PDA

View Full Version : XD vs. Glock vs. HK USP


crs1
10-20-2007, 4:04 PM
I am in the market for a plastic railed .45acp....

Normally being a 1911 guy, I am not sure which route to go. I have shot the XD45, Glock 21, HKUSP .45......Pricing aside, which gun do you guys find more reliable/accurate, and which one's (if not all) are finnicky with ammo, i.e, can I go from ball to hollow points without feed issues?

damon1272
10-20-2007, 4:13 PM
Not to high jack your thread but I too am in the market for a Glock and or an XD in 45. I like the feel of the XD over the Glock.

crs1
10-20-2007, 4:18 PM
The only things I don't like about the Glock are the safety (or lack thereof) and the trigger. But its the "to hell and back" reliability that makes me consider it. I have been told that since I like 1911s, that I should go with the XD -- but I fail to see the comparison other that the grip safety...its a completely different feeling piece. I worry it may become a SW sigma or 99?

CSACANNONEER
10-20-2007, 4:28 PM
How about a plastic double stacked 1911? Doesn't Kimber make one?

proraptor
10-20-2007, 5:42 PM
Id go for the glock just bcause you can buy parts for them and repair them yourselve (they never break anyways). If your XD breaks you need to send it back to springfield....Downtime Sucks

JellyTheory
10-20-2007, 5:44 PM
My vote is for the XD. Turners has the .45 ACP version on sale this week for $499.

-Chris

The SoCal Gunner
10-20-2007, 5:54 PM
Hk USP. You want a .45 with a safety and this is it. Downside is the rail.

Between the XD and Glock, I'd get a Glock because I feel that the grip safety on the XD is somewhat useless though that is what made me buy it in the first place. Either is a fine choice and I like both for different reasons.

They are all accurate and reliable. I own one of each. One thing I dislike about the Hk is that the rails on which the slide rides on are very small though it doesn't seem to be a problem.

Teletiger7
10-20-2007, 5:56 PM
Personal preference. My experience with all the guns mentioned above is that they are reliable, accurate, and well built. I have been shooting mostly Glocks and 1911s. Recently i bought a XD45. The Glock has a slightly different grip angle, which is an issue for some(not me). They all have different feeling triggers. The HK in variant 1 gives you the ability to carry cocked and locked like a 1911. But i would feel just safe carrying the glock or xd with one in the chamber. I don't mind the thumb safety of 1911s or HKs but you don't have to worry about disengaging the safety on glocks or XDs. depends on you. think the XD and Glock are good values. The HK is more pricey and you may or may not think it's worth it. HK would probably be slightly more accurate from a rest. 1-2"(HK) from from rest vs. 2-3"(XD and Glock) from 25 yards, if you think that's gonna matter for you. XD trigger has longer reset than the Glock. I personally only liked using the HK cocked and locked, since the transition from DA to SA feels weird to me.

50ae
10-20-2007, 6:04 PM
I have over 100k rounds down the tube of my USP so my vote would be for that.

aplinker
10-20-2007, 7:16 PM
If your hand is comfortable on the USP .45, then that gets my vote.

You might want to consider the M&P .45, too.

PIRATE14
10-20-2007, 7:23 PM
In a world of conpromise.......some men don't.........or get a glock if you do.........:D

Teletiger7
10-20-2007, 7:27 PM
In a world of conpromise.......some men don't.........or get a glock if you do.........:D

^^^^^Hilarious^^^^^

Travis
10-20-2007, 7:33 PM
I love my XD45 :cool:

mike100
10-20-2007, 7:38 PM
I'd wait to see if the HK45 comes to CA first. I have a USP and I'm tempted to steer you toward a glock21.

gunrun45
10-20-2007, 7:51 PM
It all depends on what fits your hand IMO. Try and fondle/ shoot them all. You will have a definate preference in the end.
I am not a Glock fan.
I love my UPS45f and carry it every day on duty. I tried a Glock 21 but it always sat in my had wrong and I would point shoot it about 2 feet high at 15 yards.
Dofferent size/ shape hands means differnt guns for different folks.

I think in this day and age all are comparable in durability, reliability and strength. There are a ton more add on's for Glocks but then you don't really need them with an HK IMO. The H&K rail issue can be solved with a simple surefire or GG&G slimline rail adapter mount.

PLINK
10-20-2007, 7:55 PM
I love my Glock 21. The trigger you can tune yourself. I can't stand the factory XD trigger. Too much pretravel and a long reset. Springfield can make the trigger nice but it requires you to send it out to them. Other +'s for the Glock is the mags are cheap, no safety, reliable, and you can shoot the hell out of it with no worries.

The only other poly .45 I personally want to check out is the M&P 45. I have yet to handle one.

SVRider
10-20-2007, 8:05 PM
My XD45 Service was OK, but I ended up selling it when I picked up the XD45 Compact....just fit my hand better. I liked the system, but as others had mentioned, trigger leaves something to be desired.

The day I picked up the XD, off it went to Springfield.....Competition trigger job (4-1/2lb though), refit the barrel and added Heinie night-sights.....it's now my HD pistol....love the thing now. There is now zero movement in the barrel. I've got some nice 1911's, but just don't feel comfortable leaving a pistol "Condition 1" around the house.

Would I trust the XD? Heck yeah! It's never missed a beat, even with a couple of hundred rounds of HST which has a gaping hollow-point. It's my go-to....

N6ATF
10-20-2007, 8:32 PM
In a world of conpromise.......some men don't.........or get a glock if you do.........:D

That's going in my HKPro sig.

gmcal
10-20-2007, 8:58 PM
If you can, shoot each to compare.

I read many times from people that for polymer they prefer HK because of the similar ergonomics and safety to the 1911 (I own a 1911 and love it). Took my Glock 19 to compare to a USP compact 9mm. The USP does not work for me. I was not accurate with it, hated the trigger and mag release, and I prefer the steeper grip angle of the Glock in lightweight pistols to help manage recoil. I still own my G19, it is a favorite of mine, and do not any Hk's. Nothing against Hk, just not my cup of tea.

I also prefer the Glock over the XD for many of the same reasons. But, only you can decide for yourself, so get yourself to a range and beg, barrow, or rent the pistols and see for yourself.

Ryan HBC
10-20-2007, 9:20 PM
Either of them is a win, either of them will be rock solid reliable. Don't let anyone tell you that the Glock is more reliable than the XD or the USP. In my opinion anyone who does is Glock fan boy and cannot be taken seriously. Be careful, there are a lot of them.

yellowsulphur
10-20-2007, 10:04 PM
I've got six more days till I pick up my 21. I like the reliability, versatility, and after market support Glock offers. I plan on doing a 10mm conversion once Lone Wolf sells their long slides for the 6 inch barrel. I don't think XD or HK have these options available in the after market. Here is a slide for the 22:

http://www.lonewolfdist.com/images/products/LWD-SLIDE22.JPG

Greg-Dawg
10-20-2007, 10:43 PM
Glock.

Rums
10-21-2007, 1:35 AM
What is this gun getting used for?

I would never suggest buying a Glock if an XD is an option, but it really does depend on what you're using it for. If its home safety, definitely go for the USP. If its just for fun shooting or competition, definitely the XD (and go with a 9mm). The biggest similarity between the XD and the 1911 is the angle of the grip of this pistol. Its very similar to that of a 1911.

Someone said if your Glock breaks you can fix it yourself. But the XD has a lifetime warranty and repairs are free. Downtime is usually less than two weeks as well (when I had to send mine in it took a week). I own both a USP and a SA XD, I definitely like both for different things. The USP has a superior system in terms of safety and decocking (you can decock or put on the safety or both, unlike say a beretta which forces you to decock). I'm honest about the fact that I've never been a big fan of the glock (however I've generally had better experiences with calibers larger than 9mm so you should be alright). Glocks are just picker guns in my experience. My USP has never failed in any capacity in over 15000 rounds. No feed issues, no slide issues, no ejection issues, nothing. Not a single round. So if you're looking for reliability, USP is fantastic and chews through all types of ammo. XDs are supposedly similar to the USP in this regard, but I've only shot white box winchester through it. In terms of accuracy, its going to really depend on you as a shooter. My XD is a 5 inch, so the sight radius is great for my accuracy.

