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jjperl
10-18-2007, 10:49 PM
Night vision is fun, so that means in California its got to be illegal some how.

So my question is, what type of night vision and or features on night vision are illegal here?

SemiAutoSam
10-18-2007, 11:03 PM
Are you forgetting the kind that uses a IR light source.

I remember that kind being illegal.

Perfectly legal to buy sell and own.

jjperl
10-18-2007, 11:17 PM
ok, so night vision can have IR as long as it isn't mounted on a firearm?

Ratters
10-18-2007, 11:20 PM
ok, so night vision can have IR as long as it isn't mounted on a firearm?


Yep, even the cheap Gen I stuff at Big 5 comes with and IR illuminator. Just can't put on a weapon as it then becomes a "sniper scope".

CRTguns
10-18-2007, 11:25 PM
...and if you knowingly sell or otherwise furnish NV to someone who is NOT a citizen of the US, or is oversees, outside the US, you can be charged with some crazy S***. Something along the lines of treason.

I have had to turn some folks away who come in asking-
"tienes lentes de noche?"
I gotta ask them for a green card- if they have one, it's a no-go. If they do not have one, especially a no-go.

jjperl
10-18-2007, 11:46 PM
Night vision w/ IR illumination= legal.

Night vision w/ IR illuminator + mounted on gun= illegal.

Night vision mounted on gun w/out IR illumination= legal.

Do I have this right?

socalguns
10-18-2007, 11:50 PM
http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/dwcl/244.php

Sniperscopes

* 468. Any person who knowingly buys, sells, receives, disposes of, conceals, or has in his possession a sniperscope shall be guilty of a misdemeanor, punishable by a fine not to exceed one thousand dollars ($1,000) or by imprisonment in the county jail for not more than one year, or by both such fine and imprisonment. As used in this section, sniperscope means any attachment, device or similar contrivance designed for or adaptable to use on a firearm which, through the use of a projected infrared light source and electronic telescope, enables the operator thereof to visually determine and locate the presence of objects during the nighttime. This section shall not prohibit the authorized use or possession of such sniperscope by a member of the armed forces of the United States or by police officers, peace officers, or law enforcement officers authorized by the properly constituted authorities for the enforcement of law or ordinances; nor shall this section prohibit the use or possession of such sniperscope when used solely for scientific research or educational purposes.

jjperl
10-19-2007, 12:08 AM
Sniperscopes

* 468. Any person who knowingly buys, sells, receives, disposes of, conceals, or has in his possession a sniperscope shall be guilty of a misdemeanor, punishable by a fine not to exceed one thousand dollars ($1,000) or by imprisonment in the county jail for not more than one year, or by both such fine and imprisonment. As used in this section, sniperscope means any attachment, device or similar contrivance designed for or adaptable to use on a firearm which, through the use of a projected infrared light source and electronic telescope, enables the operator thereof to visually determine and locate the presence of objects during the nighttime. This section shall not prohibit the authorized use or possession of such sniperscope by a member of the armed forces of the United States or by police officers, peace officers, or law enforcement officers authorized by the properly constituted authorities for the enforcement of law or ordinances; nor shall this section prohibit the use or possession of such sniperscope when used solely for scientific research or educational purposes.

So if it isn't telescopic and has IR its legit?

Maddog5150
10-19-2007, 12:13 AM
Heh. If you have a nightvision scope and a surefire IR flashlight not on the rifle, or hell even on it since its not a part of the scope, does it make it illegal?
And anyone have the PC code for selling night vision to non citizens? Im very interested in it?

Mssr. Eleganté
10-19-2007, 12:15 AM
Only if they're mounted on a firearm and used for aiming.

It doesn't have to be mounted on a firearm. It just has to be designed for use on a firearm or adaptable to use on a firearm. That seems to give a DA a lot of latitude. Or is there some case law that backs up the "only if mounted on a firearm" interpretation?

Sniperscopes

* 468. Any person who knowingly buys, sells, receives, disposes of, conceals, or has in his possession a sniperscope shall be guilty of a misdemeanor, punishable by a fine not to exceed one thousand dollars ($1,000) or by imprisonment in the county jail for not more than one year, or by both such fine and imprisonment. As used in this section, sniperscope means any attachment, device or similar contrivance designed for or adaptable to use on a firearm which, through the use of a projected infrared light source and electronic telescope, enables the operator thereof to visually determine and locate the presence of objects during the nighttime. This section shall not prohibit the authorized use or possession of such sniperscope by a member of the armed forces of the United States or by police officers, peace officers, or law enforcement officers authorized by the properly constituted authorities for the enforcement of law or ordinances; nor shall this section prohibit the use or possession of such sniperscope when used solely for scientific research or educational purposes.

jjperl
10-19-2007, 12:29 AM
Sniperscopes


* 468. Any person who knowingly buys, sells, receives, disposes of, conceals, or has in his possession a sniperscope shall be guilty of a misdemeanor, punishable by a fine not to exceed one thousand dollars ($1,000) or by imprisonment in the county jail for not more than one year, or by both such fine and imprisonment. As used in this section, sniperscope means any attachment, device or similar contrivance designed for or adaptable to use on a firearm which, through the use of a projected infrared light source and electronic telescope, enables the operator thereof to visually determine and locate the presence of objects during the nighttime. This section shall not prohibit the authorized use or possession of such sniperscope by a member of the armed forces of the United States or by police officers, peace officers, or law enforcement officers authorized by the properly constituted authorities for the enforcement of law or ordinances; nor shall this section prohibit the use or possession of such sniperscope when used solely for scientific research or educational purposes.

