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freshdesigns@hotmail.com
10-20-2007, 8:30 AM
What are the laws regarding knife carry? Are folders legal as long as it's not concealed? What about FIXED blades? Are there blade length limitations?

shin_en
10-20-2007, 8:38 AM
http://www.equalccw.com/knifelaw.html#SECTION%20TWO

Patriot
10-20-2007, 9:09 AM
The website mentioned above is a good place to start.

I am reasonably familiar with knife laws at a state level, but YMMV, IANAL, IMO, etc. Is there a specific knife or knives in question? Also be aware that local regulations may differ.

What are the laws regarding knife carry? Are folders legal as long as it's not concealed? What about FIXED blades? Are there blade length limitations?

There are a few general sections, such as 12020 (illegal weapons, "dirk and dagger" [read fixed blade] concealed carry = illegal), 653K (switchblades), and the pertinent 'you can't carry X here' laws (educational institutions, etc.). leginfo.ca.gov is a good reference resource for the actual text of laws.

Folder legality may be regulated at a local level. Check your local laws!

At a state level, provided that the folder is not carried open + concealed (dirk & dagger), is not one of the illegal knife types in 12020, does not fall under switchblade definition in 653K (NOT as simple as it sounds), and is not carried in restricted areas (also some obscure Business Code stuff that applies to certain workers/worksites), is not brandished, etc., you should be good. That's kind of vague, but without specifics....

freshdesigns@hotmail.com
10-20-2007, 9:16 AM
Man I hate legal-speak. Gives me a headache when I read it! ;) I'll try and get through it.

Patriot
10-20-2007, 9:40 AM
Possession & Street Carry:

California State Code – Penal Code Section(s) 12020
(a) Any person in this state who does any of the following is punishable by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year or in the state prison:
(1) Manufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports into the state, keeps for sale, or offers or exposes for sale, or who gives, lends, or possesses... any ballistic knife, any nunchaku, any metal knuckles, any belt buckle knife, any leaded cane, any shuriken, any lipstick case knife, any cane sword, any shobi-zue, any air gauge knife, any writing pen knife, or any instrument or weapon of the kind commonly known as a blackjack, slungshot, billy, sandclub, sap, or sandbag... [Note: this is the paragraph covering what you cannot own at all]
(4) Carries concealed upon his or her person any dirk or dagger. [Note: see below for definition(s)]
(24) As used in this section, a "dirk" or "dagger" means a knife or other instrument with or without a handguard that is capable of ready use as a stabbing weapon that may inflict great bodily injury or death. A nonlocking folding knife, a folding knife that is not prohibited by Section 653k, or a pocketknife is capable of ready use as a stabbing weapon that may inflict great bodily injury or death only if the blade of the knife is exposed and locked into position.(24)(d) Knives carried in sheaths which are worn openly suspended from the waist of the wearer are not concealed within the meaning of this section.
Summary: No fixed blade or open folding knives may be carried concealed, however, open carry in a sheath attached to the belt is legal.Note: Any folding knife legal under 653k carried (either openly or concealed) in a closed position is not ‘readily available’ according to 12020 24 and therefore cannot be considered a “dirk or dagger.”
Switchblades:

California State Code – Penal Code Section(s) 653k
Every person who possesses in the passenger's or driver's area of any motor vehicle in any public place or place open to the public, carries upon his or her person, and every person who sells, offers for sale, exposes for sale, loans, transfers, or gives to any other person a switchblade knife having a blade two or more inches in length is guilty of a misdemeanor. For the purposes of this section, "switchblade knife" means a knife having the appearance of a pocketknife and includes a spring-blade knife, snap-blade knife, gravity knife or any other
similar type knife, the blade or blades of which are two or more inches in length and which can be released automatically by a flick of a button, pressure on the handle, flip of the wrist or other mechanical device, or is released by the weight of the blade or by any type of mechanism whatsoever. "Switchblade knife" does not include a knife that opens with one hand utilizing thumb pressure applied solely to the blade of the knife or a thumb stud attached to the blade, provided that the knife has a detent or other mechanism that provides resistance that must be overcome in opening the blade, or that biases the blade back toward its closed position. For purposes of this section, passenger's or driver's area" means that part of a motor vehicle which is designed to carry the driver and passengers, including any interior compartment or space therein.
Summary: No fixed blade or open folding knives may be concealed upon an individual’s person pursuant to 12020 24, but places no other restrictions on the possession of any legal knife within a motor vehicle.
Note: The length of a “switchblade knife’s” blade must be less than 2 inches.

General Summary: Pursuant to 12020 and 653k, folding knives of any length not prohibited by either statute may be carried (in a folded position) either openly or concealed with no restrictions except in such areas as are designated by law.

My take:

Fixed blades are supposed to be legal to carry openly (which may result in hassle) but are definitely illegal to carry concealed. Be careful of untucked shirts, jackets, etc. Same goes for open folders that are carried concealed (just closing a loophole here, nothing special).

Illegal knife types include any throwing stars, disguised knives, sword canes, and belt buckle knives.

Automatic knives are illegal. Lockback folders are good to go. Liner locks or non-locking folding knives need to have a detent or bias toward closure. In a nutshell, the most common detent is a little ball and indent on the blade/frame that provides resistance (however slight) intended to keep the knife closed. 'Bias toward closure' means knives that'll start to close on their own when partly folded (like lockbacks do). Most mid to high end folders by companies such as Buck, Gerber, CRKT, Cold Steel, Spyderco, Boker, Benchmade, Emerson, etc. will have one of these features. Economy knives by S&W, M-tech, etc. may or may not. Cheap crap knives from china, mexico, etc. probably will not.

EDIT: Actually, locally made sub 2" automatics are fine.

