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oldrifle
10-20-2007, 8:13 PM
Does anyone want to take some action against the ongoing erosion of our second amendment rights in California? Are you in the Santa Clara County area and want to do something about it? PM me if you do.

oldrifle
10-21-2007, 10:12 AM
I'm serious about this. Please respond if you are interested in taking part in a pro-second amendment demonstration. It's time to stop being afraid and to do something about this problem. I can't do it alone. We need a large group for what I have in mind. Yes, it is peaceful.

CitaDeL
10-21-2007, 11:03 AM
Im with you. But Im half a state away.

In order to measure what kind of support you will have, it will be necessary to elucidate what plans you have for a pro-gun demonstration.

Another thread has been made with this in mind, here. (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=70071)

I'm not certain if this is what you had in mind, but personally, I cant think of a more compelling, legal means to illustrate that we support the second amendment than to be openly armed and peacably assembling in a public venue.

MedSpec65
10-21-2007, 11:10 AM
Public demonstrations for "Your Rights" is what THEY DO! They own that tactic and will infiltrate your ranks with agent provacateurs who will use violence and harrassment to discredit you. I salute you for your courage and willingness, but reaching in your pocket for Pro2A lobbying organizations is probably the most effective way to go. This battle will be won in the COURTS, NOT THE STREETS!

bwiese
10-21-2007, 11:49 AM
An EXTREMELY poor idea that not only won't help but will likely hurt.

The news cameras will focus on the illiterates in cammies talking about killing liberals. Then they'll focus on one harmless old codger with a Garand "for balance". Then they'll segue into recent gun legislation, AB1471 and AB821 "improvements" for our "safety".

I was not aware that Bradys could roust up enough provacateurs as per MedSpec65's post but I wouldn't put it past them. Even if they aren't there, a reporter with some verbal skills will likely bait several folks into speaking up inappropriately.

Please rethink this. You're working for the antigunners doing this - I'm sure you have no formal media training, interview skills, etc.

oldrifle
10-21-2007, 11:51 AM
Im with you. But Im half a state away.

In order to measure what kind of support you will have, it will be necessary to elucidate what plans you have for a pro-gun demonstration.

Another thread has been made with this in mind, here. (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=70071)

I'm not certain if this is what you had in mind, but personally, I cant think of a more compelling, legal means to illustrate that we support the second amendment than to be openly armed and peacably assembling in a public venue.

This is pretty much exactly what I had in mind. I should have guessed that someone else would have thought of it.

My idea was to do it in Sacramento at the state capitol. It would be bold and risky but I'm beyond the point of worrying about that now. I'm sure many others feel the same way.

oldrifle
10-21-2007, 11:53 AM
Please rethink this. You're working for the antigunners doing this - I'm sure you have no formal media training, interview skills, etc.

I personally have media experience having been involved in radio. However, I would likely require that there be no words given to or exchanged with the media and let the visual message speak for itself.

bwiese
10-21-2007, 11:57 AM
This is pretty much exactly what I had in mind. I should have guessed that someone else would have thought of it.

My idea was to do it in Sacramento at the state capitol. It would be bold and risky but I'm beyond the point of worrying about that now. I'm sure many others feel the same way.

Yes, just the unthinking ones.

20 or even 100 or even 500 dudes on the Capitol steps ain't gonna be of any use at all.

oldrifle
10-21-2007, 11:58 AM
Public demonstrations for "Your Rights" is what THEY DO! They own that tactic and will infiltrate your ranks with agent provacateurs who will use violence and harrassment to discredit you. I salute you for your courage and willingness, but reaching in your pocket for Pro2A lobbying organizations is probably the most effective way to go. This battle will be won in the COURTS, NOT THE STREETS!

I couldn't disagree with you more. We can't let the anti-gun lobby own the streets. We need to affect public opinion, the largest and most powerful court there is. The noose is getting tighter all the time. They put us on the defense. Why not put them on the defense and show them we won't be pushed around?

SemiAutoSam
10-21-2007, 12:02 PM
As I see it the best place to aim your efforts is organise the gun owners into a aligned thinking group.

The hunters, the target shooters, the Milsurp collectors, the Black rifle owners. etc.

get them all thinking the same way that if you want to keep your style of gun get with the program or the antis will separate is and slaughter us group by group.



I couldn't disagree with you more. We can't let the anti-gun lobby own the streets. We need to affect public opinion, the largest and most powerful court there is. The noose is getting tighter all the time. They put us on the defense. Why not put them on the defense and show them we won't be pushed around?

oldrifle
10-21-2007, 12:09 PM
Yes, just the unthinking ones.

20 or even 100 or even 500 dudes on the Capitol steps ain't gonna be of any use at all.

Thank you for your opinion, but I am a thinking person. I'm also a doing person. I see a lot of thinking and talking among CA gun owners but not a lot of doing.

There is nothing wrong with peacefully carrying arms in public. Just throwing our money at the problem isn't going to solve it. Believe me, there's a lot more power and money on the other side. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. Well, we keep fighting the anti-gun lobby in the same way and we keep LOSING. You can't tell me that things are getting better. We're only delaying the inevitable.

CCWFacts
10-21-2007, 12:14 PM
Even if they aren't there, a reporter with some verbal skills will likely bait several folks into speaking up inappropriately.

Didn't Michael Moore do a whole movie using this technique?

I agree, marches and demonstrations... a terribly bad idea. Don't do it.

bwiese
10-21-2007, 12:46 PM
Thank you for your opinion, but I am a thinking person. I'm also a doing person. I see a lot of thinking and talking among CA gun owners but not a lot of doing.

And yet your 'doing' will achieve nothing and might even alienate folks.

"Look at those yahooos on TV, honey..."...

You will convince no one.

I think some of our 'doing' in CA has actually worked. Even though AB1471 passed, somehow language got into it that essentially makes in unrealizable/ unenforceable ;)

Around two years ago, there weren't any new legal ARs/AKs in California. Now we're up to 70K or more - hell maybe even 100K now. When they tried to change regulations, we stopped 'em.