So if the night vision isn't telescopic and has IR is it legit to mount on a rifle?

BillCA
10-19-2007, 3:36 AM
IF you had a night vision device with no magnification (1x) AND you was to risk arguing against the DA's claim that the legislative intent was to prohibit IR equipped weapons, then you could mount it. This is where a good attorney could save you some hefty legal fees.

If you have a nightvision scope and a surefire IR flashlight not on the rifle, or hell even on it since its not a part of the scope, does it make it illegal?

Yes. Note the use of the word AND in the following;

sniperscope means any attachment, device or similar contrivance designed for or adaptable to use on a firearm which, through the use of a projected infrared light source and electronic telescope...

If you have projected IR light AND an electronic telescope it's a no-no if it's mounted on are adaptable for use on a firearm. In theory, many of the GEN-I units are illegal if you have a method to mount it on your firearm (i.e. the scope has a camera-threaded hole and your picatinny rail has a similar threaded screw or knob to mount it.

It'd be a gray area, but if you were to wear an IR cyalume stick (yes, they exist) as your light source, that would not necessarily be "projected" IR light. Limited range, of course.

If you really want to see an LEO's eyes open wide in a gun shop, mention to the shop owner it's too bad he doesn't have any tracer ammo because it looks soooo cool through your nightvision scope. :D (It's best to affect a southern drawl when you do this)

And anyone have the PC code for selling night vision to non citizens?
It's federal law, not state. NVOptics are classified as "munitions" for export purposes and selling to a non-citizen can be considered a sale for export.

JALLEN
10-19-2007, 10:38 AM
I've been looking at buying some NV binos for the boat. The ads all state "illegal for export" or sales out of the US or similar language.

Anyone have recommendations for such a device? Brand, models, things to avoid, except Picitinney rail mounting, I suppose.

SAN_ Shooter
10-19-2007, 11:47 AM
In addition the discussed firearms application, here in the PRK, I think there would also be a "privacy issue". I can just imagine some slimef--k lawyer, filing suit for not warning all parties under surveilance.
My old video camera has an IR source and somewhat limited night-vision capability. Set up for time-lapse recording it's pretty neat to see what happens around a campsite in the woods.

Hmmm, I wonder if the law applies, when an IR source is provided by a "third party"??? Miguel

Dr. Peter Venkman
10-19-2007, 12:05 PM
You're better off just evolving your eyes to feature night vision.

dwtt
10-19-2007, 12:59 PM
I don't see what the problem is. Read the law and follow it. Get a image intensifier that doesn't work in the near IR so you don't need an IR illuminator. It's legal. It's that simple.
Magnification doesn't play any role in this.

jjperl
10-19-2007, 1:25 PM
So from what I am understand is that these are illegal?

http://www.nationalinfrared.com/PVS_14___6015.php

vandal
10-19-2007, 1:34 PM
I think an IR monocular mounted to headgear, and an IR weapon-mounted laser and illuminator would be the way I would go.

mcubed4130
10-19-2007, 1:57 PM
Or just buy one that operates on passive heat - instead of IR.

http://www.nationalinfrared.com/Specter_IR.php

-M3

dwtt
10-19-2007, 10:41 PM
So from what I am understand is that these are illegal?

http://www.nationalinfrared.com/PVS_14___6015.php

The ANPVS-14 has an IR LED illuminator for short range work. Do you think it's legal, after reading the last 3 pages?
http://www.es.northropgrumman.com/es/eos/PDF_Data_Sheets/ANPVS-14.pdf

jjperl
10-20-2007, 7:01 PM
As used in this section, sniperscope means any attachment, device or similar contrivance designed for or adaptable to use on a firearm which, through the use of a projected infrared light source and electronic telescope, enables the operator thereof to visually determine and locate the presence of objects during the nighttime.

Well I'm just gonna have to assume that if NV has IR illumination, can be mounted to a gun and is not telescopic (1x) it's legal to own/buy/sell. Am I being unreasonable in my assessment of the law?

tiki
10-21-2007, 5:17 AM
Just dont hunt with it. Give a class once a year on using a scope. The law provides an exception for educational use.