Off the top of my head, there are carry/possession restrictions at [some or all] public meetings, schools (K-12 and college differ), airports, some gov buildings (in practicality that means all of them). General rules, but they should keep one out of trouble.

Local laws are where you have to watch out for further restrictions. I know LA and Riverside have special laws. Quite a few places do.

tyrist
10-20-2007, 9:47 AM
Many cities have local ordinances reguarding knife carry. Generally speaking a folding knife which is kept folded and in your pocket is legal. However I do believe there are a few Municiple codes reguarding carrying a folding knife with specified blade lengths.

Patriot
10-20-2007, 9:54 AM
A 2.5-3" blade folding knife carried concealed is legal in most places.

When it comes to legalities, though, the devil's in the details. That's why it is so important to be familiar with local laws.

MudCamper
10-20-2007, 1:33 PM
A 2.5-3" blade folding knife carried concealed is legal in most places.

Any length folder is legal, concealed. Schools and some other excpetions limit length to 2.5".

SteveH
10-20-2007, 1:51 PM
One CPC section to watch out for is the prohibition on lock blade knivers on K-12 school grounds. Its a misdemeanor and applies on all areas of the school campus and even when school is not in session.

I see adults using school grounds to walk their dogs, or shoot hoops after hours all the time. I wonder how many of them are unknowingly breaking the law buy having a Spyderco clipped to their pockets.

freshdesigns@hotmail.com
10-20-2007, 2:06 PM
So just about ANY folder is a "lock blade" correct?

pnkssbtz
10-20-2007, 2:50 PM
Be careful.

Orange county PD has arresting people not too long ago under 653(k) for knives that are specifically exempt from 653(k). The law means nothing when an officer makes up his mind he wants to arrest you for something.

This makes it important to know the laws for knives.

metalhead357
10-20-2007, 6:19 PM
Be careful.

Orange county PD has arresting people not too long ago under 653(k) for knives that are specifically exempt from 653(k). The law means nothing when an officer makes up his mind he wants to arrest you for something.

This makes it important to know the laws for knives.

And/or the cash/funds to hire a decent attorney knowlegable in such matters.........

YEP. Its crazy living here; dam near need a law degree just to know......not even live....your freedoms:cool:

tpliquid1
10-31-2008, 1:24 PM
old thread i know, but can we open carry knife on a backpack? and in a county park ?

Librarian
10-31-2008, 3:26 PM
One CPC section to watch out for is the prohibition on lock blade knivers on K-12 school grounds. Its a misdemeanor and applies on all areas of the school campus and even when school is not in session.

I see adults using school grounds to walk their dogs, or shoot hoops after hours all the time. I wonder how many of them are unknowingly breaking the law buy having a Spyderco clipped to their pockets.
Wobbler, I think: 626.10. (a) Any person, ... , who brings or possesses any dirk, dagger, ice pick, knife having a blade longer than 2 1/2 inches, folding knife with a blade that locks into place, a razor with an unguarded blade, ... , upon the grounds of, or within, any public or private school providing instruction in kindergarten or any of grades 1 to 12, inclusive, is guilty of a public offense, punishable by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year, or by imprisonment in the state prison. Or does it need to be a year or more to be a felony? Ah, here it is - PC 17 17. (a) A felony is a crime which is punishable with death or by
imprisonment in the state prison. Every other crime or public
offense is a misdemeanor except those offenses that are classified as
infractions.
(b) When a crime is punishable, in the discretion of the court, by
imprisonment in the state prison or by fine or imprisonment in the
county jail, it is a misdemeanor for all purposes under the following
circumstances:
(1) After a judgment imposing a punishment other than imprisonment
in the state prison.
(2) When the court, upon committing the defendant to the Youth
Authority, designates the offense to be a misdemeanor.
(3) When the court grants probation to a defendant without
imposition of sentence and at the time of granting probation, or on
application of the defendant or probation officer thereafter, the
court declares the offense to be a misdemeanor.
(4) When the prosecuting attorney files in a court having
jurisdiction over misdemeanor offenses a complaint specifying that
the offense is a misdemeanor, unless the defendant at the time of his
or her arraignment or plea objects to the offense being made a
misdemeanor, in which event the complaint shall be amended to charge
the felony and the case shall proceed on the felony complaint.
(5) When, at or before the preliminary examination or prior to
filing an order pursuant to Section 872, the magistrate determines
that the offense is a misdemeanor, in which event the case shall
proceed as if the defendant had been arraigned on a misdemeanor
complaint.
If the court says it's a misdemeanor, it is.

E Pluribus Unum
10-31-2008, 4:17 PM
Many cities have local ordinances reguarding knife carry. Generally speaking a folding knife which is kept folded and in your pocket is legal. However I do believe there are a few Municiple codes reguarding carrying a folding knife with specified blade lengths.

Local ordinances would be pre-empted by state law.

State law has no general restriction on blade length. One can carry a 22" Katana openly on his belt and it is legal.

If someone made a 22" folding Katana, it could be carried concealed while folded.

Patriot
10-31-2008, 4:34 PM
Local ordinances would be pre-empted by state law.

Would it? I don't think the firearms situation is analogous because of the specific preemption involved:

http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/dwcl/53701.php

GOVERNMENT CODE SECTION
State Preemption of Firearm Regulation

* 53071. It is the intention of the Legislature to occupy the whole field of regulation of the registration or licensing of commercially manufactured firearms as encompassed by the provisions of the Penal Code, and such provisions shall be exclusive of all local regulations, relating to registration or licensing of commercially manufactured firearms, by any political subdivision as defined in Section 1721 of the Labor Code.
* 53071.5 By the enforcement of this section, the Legislature occupies the whole field of regulation of the manufacture, sale, or possession of imitation firearms, as defined in Section 12250 of the Penal Code, and that section shall preempt and be exclusive of all regulations relating to the manufacture, sale, or possession of imitation firearms, including regulations governing the manufacture, sale, or possession of BB devices and air rifles described in subdivision (g) of Section 12001 of the Penal Code.

tombinghamthegreat
10-31-2008, 4:36 PM
Its no suprise this comes up before holloween, someone will be carrying a knife. I for one am open carrying my bowie knife on my tatical vest and my standard carrying knife in my pocket....