CA's problems with guns will continue to exist given current demographics and districting, along with folks saying "the NRA doesn't do anything for me so I'm not joining." The latter is incredibly far from the truth, and the NRA can't often tout what it does in the back rooms.

The courts do appear to be the best way of achieving success, along with us fighting regulatory battles here.

And if term limits get restructured/repealed in CA, there won't be this constant onslaught of antigun legislation.

MedSpec65
10-21-2007, 12:53 PM
An EXTREMELY poor idea that not only won't help but will likely hurt.

The news cameras will focus on the illiterates in cammies talking about killing liberals. Then they'll focus on one harmless old codger with a Garand "for balance". Then they'll segue into recent gun legislation, AB1471 and AB821 "improvements" for our "safety".

I was not aware that Bradys could roust up enough provacateurs as per MedSpec65's post but I wouldn't put it past them. Even if they aren't there, a reporter with some verbal skills will likely bait several folks into speaking up inappropriately.

Please rethink this. You're working for the antigunners doing this - I'm sure you have no formal media training, interview skills, etc.One phonecall from the Brady Bunch to some Berkeley anarchist groups like ACTUP and RUCKUS and your rookie operation will look like a criminal skinhead revolt.

oldrifle
10-21-2007, 1:13 PM
It's unfortunate, but you guys are probably right. :(

I'd really appreciate a list of things that I CAN do to help the situation (besides join the NRA and vote for Ron Paul - I did and will do those things). Thanks.

DB2
10-21-2007, 1:24 PM
Unfortunately OldRifle we in California that own firearms, are supposed to own our firearms quietly. Don't do anything publicly in the fear of making every other firearm owner look bad. We are supposed to fight against badly written laws, and when the get passed, were supposed to look at the wording and figure out ways that make it unenforceable. Better yet is using an exemption in a law in some crazy idea to circumvent it all together. When there are enough badly written laws, we are to hope that some court see this and over turns them.

I feel a well, planned well organized 2nd amendment demonstration would work fine. Maybe even contact the NRA and see if they may be able to send a spokesperson to the event. It would probably work best if it coincided with something else, not just out of the blue. Granted your on an uphill battle, but if you listen to most people here, you'll be stuck to writing,calling, and sending money to "The Right People".

Granted writing and calling is supposed to help, I guess. Sure didn't help this year. The key is not to turn the Anti's, they will always exist. The key is to get the "It doesn't matter to me " crowd to matter. Before anyone asks how you do that, I don't know. I just get tired of always being told to wait. Don't worry about that silly law there is more important ones. If we are constantly waiting for the big ones to roll, we'll drowned in the little ones.

oldrifle
10-21-2007, 1:32 PM
Unfortunately OldRifle we in California that own firearms, are supposed to own our firearms quietly. Don't do anything publicly in the fear of making every other firearm owner look bad. We are supposed to fight against badly written laws, and when the get passed, were supposed to look at the wording and figure out ways that make it unenforceable. Better yet is using an exemption in a law in some crazy idea to circumvent it all together. When there are enough badly written laws, we are to hope that some court see this and over turns them.

Your points are very good. I agree with you 100%.

I hate to say it, but California should be renamed "Cowardfornia" because most of us wouldn't have the balls to actually do something like this anyway. I doubt we could even get a decent sized group to do an open carry.

We're all up to our necks in $#&t saying "don't make a wave!". :mad:

MedSpec65
10-21-2007, 1:38 PM
Suit yourselves. I'm not setting myself up for a mob of committed leftists to nail me to the cross. That won't accomplish anything.

RRangel
10-21-2007, 1:46 PM
A march would work fine. Committed commies shouldn't scare committed Americans away. I can see why commies would fear us though.

;)

CavTrooper
10-21-2007, 1:50 PM
I have to agree with the doubters...

Its best to sit on your hands and do nothing. Let the profesionals handle your rights, theyve done an outstanding job so far.. :rolleyes:

MedSpec65
10-21-2007, 1:54 PM
A march would work fine. Committed commies shouldn't scare committed Americans away. I can see why commies would fear us though.

;)Fear us? Why? They were amazed we didn't open fire on them back in the sixties when they started their subversive crap with their dry-cleaned brains courtesy of the KGB. Like little kids, they keep pushing the envelope to see how much more abuse we'll take. They know we outnumber them, but they also know legal gun owners and patriots, unlike them, are people of honor and will use violence only as a last resort. Some external force will bring the chickens home to roost. It's just a matter of time.

CCWFacts
10-21-2007, 1:56 PM
It's unfortunate, but you guys are probably right. :(

I'd really appreciate a list of things that I CAN do to help the situation (besides join the NRA and vote for Ron Paul - I did and will do those things). Thanks.

Those are good things to do.

There's a lot more you can do. At the very top of the list, I would put, teach non-shooters how to shoot. Get people who have never touched a gun before to know more about these inanimate objects. It's fun, it's direct action, it directly benefits everyone. Especially get your liberal and Democrat and other non-traditional-gun-owners out to the range.

Beyond that... show up at city council meetings and ask about CCW issuance in your city. Get active in city council election to elect pro-CCW council members. Write letters to your reps and to Arnie (I know, this can be very frustrating at times.)

MedSpec65
10-21-2007, 2:06 PM
Those are good things to do.

There's a lot more you can do. At the very top of the list, I would put, teach non-shooters how to shoot. Get people who have never touched a gun before to know more about these inanimate objects. It's fun, it's direct action, it directly benefits everyone. Especially get your liberal and Democrat and other non-traditional-gun-owners out to the range.

Beyond that... show up at city council meetings and ask about CCW issuance in your city. Get active in city council election to elect pro-CCW council members. Write letters to your reps and to Arnie (I know, this can be very frustrating at times.)Excellent advice. Counsel the fence-sitters, promote the activity and leave the hoplophobes to stew in their own neurotic juices.

