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PonyFiveO
10-17-2007, 9:43 PM
Rugers newest offering. Has anyone handled one yet?

http://www.downrange.tv/artman2/uploads/1/sr9-1.jpg

http://www.downrange.tv/ruger/images/sr9-1.jpg

RUGER SR9 SPECS

Caliber: 9mm Parabellum (9mm x 19)
Capacity: 17+1, 10+1
Barrel: 4.125’’ Stainless Steel Weight: 26.5 oz. (w/empty
magazine)
Overall Length: 7.55’’
Overall Height: 5.52’’
Overall Width: 1.27’’ (over safety thumb levers)
Trigger Pull Weight: 6.5 lbs.
Trigger Pull Length: .48’’
Slide Finish: Brushed Stainless
Slide Material: Through-Hardened Stainless Steel
Frame Material: High Performance Glass-Filled Nylon
Comes with black polyethylene, blow-molded case; instruction manual; external locking device; and two magazines.

http://www.downrange.tv/artman2/publish/drtvarticles/117.shtml

Welcome to RED OCTOBER!
By Michael Bane
Oct 17, 2007 - 9: 30: 58 PM

A few months ago, the execs at Ruger offered DOWN RANGE a unique opportunity — to help introduce Ruger’s first striker-fired pistol, the 9mm SR9.

Normally, new guns are introduced though a laborious process that makes giving birth seem simple and painless. Ruger, though, decided to break the mold. Instead of announcing a gun long in advance of its availability, Ruger would ship new SR9s the day before the gun was announced. And instead of launching the gun through magazines or at a trade show, Ruger would use the powerful medium of the Internet to make sure the maximum number of people got the SR98 message.

Of course we hardcore gun guys at DOWN RANGE were excited to be named part of the project. Our goal is to give you a feel of the new SR9…you get to see the pistol in action, get Michael Bane’s expert take on the new gun, hear the Ruger executives discuss how the SR9 came about and get a quick, impressionistic tour of Ruger’s Prescott, AZ, factory where production of the SR9s is in full swing.

Our commitment to cover this fine new service pistol doesn’t end here. In fact, we’ve already made arrangements to take the Ruger SR9 through the GUNSITE Academy’s baseline 250/350 pistol course in early 2008, and Michael Bane will be running his sample through the wringer over the next few months.


MICHAEL BANE’s Impressions of the SR9

Ruger provided a very exclusive group of firearms experts with more than 50 of the SR9s on a private range in Arizona. In the course of many thousands of rounds fires that afternoon, I saw only two stoppages — both failures of the slide to fully close (solved by a “tap” and both coming late in the afternoon. That is reliability — something Ruger has always delivered in spades.

Here are my first impressions of the gun:

• The ergonomics are outstanding. The gun is very slim…something I am a huge proponent of in a gun you’re going to carry. The flat grip configuration especially works well with my girlie-man hands.

• The SR9 “shoots light.” Of course, most striker-fired 9mms shoot light, thanks to an enhanced focus on ergonomics, but the SR9 is exceptional in that arena. This is a gun that made it easy for us to keep running 9mm ball through it all day.

• Two big ole thumbs up for the manual safety! I am a huge fan of manual safties. That’s because twice in my life I have looked at a living human being over a set of gun sights, and I have first-hand knowledge of the physiological changes to the person holding the gun. A real plus is a manual safety that mimics the 1911 safety…John Browning, in fact, knew what he was doing.

• The new SR9 fits an existing Glock holster. Smart…very smart! Even my beagle Alf has a Glock holster.

• The sights are excellent. I heard no complaints about the proprietary Ruger front and rear sights. Good clean sight picture; 3 dots on the rear, which I can either take or leave; a night sight option (of course). If I was going to campaign the gun — which I just might — my inclination would be to go to Heinie Straight-Eights, which I’m sure will be quickly available for the SR9.

• The trigger pull is exceptional for a striker-fired gun. I tried as many of the test guns as I could, and all of them fell in the what I think of as a “comfortable” range. My current thinking on triggers is that we as alleged experts have put far too much emphasis on the trigger pull weight, which is really not nearly as important as our ability to pull said trigger. Suffice to say competition ace and regular Michael Bane Blog commenter Patrick Sweeney was running some super fast runs with the SR9 on steel after only one magazine of warm-up.

• Disassembly is a cakewalk. Sadly, no one at Ruger has any idea whether the SR9 is dishwasher safe or not, a stunning lack of testing, if you ask me. Also, it doesn’t come in colors.

• The magazine release is too stiff. I was at the factory while the Powers-That-Be at Ruger made the modifications on the production models. I’m looking forward to getting my T&E gun next week, so I’ll make sure the changes have been made.

• It’s an intelligent platform for the next steps. Although Ruger execs declined to comment, of course a compact and additional calibers are in the design pipeline. With the manual safety and the super slim outline, a compact version of the SR9 has the potential to be a true category killer of a carry gun!