Barbarossa
10-31-2008, 4:49 PM
I've always gone by this:

Folder blade under 4", stick it in your pocket. (CRKT M16 - Blade: Length: 3.875)

Folder with blade + 4", why?

Fixed blade, carry in "handle down" position. And mind your shirt. (Expose the handle. Tuck shirt into area between blade/sheath area and body, if worried about LE around))

Otherwise close mouth.

Take care for unintended "gravity knives". loctite.

I don't know if this is legal, but I've never had an issue.



1. PENAL CODE SECTION 12550-12556
2. PENAL CODE SECTION 142-181
3. PENAL CODE SECTION 12020-12040
171b. (a) Any person who brings or possesses within any state or
local public building or at any meeting required to be open to the
public pursuant to Chapter 9 (commencing with Section 54950) of Part
1 of Division 2 of Title 5 of, or Article 9 (commencing with Section
11120) of Chapter 1 of Part 1 of Division 3 of Title 2 of, the
Government Code, any of the following is guilty of a public offense
punishable by imprisonment in a county jail for not more than one
year, or in the state prison:
(3) Any knife with a blade length in excess of four inches, the
blade of which is fixed or is capable of being fixed in an unguarded
position by the use of one or two hands.
http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/calawquery?codesection=pen&codebody=171b&hits=20

MudCamper
10-31-2008, 5:48 PM
Folder with blade + 4", why?[/URL]

Why? Because bigger is better. :)

Seriously though, you advocate not going above 4 inches because that limits you from government buildings. Why not advocate 2.5 inches because that's OK in some schools. (FYI most schools have rules against all knives, in addition to the PC.) IMO carry as big and bad a blade that you legally can where ever you can. CA won't let us (most of us) carry guns, so take every advantage we do have.

Patriot
10-31-2008, 5:53 PM
Why? Because bigger is better. :)

Seriously though, you advocate not going above 4 inches because that limits you from government buildings. Why not advocate 2.5 inches because that's OK in some schools. (FYI most schools have rules against all knives, in addition to the PC.) IMO carry as big and bad a blade that you legally can where ever you can. CA won't let us (most of us) carry guns, so take every advantage we do have.

Is a big knife likely to be advantageous compared to a small knife? Just food for thought. :)

Platitudes about the .22 you have on you being better than the .45 you left at home might be applicable.

Also, I've found for practical tasks that a short blade is usually more handy. (I don't know whether this would be the case in a SD situation.)

Dont Tread on Me
10-31-2008, 6:00 PM
The law means nothing when an officer makes up his mind he wants to arrest you for something.

True, but it means a lot when it comes to convicting you of something.

Is a big knife likely to be advantageous compared to a small knife?

Good question. YMMV, but here is my experience. A small knife is easier for me to maneuver when grappling and much easier to retain. In a stand off situation I find a larger knife gives me more reach. A longer blade also lets your reach out and touch someone in places a small blade just won't get to. The best way to answer is to work this with some training parters and training knives. Tom Sotis provides the best training I've taken (http://www.edgedweaponsolutions.com/)

MudCamper
10-31-2008, 6:04 PM
Is a big knife likely to be advantageous compared to a small knife? Just food for thought. :)

Also, I've found for practical tasks that a short blade is usually more handy. (I don't know whether this would be the case in a SD situation.)

Definitely true that a small blade is more utilitarian. That's why I carry a 2.5 inch SAK in addition to my 4 inch CRKT. Now is a smaller knife better in a knife fight? I'd argue no, for several reasons. First, a big knife looks scary, and maybe you could intimidate your foe into fleeing. Second, the larger blade has a longer reach. Third, the longer blade might penetrate deeper and therefore stop your opponent faster.

Meplat
11-01-2008, 12:26 AM
So, I don't see a lot about double-edged blades, does it make a difference? I am not much of a knife guy but I know a little about knife fighting techniques and tactics. I carry a Buck folding hunter in my pocket as an every day knock around utility blade. My SHTF knife is double edged with an 8" blade. Could I legally open carry this beast?

I know local laws may vary, I'm just inquiring about state law.

GuyW
11-01-2008, 12:43 AM
So, I don't see a lot about double-edged blades, does it make a difference? I am not much of a knife guy but I know a little about knife fighting techniques and tactics. I carry a Buck folding hunter in my pocket as an every day knock around utility blade. My SHTF knife is double edged with an 8" blade. Could I legally open carry this beast?

I know local laws may vary, I'm just inquiring about state law.

Ummm, to my knowledge double-edged blades are called daggers in CA law, and are illegal. Someone straighten me out.

.

ke6guj
11-01-2008, 1:16 AM
Ummm, to my knowledge double-edged blades are called daggers in CA law, and are illegal. Someone straighten me out.

.

Read the code, daggers are not illegal in CA. There is not prohibition on ownership of a double-edged blade.

Carrying a concealed dirk or dagger is prohibited.

As long as it is carried openly, it is not illegal to carry a dirk or dagger.

leelaw
11-01-2008, 1:21 AM
Read the code, daggers are not illegal in CA. There is not prohibition on ownership of a double-edged blade.

Carrying a concealed dirk or dagger is prohibited.

As long as it is carried openly, it is not illegal to carry a dirk or dagger.

Additionally, a double-edged knife is not automatically a "dirk or dagger" - it is not a requisite. They really should have just worded it "a concealed fixed-blade, edged weapon..." and we wouldn't have the "a dirk has two edges" misconception that seems so popular.

Mulay El Raisuli
11-01-2008, 5:49 AM
Local ordinances would be pre-empted by state law.

State law has no general restriction on blade length. One can carry a 22" Katana openly on his belt and it is legal.

If someone made a 22" folding Katana, it could be carried concealed while folded.

I'm not so sure. I was told by an Oceanside cop that carrying a knife openly (I was wearing a Buck Mod. 120 at the time) was illegal. I went to chat with the city atty. about this & he told me that their local ordinance (20.28, if memory serves) made the carrying of any "dangerous or deadly weapon" illegal. This was a while ago, & I had no desire to push the issue, so I just stopped carrying the thing. Still, in theory, edged weapons don't seem to enjoy the state exemption that firearms do.

The Raisuli

sb_pete
11-01-2008, 10:34 AM
Read the code, daggers are not illegal in CA. There is not prohibition on ownership of a double-edged blade.

Carrying a concealed dirk or dagger is prohibited.

As long as it is carried openly, it is not illegal to carry a dirk or dagger.

Yeah, I really wish this was clarified too. On three different occasions I had to argue with LEO's about a double edged Gerber MKII I used to own (definitely a dagger). One time, they had searched my trunk (consented - long story) and found the knife in my camping pack with other camping gear. They actually told me it was legal to own but that I couldn't take it anywhere :TFH::rolleyes:. I'm really not sure what they even thought they meant by that - I managed to convince them not to confiscate it, but they never conceded I had any right to possess it.

Somebody please correct me if I'm wrong here but:
1. As far as I know, it is legal to open carry a fixed blade knife/dirk/dagger by CA law but local ordinances may supercede that.

2. It is illegal to conceal such a blade on your person b CA law.

3. I am unsure about the car thing. Do you need to carry it in the trunk or something? Is it ok in the car as long as it is not concealed? Is it legal to have it open carry strapped on your belt, but illegal to have sitting on the passenger seat? I don't expect the law to make sense, but hopefully somebody can point out the relevant PC - my eyes glaze over pretty quick when I try to read that stuff.

Thanks guys,
-Pete

Beelzy
11-01-2008, 11:06 AM
#1 Yes as long as its NOT concealed.

#2 Yes, see #1

#3 The trunk of the car thing is for the Illegal switchblades we are not
allowed to own (but somehow manage to get.) It is aslo LEGAL to
keep them at your house. Funny how that works huh??

leelaw
11-01-2008, 12:39 PM
3. I am unsure about the car thing. Do you need to carry it in the trunk or something? Is it ok in the car as long as it is not concealed? Is it legal to have it open carry strapped on your belt, but illegal to have sitting on the passenger seat? I don't expect the law to make sense, but hopefully somebody can point out the relevant PC - my eyes glaze over pretty quick when I try to read that stuff.


If the dirk or dagger is concealed upon your PERSON, then it is illegal.

It can be concealed under your seat and it's not a crime, but if a LEO finds it, you'll be asked some questions about it.

formerTexan
11-01-2008, 12:56 PM
what about "assisted open" knives? are these legal to carry with you (concealed or otherwise)?

motorhead
11-01-2008, 1:12 PM
i generally don't worry about leo's misinterpreting knife carry laws. i am not the least afraid of a night in jail and will make the arresting officers life a legal nightmare from that day forward.
i believe that city of oceanside code is the same one they've used to harass legal open carry. i would look for that one to be changing very soon.

MudCamper
11-01-2008, 1:22 PM
what about "assisted open" knives? are these legal to carry with you (concealed or otherwise)?

Assisted openers are OK as long as they have a thumb stud and have a "tendancy toward closure", or some similar language, meaning, you have to force it past a certain point before the spring takes over.

MudCamper
11-01-2008, 1:29 PM
This was already posted once in this thread, but the link is now dead.

Here is another copy of it:

California Knife Laws: A Comprehensive Guide (http://www.ninehundred.net/~equalccw/knifelaw.html)

Everyone with CA knife law questions should read this.

tombinghamthegreat
11-01-2008, 3:53 PM
If the dirk or dagger is concealed upon your PERSON, then it is illegal.

It can be concealed under your seat and it's not a crime, but if a LEO finds it, you'll be asked some questions about it.

lets say you have a duffle bag with a dagger in it, is it concealed on your person or a grey area?

Shane916
11-01-2008, 3:58 PM
lets say you have a duffle bag with a dagger in it, is it concealed on your person or a grey area?

In your vehicle or on your persons?

tombinghamthegreat
11-01-2008, 4:03 PM
In your vehicle or on your persons?

Carrying, like walking down the street. I am assuming that would be considered on your persons.

Librarian
11-01-2008, 5:21 PM
Carrying, like walking down the street. I am assuming that would be considered on your persons.

That would be my guess. I am aware of no clear legal distinction between in your pocket and in a backpack or other carry-container if you're actually carrying it.

Ironchef
11-01-2008, 6:17 PM
Assisted blades = ok..with the thumb stud or pressure applied to the blade to open. Not a switchblade (which is an "automatic" opener) because it doesn't utilize a switch or mechanism that completely opens the knife from it's closed position and have manual pressure on the blade.

Legal = cCknRPBvln4

vandal
11-01-2008, 6:46 PM
This is so much crap. So because my church also has a private school on premises, I can't carry my Spyderco Delica to the worship service.

Decoligny
11-01-2008, 8:08 PM
This is so much crap. So because my church also has a private school on premises, I can't carry my Spyderco Delica to the worship service.

That is correct. Just like you can't open carry a firearm to the worship service.

626.10. (a) Any person, except a duly appointed peace officer as defined in Chapter 4.5 (commencing with Section 830) of Title 3 of Part 2, a full-time paid peace officer of another state or the federal government who is carrying out official duties while in this state, a person summoned by any officer to assist in making arrests or preserving the peace while the person is actually engaged in assisting any officer, or a member of the military forces of this state or the United States who is engaged in the performance of his or her duties, who brings or possesses any dirk, dagger, ice pick, knife having a blade longer than 2 1/2 inches, folding knife with a blade that locks into place, a razor with an unguarded blade, a taser, or a stun gun, as defined in subdivision (a) of Section 244.5, any instrument that expels a metallic projectile such as a BB or a pellet, through the force of air pressure, CO2 pressure, or spring action, or any spot marker gun, upon the grounds of, or within, any public or private school providing instruction in kindergarten or any of grades 1 to 12, inclusive, is guilty of a public offense, punishable by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year, or by imprisonment in the state prison.

Moonclip
11-02-2008, 4:15 AM
Read the code, daggers are not illegal in CA. There is not prohibition on ownership of a double-edged blade.

Carrying a concealed dirk or dagger is prohibited.

As long as it is carried openly, it is not illegal to carry a dirk or dagger.

How about concealed carrying a double edged non switchblade folder in the closed position?

Moonclip
11-02-2008, 4:18 AM
Be careful.

Orange county PD has arresting people not too long ago under 653(k) for knives that are specifically exempt from 653(k). The law means nothing when an officer makes up his mind he wants to arrest you for something.

This makes it important to know the laws for knives.
More info on this would be appreciate? They stopped doing so? What type of knives? Anyone get sued?

tpliquid1
11-03-2008, 10:07 AM
so we can carry fixed blade in a blade holder on backpack no problem?

vandal
11-03-2008, 11:36 AM
Screw it -- I'm getting OC and a taser and duct taping them together. If the ingredients are right I should be able to create an electric flame thrower.

That is correct. Just like you can't open carry a firearm to the worship service.

Outlaw Josey Wales
11-03-2008, 3:16 PM
CA Penal Code Section(s) 12020
(a) Any person in this state who does any of the following is punishable by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year or in the state prison:
(1) Manufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports into the state, keeps for sale, or offers or exposes for sale, or who gives, lends, or possesses... any ballistic knife, any nunchaku, any metal knuckles, any belt buckle knife, any leaded cane, any shuriken, any lipstick case knife, any cane sword, any shobi-zue, any air gauge knife, any writing pen knife, or any instrument or weapon of the kind commonly known as a blackjack, slungshot, billy, sandclub, sap, or sandbag...


Leaded cane! :eek: What about a Cold Steel Walking Stick with a stainless head? :confused:

http://www.coldsteel.com/citystick.html

Ballistic043
11-03-2008, 3:26 PM
the key here is, "unnaturally weighted". IMO, if the walking stick happens to be made of steel, and the head is heavy but not un-natural to the rest of the stick, grey area at most. then again, thats just my opinion on that.


has anyone had experience with the kershaw "Blur" or other speed-safe line of knives? one of my LEO friends showed me how it worked and couldnt believe how similar it worked to a switch blade. but its legal here-, slight design differences. i am definitely going to get one after seeing how nicely it is made, and how easily it is deployed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IS2dRgZtlDM&feature=related

Barbarossa
11-03-2008, 3:29 PM
Why? Because bigger is better. :)

Seriously though, you advocate not going above 4 inches because that limits you from government buildings. Why not advocate 2.5 inches because that's OK in some schools. (FYI most schools have rules against all knives, in addition to the PC.) IMO carry as big and bad a blade that you legally can where ever you can. CA won't let us (most of us) carry guns, so take every advantage we do have.

I will not carry larger then 4". I have many which are smaller. I carried a knife everyday I was at a C.S.U. (for longer then I'd like to admit) which was longer then 2.5".

It fell with in my realm of acceptable risk.

[I've done dumb stuff like set the courthouse metal detector off going to pay a parking ticket. Hence my greater then 4" folder aversion.]

Outlaw Josey Wales
11-03-2008, 5:32 PM
the key here is, "unnaturally weighted". IMO, if the walking stick happens to be made of steel, and the head is heavy but not un-natural to the rest of the stick, grey area at most. then again, thats just my opinion on that.


Maybe one of those walking sticks sold in state parks that are made from old tree branches would be the way to go. Nothing too threatening looking about them. :rolleyes:

With a Constitutionally protected right like the Second Amendment isn't it outrageous that we have allowed politicians to reduce us to tree branches, two inch knives and watered down pepper spray for our safety!

CA_Libertarian
11-03-2008, 11:38 PM
I will not carry larger then 4". I have many which are smaller. I carried a knife everyday I was at a C.S.U. (for longer then I'd like to admit) which was longer then 2.5".

It fell with in my realm of acceptable risk.

[I've done dumb stuff like set the courthouse metal detector off going to pay a parking ticket. Hence my greater then 4" folder aversion.]

To my knowledge it is perfectly legal to carry any size folder on CSU campus. The rules different on K-12 campus than universities.

Moonclip
11-05-2008, 2:44 AM
To my knowledge it is perfectly legal to carry any size folder on CSU campus. The rules different on K-12 campus than universities.

True, legal on CA college campuses but I think I'd still keep it discreet and to myslef, I think school will harass you, maybe try to kick you out anyways, this needs to be further researched, anyone have any stories relatiing to this?

I did many times but kept the folding knife well concealed.

Librarian
11-05-2008, 10:34 AM
True, legal on CA college campuses but I think I'd still keep it discreet and to myslef, I think school will harass you, maybe try to kick you out anyways, this needs to be further researched, anyone have any stories relatiing to this?