Like I said I'm not much of a glock fan, but I'll be the first to tell you to go out and buy either and XD or USP, both a great guns. Transitioning from a 1911, I think I would recommend the XD because it borrows a lot from the 1911. Be prepared to learn how to shoot a new type of trigger though.

EricCartmann
10-21-2007, 8:14 AM
My XD45 Service is my favorite handgun. It even trumps my 1911 which cost 3 times more. 14 rounds in one package is kinda awesome and you should consider the XD for that fact alone.

XD is also pretty accurate but hand gun accuracy is a moot point anyways as none of them are really accurate. For me all my handguns are about the same accuracy wise. If you can hit black at 25 yards (or even 10 yards) then that should be good enough.

As for reliabilty, can't really comment on that as I have only put about 500 rounds of FMJ and 50 rounds of JHP through her, but so far so good.

proraptor
10-21-2007, 9:19 AM
Someone said if your Glock breaks you can fix it yourself. But the XD has a lifetime warranty and repairs are free. Downtime is usually less than two weeks as well (when I had to send mine in it took a week).

Springfield does have great customer service but I refuse to send my pistol out for repair....This alone was enough for me not to buy an XD....If springfield was smart they would start selling individual parts...

The aftermarket support for glocks is another reason I went with them....Its amazing what you can do to a glock...

Third reliability is awesome....When I was in the market for a handgun I went to the indoor range and shot the sig 220st and it jammed twice in about 30 rounds (so much for the to hell and back reliability). I went to an IPSC match and saw multiple XD's go down during stages like the 1911's and 2011's love to do....There were a bunch of glocks there and none had any problems....

My mind was set....glock it was....Very happy with my purchase

metalhead357
10-21-2007, 10:48 AM
Just me.....but ALL I heard with XD was problems problems problems whenst they first came out. Have two friends up north that cant gid rid of thiers for $200 less than retail...they gave up and now the XD's sit in the safe(s).

Personally I LOVE Hk, but own a glock too. Go with HK and you wont ever regret the decision...........

Mize
10-21-2007, 11:55 AM
Check out the M&P. Nice gun, and at a good price.

TacFan
10-21-2007, 12:30 PM
Just me.....but ALL I heard with XD was problems problems problems whenst they first came out. Have two friends up north that cant gid rid of thiers for $200 less than retail...they gave up and now the XD's sit in the safe(s).

Personally I LOVE Hk, but own a glock too. Go with HK and you wont ever regret the decision...........


I've never heard of XDs with problems. Only good comments. I myself have two XD45s but have yet to take them to the range. Nevertheless, I bough them because of their reliability and good reviews from owners.

leelaw
10-21-2007, 12:33 PM
If you train with 1911s, I'd recommend the HK USP and XD over the Glock. Go to a shop with all three and test the feel and pointing when you draw and decide what works for you.

thomasanelson
10-21-2007, 12:56 PM
I have all three in several calibers (9,40,45). IMHO there is no question:
HK
Glock
XD
.......in that order. Two of my three XD's are for sale on this forum. All are good guns and considering price, you can't go wrong with a Glock. If you want the best, go with an HK.

metalhead357
10-21-2007, 2:58 PM
I've never heard of XDs with problems. Only good comments. I myself have two XD45s but have yet to take them to the range. Nevertheless, I bough them because of their reliability and good reviews from owners.


here's but one...
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=29610&highlight=Springfield
though it is on a barrel conversion. Think we must travel in different circles here on the board as about a year ago I was considering one when nearly all I saw here was XD problems......called each of my buddies with them and asked how they'd like them...they dam near wanted to give them to me; these are two guys I've mentioned on several threads that also thought (For a while...until edumikated) the Keltec was a decent firearm. For them to jump so quickly OFF the XD was enough for me to shy away..... but again, that's just me........and I am very opinionated on guns and more so on first hand impressions of peeps I know and trust like the aforementioned friends.


to be fair, here is a older thread on some actually liking the XD
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=40223&highlight=Springfield

But then again-
With two aptly more readily available, tried & true firearms like the USP and/or the glock............ if it twer my money or my friend(s) I'd do all I could to steer them off an XD.......... YMMV

Soldier415
10-21-2007, 3:30 PM
The only things I don't like about the Glock are the safety (or lack thereof) and the trigger. But its the "to hell and back" reliability that makes me consider it. I have been told that since I like 1911s, that I should go with the XD -- but I fail to see the comparison other that the grip safety...its a completely different feeling piece. I worry it may become a SW sigma or 99?

They recommend that because of the grip angle. The XD grip angle is based on the 1911, and the glock's is canted forward more.

Meaning, if you are where your muscle memory tells you that you are on target (if you are a 1911 shooter), you will be aiming several inches higher with the glock.

XD looks much better IMHO

Socal858
10-21-2007, 3:52 PM
cant stand the XD. hate the trigger. hate the higher bore axis. hate how clunky it feels. and it hasnt been out long enough to make me confident in its reliability

theres nothing wrong wtih being a "glock fanboy". check out bigbore's g21 torture test, done by steve from adcofirearms. buried in silt, snow, sand, dropped off a plane; still running strong. you cant kill it.

chris dont let the lack of manual safety bug you, youll stop noticing it soon. its an accurate & well made pistol with a reputation that precedes it. the grip angle isnt a huge deal.

hk usp - more accurate than the g21 IMO. fits my hand better and i love the mag release. however i do hate the price and it did not rate as well on bigbore's torture test . .

Rums
10-21-2007, 4:01 PM
Check out the M&P. Nice gun, and at a good price.

...if you want to buy a new gun every two or three years.

crs1
10-21-2007, 7:52 PM
Wow, lots of great feed back here.....

Thanks for all the info, the thing is, I have shot and fondled all of these guns, and the problem is, I liked them all. So that is where the decision gets complicated. In a perfect world, I would get one of each!

I have a Steyr M9 right now, and I think the glock would be very similar, so I'm thinking it may be good to go with HK...

5968
10-21-2007, 9:25 PM
My vote is for the H&K USP! I own it and love it.

metalhead357
10-21-2007, 9:36 PM
Wow, lots of great feed back here.....

Thanks for all the info, the thing is, I have shot and fondled all of these guns, and the problem is, I liked them all. So that is where the decision gets complicated. In a perfect world, I would get one of each!

I have a Steyr M9 right now, and I think the glock would be very similar, so I'm thinking it may be good to go with HK...

So there you have it. Now go do it before you second guess yourself..... we've all been there. And who knows what may come in the coming months- you may end up still buying the others as you said. Life is way toooooo short to squander time over decisions like these if you already own at least one gun. I wouldn't say what I said if it was to be your first gun, or you ONLY gun (well, ok..I'd still say HK all the way!) but over the course of a lifetime your wants WILL change; so get what you want now, and worry about tomorrows wants..well, tomorrow;)

N6ATF
10-21-2007, 11:00 PM
Always shop around for used H&K USPs... I've seen more and more popping up under $600. Don't pay anywhere near what you would new.

Socal858
10-21-2007, 11:05 PM
My vote is for the H&K USP! I own it and love it.

fast318 is selling a compact i beleive


http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=72792

boo yeah. really good guy, i sold him my benelli

AresXD40
10-21-2007, 11:43 PM
XD 45 for me. As for the lack of parts there are only a few parts that are not avaliable to the public anymore. Most of the ones that you need to "build" a gun IE Slide/Frame, and the extractor and a couple of others. Out of the entire parts list I believe there are only 7 or 9 parts you can't get. Trying to locate the current list from XDTalk right now. Will update if I can find it.

hoozaru
10-22-2007, 7:16 AM
if you are rich get a HK, if not stay with a Glock.

1911su16b870
10-22-2007, 11:36 AM
Own all three (HK USP 45, Glock 21 and XD 45). My favorite of the three is the G21, XD second and HK third. IMO the USP requires more grip pressure than the others to shoot accurately, and such if I were issued/carried an USP, its the only gun I would regularly be shooting. I like the G21 slide and it seems that when you point in with the G21, as long as the rear of the slide is square in your vision, your sights will naturally be on target.

crs1
10-22-2007, 8:11 PM
I don't see why everyone is saying hks are so expensive...last time I checked, Glocks aren't cheap either....maybe if it was the hk usp elite?

aplinker
10-22-2007, 8:52 PM
I don't see why everyone is saying hks are so expensive...last time I checked, Glocks aren't cheap either....maybe if it was the hk usp elite?

It's about a $200 difference. The way people here will bend over backwards end rounding their FFL to save $20, that's enough to change things.

krazz
10-22-2007, 9:36 PM
My USP has had ejection issues with poor ammo. My G21, G19, or G27 has NEVER had one single issue with well over 10,000 rounds between them.

N6ATF
10-22-2007, 11:50 PM
It's about a $200 difference. The way people here will bend over backwards end rounding their FFL to save $20, that's enough to change things.

http://bani.anime.net/o_rly.jpg
http://imagem.uncyc.org/pt/a/a0/No_not_rly_owl.jpg

Less than $50 more than a Glock 21? Because that's how much I paid.

Crazed_SS
10-23-2007, 12:13 AM
Really.. HKs cost $50 more than Glocks? Where can I get a brand new .45 caliber HK for 650 bucks?

Hello, my Used (CPO) Sig P220 cost $600 and I thought that was a good deal..

aplinker
10-23-2007, 11:31 AM
Really.. HKs cost $50 more than Glocks? Where can I get a brand new .45 caliber HK for 650 bucks?

Hello, my Used (CPO) Sig P220 cost $600 and I thought that was a good deal..

All depends on what you consider the price of each.

Best consistent deals I see for Glocks are just south of $500. Best consistent deals I see for USPs are about $700.

That means you've got to find a USP for $550. That's not gonna happen.

PistolPete75
10-23-2007, 12:19 PM
no need to spend the extra money on the hk. get the glock 17. reliable as hell, and very affordable. plus it has alot of aftermarket support.

proraptor
10-23-2007, 12:41 PM
I love my glock 17

Bizcuits
10-23-2007, 1:20 PM
I own an XD 45ACP, 5inch model, I love the gun, but to be honest, I wish I had bought a G21.

Why?

The chamber indicator on the XD, will break off after hard usage... Leaving you with an ugly hole onto of the gun.

Springfield doesn't sell replacement parts. Glock does. I personally do not like having to mail my gun to someone for them to fix it....

My XD45 has jammed twice. Thats two times to many... my XD 9 has never jammed.

I love my XD's and will never sell either of them, but my next purchase will be a G19 and it will be my SHTF gun, because of their rock solid durability.

With that said though, I carry and will continue to carry my XD9 to work everyday and put my life on it.

Oh and I would never buy an HK, only because I think they're ugly as hell. And I've seen some videos of them failing sand torture tests.

Gryff
10-23-2007, 1:48 PM
Just me.....but ALL I heard with XD was problems problems problems whenst they first came out. Have two friends up north that cant gid rid of thiers for $200 less than retail...they gave up and now the XD's sit in the safe(s)

Funny, other than a striker tip breaking for one competitor, I have NEVER seen an XD fail at a match or the range. My XD has 10,000+ rounds sent down range with exactly one failure to extract.

I shot the G21SF recently. Everything went 8" low and left, which I hear is not uncommon until you learn to place your finger on the trigger correctly.

Between that and the fact that a Glock will fail to cycle correctly if you don't hold it right, I have a hard time trusting a gun that requires me to adjust to it rather than working than way I do. Good guns, but only if you do things their way.

H&K, I've shot a few and seen a few in competition. Pricey, but good quality.

S&W M&P45...one of the softest shooting .45s I've handled. Very nice.

My next semi-auto is an XD45 Tactical for home defense and CDP division in IDPA.

By the way, there are several quality gunsmiths that work on the XD trigger, as well as at least two drop-in trigger kits now available.


-Jim

Crazed_SS
10-23-2007, 2:51 PM
All depends on what you consider the price of each.

Best consistent deals I see for Glocks are just south of $500. Best consistent deals I see for USPs are about $700.

That means you've got to find a USP for $550. That's not gonna happen.

Exactly..

ajl2121
10-23-2007, 3:46 PM
I live in Orange County and checked everywhere in the surrounding 50 mile radius for the best price on my HK USP .45F before purchasing one about 3 months ago...I paid $759 (before taxes and fees). That's the best deal I found on any new HK USP .45F....Fortunately mine came w/ factory meprolight night sights as well...I was thrilled. Couldn't seem to find one even w/o night sights for any cheaper in a brick and mortar store.

BTW, the number of rounds that the glock, xd, or HK holds is somewhat of a moot point for us CA residents that don't plan on moving out of state any time soon. All 3 hold 10+.

Aside from quality, accuracy, and all the objective factors...I think the USP just looks much more handsome than the other two...plus I love the DA/SA.

metalhead357
10-23-2007, 4:47 PM
That means you've got to find a USP for $550. That's not gonna happen.

LOL! I guess I shouldn't say it but MAKE FRIENDS WITH A DECENT FFL;)
the MOST I've ever paid for a USP was $650. Granted....this is now a couple years later but I bought TWO for less than $500 a piece NIB:eek:...and no they aint for sale:p

the deals ARE out there- you just gotta wait for 'em and be willing to either jump when its there or you will be paying above market for them most of the time in Cali:cool:

metalhead357
10-23-2007, 5:07 PM
Couple more problems for the XD........... right here.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=72831

The SoCal Gunner
10-23-2007, 6:51 PM
Couple more problems for the XD........... right here.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=72831

Search enough and you'll find problems for each gun that the OP is interested it. The thing is the majority of each type of pistol will work the way it should so it all really comes down to preference in gun and features, warranty, and maybe availability of parts and accessories.

Shoot the gun that works for you and work out the kinks if any. If it turns out to be a lemon than get rid of it.

EricCartmann
10-23-2007, 6:56 PM
Search enough and you'll find problems for each gun that the OP is interested it. The thing is the majority of each type of pistol will work the way it should so it all really comes down to preference in gun and features, warranty, and maybe availability of parts and accessories.

Shoot the gun that works for you and work out the kinks if any. If it turns out to be a lemon than get rid of it.

+1 to that... here is something I posted in another forum:


A handgun is just a handgun, they are all pretty much all the same, and none of them are really all that accurate in the first place (compared to a rifle that is). Get a combination of what you think the best looking, best value, best feeling, gun is. If you can hit black at 10 yards then that is good enough. I myself think practicing quick drawing from a holster and acquiring a sight picture as fast as you can is much more important than having tight shot groups at 25 yards. Lets face it, in a stressful, self defense situation, that tight 1/2" shot group you got off of a bench, on sandbags, with 5 minutes between shots will not mean anything.

For me, I really like my Sig P220, but 8 round capacity leaves it a lot o bit short. The XD is all I can ask for a hangun, the trigger is a bit different than I am use to, but it I am slowly learning how to use it better. I bought the XD based on the one and only fact that it holds 14 rounds of 45 ACP in one package. I guess if price was no object and it was between the XD, HK, and SigP220, I would go HK. I don't think the HK can do anymore than my XD, but it does seem a like a gun that is just built better, regardless my next hangun is going to be an HK45 just because I think they look cool, and because variety is cool.

aplinker
10-23-2007, 8:18 PM
I wouldn't disagree with you in the least. But along with your $500 NIB once in a lifetime USPs, there's someone out there with a once in a lifetime $300 Glock.

My point isn't about what's possible, it's about what's the consistent, realistic street price difference.

Overall this is an issue of what you want and like. The capacity issue in CA is meaningless. 8vs10rds is hardly anything. We can't get 14rd XDs or 12rd USPs.

LOL! I guess I shouldn't say it but MAKE FRIENDS WITH A DECENT FFL;)
the MOST I've ever paid for a USP was $650. Granted....this is now a couple years later but I bought TWO for less than $500 a piece NIB:eek:...and no they aint for sale:p

the deals ARE out there- you just gotta wait for 'em and be willing to either jump when its there or you will be paying above market for them most of the time in Cali:cool:

Bizcuits
10-23-2007, 8:22 PM
I wouldn't disagree with you in the least. But along with your $500 NIB once in a lifetime USPs, there's someone out there with a once in a lifetime $300 Glock.

Speaking of that one of my supervisors sold a LNIB G19 for $200 to river city gun exchange. Myself and another almost strangled his ***, because we both were willing to give 400

N6ATF
10-23-2007, 11:44 PM
I wasn't replying to posts about NEW guns... sheesh. Where did that come from?