• The price structure is “aggressive.” Means the SR9 will be less expensive that its competition.

OVERALL VERDICT — The relatively new management team at Ruger has a stone hit on on their hands, and the polymer-frame striker-fired pistol market has been turned on its head. Can’t wait to take this one through GUNSITE!

davedog665
10-17-2007, 9:52 PM
i would rather have my xd

BaronW
10-17-2007, 9:56 PM
I see nothing that makes this better than an FNP-9.

Stanze
10-17-2007, 9:56 PM
If it doesn't have a mag disconnect safety, no CA civvie sales.:(

Kudos to Ruger for bringing back standard capacity mags.:)

EDIT: Ruger VP just said it had a mag disco.

EDIT 2: If this Ruger has a nice trigger, accuracy, reliability and offered for around $300 bucks it'll definitely steal some sales from the competition. I don't know about killing proven designs though.

ghost
10-17-2007, 9:58 PM
no matter what its still a ruger,an inferior gun compared to the glock,xd,and m&p.

ZombieKiller
10-17-2007, 10:08 PM
nice.......but it's not a Glock.

Greg-Dawg
10-17-2007, 10:13 PM
nice.......but it's not a Glock.

+1 :D

Bizcuits
10-17-2007, 10:13 PM
I own 1 ruger product and god dammit I will never own another one, because sadly honest hunters do have more then 10rds in a gun!

Quiet
10-17-2007, 11:23 PM
Visually it appears to be a 9x19mm version of the Kimber KPD.

Stanze
10-18-2007, 12:04 AM
Visually it appears to be a 9x19mm version of the Kimber KPD.

Which looks like a Steyr M9.

http://www.steyr-aug.com/m_series_pistols.htm

chunger
10-18-2007, 12:29 AM
I won't buy ruger products because of their support of the federal AW ban. They'd have to do something pretty darn politically pro-active to get my support back. As long as there's another competing product that can get the job done, I'll go that route (Glock, Smith and Wesson M&P, Steyr, XD, Sig, CZ).

CalgunsRocks
10-18-2007, 1:12 AM
seems interesting. i might take a look at it when its avail in CA.

i also hope ruger makes factory 10 rnd mags for their minis (this time in larger numbers). if they do, i'd def buy one.

bwiese
10-18-2007, 1:26 AM
This has echoes of the Ruger P345, which was a massive step down IMHO from the *excellent* very accurate P90.

I hope this is not a replacement for the P89 because that is one of the toughest guns out there. It's perceived as 'downmarket' which perhaps restricts aftermarket parts (tuned triggers, bbls, etc.)

Black Majik
10-18-2007, 9:00 AM
Hmm... it doesn't seem like there's enough room to put all of this on that gun:

"Bullet comes of out this end ---->"
"Warning: This gun can injury or kill"
"Warning: Do not use with more than 10 rounds"
"Use recommended factory ammunition when using firearm"
"Please keep away from anyone under 21"
"Please do not drink and use"
"Warning: Firearm's barrel can be hot after prolonged use. This warning is so you're dumbass doesn't sue us after you burn yourself after doing a magdump."

bonjing
10-18-2007, 10:02 AM
Hmm... it doesn't seem like there's enough room to put all of this on that gun:

"Bullet comes of out this end ---->"
"Warning: This gun can injury or kill"
"Warning: Do not use with more than 10 rounds"
"Use recommended factory ammunition when using firearm"
"Please keep away from anyone under 21"
"Please do not drink and use"
"Warning: Firearm's barrel can be hot after prolonged use. This warning is so you're dumbass doesn't sue us after you burn yourself after doing a magdump."

don't the warnings have to come in spanish too? :biggrinjester:

kurac
10-18-2007, 10:08 AM
whatever

cgmoe
10-18-2007, 10:35 AM
I doubt Ruger could ever make a Pistol worthy of being called a Glock killer.

railroader
10-18-2007, 8:47 PM
Wow! I'm not saying I would buy one but you guys are knocking a gun you haven't actually seen, handled or shot. It might turn out to be a really nice pistol and I own a few plastic guns including a ruger p97 which looks kinda clunky but actually shoots great. Give it a chance. Mark

bohoki
10-18-2007, 9:00 PM
If it doesn't have a mag disconnect safety, no CA civvie sales.:(

Kudos to Ruger for bringing back standard capacity mags.:)

EDIT: Ruger VP just said it had a mag disco.

EDIT 2: If this Ruger has a nice trigger, accuracy, reliability and offered for around $300 bucks it'll definitely steal some sales from the competition. I don't know about killing proven designs though.


what? my baby eagle doesnt have a mag dissconect safety and it is approved

RECCE556
10-18-2007, 9:05 PM
As much as I hate Ruger (the company, Bill Ruger and most of their firearms), I'm willing to give them a chance. Personally, I'm going to reserve judgement until I can at least fondle one and hopefully shoot one. If it turns out to be a decent gun, and it's in low high-$200 to low-$300 range, it may not be a bad option for people who are paycheck challenged who need a defense weapon. Otherwise, I don't know why someone wouldn't get a Steyr M40A1 (or the M9A1) which is less expensive and better than the Glocks and better than the XD IMO.

Just from the review alone, I can't see it being a Glock/M&P/XD killer...

joe4702
10-18-2007, 9:05 PM
Looks like the S&W Sigma

LECTRIKHED
10-18-2007, 9:07 PM
what? my baby eagle doesnt have a mag dissconect safety and it is approved

For those who ask questions without reading the laws, here is the answer. That only applies to new pistols on the roster. Baby Eagle was already approved.

This pistol has a magazine safety disconnect. They're not abandoning California.:)

FatKatMatt
10-18-2007, 10:39 PM
I think if the slide release and thumb safety were bigger, and the sights were of a lower profile, and that ugly "SR9" logo was removed, and it was made in the manly .45 ACP caliber, then I would consider it. Right now, an XD or FN is definetely a better choice.

SFFRONTMAN
10-18-2007, 11:10 PM
You kiddin me? hahah nothing could kill my glocks.

leelaw
10-18-2007, 11:11 PM
You kiddin me? hahah nothing could kill my glocks.

I've got a match that says otherwise :p

SFFRONTMAN
10-19-2007, 12:00 AM
Hahahaha, alrighty lets give it a go. First 4,000+ rounds with out cleaning gets bragging rights......and has to pay for the ammo.:D

leelaw
10-19-2007, 12:04 AM
Hahahaha, alrighty lets give it a go. First 4,000+ rounds with out cleaning gets bragging rights......and has to pay for the ammo.:D

You said nothing could kill your Glock. I contend that a match could. Your choice of strike-on-box or strike-anywhere. :D ;)

SFFRONTMAN
10-19-2007, 1:01 AM
Ok, im thinking strike anywhere.......naw still wouldn't kill it. Haven t you heard?? new glock formula makes the polymer safe from flames and kryptonite! (super secret ca compliant mixture of course)

CalNRA
10-19-2007, 1:08 AM
Ok, im thinking strike anywhere.......naw still wouldn't kill it. Haven t you heard?? new glock formula makes the polymer safe from flames and kryptonite! (super secret ca compliant mixture of course)

you mean the new 70,000 dollar Glock 8?

:eek:

SFFRONTMAN
10-19-2007, 1:13 AM
They very same one, and of course, it being father model to the glock 7, it comes with a 300 round mag standard.

http://www.arniesairsoft.co.uk/reviews/guarder_scopemount/glock19_dressedup.jpg

Maddog5150
10-19-2007, 2:10 AM
Hmm... it doesn't seem like there's enough room to put all of this on that gun:

"Bullet comes of out this end ---->"
"Warning: This gun can injury or kill"
"Warning: Do not use with more than 10 rounds"
"Use recommended factory ammunition when using firearm"
"Please keep away from anyone under 21"
"Please do not drink and use"
"Warning: Firearm's barrel can be hot after prolonged use. This warning is so you're dumbass doesn't sue us after you burn yourself after doing a magdump."

Deleted

on another note. knowing ruger, I bet ruger will skip ahead and have the guns ready for microstamping off the bat and try to corner the market in california :rolleyes:

Trader Jack
10-19-2007, 10:25 AM
You kiddin me? hahah nothing could kill my glocks.

Nothing except a Sig Sauer:chris:

aca72
10-19-2007, 10:33 AM
Looks nice but I don't think it would dent Glock's domination in the market(Civ, LE, Mil).

We'll see.

maxicon
10-19-2007, 4:06 PM
Like any new handgun design, it will take years to prove itself in the marketplace. Ruger's got a strong history of solid, reliable, sturdy, inexpensive handguns, and there's no doubt they'll sell a good number of them, but their impact on the overall market can't be judged for at least 5 years.

It's good to see them paying a bit more attention to ergonomics, and I like that their new safety works in the 1911 direction, instead of the opposite.

Gryff
10-19-2007, 4:11 PM
I'm not a huge Ruger fan, but I'm glad to see the gun get released. It is better to see new quality guns come on the market than to see companies shrink their product line.

I'm not selling my XD just yet, but I hope it does well for them.

-Jim

thomasanelson
10-19-2007, 6:48 PM
no matter what its still a ruger,an inferior gun compared to the glock,xd,and m&p.

Wow! That hurts. I agree with the Glock, but the XD? Wow:eek:

Thunderhawk
10-19-2007, 9:30 PM
I trust my Rugers as much as I trust my Glocks. I like the looks of this new one. Gonna give it til Feb/March to see how it shakes down before I get one.