CCWFacts
10-21-2007, 2:15 PM
Excellent advice.

Thank you!

... leave the hoplophobes to stew in their own neurotic juices.

No, send them to me! I'll teach them how to shoot. I have taught so many never-shot-a-gun-before Californians how to shoot, including gun control supporters. Does that instantly change them into NRA members? No. But next time they see some politician spewing lies about "AR-15s can mow down a whole classroom full of kids with one pull of the trigger", they think back to their experience in shooting an AR-15, and some part of them will say, "this is BS, I know what those rifles do."

chunger
10-21-2007, 2:51 PM
+1 on getting new shooters properly introduced. . .

The problem I see in this is that typical ranges in urban areas don't allow you to do necessary/practical exercises to build up basic firearm skills. Shooting controlled pairs, safely presenting the weapon, clearing malfunctions, etc.

I've taken it on myself at (for me) high cost to bring non-shooting friends to classes that teach these basic skills over the course of 3-4 days. Once they are acclimatized, comfortable, and acquire a certain baseline competency with a firearm, they are very inclined to buy one (or 5) and get active. This has yielded the best result in my opinion for advancing the cause. If we can up the percentage of responsible, trained gun owners, we gain concrete ground whatever county or city we live in.

It would be nice to organize with local ranges to offer quality training classes (long enough to get a newcomer immersed, and skills into muscle memory) that go beyond unbox your firearm on a bench, load, and shoot one shot every 2 seconds.

Some people take to it naturally, some take days back to back. My sister in law didn't really start "getting it" until the 3rd day of a 4 day pistol class. Now, she can safely draw and shoot a slow pair to center of mass at 7 yards .. . that's not a huge accomplishment for a lot of folks, but for her, it was a major step forward from shaking in fear just holding the gun.

My wife REALLY enjoyed her experience at Babes with Bullets (Bang Inc.) with Kay Miculek. It would be completely worthwhile in my opinion to bring a camp like that here and sponsor new shooters to go. . . then, the real work by our community here would be to find and convince (bribe, beg, reason, trick) non-shooters that we know to attend and fill it to capacity. It would be money and effort well spent. . . along with all the other things like supporting NRA and writing letters.

CCWFacts
10-21-2007, 3:02 PM
+1 on getting new shooters properly introduced. . .

It's the most effective, most fun, most direct action we can take. Bottom line is, people who have never had personal experience with a firearm are going to be afraid of them, and won't see any reason for them to be legal. That's not some socialist conspiracy, it's just human nature, and it's reasonable in fact.

The problem I see in this is that typical ranges in urban areas don't allow you to do necessary/practical exercises to build up basic firearm skills. Shooting controlled pairs, safely presenting the weapon, clearing malfunctions, etc.

I usually do an hour and a half to two hours of instruction and introduction. This starts with a printed flyer, with written safety rules and written rules of instruction, and some information about the gun(s) they will be shooting. Under two pages. Keep it short and to the point. Then I give a quick talk on safety and what we will be doing, and how the gun works. I also include information about what the gun could be used for, which situations it is suited to, etc. Then it is some dry practice, and then some shooting, and that basically fills up two hours. That's all the information someone can absorb on the first day.

That certainly does not teach them anything about tactics. I would say it is not adequate safety instruction either. Really the main point they get from it is that guns are just machines, and they can handle them with confidence and they can take classes to learn more if they want to. The point of the whole thing is to break the barrier of unfamiliarity.

Note that I'm not a trained instructor. I have no formal qualifications and I would not attempt to teach anything beyond very basic handling and safety unless I got some formal qualifications.

I've taken it on myself at (for me) high cost to bring non-shooting friends to classes that teach these basic skills over the course of 3-4 days. Once they are acclimatized, comfortable, and acquire a certain baseline competency with a firearm, they are very inclined to buy one (or 5) and get active. This has yielded the best result in my opinion for advancing the cause. If we can up the percentage of responsible, trained gun owners, we gain concrete ground whatever county or city we live in.

I have observed the same thing myself (and yes I often supply ammo and everything else for first-time shooters; I consider it my duty).

then, the real work by our community here would be to find and convince (bribe, beg, reason, trick) non-shooters that we know to attend and fill it to capacity. It would be money and effort well spent. . . along with all the other things like supporting NRA and writing letters.

Teaching new shooters is the single most important thing we can do in this state. The way to get them started is to emphasize that it's fun, and it's also safe (they won't get hurt). And indeed, shooting is fun.

My other recommendation is to go with an outdoor range if possible. The blast and noise in indoor ranges is unpleasant. Outdoor ranges are a more pleasant experience in every way.

Paladin
10-21-2007, 3:38 PM
I couldn't disagree with you more. We can't let the anti-gun lobby own the streets. We need to affect public opinion, the largest and most powerful court there is.Yep, and the judge of that court is the anti-RKBA MSM. They are pros, they do this for a living. We'll get creamed. As others pointed out, they will make us out to be either ignorant hicks or nutcases. If the MSM can't put a bad spin on it, they will completely ignore it, just like they did with Arnie signing the Katrina emergency powers limitation. Sure we lost 2 (1 of which may be moot), but we won BIG TIME with that the one we won! :D

Pro-gun marches/demonstrations (incl OC), are, IMO, as much of a waste of time, money and/or effort in Kalifornia as are initiatives.

What can we do?

(1) Take newbies shooting. Make the first time as easy as possible by providing ear and eye protection and the guns and cleaning them yourself afterwards. If you want to be generous, pay for the range fees and the ammo too. Be sure to give them a safety lesson before going to the range.

(2) Join the NRA or upgrade your membership to Life, Endowment, Patron or Benefactor levels (http://membership.nrahq.org/).

(3) Give NRA memberships as Christmas/birthday/graduation/other gifts (http://membership.nrahq.org/). Be sure to mention the free subscription to either America's 1st Freedom, American Rifleman or American Hunter magazine and all the free benefits (http://www.nra.org/benefits.aspx and http://www.nra.org/affiliates.aspx).

"Federal and many state election laws dictate that funds used to assist candidates for office must be raised separately, and that is the task of NRA’s political action committee—the NRA Political Victory Fund (NRA-PVF). Neither NRA member dues nor contributions to ILA can be used directly for the election or defeat of candidates.

Because of these clearly defined parameters, and because only a small fraction of ILA’s operating budget comes from regular NRA membership dues, both ILA and NRA-PVF must continuously raise the funds needed to sustain NRA’s legislative and political activities. The resources expended in these arenas come from the generous contributions of NRA members—above and beyond their regular dues" (http://www.nraila.org/About/PoliticalVictoryFund/).

(4) Therefore, support the NRA's Institute for Legislative Action, the NRA's lobbying arm (http://www.nraila.org/About/, to sign up for their free Grassroots Alert emails: https://secure.nraila.org/EmailSignup.aspx, and to donate: https://secure.nraila.org/Contribute.aspx); and

(5) support the NRA's Political Victory Fund, the NRA's political campaigning arm (http://www.nrapvf.org/ and, if you are a NRA member, log in on the "NRA Members" page to be taken to a secure page for donating specifically to the PVF).

(6) Support the NRA Civil Rights Defense Fund, which fights for your 2nd A RKBA in federal and state courts (https://www.nradefensefund.org/index.aspx). "You can support the Fund’s work through direct donations, estate planning, and support through the CFC or United Way payroll deductions. Our Combined Federal Campaign number is 10006" (https://www.nradefensefund.org/message.aspx and https://www.nradefensefund.org/contributionsnew.aspx).

(7) Work with your local NRA Election Volunteer Coordinator (http://www.nraila.org/About/ElectionActivity/).

(8) Sign up for "CAL-ERTs" from CalNRA to know what bills to support or oppose and when (http://www.calnra.com/).

(9) Join your local CalNRA Members' Council (or start one) (http://calnra.com/mc/directory/).

(10) Get in touch w/Team Billy Jack and tell them you'd like to volunteer to help their efforts (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=72266 and www.californiaconcealedcarry.com).

(11) Keep pro-gun "business cards" handy in your wallet to give to people whom you talk to about guns/RKBA/CCWs, esp at gun shops, shooting ranges, shooting clubs (IDPA, IPSC-USPSA, PPC), and to people looking at gun magazines at newsstands (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=72594).

(12) Put up fliers with RKBA/CCW info on it, keep some in your car w/tape/stapler and post them at different places you go (esp those mentioned in regard to the business cards) (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=72830). And last,

(13) every 2 yrs new voters get to vote for the first time -- figure out how to influence them for our cause (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=72594). AirSoft and paintball can be good half-way steps for minors. See also numbers 1 and 3 above.

Paladin
10-21-2007, 3:51 PM
I have to agree with the doubters...

Its best to sit on your hands and do nothing. Let the profesionals handle your rights, theyve done an outstanding job so far.. :rolleyes:The NRA has done an outstanding job over the past 20 years: http://www.gun-nuttery.com/rtc.php

Anyone old enough to remember the hoopla surrounding the "cop killer" bullet media blitz, the Black Talon media blitz, and the post Stockton school yard massacre assault gun media blitz will know that we have it easy nowadays. The VT massacre occurred and virtually nothing has been shoved down our throats. Plus we fought the antis to a standstill last year even though we got lazy this year and only won 1 out of 3 major gun bills.

Watch that 20 second animated map again. Back in the 1970s we pro-gun people never would have imagined we'd make such real progress. The low hanging fruit has pretty much all been collected. Yet even in some of those states w/pro-gun cultures it took 7 to 10 years to pass "Shall Issue" legislation. Now the fight begins in the antis' strongholds, including Kalifornia. I expect the fight to take the PRK to Shall Issue will take at least 5 to 10 years. I hope the pro gun people here have the stomach for it.

DRSFEFA
10-21-2007, 3:56 PM
The NRA has done an outstanding job over the past 20 years: http://www.gun-nuttery.com/rtc.php

Anyone old enough to remember the hoopla surrounding the "cop killer" bullet media blitz, the Black Talon media blitz, and the post Stockton school yard massacre assault gun media blitz will know that we have it easy nowadays. The VT massacre occurred and virtually nothing has been shoved down our throats.

I hope the pro gun people here have the stomach for it.

And no if's, and's, or but's, remember that cooler heads prevail.

CCWFacts
10-21-2007, 4:00 PM
The low hanging fruit has pretty much all been collected. Yet even in some of those states w/pro-gun cultures it took 7 to 10 years to pass "Shall Issue" legislation.

All the low-hanging fruit and most of the not-so-low hanging fruit have been collected. We are now down to 8 states that aren't issuing easily. The fight is over in most of the US.

And yes, even in gun-crazy Texas, it took them half a dozen legislative pushes, and then replacement of their governor, to get a CCW bill signed.

Do we have the stomach for such a fight here?

SemiAutoSam
10-21-2007, 4:04 PM
Sure I remember those days.
While I wasn't into the NRA and gun laws as much as I was into my Machine Guns (I lived in Nevada) I do remember hearing how the NRA Caved into the antis and gave up the entire country being able to own new machine guns past May 19 1986.

That was the last day a MG could be registered to an individual. Nothing else could be imported past that date and be registered to an individual.

They gave up machine guns so the country could have Milsurps. Not the best trade if you ask me.

SO what your saying is 1987 to present they have been doing OK. But previous to that they did some really stupid things.




The NRA has done an outstanding job over the past 20 years: http://www.gun-nuttery.com/rtc.php

Anyone old enough to remember the hoopla surrounding the "cop killer" bullet media blitz, the Black Talon media blitz, and the post Stockton school yard massacre assault gun media blitz will know that we have it easy nowadays. The VT massacre occurred and virtually nothing has been shoved down our throats. Plus we fought the antis to a standstill last year even though we got lazy this year and only won 1 out of 3 major gun bills.

Watch that 20 second animated map again. Back in the 1970s we pro-gun people never would have imagined we'd make such real progress. The low hanging fruit has pretty much all been collected. Yet even in some of those states w/pro-gun cultures it took 7 to 10 years to pass "Shall Issue" legislation. Now the fight begins in the antis' strongholds, including Kalifornia. I expect the fight to take the PRK to Shall Issue will take at least 5 to 10 years. I hope the pro gun people here have the stomach for it.

CCWFacts
10-21-2007, 4:14 PM
They were sort of blind-sided by the MG ban thing. That got tacked on to the bill late at night just before it passed. I heard that the NRA was confident it would be thrown out in court. In retrospect I think that compromise was a mistake. The reason is that once some type of gun gets banned, it's very hard to undo that. It will never be politically viable to undo the MG ban. It might happen through the courts but never through Congress. Whereas the milsurps thing could have been changed later through politics. So that particular move was a bad move for the NRA. I would rather that the FOPA hadn't passed at all.

Liberty1
10-21-2007, 4:47 PM
What is the worst that comes out of an OC Unloaded demonstration demanding CCW reform? They ban OC. So what. Few exercise it anyway. That would show that they are not interested in crime control but gun bans aimed a law abiding citizens carrying UNLOADED for heaven sake.

And if they don't ban it (unlike the Blank Panther demonstration leading to the incorporated city loaded ban in '68) it would begin to move the topic of self defense carry into the lime light for debate. 38 states have "right to carry" concealed at least not to mention the open carry states. We have the weight of evidence from those states and from the counties here that issue that it is safe and responsible.

This needs to be forced into the media at some time and waiting for "Heller" trickle down relief in CA is 5-10 years away if ever.

I can understand the hesitancy to a mass demonstration and the "fallout" from a poorly executed gathering. Individuals interested in OC in CA should become familiar with opencarry.org and start open carrying where lawful. If you do it, more will too. Small steps are a good start. Knowing the laws and the risks and how to mitigate them can be learned from those postings. At some point we'll plan a gathering for a BBQ, OC walk, or just a meeting; perhaps scheduled next year around the "Heller" decision if the court takes it (we should know in about two weeks+!).

Any mass action should not come to fruition out of frustration but calm calculated and methodical planning that this group has benefited from thus far. Charge of the Light Brigade tactics only make for good movies 100 years later.

http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum12/

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=60482&highlight=open+carry+progress

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=70071

CitaDeL
10-21-2007, 5:36 PM
I'd laugh at some of the responses posted here, if the cause of liberty werent so easily dismissed and in such jeopardy.

The parade of anti-gun legislation continues through our Statehouse to our detriment and our greivances will go unheard if we do nothing to air them.

Since the sentiment has already been so well articulated, I quote:

"If a man neglects to enforce his rights, he cannot complain if, after a while, the law follows his example."

- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr., The Path of the Law.

Those that will not carry their firearm with regularity and the confidence of a person endowed with inalienable rights and those who discourage others from doing so, give birth to a quiet form of tyranny that disarms us all without resistance to our opposition. You are the easiest prey for the anti-gunners because you cooperate with their program. You are marching to their drumbeat each time you neglect to enforce your rights against the encroachment of gun ownership and lawful carry.

Others play into the fantasy that a piece of paper can confer rights to a free person. These people are fooled into preaching subservience to issuing authorities that usurp powers and excersize regulation where they have no Constitutional right to do so. They too, march to the beat of the anti-gunners by selling the concept licenses permit actions... when in reality are the same sort of gun control that 'Microstamping' and 'Lead Ammo Bans' are made of.

If you do not wish to excersize your rights, youre welcome to abandon them, but please do not darken the door here to complain about how the anti-gunners have taken your guns or your ability to use them away.

If however, you want to assert yourself- excersizing both your 1st and 2nd amendment perogative- this open carry walk IS a workable and valuable demonstration. It has been done in Ohio and we can certainly do it here in California. I am open to helping organize such an event if there exists sufficient interest in going forward. Feel free to message me.

otteray
10-21-2007, 8:41 PM
Those are good things to do.

... show up at city council meetings and ask about CCW issuance in your city.


So, at our Santa Cruz City Socialist Council Meeting, I'll speak up right after the nut dressed in pajamas and holding a teddy bear; the paranoid anti-moth spraying group; the pro-Palestinian "peace" activists that hate Jews; and the ban tobacco, smoke pot, inject drugs and welcome illegals crowd.
Ain't gonna happen here... At best, it would only start another local "anti-violence" movement to melt down firearms in order to cast yet another grotesque "Collateral Damage" statue for the local mall.

CCWFacts
10-21-2007, 9:16 PM
If you present yourself based on facts and reason, you will stand out from the various nutcase groups you described. And I would phrase it not in terms of asking them to start issuing, but in terms of asking the city council to dedicate a meeting to investigating this issue. The questions to ask in an investigation are:

1. Is SC's policy legally sound, in its written form and in its application?
1a. Could the police chief be requested to prepare a report on the policy and its implementation?
2. How is the policy (both the written policy and the policy in practice) different from that in other locations?
3. In locations with policies that are different in their effect, such ad Mendocino and Humboldt (similar types of communities to SC, but with radically different CCW policies), how has that worked, from a public safety point of view?

It's all about facts, reason, evidence.

I know for a fact that there are a lot of people in SC who would like permits. If you show up requesting a reasonable review of the situation, and you show up with similarly reasonable supporters, you will open the debate there.