I did many times but kept the folding knife well concealed.I did all the time; still do. But one of my friends is a CSU cop, and he said they'd not like me doing that.

TimG
11-05-2008, 11:22 AM
so we can carry fixed blade in a blade holder on backpack no problem?

I would like to know this also. I carry a 4" fixed with a double edge on my backpack strap, I've never been questioned on it but I'd rather be sure.
Never realy gave it much thought until now.

Moonclip
11-05-2008, 11:50 PM
I did all the time; still do. But one of my friends is a CSU cop, and he said they'd not like me doing that.

What would they legally or otherwise do about it?

Librarian
11-06-2008, 2:04 AM
What would they legally or otherwise do about it?
Legally they can ask me to leave and then do trespassing if I would resist.

Academically, could be in for some discipline.

Actually? Don't know what they'd try.

Moonclip
11-06-2008, 2:13 AM
Legally they can ask me to leave and then do trespassing if I would resist.

Academically, could be in for some discipline.

Actually? Don't know what they'd try.
Interesting, someone should register for a class and see what happens if walking around with a legal knife and breaking no laws. Could be a nice lawsuit for a hungry lawyer.

My local community college cops are pretty much mall ninjaish losers anyhow, no guns even.

Doheny
11-06-2008, 3:32 AM
To my knowledge it is perfectly legal to carry any size folder on CSU campus. The rules different on K-12 campus than universities.

Not true...same rules (yes, I know there is a differnce between UC and CSU but the same laws apply.)

http://www.police.uci.edu/safety/docs/weapons_prohibited.pdf

Ballistic043
11-06-2008, 5:41 AM
I would like to know this also. I carry a 4" fixed with a double edge on my backpack strap, I've never been questioned on it but I'd rather be sure.
Never realy gave it much thought until now.

double edged knives you should stray away from..

MudCamper
11-06-2008, 9:47 AM
double edged knives you should stray away from..

Why? As a self defense tool, it is superior. And they're not illegal.

Librarian
11-06-2008, 12:06 PM
Not true...same rules (yes, I know there is a differnce between UC and CSU but the same laws apply.)

http://www.police.uci.edu/safety/docs/weapons_prohibited.pdf
I believe CA_Libertarian was distinguishing between K-12 and college/university, not between CSU/UC.

And UCI police are wrong with "You can have a pocket knife, as long as the blade is not more than 2 1⁄2 inches long, it does not open automatically and has only one sharp edge. " The length limitation for UC applies to fixed-blades, exactly as the PC 626.10(b) they provide says. Folder length applies to K-12 only. Nothing anywhere talks about double-edge knives, so they're legal, and switch-blades can be only very small - less than 2 inches (PC 653k) - but they're otherwise legal.

Lot of misinformation in just one sentence there.

Librarian
11-07-2008, 2:47 AM
Interesting, someone should register for a class and see what happens if walking around with a legal knife and breaking no laws. Could be a nice lawsuit for a hungry lawyer.

My local community college cops are pretty much mall ninjaish losers anyhow, no guns even.
Did that for four years at CSUEB. My edc is a spyderco Rescue, the bright orange model. Other than my friend (we used to talk about guns) none of the officers mentioned it.

It's my opinion that in general they'll leave you alone unless you make them notice. Don't play mumblety-peg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mumblety_peg) in the library ...

JDay
11-07-2008, 5:46 AM
Legally they can ask me to leave and then do trespassing if I would resist.

Academically, could be in for some discipline.

Actually? Don't know what they'd try.


How could they arrest a student for trespassing on campus?

Librarian
11-07-2008, 1:07 PM
How could they arrest a student for trespassing on campus?The resist part I mentioned, as in no, I don't care to leave and no, I won't hand you my pocket knife. That would be pretty dumb if I wanted to remain a student at that institution.

For a violation of school rules, one can become a non-student in a very short span of time. That's quite different from being guilty of a crime, and the authority would be school/administrative rather than Penal Code/legal.

Moonclip
11-09-2008, 4:16 AM
Can the CA college legally say no knives that would otherwise be legal by CA law?

Librarian
11-09-2008, 11:03 AM
Can the CA college legally say no knives that would otherwise be legal by CA law?

They can say their staff and students can't have them on campus - penalty of firing or expulsion. They can ask others to leave. But they can't criminalize them, no.

lehn20
11-09-2008, 7:28 PM
Also remember, eventhough CA doesnt have a lenght requirement on folders. Cities like LA city (not LA county) have city ordinances for people living there. If I recall correct LA City has a 3'' max lenght on folders. However, if you dont reside there, you can pass through or go to and form with any lenght.

My EDCs are 3-4'' and my backup a is the Cold Steel Rahaj II which is 6''.

Discretion is the key. If you are squared away and not a wannabe, you will never get hassled. Also make sure you call it a utility knife if LEO asks, do NOT say it is for self-defense.

tombinghamthegreat
12-20-2008, 5:20 PM
Reviving an old thread yes but i was wondering if the open carry fixed blade limits applied to LA county or city. Also it appears ventura county has no laws on the matter but i was wondering about the hiking trails, could there be any laws open carrying knives(or firearms)?

_Odin_
12-20-2008, 8:37 PM
To the OP:

Basically, if it's a fixed blade and not concealed, there is no blade length restrictions. (note: a blade contained in a sheeth extending from the belt is considered open cary/not concealed and hence OK)

In theory, you could carry a full sized Samurai sword down the street if you wanted to :chris:

thinkinblue613
12-23-2008, 3:39 AM
I just picked up this folder knife and was wondering if I should conceal or open carry.

http://www.knife-depot.com/knife-156499.html?src=froogle&src1=kd&src2=gbase&utm_source=Froogle&utm_medium=Product%2BSearch%2BEngine

From what I've read, it is legal since folders don't have restriction on blade lengths. AND I have big hands so the blade is barely bigger (probably 2-4 mm) The only question I have is whether I should keep it concealed or open carried on my person?