KenpoProfessor
10-20-2007, 5:09 AM
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/SearchResults.asp

People are not selling this first run at a REASONABLE price. This gun looks just like the Sigma, and probably as reliable, but for this price, I'll keep both my Sigmas, mostly because I can put a 9mm upper on the .40 (got it on Ebay in the good ole' days for $85, complete) and both have yet to have an FTF or FTE.

proraptor
10-20-2007, 7:33 AM
Nothing except a Sig Sauer:chris:

WRONG

DRSFEFA
10-20-2007, 10:25 AM
I've been exceptioally happy with my KP345. It is my main carry choice. This new one looks very promising to me. What I would really like to see is a compact version.

SteveSatch
10-20-2007, 7:52 PM
His family has nothing to do with the business now. It was sold.

Let's all remember now what that ***** Bill Ruger said about magazine capacity. I will neveragain give his dead, rotting, body's company business. Period.:D

bwiese
10-20-2007, 8:03 PM
Ruger is a publicly-traded company.

adamsreeftank
10-21-2007, 3:01 AM
I kind of like the look of the grip, but for some reason, none of the striker fired guns I've tried have had as short a trigger pull and reset as a Glock. Once you've gone Glock, you can't go back.

leelaw
10-21-2007, 3:12 AM
I kind of like the look of the grip, but for some reason, none of the striker fired guns I've tried have had as short a trigger pull and reset as a Glock.

Have you tried an FN Five-seveN?

50 Freak
10-21-2007, 4:33 AM
You said nothing could kill your Glock. I contend that a match could. Your choice of strike-on-box or strike-anywhere. :D ;)


Deal...you get one match against my Glock...I get one bullet against your match...Me thinks I will come out ahead.:43:

supersonic
10-21-2007, 6:04 AM
His family has nothing to do with the business now. It was sold.

I see....................................still, I think I'll pass, as my Glocks/SIG/S&W1911 have spoiled me. STILL, though:(deleted)B.R.'s "gun-grabber" legacy he left behind, IMHO.:)

mike100
10-21-2007, 7:48 AM
There are sooo many good 9mm's on the market, but I like the effort, especially since the kpr345 was so uninspiring.

Somebody asked why you would buy a Ruger over a springfield. Because you can't work on it yourself and it comes from yugoslavia. Ruger's warranty is better than sprinfield's. Ruger has no warranty and springfield has a lifetime one. The quote from the movie Tommy Boy about crapping in a box comes to mind.

That said, S&W probably has the best warranty in the business and the M&P is supposed to be pretty good. (I have yet to try one).

There is one thing (from a CA perspective) that glock has. I owned a glock way back when and still have mags. I don't think your gonna go farwith the argument that your 17 rd ruger SR9 mags were in possesion before 2000. I hope their compact does well here though.

supersonic
10-21-2007, 10:41 AM
I kind of like the look of the grip, but for some reason, none of the striker fired guns I've tried have had as short a trigger pull and reset as a Glock. Once you've gone Glock, you can't go back.

+100%:)

DRSFEFA
10-21-2007, 11:11 AM
There are sooo many good 9mm's on the market, but I like the effort, especially since the kpr345 was so uninspiring.

I stay away from all the Ruger bashing on this forum. Ancient history doesn't always fly.

I have 3 Rugers and they are all rock solid reliable accurate guns. I am particularly happy with my KP345. It is my 90% of the time carry pistol. The biggest advantages are that it is as slim as my Springfield 1911, and only weighs 29oz. For a full sized .45 it is almost invisible in the Don Hume IWB holster. I can carry wearing just a 2x T-shirt (and I'm girthy). Everyone I know who has ever shot this gun has been truly impressed with it. Two close friends have on their get this one next list. I put Meprolight night sights on it and they work great.

If this new striker pistol is even close it should be a hit - especially as the price comes down and they offer a compact.

RECCE556
10-21-2007, 9:13 PM
People are not selling this first run at a REASONABLE price.
Notice the # of bids too. :)

slick_711
10-21-2007, 9:49 PM
I can't help but laugh out loud at everyone who said this wouldn't compete with or "kill" the Glocks, XDs, or M&Ps. If you rank those three pistols together you're in for a rude awakening.

The XD is an excellent pistol, even has some improvements over the Glock, that said, there wasn't anything wrong with the Glock in the first place. S&W M&P on the other hand... cannot contend with the other two. Stop lumping the three of them together. The SR9 will be right there with the M&P until it proves itself (or fails to). And likely cheaper?

metalhead357
10-21-2007, 10:46 PM
I won't buy ruger products because of their support of the federal AW ban. They'd have to do something pretty darn politically pro-active to get my support back. As long as there's another competing product that can get the job done, I'll go that route (Glock, Smith and Wesson M&P, Steyr, XD, Sig, CZ).


twernt the COMPANY...twuz ruger himself...and was on the mags per se not the guns themselves; but I hear ya/////////////

Rugers are always built like brick Shat-houses. My guess, it will UNdoubtedly be reliable...but heavy as a tank with much less refinement/spit&polish than anything else on the market save for the junkers of Locern, AMT and the Keltec kinds........

maxicon
10-22-2007, 9:59 AM
I guess lots of people have forgotten the deal S&W made with the Clinton HUD back in the day. That was a much bigger sell-out, and at a corporate level, than anything Bill Ruger ever did or said. Heck, I think it's still in effect - I never saw that the agreement was legally nullified. I guess Hillary will let us know if she wins this time.