If you're buying new, you're just begging to pay too much when there's a perfectly functional non-s***ty looking used gun out there.

ajl2121
10-23-2007, 11:53 PM
I'm sure I'm not the only one, but I would never buy a pre-owned pistol unless I really had to. Even if the used one were to be inspected, fired, and scrutinized for quality and reliability, I would just prefer to be the only owner of my gun (similar to how I would never buy a used bed or clothing). This is not to come of like an elitist comment...I'm a student with a less than perfect financial situation; however, smart spending allows me the luxury of not using used items...Just my preference in life.

The SoCal Gunner
10-24-2007, 12:31 AM
I'm sure I'm not the only one, but I would never buy a pre-owned pistol unless I really had to. Even if the used one were to be inspected, fired, and scrutinized for quality and reliability, I would just prefer to be the only owner of my gun (similar to how I would never buy a used bed or clothing). This is not to come of like an elitist comment...I'm a student with a less than perfect financial situation; however, smart spending allows me the luxury of not using used items...Just my preference in life.

That's fine with me. More off-list and rare pistols that can only be PPT'ed for me. Only buying new is nice but I figured I can have twice as much guns if I pick up good quality used ones from time to time. I always inspect before hand and it depends on what the gun will be used for. If I have to have a gun in perfect condition than it will be new, otherwise used works just as well for me.

fireblast713
10-24-2007, 3:22 AM
I'm sure I'm not the only one, but I would never buy a pre-owned pistol unless I really had to. Even if the used one were to be inspected, fired, and scrutinized for quality and reliability, I would just prefer to be the only owner of my gun (similar to how I would never buy a used bed or clothing). This is not to come of like an elitist comment...I'm a student with a less than perfect financial situation; however, smart spending allows me the luxury of not using used items...Just my preference in life.

Guns are mechanical things, and if properly cared for will last for a very long time, it's not really like buying a used bed, more like buying a used power tool or something. You don't sleep in your gun, or eat off your gun, or stick your gun into any private places (at least I hope you don't) so it's not like a gun gets "tainted" by someone owning it.

chickenfried
10-24-2007, 9:02 AM
Whoever managed to get away with the topic shift should be a politician. That was slick.

Ohhhh you meant prices of new guns...:rofl2:

N6ATF
10-24-2007, 10:18 AM
Blame the OP for never specifying NEW, not me.

Rums
10-24-2007, 3:32 PM
Couple more problems for the XD........... right here.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=72831

Any XD made in 2006 or later will not have this problem because Springfield changed the finish.

metalhead357
10-24-2007, 4:42 PM
Any XD made in 2006 or later will not have this problem because Springfield changed the finish.


there was MORe than the finish.............Also the loaded chamber indicator is ALWAYS notched up, it was like this when I bought the gun new from turners but it works perfect so I didnt really care. So I'm thinking that if I send the slide to get refinished they could fix the chamber indicator too:eek:

Guys dont get me wrong; Springy makes fine (other) guns........... I just forever seem to run across the BAD for the XD....maybe its just 'net karma:confused: even when I aint looking for anything bad about them~ they still appear (at least to me) about 5X more frequently than just about any (recent) pistol; with only the jennings, locern et al being still the capstones of stoopiddome.

But C'mon...... a gun made in the 21st century having FINISH problems right outa the gate:cool: You go spend your money on 'em.... I'll wait until the 3rd or 4th gen with Service pack 2 installed before I pick one up.....

Sidewaysammy
10-24-2007, 4:53 PM
Any naysayer on the M&P 45 ???
I too am looking at the USP 45, G21, XD45 and the M&P45.
THe UPS is expensive, but the G21 and the rest are in the same ball park.
My hand is XXL so size doesnt bother me.
Curious if there is anyone out there who looked at the M&P while also looking at the XD 45?

Need to make a deicision soon, my 30 days are coming up...........

odysseus
10-24-2007, 4:55 PM
maybe its just 'net karma

It is. Honestly, this stuff is out there for every handgun I can think of on "teh internets". A good analogy is how many Glock pages/threads there are out there of problems and "do not buy". Some true, while most an over amplification.

Actually the XD system design and finish is a little older than some think, being it is a Croatian HS95 and then HS2000. The new finish and updates are courtesy of Springfield putting capital into this platform. Anyone with a XD45acp model has the new finish, and any of the new ones. The chamber indicator having problems is new to me, but with any mechanical part there will be a failure set, as all firearms do have. With a lifetime warranty from Springfield, it's hard to think that's too big of an issue right now.

XD's are good pistols. HK's are good. Glocks are good. I like them all, but one thing I don't like on Glocks is the position angle of the grip, which I know I am not alone on. It's not a big show stopper for me, but everyone has their personal prefences.

BamBam-31
10-24-2007, 5:00 PM
Sooooo...crs1, did you end up getting an HK?

MedSpec65
10-24-2007, 5:54 PM
Spend the bucks. Get the H&K.

EricCartmann
10-24-2007, 7:04 PM
Another thing to consider is you will also need 5 magazines minimum. And things to hold your weapon and magazines.

5 HK magazines = $250

5 XD magazines = $125

XD comes with holster and magazine holder = $0

HK holster and mag holder (cheap krydex ones) = $40

All in all that's $165 more you have to pay for the HK that you did not consider. Also each HK mag only hold 12 rounds while the XD holds 13 :D

metalhead357
10-24-2007, 7:08 PM
Also each HK mag only hold 12 rounds while the XD holds 13 :D

in free states............
Not here; both hold 10:cool:

davedog665
10-24-2007, 7:09 PM
I"d go xd the grip angle is alot more common to that of the 1911 i know my friend shoots 1911 and both are guns feel very similar. Plus now you can get alot of aftermarket parts and for the basic parts springfield will actually ship it to you to install however this is limited because to live up to a lifetime warranty they want to do most of the work.

so i would choose xd .45 i've shot 2250 rounds now no probs. trigger feels butter but thats me feel um all shoot um all and after that you can't decide buy um all

aplinker
10-24-2007, 7:16 PM
Did you forget what board you're on?

We can only buy 10rd mags. HK USPf .45 mags are $20 from CDNN, so that's $25 less than XD.

The holster that comes with the XD is garbage and equivalent would cost $10.

I'm not even trying to push him toward HK, but uninformed and incorrect information is misleading.



Another thing to consider is you will also need 5 magazines minimum. And things to hold your weapon and magazines.

5 HK magazines = $250

5 XD magazines = $125

XD comes with holster and magazine holder = $0

HK holster and mag holder (cheap krydex ones) = $40

All in all that's $165 more you have to pay for the HK that you did not consider. Also each HK mag only hold 12 rounds while the XD holds 13 :D

EricCartmann
10-24-2007, 7:23 PM
Did you forget what board you're on?

We can only buy 10rd mags. HK USPf .45 mags are $20 from CDNN, so that's $25 less than XD.

The holster that comes with the XD is garbage and equivalent would cost $10.

I'm not even trying to push him toward HK, but uninformed and incorrect information is misleading.

oh yeah i forgot about the mag thing. but you never know if you might one day have to or want to move out of CA. So nice to know that your gun can hold 14 rounds in one package.

i guess i like garbage, my XD holster did me just fine for a pistol class just recently. i have no need to buy another. is the mag holder garbage too?

about the HK mags, wow! $20 for 10 round mags and $50 for 12 round mags. $30 to hold 2 extra rounds! Dam!

Crazyhorse
10-24-2007, 7:31 PM
I'm not a plastic fan at all, but I have shot the Glock and HK and the HK felt so much better in my hand. I'm also not a fan of guns without a safety, but some like it. Glock is the AK of pistols I keep hearing, reliable as hell but I haven't had problems with either so not sure there. I have shot a bit out of a M&P .40, maybe in the 1k rounds range and like a glock it just doesn't fit my hand like I like.

aplinker
10-24-2007, 7:36 PM
Yeah, I can't explain the $30 difference in the mags, except supply and demand?

We already know you like garbage, dude. We've been over this a number of times. :D

The holster... It's a hunk of molded plastic. It's not worth more than $10. The mag holders are a hunk of plastic, too, like other ones on the market for $10. My point is that their cost is hardly a deciding factor. But sure, in the box it makes it look like a cool package.

The XD in .45 doesn't fit my hand at all, but it's a good gun. I ended up with bruises on my palm. No alteration in grip completely fixed it. I could probably eventually find a way, but it's not my 1st choice for personal reasons like that. I certainly wouldn't steer someone away from it because of something like that. I think it's a good value. I don't think it's as tried and true as the others. That decision will change in the next couple years or so as they show their longevity (I think they'll be just fine).