And hey they are so used to debating the same set of non-reasonable issues all the time over there, at least this issue will get some attention because they haven't seen it before.

oaklander
10-21-2007, 9:40 PM
As someone who does PR for a living, I can say that it would be hard to get a PR "win" out of any sort of demonstration. The MSM is not our friend, and the MSM is who will be covering any event. If there's a large turnout with hundreds of people, they'll report that a dozen people showed up. Then they'll find the one person who just happens to say something stupid, and they'll put him on TV.

If none of the group speaks, they'll interview an "anti," and get only that perspective.

The reason that protests have worked in the past for LIBERAL causes, is simply that the MSM media slants to the left, and identifies with liberal demonstrations and liberal causes. They aren't going to like us, and it's going to show in the coverage.

The way to fight antis is though the courts, and in the legislature. That's what the NRA ILA does. Support the NRA, join your local member's council and volunteer to sign up members at gun shows, attend the "fun shoots" that they do, teach non-shooters how to shoot. Budget some money to support the NRA as well.

There's also opportunities on this board for direct action. Talk to HoffmanG and BWeise. Working with HoffmanG, I was able to do my small part to have a certain DOJ memo pulled off their website.

We are doing way better now than we were three years ago. Back then, you couldn't even get an off-list rifle. Now, you can order AK's and AR's and have then DROS'ed at your local dealer. AB1471 is a setback, but we've had a lot of wins and defeated a lot of anti-gun stuff in the last three years.

The trick is to stick together and work with people that are already doing stuff. The protest angle has been kicked around, and rejected, by people a lot smarter than me.

SemiAutoSam
10-21-2007, 10:09 PM
Basically what your saying is this is only the 1st half of the game boys lets get back in there and win one for the GipperGeorge Gipp (
http://und.cstv.com/sports/m-footbl/archive/allambios/nd-m-footbl-gipp.html).


Gipper = George Gipp (Notre dame football legend.)



As someone who does PR for a living, I can say that it would be hard to get a PR "win" out of any sort of demonstration. The MSM is not our friend, and the MSM is who will be covering any event. If there's a large turnout with hundreds of people, they'll report that a dozen people showed up. Then they'll find the one person who just happens to say something stupid, and they'll put him on TV.

If none of the group speaks, they'll interview an "anti," and get only that perspective.

The reason that protests have worked in the past for LIBERAL causes, is simply that the MSM media slants to the left, and identifies with liberal demonstrations and liberal causes. They aren't going to like us, and it's going to show in the coverage.

The way to fight antis is though the courts, and in the legislature. That's what the NRA ILA does. Support the NRA, join your local member's council and volunteer to sign up members at gun shows, attend the "fun shoots" that they do, teach non-shooters how to shoot. Budget some money to support the NRA as well.

There's also opportunities on this board for direct action. Talk to HoffmanG and BWeise. Working with HoffmanG, I was able to do my small part to have a certain DOJ memo pulled off their website.

We are doing way better now than we were three years ago. Back then, you couldn't even get an off-list rifle. Now, you can order AK's and AR's and have then DROS'ed at your local dealer. AB1471 is a setback, but we've had a lot of wins and defeated a lot of anti-gun stuff in the last three years.

The trick is to stick together and work with people that are already doing stuff. The protest angle has been kicked around, and rejected, by people a lot smarter than me.

oaklander
10-21-2007, 10:13 PM
Played by Ronald Reagan in the movie!!!

:D

chunger
10-21-2007, 11:04 PM
In defense of people who decide to "protest". I do remember one gentleman on the forum who showed up to counter-protest. He was pretty quiet, sat in the corner with a simple sign, and got decent press coverage (didn't say anything stupid).

I don't trust myself yet to be that on-the-ball under pressure to make all possible sound bites come off positive.

oldrifle
10-22-2007, 9:32 AM
Let me define exactly what I had in mind for the demonstration:

We all meet up a few blocks away from the Capitol in a park. We walk (not march, we're not military) with unloaded rifles on our shoulders making sure that the barrels are pointed up at all times. When we arrive at the Capitol building we stand in front of the building holding the rifles in the same way, not across our chests or in any sort of aggressive looking manner. We stand, perhaps with a sign in front of us with the words of the 2nd amendment on it, for about 10 minutes or so, then leave. We would do this in silence, talking to no one (except cops if need be).

Does that seem doable or totally off the wall?

bwiese
10-22-2007, 9:51 AM
Does that seem doable or totally off the wall?

It's doably off the wall. Just like open carry demonstrations in CA at a time when we might have a chance at CCW.

It scares folks that don't need to be scared - the middle ground who may have no big opinion one way or the other, and can set them against us.

It puts us back with the 'black helicopters'/militia crowds of the 90s and brings back memories of armed Black Panther marches in 1960s.

And what the hell does this do? Nothing, other than giving fresh meat to the antigunners that we're "armed insurrectionists", and it doesn't sway a single legislator that there's a bunch of pro-gun votes because only a 100 or 200 folks showed up.

xrMike
10-22-2007, 9:53 AM
The trick is to stick together and work with people that are already doing stuff. The protest angle has been kicked around, and rejected, by people a lot smarter than me.The founders did not predicate our constitutional right to assemble peacably and to speak freely upon the assumed intelligence, approval, or advice of others.

Personally, I think it's interesting that somebody would even CONSIDER allowing themselves to be talked out of and dissuaded from exercising his/her constitutionally-guaranteed rights by so-called expert voices on the Internet. Oaklander, I'm not referring directly to you, I just picked your post to reply to -- I'm talking about everybody who is discouraging oldrifle in this thread.

Dude (oldrifle), it's a free country, and if you want to set your soap box up on main street and talk directly to the people, that is your right as an American citizen.

I think our founders would be proud of you.

oldrifle
10-22-2007, 10:27 AM
Dude (oldrifle), it's a free country, and if you want to set your soap box up on main street and talk directly to the people, that is your right as an American citizen.

I think our founders would be proud of you.