CSACANNONEER
10-21-2007, 10:13 AM
To play devil's advocate, I'll say that a 1X telescope is still a telescope and would not try to mount it to a firearm. Also, the way this law is written, it appears that, since any NV with IR could be attached to a firearm with duct tape, all NVs with IR could be illegal to posses wether or not attached to a firearm.

socalguns
10-22-2007, 12:54 AM
donkeys are not the devil's advocate :)

mcubed4130
10-22-2007, 12:12 PM
Well I'm just gonna have to assume that if NV has IR illumination, can be mounted to a gun and is not telescopic (1x) it's legal to own/buy/sell. Am I being unreasonable in my assessment of the law?

Personal opinion:

I'd rather buy "Passive Heat Imaging Scope" and smile funny at the LEO; as he tries to noodle that a "Passive Heat Imaging Scope w/no projected anything" - is really an "Nightvision IR Scope w/projected IR light"... I'm thinking the LEO is more likely to laugh; and pat me on the back for knowing the law; than hauling me into the slammer.

vs...

Trying to convince a Judge - that a "IR Nightvision Scope w/projected IR light" is not a "tele-scope". Webster is probably on your side; but you will probably be in for a $25-$30k lawyers bill... before you get the judge to agree.

But - as always - living in the PRK; you must decide for yourself what your tolerance for the strict interpretation of crazy laws are.

-M3

JALLEN
10-22-2007, 1:17 PM
You're better off just evolving your eyes to feature night vision.

Unhappily, my eyes seem to be evolving in the other direction:( At my age, my eyes don't work as well in the daytime as they used to.

Anyway, I think the solution to my night vision issues on the boat are solved by using a FLIR http://www.cvs.flir.com/maritime/products/mariner_pcy.cfm

jjperl
10-22-2007, 4:56 PM
How much would you say a used PVS 14 / 6015 is worth?

Used as in its got lots of minor scratches and its about 7 years old, but it supposedly works great.

http://www.nationalinfrared.com/PVS_14___6015.php

grammaton76
10-24-2007, 5:07 AM
Good luck on finding a truly non-magnifying NV scope. I've been looking for a while... although generally just with the Russian places. I don't fancy spending $500+ for something that's more or less just zombie-insurance.

I do have an old magnifying NV scope, with emitter, that I just don't keep the emitter anywhere close to the scope for. Nor do I keep it mounted on a rifle... it's also just for zombie insurance.

mcubed4130
10-24-2007, 8:19 AM
... it's also just for zombie insurance.

And the real question is... do zombies show up on IR? :D

-M3

grammaton76
10-24-2007, 1:28 PM
And the real question is... do zombies show up on IR? :D

They don't have to, if you have an emitter. :)

CavTrooper
10-24-2007, 1:42 PM
Just dont hunt with it. Give a class once a year on using a scope. The law provides an exception for educational use.

Is there a restriction on using NV for hunting non-game animals? Ive looked and I cant find any.

mcubed4130
10-24-2007, 1:58 PM
Is there a restriction on using NV for hunting non-game animals? Ive looked and I cant find any.

The way the law (quoted below) is written; if you are doing ANYTHING except what is listed in the exemption to the law; you are guilty of a misdemeanor. Now have fun trying to figure out what "scientific research or educational purposes" means... as far as I've noted it's not defined.

Now... if a LEO stops you - while you are dragging 3 wolf carcasses behind you... I'd suggest you must have been conducting scientific research into the effects of IR projected light on the night-vision capabilities of the wolves... and you are now taking the wolves back to your laboratory to investigate if the IR projected light; did in fact dilate their eyes - as you predicted... :D

Or... buy a passive IR scope. (Even those these cost $12k, it's less than the lawyers fees and you get bragging rights).

-M3


http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/Cfl2007.pdf
Sniperscopes

A sniperscope is defined as a device made or adapted for use on a firearm that enables the operator to detect objects during nighttime through the use of a projected infrared light source and an electronic telescope. (Penal Code § 468.)

Any person who buys, sells, receives, disposes of, conceals, or possesses a sniperscope is guilty of a misdemeanor. This prohibition does not apply to authorized use or possession of sniperscopes by members of the armed forces or peace officers, and does not prohibit use or possession solely for scientific research or educational purposes. (Penal Code § 468.)

CavTrooper
10-24-2007, 2:26 PM
Not all NV is equipped with a IR light, I imagine thats all well and good but I was wondering about the HUNTING aspect, since the other poster stated "dont hunt with it".

mcubed4130
10-24-2007, 2:37 PM
Not all NV is equipped with a IR light, I imagine thats all well and good but I was wondering about the HUNTING aspect, since the other poster stated "dont hunt with it".

This law as I understand it.. was specifically designed to deal with poachers who would use NV scopes to hunt at night illegally.

And as noted; the way the law is written; using a IR projecting NV scope; while hunting or anything other than "scientific or educational purposes" - would absolutely be a NO NO.

Hence... use a passive - non-projecting IR NV scope, and you avoid the issue of your scope being labeled as a "SniperScope"; you are then allowed to follow all the other relevant laws that go along with the type of hunting you plan on doing.

-M3

Smokeybehr
10-25-2007, 1:18 PM
And the real question is... do zombies show up on IR? :D

-M3

If you hit them with a flamethrower, they do. :82: