrong. You are not violating any laws with your unloaded handgun in a locked case in your car.

See http://www.paul.net/guns/CaliforniaOpenCarry.pdf

Cool thanks for the information.

chiefcrash
10-25-2007, 4:43 PM
just make sure the safe isn't TOO hidden...

i seem to remember CA law having something against "hidden compartments" in your car...

get2now
10-25-2007, 4:47 PM
Two of my friends, one with the DOJ and one with the Sheriffs department tell me that they would have no reason or need to know what's inside of one of these safes.
Course it doesn't do much good unless it's bolted down.
Mine is...

G

phobos512
10-25-2007, 6:00 PM
Please don't buy that from CTD. They may have good prices but they're one of the companies that won't bother to ship things to California based on the threat of prosecution by the DOJ / CA law being too complicated.

duenor
10-25-2007, 7:04 PM
I dont buy much from CTD (or SPG for that matter) anymore - they dont have much worth buying these days, but it aint their fault. it's CA's stupid laws and bullying politicians.

I remember the golden days of 90's and early 2000s surplus - when you could buy all sorts of cool things for ten bucks. Ammo was crazy cheap then, too. Too bad I was also poor as a churchmouse then.

the ideal in-car safe would be one mounted (bolted down) inside the arm rest of the back seat. loaded magazines could then be strapped to the vault's outside.

if you really want to be interesting, put a broomhandle mauser in the safe and a bunch of stripper clips of ammo outside.

U2BassAce
10-25-2007, 7:54 PM
Make sure the safe is not permanently attached to the inside of your car. Then it could fall into the catagory of glove box/center console. Which is a no no.

Cable lock to secure safe is good. Don't go bolting it in though.

Liberty1
10-25-2007, 8:05 PM
Which is a no no.

Who says that?

How is a locked firearms safe designed for safe firearms transport a glove box or utility compartment (I don't think 12025 mentions "center console" but could be wrong. Time to read it AGAIN)? It's not very "utilitarian" if it's a firearm specific safe and many are and easily recognized as such. Do you have any case law on this opinion?

metalhead357
10-25-2007, 8:10 PM
Make sure the safe is not permanently attached to the inside of your car. Then it could fall into the catagory of glove box/center console. Which is a no no.

Cable lock to secure safe is good. Don't go bolting it in though.


Doubtful, very doubtful..... I'd bolt it, underseat if possible. Cables are cut wayyyyyyyyyyyy to easy.

Knauga
10-25-2007, 8:51 PM
PC 12026.1 a(1) The firearm is within a motor vehicle and it
is locked in the vehicle's trunk or in a locked container
in the vehicle other than the utility or glove
compartment.

A box (a safe is a box) bolted in the car can and may be construed as a "utility box".

Cable tied to the seat frame with a good quality cable is safe and still difficult to cut quickly and quietly.

Liberty1
10-25-2007, 9:27 PM
A box (a safe is a box) bolted in the car can and may be construed as a "utility box".

Cable tied to the seat frame with a good quality cable is safe and still difficult to cut quickly and quietly.

Is a safe a "utility box" when bolted securely to the vehicle and not when loose? And which AG opinion or case law supports that position? I understand the "I don't want to be a test case" opinions given here but do we really think an ADA will take a charge of 12025 to a jury when an unloaded firearm in a locked and bolted firearm safe is discovered absent any other criminal connection to the firearm?

I contend there is no case law and the fear of securing a safe to a vehicle is unfounded IMO. But hey, I'm exempt so it's easy for me to say (keep that in mind when reading my opinions). Seek an attorney's advice as I've given all my defense fund money to BWO and can't help anyone else right now :p.

Shotgun Man
10-25-2007, 9:54 PM
A box (a safe is a box) bolted in the car can and may be construed as a "utility box".

Cable tied to the seat frame with a good quality cable is safe and still difficult to cut quickly and quietly.

Maybe I'm just being paranoid, but I support Knauga's cautionary approach. You cannot rely on prosecutorial discretion. You cannot rely on a judge having the good sense to dismiss the case. The judiciary (at least in most instances) seems to be a subservient lapdog to the executive branch. If there's a way the law can screw the common man, it usually does.

Knauga
10-26-2007, 5:37 AM
Is a safe a "utility box" when bolted securely to the vehicle and not when loose? And which AG opinion or case law supports that position? I understand the "I don't want to be a test case" opinions given here but do we really think an ADA will take a charge of 12025 to a jury when an unloaded firearm in a locked and bolted firearm safe is discovered absent any other criminal connection to the firearm?

I contend there is no case law and the fear of securing a safe to a vehicle is unfounded IMO.

While I don't disagree with your comments, I'm not willing to be a test case, especially when I can get around it very easily by locking the box to the frame with a cable. We all know that police can often charge first and say oops later, unless of course the ADA decides that they want to push it further and then there is no oops. Hoping for an ADA to realize that a bolted safe isn't a "utility box" is hoping for them to slice some hairs pretty thin on your behalf and I just don't see it happening.

Exempt eh? ;)

POINTMANDDT
10-26-2007, 8:30 AM
Please don't buy that from CTD. They may have good prices but they're one of the companies that won't bother to ship things to California based on the threat of prosecution by the DOJ / CA law being too complicated.

thats true I had to go somewhere else for my new stock problem is I went to florida gun works

CavTrooper
10-26-2007, 8:39 AM
Please don't buy that from CTD. They may have good prices but they're one of the companies that won't bother to ship things to California based on the threat of prosecution by the DOJ / CA law being too complicated.

If youre going by that logic, you should also stop buying from ANYONE who deals with or sells to all CA GOV/LEAs, to include firearms/ammo manufactures, distributors and your local FFL.

POINTMANDDT
10-26-2007, 10:53 AM
So let me get this right, bolting a safe to your car can make it a permanent fixture? How is that illegal, I mean how can they comapre that to say a glove compartment. Also, how would I secure it with cables? Do I run the cables through the bolt holes and then secure it to the car somehow?

Thanks,
POINT

Knauga
10-26-2007, 11:21 AM
So let me get this right, bolting a safe to your car can make it a permanent fixture? How is that illegal, I mean how can they comapre that to say a glove compartment. Also, how would I secure it with cables? Do I run the cables through the bolt holes and then secure it to the car somehow?

Thanks,
POINT

It could reasonably be construed as a "utility box" which is specifically listed in the PC as a place where you can not legallly store a handgun.

Cable locks usually go through the seat frame which is bolted to the car. That's how I have mine anyway.

Citadelgrad87
10-26-2007, 11:33 AM
It could reasonably be construed as a "utility box" which is specifically listed in the PC as a place where you can not legallly store a handgun.

Cable locks usually go through the seat frame which is bolted to the car. That's how I have mine anyway.


I, too feel discretion is the better part of valor, but this makes no sense to me.

How or why would one safe be a "utility box" (and, therefore, illegal) because it is securely mounted, while another, identical box, is not because it is cable locked to a seat frame?

FWIW, about 15+ years ago, I was friends with a couple Class III dealers, they had a van for transport with a strandard gunsafe laying on its back, bolted to the floor.

That's what they used.

Knauga
10-26-2007, 12:04 PM
How or why would one safe be a "utility box" (and, therefore, illegal) because it is securely mounted, while another, identical box, is not because it is cable locked to a seat frame?


Are you seriously trying to make sense out of California gun laws? :eek: :D

*I* don't see the difference between the two, but all it takes is the right cop on the right day for you to learn the difference. I just prefer to play it safe.

There is one safe that mounts on rails that are permenantly attached to the vehicle which is actually encouraged by the SD in my county. The safe isn't permenantly attached, but will lock into place on the rails that are. Also, you are under no obligation to open a safe unless there is a search warrant.

http://www.titangunvault.com/

Liberty1
10-26-2007, 2:12 PM
...but will lock into place on the rails...
http://www.titangunvault.com/


That makes you a "utility compartment" manufacturer/installer and requires a license per 67566.987 of the CVC. I like to play it safe and just open carry it on the passenger seat. :p

metalhead357
10-26-2007, 5:13 PM
In the "Car world" BOLT ons are never considered permananent...but WELD IN's are considered permanant...........

Just fuel for the fire:p

Knauga
10-26-2007, 5:19 PM
In the "Car world" BOLT ons are never considered permananent...but WELD IN's are considered permanant...........

Just fuel for the fire:p

There you go trying to apply common sense to gun laws again! :p

SemiAutoSam
10-26-2007, 6:00 PM
Sounds like a good idea. Just bolt it on with tamper proof bolts and or security Allen or security torx bolts.

That or mount it with weld on studs and use a tamper proof nuts or maybe use MC Gard wheel tamper proof lug nuts or lug bolts.



In the "Car world" BOLT ons are never considered permanent...but WELD IN's are considered permanent...........

Just fuel for the fire:p

M. Sage
10-26-2007, 6:40 PM
I don't see how a gun safe would be construed as a "utility compartment." That's already got a definition. Just so long as it's not like a locking console like they sell for Jeeps, I really don't think it'd be a problem.

Sounds like a good idea. Just bolt it on with tamper proof bolts and or security Allen or security torx bolts.

Carriage bolts, with the nuts on the inside of the safe.

SemiAutoSam
10-26-2007, 6:44 PM
I did that with my MiniVault but the bolts on the inside were a ***** to tighten.

I don't see how a gun safe would be construed as a "utility compartment." That's already got a definition. Just so long as it's not like a locking console like they sell for Jeeps, I really don't think it'd be a problem.