There is no bad choice in those 3.

oh yeah i forgot about the mag thing. but you never know if you might one day have to or want to move out of CA. So nice to know that your gun can hold 14 rounds in one package.

i guess i like garbage, my XD holster did me just fine for a pistol class just recently. i have no need to buy another. is the mag holder garbage too?

about the HK mags, wow! $20 for 10 round mags and $50 for 12 round mags. $30 to hold 2 extra rounds! Dam!

EricCartmann
10-24-2007, 7:42 PM
......We already know you like garbage, dude. We've been over this a number of times. :D ......


some people say Jessica Simpson and Alba are garbage, but I like them too. Glad we know where everyone stands. ;)

Sniper3142
10-25-2007, 7:38 PM
I think either an XD45 or USPf45 would be a good choice. I've got both pistols and like each one for different reasons.

The XD45 is a decent shooter and was fairly in-expensive. It feels good in my hand and the trigger a okay (but the reset is too long).

The USPf45 is an amazingly accurate pistol. It feels great in my rather large hands and is a solid and quality piece.

I just ordered a USPc45 and can hardly wait for the 10 day wait to be over. While I don't regret getting the XD45, it really was a knee jerk reaction to not being able to get an USPc45 from my local shop. The USPc and fullsize are so much better put together and accurate. There really is no competition.

I've also handled and shot a Glock 21 & 21SF. It is much better than the XD but not nearly has nice has the USP.

20!2
10-25-2007, 11:10 PM
I seriously considered the XD-9, but the look really grows old after a while. Glock's simplicity really stuck with me, whereas the XD begins to look like a toy.

Go Glock.

Gryff
10-25-2007, 11:24 PM
I've also handled and shot a Glock 21 & 21SF. It is much better than the XD but not nearly has nice has the USP.

At this year's IDPA Nationals, there were several gun manufacturers there with samples of their guns to shoot. After firing the M&P, Para-Ordnance, Wilson, and CZ, I fired the Glock 21SF. While guns from the first four makers were hitting torso-sized steel targets at 10 yards at point-of-aim, the Glock was throwing rounds so far low and left that most weren't even hitting the target.

I think Glocks are great guns except for the fact that you have to adjust to the gun. They do not provide an instinctively accurate point-of-aim if you are used to shooting most other types of pistols (except maybe Lugers).

I've fired 10-to-12K rounds through my XD, and probably 4K through my Glock 34. To this day, the only excitement I feel for the Glock is my ability to work on it myself, while I actually love shooting the XD (especially the tactical model).

So, everybody has opinions. Form your own based on how each gun shoots for you (the key concept there is to go shoot the guns before you buy one).

-Jim

Sniper3142
10-26-2007, 12:57 PM
At this year's IDPA Nationals, there were several gun manufacturers there with samples of their guns to shoot. After firing the M&P, Para-Ordnance, Wilson, and CZ, I fired the Glock 21SF. While guns from the first four makers were hitting torso-sized steel targets at 10 yards at point-of-aim, the Glock was throwing rounds so far low and left that most weren't even hitting the target.

-Jim

Wow...

Sounds like you got a hold of a busted Glock. All of the ones I've shot (over half a dozen over the last 15-20 years) has been very accurate. In fact, a Glock 22 surprised the heck out of me and my friend when I put 50 rounds into a hole smaller than my fist @ 25 yards. And at the time, I pretty much hated Glocks and was trying to show my friend how much better a S&W all metal gun was to the plastic pistol.

Blue
10-26-2007, 12:59 PM
My opinion is that if you've got the cash, get the HK. Otherwise, get the XD.

neomedic
10-26-2007, 8:06 PM
Gryff...do have the same experience with all other glocks? I think it might be the G21SF that had something wrong with it. I shot a friends G26 and hit the bull's eye at 50 feet. Probably luck as I tried to do it again but couldn't. But my grouping was about 1.5"

I was surprised since its a subcompact, but sold me on how accurate glocks can be. And it was a new gun that still needed to be "broken in" :43:

aca72
10-26-2007, 8:27 PM
It's a toss between the GLOCK 21 and HK USP 45.

RE: GLOCK 21
Read the article from glocktalk.com entitled, "I think my 21 has proven its durability"

http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:J0BTP7zjfygJ:www.glocktalk.com/showthread.php%3Fs%3D%26threadid%3D462537+I+think+ my+21+has+proven+its+durability&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=2&gl=us

URL is cached from Google due to glocktalk.com's downtime.

MedSpec65
10-26-2007, 9:53 PM
Shop around for HK USP mags. I found some a few months back for my .45c for $18.00. I think it was on Midway. No brand name but they work flawlessly.

philthy209
10-26-2007, 10:27 PM
i love my glock. it was the first handgun i ever bought so i am quite bias yet every handgun i have bought since has be inferior.

N6ATF
10-26-2007, 11:24 PM
First gun I ever shot was a Glock (not by choice). Nowhere to go but up (as far as plastic guns go).

metalhead357
10-26-2007, 11:57 PM
Shop around for HK USP mags. I found some a few months back for my .45c for $18.00. I think it was on Midway. No brand name but they work flawlessly.


CDNN was once having the $14 sale about 6 months back; they consistantly keep coming in as the lowest for the places I tend to venture to..........

matalac
01-15-2009, 3:58 PM
...*sigh*


XD = extremely reliable. Most parts are available. Lifetime warranty. Bore height above grip is more than glock. Some say better "1911-like" grip angle.(40 s&w mags work in XD9's and act as high caps without being so:43:)

HK USP = well first off H&K can be held to a fairly high standard. Their stuff is expensive and for a reason. Fit and finish is nice. Remember these pistols were designed to be used with gloves. Expensive mags.

Glock = rock solid. POSSIBLY more reliable than XD's, the XD9 could have an edge. Time will tell, and any difference imo is negligible. Great aftermarket support.



ALL - reliable. Accurate. As has been rehashed over and over and over and over, try to shoot each if possible. Create a list of strong preferences and dislikes. It's hundreds of dollars, but on the other hand they will ALL serve you well. You just have to do your part and either find one that fits you well out of the box, and, regardless if so, PRACTICE ALOT. PRACTICE PRACTICE PRACTICE. Don't buy a pistol thats big $$ if you cant afford to be proficient with it or feed it. Would you trust your pistol with sd rounds that you've never practiced with?

In the end ignore the fanboy nonsense. Go on each guns' message boards and check out common issues/elements of each gun. The internet's pretty useful. Do some searching. As you can notice I don't have many posts. I know how to look for what I want to learn/know about. Don't be ignorant about a 400$+ purchase. Do your homework and don't let the Hordes of glock fans persuade you before you do your own research and gain the experience to make an educated choice instead of going off of internet hearsay and myths.

PowderBurn1
01-15-2009, 4:56 PM
I have a usp .45 I love it.

tacticalcity
01-15-2009, 4:59 PM
If a Glock fits your hand then I would say Glock is the best. The trigger is excellent and consistent, and there is no safety to fight with. In an emergency, a safety can get you killed (if you are too slow because of safety you might take incoming fire and it is "game over").

In theory the XD sounds like a nice alternative to the Glock if those pesky Glock finger grooves are too small for your fingers (which was my problem with Glocks). In reality, not so much. It has a really, really long trigger reset. And that leads to accuracy problems. You almost have to completely release the trigger in order to fire again. Where on a Glock, you only have to slightly release it and it resets. So you will get faster follow up shots with a Glock, assuming you actually train and learn what the heck you are doing.

HK USP comes in a LEM trigger that is very similar to the Glock. It has a very short reset. And it does not have those tiny Glock finger grooves that feel like they are made for a child. Problem is, the only HK USP LEM on the approved CA Handgun list is a .40 S&W Compact. That's great if that is what you are looking for. If not, you will need to send it back to H&K and have them install the LEM trigger. This can take a very long time and adds around $100 to your over all cost.

The HK USP Variant 1 is another option. It has a Double Action/Single Action trigger. Which normally I HATE!!! However, unlike most polymer frame handguns you can carry the HK USP "cocked and locked". Meaning you rack the slide so the hammer is to the rear and flip the safety on and carry it in your holster that way. When you draw your firearm, you flip off the safety as you point in on your target. The ensures that you have a very light single action trigger pull every time. The reset is very short as well. Doing this allows you to have the same consistent trigger pull as a Glock, XD, M&P, or HK with a LEM, only the trigger pull is much, much lighter.