Still, it's old history now. The people who did it are gone, S&W has changed their ways, and only a few old-school holdouts chant "S&W Must Die!". They're making good guns and supporting the American shooting culture, just like Ruger.

I buy from both of them. Great guns and good companies, each in their different way.

metalhead357
10-22-2007, 6:03 PM
I guess lots of people have forgotten the deal S&W made with the Clinton HUD back in the day. That was a much bigger sell-out, and at a corporate level, than anything Bill Ruger ever did or said. Heck, I think it's still in effect - I never saw that the agreement was legally nullified. I guess Hillary will let us know if she wins this time.

Still, it's old history now. The people who did it are gone, S&W has changed their ways, and only a few old-school holdouts chant "S&W Must Die!". They're making good guns and supporting the American shooting culture, just like Ruger.

I buy from both of them. Great guns and good companies, each in their different way.


+1000000000 the S&W was a MUCH BIGGER deal than Ruger and left me NOT buying S&W for close to 11 years after.........

But BOTH have cleaned up thier act...........so let they bygones...be gone;)

Ryan HBC
10-22-2007, 10:25 PM
nice.......but it's not a Glock.

Are you being serious??

All of the Glock fapping in here is going to make me anti Glock forever. Would it kill some of you guys to buy a damn American made firearm? God, at least try it.

That's it. From here on out, I am officially anti Glock. Need to put some balance in the force.

SFFRONTMAN
10-22-2007, 10:30 PM
Not gonna happen, the dark side of the force if to strong!:D

krazz
10-22-2007, 10:34 PM
Can't beat a Glock...the only Ruger I'll ever own is a 10/22...for my 3 year old.

Ryan HBC
10-22-2007, 10:45 PM
Can't beat a Glock...

Why not? Why do you think the Glock is God's gift to handguns? You can get a USP that will be just as reliable and much less likely to explode in your hand/face.

Honestly, I think the XD's are better built than Glocks too. I can look down into the frame of a Glock and XD side by side, and the XD looks much beefier with more metal parts.

krazz
10-22-2007, 10:57 PM
Why not? Why do you think the Glock is God's gift to handguns? You can get a USP that will be just as reliable and much less likely to explode in your hand/face.

Yes...perfect home defense handgun...cheap, tough and reliable. My Glocks will perform no matter what I do to them, or put in them...my USP will not...I have no opinion on XD's, I don't own one.

Do you own a Glock?

Ryan HBC
10-22-2007, 11:04 PM
Yes...perfect home defense handgun...cheap, tough and reliable. My Glocks will perform no matter what I do to them, or put in them...my USP will not...I have no opinion on XD's, I don't own one.

Do you own a Glock?

What do you think your Glock is going to do that your USP won't? Do you think the parts are better quality, or is it a better design? I need to shake the hand of whoever does marketing for Glock.

I currently have a Glock 27, but used to own a 21. I gave it to my brother in law because shooting it kind of felt like shaking hands with a 2 x 4. Once I got my P220ST and USP the 21 never saw any range time.

RECCE556
10-23-2007, 12:03 AM
Glock (Austria), HK (Germany), XD (Croatia)...Colt 1911 (UNITED STATES OF AMERICA). :) Honestly, I don't care where it's made so long as it's a good pistol. I won't buy a pistol mearly because it's a U.S. made gun. Lorins, Jennings, Brycos, etc. were all U.S. made guns and they were the cream of the crop for absolute POS pistols. Ruger has never made an auto pistol that I liked. They all felt like they were made in some random third world country designed by someone who used to design bricks before designing for Ruger.

As for Glocks, they are popular because they're everywhere. TV, Movies, News, Games, etc., etc. They were also the first widely popular polymer pistol (not the FIRST, just the first popular one). A lot of people bought them because they were cheap (back in the days) and a lot of people have shot them (range, friends own them, etc). For me, Glocks are just like styrofoam cups. They work as advertised with no frills whatsoever (except for those occasional kB!s). There is not a damn thing that is spectacular about 'em and some people like that.

Most people that I know who own or have owned a LOT of handguns (and different ones) always seem to come down the 1911 and the Browning Hi Powers as their preferred pistol.

SFFRONTMAN
10-23-2007, 12:07 AM
My whole argument for the glockvsigvhkvxd debate is the fact that glocks have 34 parts, they have one of the largest after market support structures in which you can build a complete glock from after market parts alone. And the fact that they are so simple that if you can change a doorknob, you can fix about anything on a glock. While I don't that its a perfect pistol (nothing is) for they price they are damn accurate, reliable, inexpensive, and with a bit of tuning they can make a great competition gun, or just stock they are great defense weapons. Hks are a bit more complicated to take apart, and I don't think they have near the after market avalability that glock does, and frankly to me they are way overpriced.

KenpoProfessor
10-23-2007, 4:41 AM
What do you think your Glock is going to do that your USP won't? Do you think the parts are better quality, or is it a better design? I need to shake the hand of whoever does marketing for Glock.

I currently have a Glock 27, but used to own a 21. I gave it to my brother in law because shooting it kind of felt like shaking hands with a 2 x 4. Once I got my P220ST and USP the 21 never saw any range time.

Then you should really try the G21SF. I wouldn't have bought a G21 either had they not made the change, I hated the way it felt in my hand. I don't particularly like the way the XD45 tactical feels (though I do own an XD40 SC), so now I'm looking at an M&P at the Pawn shop down the street. Only problem with, you can't change calibers like you can with the Glock or XD.

Have a great gun carryin' Kenpo day

Clyde

5968
10-23-2007, 6:58 AM
Yes...perfect home defense handgun...cheap, tough and reliable. My Glocks will perform no matter what I do to them, or put in them...my USP will not...I have no opinion on XD's, I don't own one.

Do you own a Glock?
I own a Glock. It is a pistol. Nothing special about it. I also own two USPs and I would take those any day in any situation over a Glock.

Black Majik
10-23-2007, 10:10 AM
Yes...perfect home defense handgun...cheap, tough and reliable. My Glocks will perform no matter what I do to them, or put in them...my USP will not...I have no opinion on XD's, I don't own one.

Do you own a Glock?

I own both, I like both but I trust my USPs just as much as I trust my Glocks.

Actually I take that back, I trust my USPs more. I fiddle around with my Glocks: change this, change that... replace this, don't like that... ;)

Stock for stock, both are reliable and durable as it gets.

maxicon
10-23-2007, 2:21 PM
I owned a G17, and got rid of it (and I don't sell guns often). Fine gun, accurate from the bench, reliable, etc, but didn't fit me for a hill of beans. It rubbed my hand the wrong way under recoil, and my point'n'shoot accuracy was terrible. There wasn't any point in keeping it - I shot my Ruger P95 better.

I have 4 guns that set the standard for me: an SA Milspec 1911, a CZ75B, a Kahr PM9, and a S&W 586. These guns all fit me very well, are very accurate and reliable, and are great pointshooters. If I come across something that compares, it'll be a keeper, but the Glock just wasn't in the ballpark.

That's just me. YMMV, as always.

BamBam-31
10-23-2007, 3:04 PM
I'm glad to see Ruger put out its polymer contender. When companies compete, consumers win. When it comes to polymer, however, there's no doubt in my mind that Glock is still King of the Hill, with a strong challenge from the Springer XD. After that, it's a bunch of also-rans. What Glock has that no other contender has is a killer combo of affordability, simplicity in design (no gimmicky additional safeties, indicators, back straps, etc.), and long track record for reliability. Glock comes up aces in all three categories. If you're gonna "kill" Glock, you'll wanna start there. ;)

slick_711
10-23-2007, 4:51 PM
My whole argument for the glockvsigvhkvxd debate is the fact that glocks have 34 parts.

Oh? I think you're mistaken as to the exact number on a current production Glock. Furthermore, how many parts does an XD/HK/SIG have? That "3x parts" BS is Glock propaganda... The XDs and Sigs are just as easy to learn to work on, they're just less popular sellers so there is less info available and the manufacturers are stricter with who they let into their armorers classes.

Not knocking Glocks, they're great pistols, but they're not the end all.

DRSFEFA
10-23-2007, 5:01 PM
I find it very entertaining the Glock love/hate twist this thread about the new Ruger has taken.

I do not own a Glock and have fired several. They are accurate and reliable. They also do not fit my hand as second nature like a 1911 does. My wife can't stand the 1911 - the grip angle just doesn't suit her physique. My KP345 does fit me just like it is a part of my hand.

It is really interesting to see people bashing manufacturers instead of acknowledging that there are a whole bunch of really good guns out there, even in California, with one to fit just about everyone that shoots.

Get the one that works! And I can't wait to try one of these. And I pray they come out with a compact .45 model!

BamBam-31
10-23-2007, 5:28 PM
I find it very entertaining the Glock love/hate twist this thread about the new Ruger has taken.

I do not own a Glock and have fired several. They are accurate and reliable. They also do not fit my hand as second nature like a 1911 does. My wife can't stand the 1911 - the grip angle just doesn't suit her physique. My KP345 does fit me just like it is a part of my hand.

It is really interesting to see people bashing manufacturers instead of acknowledging that there are a whole bunch of really good guns out there, even in California, with one to fit just about everyone that shoots.


No surprise, really. If you re-read the title of the thread, the whole premise invites X vs. Y vs. Z, eh? ;)

DRSFEFA
10-23-2007, 5:32 PM
No surprise, really. If you re-read the title of the thread, the whole premise invites X vs. Y vs. Z, eh? ;)


I'll give you that one!

SFFRONTMAN
10-23-2007, 5:50 PM
Nope, im definitely sure im not mistaken as to how many parts a glock has.

According to the current manual the Glock has about 34 parts. They are:
# Part
1 Slide
2 Barrel
3 Recoil spring assembly
4 inapplicable, incorporated in part 3
5 Firing pin
6 Spacer sleeve
7 Firing pin spring
8 Spring cups
9 Firing pin safety
10 Firing pin safety spring
11 Extractor
12 Extractor depressor plunger
13 Extractor depressor plunger spring
14 Spring-loaded bearing
15 Slide cover plate
16 Rear sight
16a Front sight
17 Receiver
18 Magazine catch spring
19 Magazine catch
20 Slide lock spring
21 Slide lock
22 Locking block
23 Trigger mechanism housing with ejector
24 Connector
25 Trigger spring
26 Trigger with trigger bar
27 Slide stop lever
28 Trigger pin
29 Trigger housing pin
30 Follower
31 Magazine spring
32 Magazine floor plate
32a Magazine insert
33 Magazine tube
34 Locking block pin (some models)
35 Channel Liner

Glocks design has changed little since their inception. I also specifically stated that while they're definitely not the end all to be all pistol, as far as my before stated qualities, they're a damn good gun.

Ryan HBC
10-23-2007, 9:03 PM
HA! 35! lol

It is a damn good gun. It has advantages and disadvantages, but the thing that gets me is when someone looks at a new handgun offering by a reputable manufacturer and immediately rejects it because "it's not a Glock".

Ryan HBC
10-23-2007, 9:20 PM
When it comes to polymer, however, there's no doubt in my mind that Glock is still King of the Hill, with a strong challenge from the Springer XD. After that, it's a bunch of also-rans. What Glock has that no other contender has is a killer combo of affordability, simplicity in design (no gimmicky additional safeties, indicators, back straps, etc.), and long track record for reliability. Glock comes up aces in all three categories. If you're gonna "kill" Glock, you'll wanna start there. ;)

Yeah, who needs those gimmicky backstraps? I think if your hand doesn't fit the Glock, there is something wrong with your hand!

Seriously though, I am sitting here with a Glock and an XD. I'm looking at both of them. It seems like the XD has everything the Glock has to offer, and more.

At a glance, the XD has beefier internals, a loaded chamber indicator, a grip saftey, and a real picatinny rail. You honestly prefer to not have these features? None of these will hurt reliability, none of them are "gimmicky". They are all useful. I'm starting to think that the XD gives you a lot more for your money, especially with the holster package that comes with the gun. Please share with me your logic.

I will ignore the fact that you classify all HK USP's and Mark 23's as "also rans".

SFFRONTMAN
10-23-2007, 9:26 PM
4 inapplicable, incorporated in part 3

34...touche!
In all fairness, I shoot the XD pretty well. My only gripe is that for any repairs it goes straight back to the factory, and the grip saftey to me is annoying. Now I personally don't think im as accurate with any usp, because I haven't shot them nearly as much as my glocks (I own 4) but if someone wants to trade my 17 for their elite, id do so any day of the week. (hint hint, nudge nudge):D

deserteagel44
10-23-2007, 9:51 PM
looks cool I'd probably get one:chris:

slick_711
10-23-2007, 9:56 PM
4 inapplicable, incorporated in part 3

34...touche!
In all fairness, I shoot the XD pretty well. My only gripe is that for any repairs it goes straight back to the factory, and the grip saftey to me is annoying. Now I personally don't think im as accurate with any usp, because I haven't shot them nearly as much as my glocks (I own 4) but if someone wants to trade my 17 for their elite, id do so any day of the week. (hint hint, nudge nudge):D

I count 37? 16 & 16a are different parts. 32 & 32a are different parts, and 3/4 is applicable if you have an aftermarket recoil spring guide rod, which every single goober that thinks he has improved his Glock has added.

The grip safety on the XD can be deactivated with ease. It has a better grip angle (American standard ~11 degree like the 1911). The magazine bodies are steel, and the sights are steel. All those parts on a Glock are plastic and break. The mags are metal lined now but still break to the extent they won't lock your slide back. The loaded chamber indicator & cocking indicator aren't necessary to me, but they don't hurt you and they do help many shooters who may be less comfortable with their pistol.