Mulay El Raisuli
12-23-2008, 5:03 AM
To the OP:

Basically, if it's a fixed blade and not concealed, there is no blade length restrictions. (note: a blade contained in a sheeth extending from the belt is considered open cary/not concealed and hence OK)

In theory, you could carry a full sized Samurai sword down the street if you wanted to :chris:


As it happens, I have a full sized Samurai sword (along with a few others). Hmmm.

The Raisuli

Ballistic043
12-23-2008, 5:36 AM
I just picked up this folder knife and was wondering if I should conceal or open carry.

http://www.knife-depot.com/knife-156499.html?src=froogle&src1=kd&src2=gbase&utm_source=Froogle&utm_medium=Product%2BSearch%2BEngine

From what I've read, it is legal since folders don't have restriction on blade lengths. AND I have big hands so the blade is barely bigger (probably 2-4 mm) The only question I have is whether I should keep it concealed or open carried on my person?


take it from my advise. do-not-use-this-knife-for-self-defense

i have had several extreme-ops models where the blade refused to stay open. bearing pressure on the blade vertically can cause it to suddenly close and WILL eventually cause injury to your fingers.

ive had this happen on my tanto AND serrated model. they are good cheap knives. (did i mention, huge grip handle?) not safe though for anything other than tooling around.

as far as legal, you can carry it concealed or open carry it. just not in the open position

since the knife is huge and has no belt clip you will probably need to "OC" it with the provided sheath. or slip it into your back pocket.

BTW; big 5 usually sells those for alot less. i got both mine for less than 35 bucks out the door

thinkinblue613
12-23-2008, 6:28 AM
take it from my advise. do-not-use-this-knife-for-self-defense

i have had several extreme-ops models where the blade refused to stay open. bearing pressure on the blade vertically can cause it to suddenly close and WILL eventually cause injury to your fingers.

ive had this happen on my tanto AND serrated model. they are good cheap knives. (did i mention, huge grip handle?) not safe though for anything other than tooling around.

as far as legal, you can carry it concealed or open carry it. just not in the open position

since the knife is huge and has no belt clip you will probably need to "OC" it with the provided sheath. or slip it into your back pocket.

BTW; big 5 usually sells those for alot less. i got both mine for less than 35 bucks out the door

Thanks for the advice. I picked up the blade for $15 from my local Big 5. I'm hoping to not have to use it for self defense but as my "utility" knife. From what I've noticed though, its seems to be a sturdy thick knife IMO.

And thanks for letting me know about the folding knife law. I wanted to double and triple check because cops nowadays are very "strict" when it comes to weapons.

Beelzy
12-23-2008, 10:01 AM
C'mon guys, carry a decent knife and it will never fail you when you need
it most.

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c82/beelzy/Sebbie1911a.jpg

Ballistic043
12-23-2008, 10:28 AM
Thanks for the advice. I picked up the blade for $15 from my local Big 5. I'm hoping to not have to use it for self defense but as my "utility" knife. From what I've noticed though, its seems to be a sturdy thick knife IMO.

And thanks for letting me know about the folding knife law. I wanted to double and triple check because cops nowadays are very "strict" when it comes to weapons.

it really is a good utility knife. but yea like i said, the liner lock is unsafe for SD use.

scr83jp
12-23-2008, 11:21 AM
I had idiot probationers walk in to my office carrying illegal double edged knives in a sheath with a parent,when I pointed out it was a felony to be in possession the parent countered she bought it for him,when I seized it they got huffy so I called in a police officer & booked the jerk for PC 12020 Felony Possession of A Dangerous Weapon.Some just have to learn the hard way.

MudCamper
12-23-2008, 11:36 AM
I had idiot probationers walk in to my office carrying illegal double edged knives in a sheath with a parent,when I pointed out it was a felony to be in possession the parent countered she bought it for him,when I seized it they got huffy so I called in a police officer & booked the jerk for PC 12020 Felony Possession of A Dangerous Weapon.Some just have to learn the hard way.

"Double edged" knives are not illegal. He didn't violate 12020 if it wasn't concealed. Was the probationer prohibited from possessing knives as a condition of his probation?

Decoligny
12-23-2008, 12:08 PM
I had idiot probationers walk in to my office carrying illegal double edged knives in a sheath with a parent,when I pointed out it was a felony to be in possession the parent countered she bought it for him,when I seized it they got huffy so I called in a police officer & booked the jerk for PC 12020 Felony Possession of A Dangerous Weapon.Some just have to learn the hard way.

Most people simply assume that the word "DAGGER" = "DOUBLE EDGED".

Not according to the PC 12020 definition.

(24) As used in this section, a "dirk" or "dagger" means a knife
or other instrument with or without a handguard that is capable of
ready use as a stabbing weapon that may inflict great bodily injury
or death. A nonlocking folding knife, a folding knife that is not
prohibited by Section 653k, or a pocketknife is capable of ready use
as a stabbing weapon that may inflict great bodily injury or death
only if the blade of the knife is exposed and locked into position.

NOWHERE in California Penal Code is "Double Edged" even addressed.

MudCamper
12-23-2008, 12:12 PM
Most people simply assume that the word "DAGGER" = "DOUBLE EDGED".

Not according to the PC 12020 definition.

NOWHERE in California Penal Code is "Double Edged" even addressed.