Why does any of this stuff about trigger pull matter? When shooting a traditional Double Action / Single Action trigger the first trigger pull is extremely stiff and causes the point of aim to move all over the place making it extremely hard to hit what you are aiming at. Then your next trigger pull is extremely short and light making it extremely easy to hit what you are aiming at except your natural tendency is to jerk the trigger because your just got done fighting that first really hard pull. The end result is you usually end up having a first shot that is over the targets head and follow up shots that hit the dirt a few feet in front of the target. Not a good thing. A lot of beginners think they will have time to cock the hammer and thus bypass that first hard trigger pull. But you won’t, and you shouldn’t train that way. Since most handguns that have Double Action / Single Action triggers also have safeties that double as de-cockers you can not carry them cocked and lock. With the HK you can (just like you can with most 1911s). So you can easily get around that hard long first trigger pull by carrying cocked and locked. Glocks, Springfield XDs, Smith & Wesson M&Ps, the Walther P99 QA, and HKs with LEM triggers all get around this problem by offering a trigger that has the same trigger pull from start to finish. The problem is, not all of them are created equally…as I stated above.

My solution? I carried a Glock forever, despite the fact that my hand did not fit in the finger grooves. It led to accuracy issues at distances over 25 yards. Not that big of deal, but it did bug me. Eventually I sold my Glock 19 to Merc headed to Iraq…because he asked me to. Over the next several months I tried all of the handguns mentioned above. The idea of fighting with a safety bothered me, so I checked out all the “Glock Killers”. In the end, I went with an HK USP Compact in Variant 1 (Double Action / Single Action) because the single action pull was so nice, and I could carry locked and cocked. If over time I decide I do not like having the safety, I will send it in to HK to have them install the LEM trigger...problem solved.

I am sure there are lots of people that will say none of this matters. I hear it all the time. They've clearly never shot in competition or taken a course at a school like Front Sight. When you are shooting side by side with people you get a hint at what a real life gun fight might be like. If you are fighting a double action trigger pull and your opponent is not...your dead meat! Combining accuracy and speed with a handgun is hard enough without your trigger fighting you all the way.

Echidin
01-15-2009, 5:07 PM
check out bigbore's g21 torture test, done by steve from adcofirearms. buried in silt, snow, sand, dropped off a plane; still running strong. you cant kill it.

The XD was also put through a torture test of its own. Don't get me wrong I am a fan of both the Glock and HK, but the XD seemed to hold its own pretty well through a 20,000 round torture test.

http://springfield-armory.primediaoutdoors.com/SPstory11.php

Army GI
01-15-2009, 5:12 PM
If you train with 1911s, I'd recommend the HK USP and XD over the Glock. Go to a shop with all three and test the feel and pointing when you draw and decide what works for you.

I agree with this. The USP45 is a the "1911 paradigm" as mentioned by HK. They are very similar. I plan to buy a USP45 this year.

jimrod
01-15-2009, 8:24 PM
I have both a Glock 21 SF and HK USP 45. Both are great guns that are highly reliable and accurate. The Glock is well known to be a trash eater...that is it will feed any ammo reliably. I can't say that i've ever experienced any failures to feed or extract with either gun whether it be HP or round nose ammo. I do like the New Glock SF frame better as it fits my hand like a glove. My Glock seems to be slightly more accurate than the HK and I can often shoot 5-round 1 hole groups at 7 yds. BTW, I just sent it out to Wilson Combat for a handfitted match barrel that will do the same at 25 yds. You won't go wrong with either the Glock or HK USP - too bad HK45 is not available in CA!. The Glock has been around for 20 years and the USP for about 14 or so. Both have been battle and combat proven, have survived severe torture testing (submerssion, mud, sand, freezing, run over by tanks, dropped from planes, shot at, etc.) by many of the world's military and police agencies and have been adopted by many (particulary the Glock). The XD is a relative newcomer on the block that in my mind, does not yet have this proven pedigree. I'm not saying that it is not up to the challenge, only that is has not proven itself or perhaps has not been given sufficient opportunity to do so yet. You should pick whichever fits your needs best and should consider going to a gun range where you can rent these guns and try them out for yourself. Let us know which you choose.

Gryff
01-15-2009, 8:50 PM
In theory the XD sounds like a nice alternative to the Glock if those pesky Glock finger grooves are too small for your fingers (which was my problem with Glocks). In reality, not so much. It has a really, really long trigger reset. And that leads to accuracy problems. You almost have to completely release the trigger in order to fire again.

I'm confused on how the XD reset length affects accuracy. You're not pulling on the gun as you let the trigger out, and if you stop immediately after the reset, you have the equivalent of a single-action trigger.

The reset is longer than a Glock's, but you do are not letting the trigger all the way out. What it, in theory, causes is minutely (and I mean minutely) slower follow-up shots. If you put the necessary rounds downrange to learn the feel of your trigger, this is absolutely a non-issue.

In a recent IDPA match, starting from a surrender position with gun in holster while wearing a concealment garment, I performed a Mozambique/Failure Drill three-round engagement on a target at 5 yards in 1.86 seconds. And that was with a completely stock XD45 using factory 230gr. ammo. I beat every other shooter in the match on that target, including Masters using Glocks with competition triggers.

The point being is that despite tiny differences, go with the gun that feels right and works right for you. Of the three discussed, none are a bad choice if you've taken the time to figure out which is the best for you. I respect Glocks to no end, but that Luger-shaped/brick-feeling grip causes me no end of accuracy problems. That issue doesn't exist for many other people, but for me, I won't trust my life to a gun that doesn't point instinctively for me.

The Glock is well known to be a trash eater...that is it will feed any ammo reliably.

Just don't put lead bullets if you don't want the gun to blow up. If you are going to shoot lead-bulleted ammo, plan on dropping another $100-200 on an after-market barrel.

jimrod
01-15-2009, 9:03 PM
I'm confused on how the XD reset length affects accuracy. You're not pulling on the gun as you let the trigger out, and if you stop immediately after the reset, you have the equivalent of a single-action trigger.

The reset is longer than a Glock's, but you do are not letting the trigger all the way out. What it, in theory, causes is minutely (and I mean minutely) slower follow-up shots. If you put the necessary rounds downrange to learn the feel of your trigger, this is absolutely a non-issue.

In a recent IDPA match, starting from a surrender position with gun in holster while wearing a concealment garment, I performed a Mozambique/Failure Drill three-round engagement on a target at 5 yards in 1.86 seconds. And that was with a completely stock XD45 using factory 230gr. ammo. I beat every other shooter in the match on that target, including Masters using Glocks with competition triggers.

The point being is that despite tiny differences, go with the gun that feels right and works right for you. Of the three discussed, none are a bad choice if you've taken the time to figure out which is the best for you. I respect Glocks to no end, but that Luger-shaped/brick-feeling grip causes me no end of accuracy problems. That issue doesn't exist for many other people, but for me, I won't trust my life to a gun that doesn't point instinctively for me.



Just don't put lead bullets if you don't want the gun to blow up. If you are going to shoot lead-bulleted ammo, plan on dropping another $100-200 on an after-market barrel.

You're absolutely right Gryff - thanks for mentioning it. Lead bullets don't play nice with polygonal Glock barrels as lead fouling jacks up the internal pressure to the breaking point. Change out the barrel to a conventional rifled one for shooting lead. For all copper-jacketed bullets of any design, you should not experience any feed/extract failures from a Glock.

till44
01-16-2009, 8:53 AM
I'd love the FNP-45, too bad it is not available in CA...yet. (hopefully)

N6ATF
01-16-2009, 10:12 AM
You're absolutely right Gryff - thanks for mentioning it. Lead bullets don't play nice with polygonal Glock barrels as lead fouling jacks up the internal pressure to the breaking point. Change out the barrel to a conventional rifled one for shooting lead. For all copper-jacketed bullets of any design, you should not experience any feed/extract failures from a Glock.

I had a couple.

BLACK LION
01-16-2009, 10:59 AM
all are fine choices....