Thank you, though I don't feel it's deserved as I haven't actually done anything yet. :)

I'm someone that can easily see both sides of an issue. However, I'm still on the fence as to whether this is a good idea or not. Yes it's my right, but will it hurt the cause more than help it? I'm not sure yet. I think it will send a powerful message. However, that message could be spun to say something very different than what was intended. The enemy fights dirty... that's the problem the right has had in this country for a long time. They (the left) are willing to do things that we aren't, which shows our character but is also a source of our weakness.

I feel like I need to do something though... if not for the cause, perhaps only for my own sanity.

Paladin
10-22-2007, 10:42 AM
The founders did not predicate our constitutional right to assemble peacably and to speak freely upon the assumed intelligence, approval, or advice of others.

Personally, I think it's interesting that somebody would even CONSIDER allowing themselves to be talked out of and dissuaded from exercising his/her constitutionally-guaranteed rights by so-called expert voices on the Internet.That's because he realizes not everything you have a right -- or are at liberty -- to do is wise to do. He also realizes that any idea that may seem good at first blush, might have a downside he hadn't considered. IOW, he realizes he's not God and may have over looked something.

As I've told young women, sure you may have the right to wear only high heels and a thong bikini as you walk about downtown Richmond on a hot summer's night, but that does not mean it is wise to do -- you may get raped. Sure, they may catch the guy and throw him in jail, but when all is said and done, you'll still have been raped and suffer for it the rest of your life.

When undertaking a serious endeavor, the wise man seeks council before acting.

JM2C

CCWFacts
10-22-2007, 10:46 AM
Yeah, you certainly don't need permission from anyone here.

I still think it's a terrible idea. What does it accomplish?

Paladin
10-22-2007, 10:46 AM
I feel like I need to do something though... if not for the cause, perhaps only for my own sanity.Asked and answered. See: http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?p=801285#post801285

Team Billy Jack is still looking for help: www.californiaconcealedcarry.com I've spent about 5 hours mostly last Fri and some today doing stuff for them. There is a TON to do. What are you waiting for?

Kestryll
10-22-2007, 10:55 AM
The founders did not predicate our constitutional right to assemble peacably and to speak freely upon the assumed intelligence, approval, or advice of others.

Personally, I think it's interesting that somebody would even CONSIDER allowing themselves to be talked out of and dissuaded from exercising his/her constitutionally-guaranteed rights by so-called expert voices on the Internet. Oaklander, I'm not referring directly to you, I just picked your post to reply to -- I'm talking about everybody who is discouraging oldrifle in this thread.


So it's full speed ahead, damn the torpedoes and who gives a rats rectum to what damage it does as long as I feel good about my actions?
Great logic, we've now devolved to using the tactics and emotion based responses that the antis are famous for.

No one wants to dissuade someone from exercising their rights, the desire is to see it done wisely in a manner that furthers the cause not harms it.

Think about it realistically, not through the rose colored lenses of 'this is how it SHOULD be!' but with TODAYS media and the message that will go out to all those who aren't sure where they stand.

Here's your 5:00 news broadcast and just how it will be presented:

"And in the State's capital today a small band of hunters, survivalists and pro-gun extremists staged an 'armed march' on the Capital building.
The State Police verified that while the men marched militia-style up to the Capital building, they did it with unloaded and empty rifles.

While this type of display is technically legal surprisingly enough, the implied threat to the State officials was enough to make several lawmakers and gun safety activists call for tighter controls on how firearms can be carried or displayed in public areas.

While none of the members of the march would speak to the press, a supporter of the march had this to say. "[insert senseless, possibly threatening or racist comment made by a carefully chosen unaffiliated onlooker here]"

A spokesperson for he California Chapter of the Brady Campaign had this response to todays march on the Capital.
"[insert carefully worded statement full of deceptive comments, innaccuracies and outright lies designed to convince the undecided who will likely not do research on their own]"

"Pretty amazing there Bob, I haven't seen footage like that since the Black Panthers marched in the 60's."

"In local news..."

The Founders were faced with a much different set of circumstances and a legal system that offered NO chance of redress. While our legal system has some large issues we are not anywhere near as bad as what was facing them.

The Founders used wisdom and thought before taking action and then only acted when pressed to the point of no other option.
To equate where we are at now with where they were at then is to both aggrandize our problems and to minimize what brought them to the point of consciously choosing to take lives in order to rectify the situation.

I think the Founding Fathers would be hopeful that the rules and laws they put in place along with the spirit they tried to pass down would be enough to not have to retread the path they felt they had no other choice but to walk.

We all want to do SOMETHING, that is the spirit passed down to us talking. It drives us to stand up and be heard.
What makes us wary and leads us to look at the overall picture and what affect our actions will have is the wisdom passed down as well.

A war isn't always fought and won in daylight in an open field, often times the deciding battles are won in the dark of night where no one sees it and few remember who fought them.
The 200 yards gained by a suicide charge in to the enemies machine guns is of less value overall then the three cities captured due to carefully gathered intel and the strategic placement of a few good troops.


Thought, wisdom, planning and diligent work are what will carry the day here in California, it won't be quick and likely no one will remember the names of those who do that diligent work but as long as we fight wisely, intelligently and in a committed fashion we WILL win.

oldrifle
10-22-2007, 11:09 AM
Asked and answered. See: http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?p=801285#post801285

Team Billy Jack is still looking for help: www.californiaconcealedcarry.com I've spent about 5 hours mostly last Fri and some today doing stuff for them. There is a TON to do. What are you waiting for?

Thank you, Paladin, I will be getting involved. I forgot to thank those of you who made suggestions for things I/we can do to help. I really appreciate it.

While I am feeling dissuaded from the approach I mentioned earlier, the spirit of what I thought of doing is still alive in me. I will channel it into things that I know will be of benefit for now. If in the future I know these things can and should be done, I will be ready.