Carriage bolts, with the nuts on the inside of the safe.

metalhead357
10-26-2007, 6:48 PM
I did that with my MiniVault but the bolts on the inside were a ***** to tighten.

Ah heck just NAIL it in :p http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f115/metalhead357/Baby_with_hammer.gif

striker3
10-27-2007, 9:49 AM
So, does anyone have any case law or anything to back up the claim that bolting a safe to the car is illegal while using a cable is legal? It seems to me that without some type of proof to those claims, they both should be considered utility compartments by the more paranoid of the group. Both of them are mounted in the same type of temporary manner. One is more secure, but neither are permanent.

Once again, is there any proof to show that a safe would be classified differently by the way it is mounted?

socalsteve
10-27-2007, 10:39 AM
I think you need to look up the legal (Cal. Legal) definitions of Utility Box as it applies to motor vehicles in California.

Then maybe legal definition of permanently mounted. Legal defintions may not have any relation to commone sense definitions.

Also, you should not look at the Law only in separate short peices but also look or interpret it in a broader sense. Sort of see the trees and see the forest.

I say this because regardless of the legal definition of Utility box, there may be another statue somewhere that specifies "ease of access".

So it may not be a utility box but if it is located so that you can easily open it while seated THAT may be a seperate violation...whether bolted or cabled.

I believe there is some kind of Cal. rule on this. If I remember right it came up while discussing storgae in a SUV or small hatchback that has no trunk.

In such a situation the firearm must not be easily or readily accessable - remember in California self-defense is not an option - they want to weed out the wolves and sheep dogs and only have sheeple:D.

Liberty1
10-27-2007, 12:08 PM
In such a situation the firearm must not be easily or readily accessable.

Accessablity to a firearm is not an element of a CA firearms possession crime in 12025 (concealed pistol) or 626.9 (school zone) or a loaded crime in 12031 (loaded in prohibited area). We should loose this "wives tale" from our gun possession crime discussions related to legal non LTC concealed carry (ie:unloaded and locked in a secure container).

Perhaps people are confused by the loaded definition for 12023 (armed criminal action):

12001. (j) For purposes of Section 12023, a firearm shall be deemed to be
"loaded" whenever both the firearm and the unexpended ammunition
capable of being discharged from the firearm are in the immediate
possession of the same person.


Or some are confused by one of the punishment sections in 12025:

12025 (b) Carrying a concealed firearm in violation of this section is
punishable, as follows:
(6) By imprisonment in the state prison, or by imprisonment in a
county jail not to exceed one year, by a fine not to exceed one
thousand dollars ($1,000), or by both that fine and imprisonment if
both of the following conditions are met:

(A) Both the pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being
concealed upon the person and the unexpended ammunition capable of
being discharged from that firearm are either in the immediate
possession of the person or readily accessible to that person, or the
pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon
the person is loaded as defined in subdivision (g) of Section 12031.

and

(B) The person is not listed with the Department of Justice
pursuant to paragraph (1) of subdivision (c) of Section 11106, as the
registered owner of that pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable
of being concealed upon the person.

MudCamper
10-27-2007, 12:37 PM
The problem is paranoia and misinformation gets spread around to the point where people assume that it's actually law. I know of no definition of "utility or glove compartment". Perhaps there is case law. Perhaps there is not. It's worth researching...

M. Sage
10-27-2007, 2:23 PM
Those at least have definitions among auto manufacturers. Glove compartment is the technical term for your glove compartment, it's in the literature. I have yet to see a manufacturer refer to the compartment in your center console as a "utility" compartment, though. Those are usually "storage". I've never seen a "legal" definition of what that is, either...

56Chevy
10-27-2007, 7:40 PM
We should loose this "wives tale" from our gun possession crime discussions related to legal non LTC concealed carry (ie:unloaded and locked in a secure container).
Yeah, I even see some gun store employees say that the ammo can't be in the same locked container is gun. Some people think they can't even carry a cardboard box that says ammunition on it.

paul0660
10-27-2007, 7:41 PM
So, does anyone have any case law or anything to back up the claim that bolting a safe to the car is illegal while using a cable is legal?

No, just more smoke blowing around here.


Once, children, there were only glove compartments. It's that place that your registration, owners manual, and gloves are, about six inches from your passengers knees. The utility box is the part of the center console that has a box, or boxes, where your Cd's, old Taco Smell wrappers, and roaches are. An interesting thing about them is that they can both be reached from the drivers seat.........there is no way, bolted, cabled, glued, or completely loose, that a locked container, not accessable from the drivers seat, is either a glove compartment or utility box.

M. Sage
10-27-2007, 8:44 PM
Try reaching the glove box in a new Ram from the driver's seat. :p

paul0660
10-27-2007, 9:04 PM
Try reaching the glove box in a new Ram from the driver's seat.

Haven't seen one, and I bet there aren't any glove there anyway!