I however own a tactical xd .45 that will go to my offspring when I am gone...

lawrence29
01-16-2009, 11:43 AM
Hk USP or 45 & Sig. New P250 in 45 at Shot 09. Check out Ken's page! Nice...

randy
01-16-2009, 12:22 PM
Glock

basskisser2002
01-16-2009, 12:56 PM
The only things I don't like about the Glock are the safety (or lack thereof) and the trigger.


I wish Glock would make a trigger like my S & W M & P40.

eccvets
01-16-2009, 3:23 PM
usp is by far the best of the 3!

Vectrexer
01-16-2009, 6:13 PM
HK Wins!

But it's really more what your own body does in response to the pistol. Even a Raven .25 might be more effective than a HK USP in the right hands

drunktank
01-16-2009, 9:27 PM
...*sigh*


XD = extremely reliable. Most parts are available. Lifetime warranty. Bore height above grip is more than glock. Some say better "1911-like" grip angle.(40 s&w mags work in XD9's and act as high caps without being so:43:)

HK USP = well first off H&K can be held to a fairly high standard. Their stuff is expensive and for a reason. Fit and finish is nice. Remember these pistols were designed to be used with gloves. Expensive mags.

Glock = rock solid. POSSIBLY more reliable than XD's, the XD9 could have an edge. Time will tell, and any difference imo is negligible. Great aftermarket support.



ALL - reliable. Accurate. As has been rehashed over and over and over and over, try to shoot each if possible. Create a list of strong preferences and dislikes. It's hundreds of dollars, but on the other hand they will ALL serve you well. You just have to do your part and either find one that fits you well out of the box, and, regardless if so, PRACTICE ALOT. PRACTICE PRACTICE PRACTICE. Don't buy a pistol thats big $$ if you cant afford to be proficient with it or feed it. Would you trust your pistol with sd rounds that you've never practiced with?

In the end ignore the fanboy nonsense. Go on each guns' message boards and check out common issues/elements of each gun. The internet's pretty useful. Do some searching. As you can notice I don't have many posts. I know how to look for what I want to learn/know about. Don't be ignorant about a 400$+ purchase. Do your homework and don't let the Hordes of glock fans persuade you before you do your own research and gain the experience to make an educated choice instead of going off of internet hearsay and myths.

This is an excellent post in my opinion. To add to it I was more or less in the same boat last year. I shot everything around me and went with the USP (though a last minute decision had me choose the 9mm).

For ME, the grip angle of the glock wasn't wierd at all and the "high bore axis" of the HK's wasn't bad. The 1911 "hype" (no disrespect, I DO want one) had no affect on me as well - meaning that I don't think it's the best pointing, feeling, valued gun out there etc. The XD feels different than the other three mentioned obviously. The HK was the best feeling for ME, so I went with it. The "relatively" small cost increase for mags, guns itself, etc. means nothing to me as this serves as my HD weapon as well. Either way I'd trust my life with all manufacturers listed after shooting around 1k rounds trouble free which shouldn't be an issue at all with any ammo off the shelf. Good luck with your search,:)

mywytefeet
01-17-2009, 1:26 AM
I wish Glock would make a trigger like my S & W M & P40.

I'm so glad they don't.

5968
01-17-2009, 2:05 AM
H&K FTW!:25:

mywytefeet
01-17-2009, 2:09 AM
H&K FTW!:25:

Although I'd personally take a glock, it does seem like the HK would be the best bet if you're coming from a 1911 (since you can get a variant with a safety (since you like those sorts a things.))

Not to mention HK are rock solid guns.

downfall
01-17-2009, 6:14 AM
I have owned and carried the XD SC, when I lived in the US before moving to the PDRK Then i bought a G19 and have not looked back since. The Glocks combo of low bore axis, short trigger reset, simple design, availability of accessories and ability of civilains to work on them, make them my weapon of choice. Having said that I would stick with the 9mm glocks as the other calibers have proven to be problematic. I am certainly to Glock fan-boy but they seem to work for me.

Sam
01-17-2009, 10:09 AM
In an emergency, a safety can get you killed (if you are too slow because of safety you might take incoming fire and it is "game over").

I've never bought this argument against any handgun with a safety. If practiced correctly, a person should be able to swipe the safety off as they are drawing or as they are picking up the gun for home defense. It shouldn't take anyone any longer to ready a safety-less weapon as one with a safety. We can always talk about if a person will remember to swipe the safety off. Again, this boils down to practice. I've never had a problem remembering to, it has become automatic for me, I do it without thinking when I need to do it. Although, I have to say that a frame mounted safety with the off position being down is the best. Those on the slide, for myself anyway seem way too high for easy off access during a draw.
-Sam

5aa12
01-17-2009, 10:27 AM
I like my USP. I have probably 3k rounds through the tube and never had any problems. In addtion I like the ambi controls, de-cocker and ease of break down for cleaning. Others milage may vary.

draconianruler
01-17-2009, 5:36 PM
Price not an issue I would get the HK USP. Otherwise, I would take a Glock, then HK, then XD.

walter
01-17-2009, 7:31 PM
i use to bash on glock fan boys when i got my xd.. but now I pretty much damn near worship glock.. why?

1. trigger break is closer to the rear of the gun and shorter reset
2. lighter but still has less felt recoil
3. goodamn unlimited aftermarket support
4. overall just seems more efficient

ar15barrels
01-17-2009, 7:42 PM
For ME, the grip angle of the glock wasn't wierd at all and the "high bore axis" of the HK's wasn't bad.

If you shoot them all side-by side and REALLY shoot them a bunch, the combination of the glock's shorter reset and lower bore axis really do make it the faster shooting gun compared to an XD or HK.

When I say faster, I'm talking about putting multiple good hits on a target as quick as possible.

ar15barrels
01-17-2009, 7:43 PM
I like my USP. I have probably 3k rounds through the tube and never had any problems.

Only 3k rounds?
It's still new.
Go shoot that gun already.

slowjonn
01-17-2009, 8:14 PM
CRS1,

If you are a 1911 guy already, stick with that platform. Seriously. Your gonna be disappointed with a plastic gun. I have owned and carried both the Glock 21 and HK USP45 (sold both). I currently own a 5" XD. None of them feel or hold my attention like a 1911. I would sell my XD if I could get a decent price for it. Plastic just don't work for me.

All three guns were/ are extremely reliable. Never had an issue with any of them. If you go that route, all will be solid in the reliability arena. You will just be disappointed in the fulfillment department. Some feel that reloading more with a 1911 is slower than having extra capacity in the plastic guns. Bah! I consistantly out-shoot and reload faster than my plastic carrying counterparts.

Good luck with your search. Everyone should own a plastic gun once (or three times:D), but I suspect you will continue to reach for the 1911 once the newness wears off that plastic.

drunktank
01-18-2009, 2:47 PM
If you shoot them all side-by side and REALLY shoot them a bunch, the combination of the glock's shorter reset and lower bore axis really do make it the faster shooting gun compared to an XD or HK.

When I say faster, I'm talking about putting multiple good hits on a target as quick as possible.

Interesting point! I'll check it out next time we go out. Normally we shoot 1k or so rounds each, every month.

Tarn_Helm
01-18-2009, 3:16 PM
I am in the market for a plastic railed .45acp....

Normally being a 1911 guy, I am not sure which route to go. I have shot the XD45, Glock 21, HKUSP .45......Pricing aside, which gun do you guys find more reliable/accurate, and which one's (if not all) are finnicky with ammo, i.e, can I go from ball to hollow points without feed issues?
http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p13/AimSmllMssSmll/GLOCKLOGO.jpg
Get a Glock Model 21 for all the usual reasons, durable, simple, cheap, customizable, etc.

No thumb or grip "safety."

Accepts an aftermarket 10 MM barrel (http://www.lonewolfdist.com/Products.aspx?CAT=4) and Glock 10 MM mags, making it both a .45 ACP and 10 MM gun, depending on what you need it for--much cheaper than buying two guns, one .45 ACP and one 10 MM.

Glocks are ugly but are also cheap, simple, durable, versatile, reliable, and functional.

If you can stand the looks and the ergonomics (which don't bother me at all), go Glock.

Plus, you can put nightsights on it.
http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p13/AimSmllMssSmll/HOMEBOYnyte-sytes.jpg
:punk:

Capt. Speirs
01-18-2009, 8:18 PM
HK USP fan till the end.

ar15barrels
01-18-2009, 8:21 PM
HK USP fan till the end.