Paladin
10-22-2007, 11:52 AM
Thank you, Paladin, I will be getting involved. I forgot to thank those of you who made suggestions for things I/we can do to help. I really appreciate it.

While I am feeling dissuaded from the approach I mentioned earlier, the spirit of what I thought of doing is still alive in me. I will channel it into things that I know will be of benefit for now. If in the future I know these things can and should be done, I will be ready.Don't feel bad. When I first started lurking here, about 2 1/2 yrs ago, I thought for sure the best way of getting to where we wanted to go was by getting initiatives for RKBA Amendment, Shall Issue CCWs and repealing the AWB on the ballot. I joined CGN about 2 yrs ago and by watching that last failed RKBA Amend attempt and the burnout among our guys it caused I realized it hurt us more than it hurt the antis or advanced our cause. (Not to mention the HUGE financial cost w/o assurance it would even win.)

Sure, I get ticked sometimes and sure I'd love to leave the state sometimes, but then I realize that the boring work I've and others have suggested is the best path for now.

When our situation in PRK changes so that other paths may open up or old paths that were rejected may now be worth doing, you can be sure you'll hear about it on CGN first.

That reminds me, there's another thing you can do to promote our cause(s): see http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?p=801771#post801771

;)

CitaDeL
10-22-2007, 1:06 PM
More analysis paralyasis I see.

More hand wringing over what we collectively should or shouldnt do.

Can we all not agree that if we are resigned to do nothing, our opposition gets what they want? And if we continue doing the same things as we have recently, our opposition gets what they want. It is insanity to expect things to change when we do nothing to instigate real change and unfortunately, the changes we need and want do not come without sacrifice and an element of discomfort.

Its my suggestion that if we want to keep and bear arms in defense of life and liberty, we should do so lawfully, even if you do not have a permission slip from your local constabulary. This is possible, though not always convenient.

...Then associate yourselves with like minded individuals and build coalitions with groups like yours in nearby communities. This way, should any of you members or members of neighboring communities should become the victim of tyranny, your resources can be pooled so no one person is burdened by legal defense costs. Further, these groups could do community service as mentioned in a parallel thread- perhaps educating groups about firearms safety or doing clothing or food drives for charity. And when it comes time, I still believe with careful planning a pro-arms rally can be accomplished without an abundance of negative repercussions.

Now the question is, do you have the willingness to put your beliefs into action? Will you claim ownership of the second amendment, and carry your firearm? If not, then dont bother- because you have already surrendered your right and resigned your fate to those who would like to disarm us all- rights be damned.

More Teddy Roosevelt, less Bert Lahr ...

CCWFacts
10-22-2007, 1:45 PM
If not, then dont bother- because you have already surrendered your right and resigned your fate to those who would like to disarm us all- rights be damned.

I personally welcome support at any level from anyone. That could be as little as writing a letter once a year, or just researching the gun rights stance of candidates before voting. That's great! If all gun owners in CA did just those two things we would be set.

I wouldn't put a minimum bar on what is "acceptable" amounts of action. For me, anyone who is taking any action is helping. Telling people "don't bother" and "you're surrendering your rights" is not the right message for getting people involved. Not many people want to open carry in this state.

CitaDeL
10-22-2007, 3:18 PM
I wouldn't put a minimum bar on what is "acceptable" amounts of action. For me, anyone who is taking any action is helping. Telling people "don't bother" and "you're surrendering your rights" is not the right message for getting people involved. Not many people want to open carry in this state.

Excersizing a right gives you a vested interest in preserving it. If you do not excersize the right to keep and bear arms and neither own or carry arms, what difference does it make to you whether or not someone else has the right to keep and bear arms?

Take smoking bans for instance. I do not smoke and dont particularly like the habit. The government has seen fit to regulate smoking in public places, and now want to regulate it in you car if you have a child riding with you. Who throws the biggest fit about that? Smokers. Few others have recognized the infringement on personal liberty. Likewise, if you do not carry your firearm what difference does it make to you that someone who does carry would be prohibited from doing so? It doesnt effect you or your limited view of rights, so why would you bother taking a stand?

Having a vested interest in preserving your rights by carrying your firearm will no doubt change your perspective and level of participation in protecting what is yours. It will no longer be about 'them' or 'those people'...and what's more, you will no longer be a benchwarmer- or worse, a sunshine patriot. No one sees more clearly than those who value what it is they have to lose.

CCWFacts
10-22-2007, 4:25 PM
Excersizing a right gives you a vested interest in preserving it. If you do not excersize the right to keep and bear arms and neither own or carry arms, what difference does it make to you whether or not someone else has the right to keep and bear arms?

It just doesn't work that way. The RKBA includes "keep", which includes protection for guys who collect (but never carry, or even shoot) old lever actions. And yes, a lot of old collectible guns which were never used for anything were destroyed recently in the UK and Australia, so those people, who never carry them, shoot them, or take them out of the safe, still have an interest in this. And you're saying that if they don't tote them around in public then the politics won't matter to them?

Our supporters even include people who don't own guns. Robert Levy, one of the attorneys in the Heller case, claimed not to own a gun, and he is doing more for RKBA than any of us. Do you want to tell Mr. Levy that he's not doing anything because he doesn't go around carrying a gun?

Can white people do nothing for black political causes? Can men do nothing to advance womens rights? Can straights not be supporters of gay rights? Can people who don't carry guns do nothing for gun rights?

Having a vested interest in preserving your rights by carrying your firearm will no doubt change your perspective and level of participation in protecting what is yours. It will no longer be about 'them' or 'those people'...and what's more, you will no longer be a benchwarmer- or worse, a sunshine patriot. No one sees more clearly than those who value what it is they have to lose.

I agree... but I would never be disdainful of support. For example, I don't say things that are controversial. I don't need free speech protection because I don't say anything that anyone wants to be shut up. But I support free speech protection specifically for people who are way out there, like Nazis and so on, even though I don't need that protection myself. Why? Because I view it as the right thing.