Plus a "dagger or dirk" has to be concealed to be a violation:

12020 (4) Carries concealed upon his or her person any dirk or dagger.

tombinghamthegreat
12-23-2008, 12:22 PM
I had idiot probationers walk in to my office carrying illegal double edged knives in a sheath with a parent,when I pointed out it was a felony to be in possession the parent countered she bought it for him,when I seized it they got huffy so I called in a police officer & booked the jerk for PC 12020 Felony Possession of A Dangerous Weapon.Some just have to learn the hard way.

Double edged knives are not illegal, alot of people on the forum have those type of knives. Why does this double edge FUD keep appearing on this forum?

Librarian
12-23-2008, 1:17 PM
Double edged knives are not illegal, alot of people on the forum have those type of knives. Why does this double edge FUD keep appearing on this forum?
Most folks here ought to know better, but it appears everywhere; several of our Least Favorite catalog retailers who Shall Remain Un-Named have tagged anything double-edged as 'unable to ship to CA' - even things I can buy at Big 5.

FUD works. :(

N6ATF
12-23-2008, 2:15 PM
As was mentioned earlier, there's no distinction between single- or double-edge. Just if you conceal a fixed-blade, it's illegal. Sure, Big 5 can sell these neck chain knives (http://big5sportinggoods.shoplocal.com/big5/Default.aspx?action=browsepagedetail&storeid=2504023&rapid=639893&pagenumber=2&listingid=-2090472174), but how many people are going to be wearing them outside their clothing? On COPS a few weeks ago, a SDSD deputy arrested a guy wearing one of these just a few doors down from Big 5 in Spring Valley. How ironic is it that they are advertised for sale there a few months later?

http://downlode.org/Creative/Writing/Notebook/Illustrations/itsatrap.jpg

gunsmith
12-23-2008, 9:38 PM
the cop said "you're getting charged for concealed carry of the knife"
The surprised tweaker asked "if you can see it, how does that make it concealed"

dreyna14
12-23-2008, 10:13 PM
"if you can see it, how does that make it concealed"

Exactly. It shouldn't be difficult to get off those charges. There's nothing in the law that states that the blade has to be visible. As long as it looks like a knife, not a blade in a cane or something similar, and it's outside of clothing the necklace should be perfectly legal.

N6ATF
12-24-2008, 1:00 AM
The cop only saw it once he removed it from under the shirt. It was concealed. The necklace beads peeking over his neckline did not mean the knife dangling in front of his sternum was openly carried.

Another criminal pretending the peek-a-boo game means something exists only once it is uncovered.

GuyW
12-27-2008, 1:25 PM
take it from my advise. do-not-use-this-knife-for-self-defense

i have had several extreme-ops models where the blade refused to stay open. bearing pressure on the blade vertically can cause it to suddenly close and WILL eventually cause injury to your fingers.

ive had this happen on my tanto AND serrated model. they are good cheap knives.

Hmmm. Do you know any websites where folks have tested and reported the various locking-blade knives for this defect?
.

HowardW56
12-27-2008, 2:34 PM
One CPC section to watch out for is the prohibition on lock blade knivers on K-12 school grounds. Its a misdemeanor and applies on all areas of the school campus and even when school is not in session.

I see adults using school grounds to walk their dogs, or shoot hoops after hours all the time. I wonder how many of them are unknowingly breaking the law buy having a Spyderco clipped to their pockets.

I would guess there are a lot of tradesmen who work on school campuses carrying lockblade knives...

Liberty1
12-27-2008, 8:57 PM
Would it? I don't think the firearms situation is analogous because of the specific preemption involved:

http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/dwcl/53701.php


:49:

Preemption applies to other laws too. I've often wondered why the following logic (from the California Peace Officer's Association's attorney) discussing local ordinances against UOC doesn't apply to knifes as well?

http://www.hoffmang.com/firearms/carry/CPOA-Client-Alert-12042008.pdf

Furthermore, we doubt that a local ordinance could be enacted to close this gap by, for instance, making it a violation of a city’s municipal code to carry an unloaded and unconcealed firearm in public. In this regard, please note Article XI, 7 of the California Constitution, which provides that:

A county or city may make and enforce within its limits all local, police, sanitary, and other ordinances and regulations not in conflict with general laws.

The California Supreme Court has identified three types of conflict that cause preemption of local legislation: A conflict exists if the local legislation duplicates, contradicts, or enters an area fully occupied by general law, either expressly or by legislative implication. Local legislation is contradictory to general law when it is inimical thereto. A local ordinance is preempted by a state statute only to the extent that the two conflict. Action Apartment Assn., Inc. v. City of Santa Monica, (2007) 41 Cal. 4th 1232. For a local ordinance to proscribe that which is allowed under State law would perforce be to contradict state law. Furthermore, given the extent of State regulation of dangerous weapons, it would seem apparent that the State has “fully occupied” this area by its general laws.

DDT
12-27-2008, 9:33 PM
I was browsing the firearms PCs just now (exciting life, I know) and thought the same thing. I specifically saw the sections on Nunchaku and wondered why they could be banned except by self-defense schools. If you can learn to defend yourself with then but aren't allowed to ACTUALLY defend yourself with them what's the point? It would seem that the "Right to keep and bear arms" shouldn't apply to firearms only.

I know several police officers who carry knives (yes multiple) on their person at all times, yes concealed both fixed and folding. One says he's never without at least 4 knives secreted on his person. Are there exemptions to the knife sections for LEOs?

N6ATF
12-28-2008, 12:15 AM
OT, but nunchaku seem so easy to injure yourself with. To strike out, you have 50% of the strike coming back at you, right? Anecdotally, I had a former cop as a teacher and he was actually issued them by his department (and under a psuedonym), and when he had to use them on a combative suspect, he ended up whacking himself in the head. He said he never left his baton in the car again.

At least guns are only effective in one direction.