HK, because you suck and we hate you.

http://larrycorreia.wordpress.com/2007/10/09/hk-because-you-suck-and-we-hate-you/

Army GI
01-18-2009, 9:13 PM
HK, because you suck and we hate you.

http://larrycorreia.wordpress.com/2007/10/09/hk-because-you-suck-and-we-hate-you/

our gun is on the cover of the Rainbow Six video games. Look how cool that SEAL coming out of the water looks… If you buy a $2,000 SOCOM, you will be that cool of an operator too. And chicks will dig you.

LOL:D:D:D:D

CRS1,

If you are a 1911 guy already, stick with that platform. Seriously. Your gonna be disappointed with a plastic gun. I have owned and carried both the Glock 21 and HK USP45 (sold both). I currently own a 5" XD. None of them feel or hold my attention like a 1911.

Quoted for absolute truth. If you're a 1911 man, you'll be fooling yourself trying to like a polymer framed pistol.

Don't get me wrong, the HK45 and HK USP 45 are great handguns. But .... they won't connect with you the way a 1911 will.

cyamate
01-18-2009, 9:48 PM
Two cents from a person who testfires the majority of the firearms confiscated by a major US law enforcement agency.

A safe answer is that all three of the weapons are excellent choices etc. Granted they all are good examples of later generation designs that take advantage of modern manufacturing techniqes, materials, and modern design aids. But each design was designed with a different sales philosophy that dictated form and function.

Near and dear to my heart is the Glock family of handguns. Please note I was not always a Glock lover, in fact I began my career a dedicated 1911 fan, but employment and actual use have caused me to take notice of newer designs. Glock's advantages are their price (being the cheapest of the three in both firearm, magazines, parts, and aftermarket accessories), reliability, performance, and philosophy that each weapon is a family member in a weapon system, versus a single pistol out of a catologue.

Now each shooter is different and there will be many points of view contrary to the reliability and performance issue. Reliability wise many entities have done multiple tests of the different weapons systems, both formal and informal. The Glock family has the smallest number of moving parts, (even better since they are the cheapest, and easiest to obtain) compared to the Springfield and the HK design. Any reasonable person could pick up a copy of the Glock armorers manual crack it open and do well with their pistol. There is not a whole lot to it, and it is a design that requires very little oil.

Check out the torture test done by a member over on ARFCOM. It is impressive as hell. Sand, mud, water, salt water for weeks at a time, dragged from a truck, shot with a .22, dropped from a plane, buried for more than a year, and yet she still cleaned up and fired fine. They tried a USP and it choked on the sand. Mind you the tests were done slide open and closed. If it was handy I would post the links but it is late and I am tired.

The low bore axis, trigger reset concept put out by AR15 barrels is correct. The USP has a very high bore axis and this produces a recoil effect that drives the weapon off target at a higher rate than the Glock. The 21 series is known for its soft shooting and its return to point of aim. The Springield has a longer reset that is less effective at quick strings. Your finger will have to move more and at a faster rate.

Reliability on the Springfield is also an issue when it comes to the grip safety. Fire the weapon from an improvised position, or support side only and you may see a problem with the grip safety. Some people have problems just locking the slide back because as they turn the weapon in their hand to lock it back it disengages the grip safety. As for the USP it has a double/single firing system that I feel requires additional training. I have a lot of friends who tell me just thumb cock it, and the trigger is fine, but those in my line of work just don't operate like that. You must be proficient with all firing modes and the double action trigger is slower and less accurate than the Glock trigger. As for the safety/decocker if you carry it concealed it is something extra to snag, and god forbid it is like my Beretta and likes to slip onto safe. You have to train to sweep those levers to make sure they are always ready to go. You could replace the entire thing out for an LEM trigger but HK support really is lacking. They are getting better but they are a real pain. If any of those little parts break, or wear, your weapon is going to be down and having to deal with HKI just sucks. If the Glock breaks just go to Brownells and order three of the part that broke or is wearing out for twenty bucks plus shipping.

That all being said we still have price, and the weapons system concept. Price is easy. You can find used Glocks for around 400-450, easy depending on what you want. Every company makes a product for Glock, and they are generally stocked better than HK, and Springfield. The aftermarket piece you want for your Springfield may be made by a company and sold by Brownells, but it probably won't be kept in as large a supply as Glock parts. Magazines can be had for anywhere around 15 - a max of 30 dollars. And there were a ton of them sold before the ban so there is a higher likelyhood of having them. XD wasn't even around, and HK's had always been 50 dollars a pop. Holsters and aftermarket accessories also fall into Glocks favor. All of the local shops will stock Glock items because more agencies and private companies carry them. You will always be able to walk into Proforce and find a Glock holster, but try find an HK USP 45. Sometimes it can be a real pain.

Say you want to jump onto the mounted light fad. Every company makes their lights ready to go for the Glock rail, and most companies make holster for them as well. Good luck finding the USP light as well as the holster. Same with the XD light holster. If five officer's buy an xd with a light you can pretty much be sure they also bought all of the regions supply of holsters with light option.

As for family/weapon system concept, when you purchase a Glock firearm you are purchasing not a single firearm. You are buying into a weapons system. It works better with the smaller calibers of Glocks but the concept still applies. If you buy a Glock 21sf your magazines, light and holster will work with the compact Glock firearm. Your trigger system, slide lock, and magazine release system will be the same. Your aftermarket parts will also apply. If you bought into the smaller calibers you can use the same holster whether you start with a 9mm or move on to the 40sw. It is incredibly versatile. Departments only have to buy one style of holster between the 9's and the 40's.

If you get the bug, the other options can work, but for the price, purchase a Glock 21sf with the regular magazine release and Glock light rail. They have super strong finish, and will last many more rounds than most people can afford. If it breaks, call Glock. If you get bored you can sell it for near what you paid for it minus a hundred bucks or so, or if you are a law enforcement officer you could possibly use "Swap a Glock" to uptrade to a larger caliber or different model.

It's late. Good luck with your purchase.

mqidwai
01-20-2009, 12:15 PM
HK hands down. as long as it fits your hand comfortabley. The HK has a sightly larger grip due to the double stack mag. But between the three HK hands down. It will shoot FMJ HP ReLoads target rounds no problem. It feeds more reliable than most 1911's.

1919A4
01-20-2009, 8:54 PM
I have owned all three of them. Its really really a hard choice. If I had to choose I would say glock for its simplicity and reliability.

devildog999
01-20-2009, 9:12 PM
XD!!!

Gryff
01-21-2009, 7:33 AM
Reliability on the Springfield is also an issue when it comes to the grip safety. Fire the weapon from an improvised position, or support side only and you may see a problem with the grip safety. Some people have problems just locking the slide back because as they turn the weapon in their hand to lock it back it disengages the grip safety.

Cyamate had a good post, but I think that the quote above is completely incorrect (despite his professional experience). I've put 15,000-20,000 rounds downrange with my three XDs over the past several years. To date, I have never encountered any kind of malfunction relating to the grip safety whatsoever. Nor have I known anyone who had that type of failure.

As a matter of fact, I can't shoot 1911s reliably because my grip when I draw from a holster is so high that it actually pushes the grip safety on rather than deactivating it. Never had anything remotely like that happen with the XD, including a LOT of time shooting with my support-hand or strong-hand only.

I actually think the grip is superior to the Glock's not only because of the grip angle and the safety, but because I have never seen anyone limp-wrist an XD into a failure to fire, while I have seen it all the time with Glocks. True, it isn't too much of a problem once you know how to grip a Glock, but it can still cause a fatal problem if you are forced, as Cyamate stated, to "(f)ire the weapon from an improvised position" (ironic since he used this as a point against the XD).

It is true that a noob can initially have a problem locking the slide back as Cyamate mentioned, but that is only because you have to compress the grip safety to be able to pull the slide back. This is a noob-only problem and is not an issue once you know about it.

Glocks win on the parts issue and a shorter factory trigger reset, but I think they loose on pointability, grip ergonomics, limp-wristing problem, and kaboom issues. Still good guns, but I easily prefer the XD over them.

ar15barrels
01-21-2009, 7:55 AM
It is true that a noob can initially have a problem locking the slide back as Cyamate mentioned, but that is only because you have to compress the grip safety to be able to pull the slide back. This is a noob-only problem and is not an issue once you know about it.

The bold statement also applies to limp wristing of glocks.
I shoot mine from many "improvised" positions and never run into a problem.