LAK Supply
10-23-2007, 10:25 PM
You can get a USP that will be just as reliable and much less likely to explode in your hand/face.


Probably not.... they're each about as reliable as the other. Most of the better guns are, including the Glock, SIG, HK, etc. As far as a Glock blowing up in anyone's face... they're just as likely to as the HK. The early Gen 1 17's had a reason for the OOB firings.... it's LONG since been corrected. It's just personal preference.

I choose them all. :D

Ryan HBC
10-23-2007, 10:35 PM
Probably not.... they're each about as reliable as the other.

You may be right, but as a recent self proclaimed Glock hater I must use the Glock kaboom as a major point in my argument no matter what.

And does anyone know how many parts are in a 1911 / P220 / USP / XD? Just curious.

LAK Supply
10-23-2007, 10:46 PM
I think the USP 45 has 52, 1911 has around 50 (maybe one or two more with the ambi), 48 in the XD, and 55 or so in a 226.


You may be right, but as a recent self proclaimed Glock hater I must use the Glock kaboom as a major point in my argument no matter what.

And does anyone know how many parts are in a 1911 / P220 / USP / XD? Just curious.

BamBam-31
10-24-2007, 12:25 AM
Yeah, who needs those gimmicky backstraps? I think if your hand doesn't fit the Glock, there is something wrong with your hand!

Seriously though, I am sitting here with a Glock and an XD. I'm looking at both of them. It seems like the XD has everything the Glock has to offer, and more.

At a glance, the XD has beefier internals, a loaded chamber indicator, a grip saftey, and a real picatinny rail. You honestly prefer to not have these features? None of these will hurt reliability, none of them are "gimmicky". They are all useful. I'm starting to think that the XD gives you a lot more for your money, especially with the holster package that comes with the gun. Please share with me your logic.

I will ignore the fact that you classify all HK USP's and Mark 23's as "also rans".


No need to get your panties in a bunch. :rolleyes:

When I described HK's as "also rans," I'm talking about it from a sales perspective. I'm not saying they're bad guns (they're quite nice, actually), but for $200+ more? Come on. You do know that USP's originally came out priced the same as Glocks, right? To compete with them? No one bought them til HK jacked up the prices and marketed them as "tactical." Same exact gun, however. You gonna tell me that $200 difference doesn't make a dent in their sales vs. Glocks? Honestly, now. ;)

From a personal perspective, I've owned an HK USP, but I sold it cuz the grip was too freakin' big for me. Nice piece of engineering, though, a very accurate gun. Just not for me. I also own an XD 45 Tactical (big fan) and various 9mm Glocks (even bigger fan). Those guns fit me better and are keepers in my personal collection.

Yes, IMHO, a LCI is a gimmick, as are interchangeable backstraps. A vast majority of people simply use the medium-sized backstrap and toss the rest. And if you really need a tactile indicator for the chamber, doesn't the extractor work? No, I don't need a grip safety, but I don't mind it, either. Whether or not it affects reliability is debatable--no problem for the Glock, however, as it doesn't have one in the first place. No, I don't need a pic rail. In fact, I don't need rails at all. I have three weapon lights, and none of them currently sit on any of my pistols.

Now, as for what the Glock has that the XD does not:
--Lower bore axis.
--Shorter trigger reset.
--Huge aftermarket support. (Until Springfield decides to sell parts, this will be an Achilles heel for the XD platform.)
--Longer track record for reliability.

So what does the XD have over the Glock?
--Regular rifling.
--Better ergos (for most). No one-size-fits-all finger grooves. Points better (for most).
--Ambi mag release (okay, 21SF, too.). Important for lefties.
--Lifetime warranty.

IMHO, I think those are more pertinent points than, say, a cheap throw-in holster and mag carrier. Again, I own both, and I REALLY like both. :)

And I stand by my point that, until someone out-simplifies Glock or out-does Glock at its own game, Glock will still be King of the Polymer Hill. Think about it. More is not better when it comes to these utilitarian pieces. You want a mag disconnect to go with that LCI? Done. How about adding a Schwartz-type safety to your fire control group? Or a tri-rail, like on an AR? You honestly don't need a tri-rail? You know, VFG on the underbelly, light/laser on far side, bullhorn on near side? All are useful, and none hurt reliability, right? :p

Again, the beauty of the Glock is its simplicity. I know I'm going against the grain here when I say the market's going completely in the wrong direction. Hey, who am I to contradict Ruger's/Springfield's/Kimber's/FN's/S&W's multi-million dollar marketing departments, right? They're just giving the customers what they want. "Look, does your Glock have THIS? Does it have THAT?" And when the newness of this and/or that wears off, you find people asking how to get better trigger pulls (like on a pre-this or that), you find people asking how to remove mag disconnects, you find people asking how to pin grip safeties. IOW, you find people trying to simplify their guns.

But, hey, you're getting more value for your $500, right? At least that's what they need you to think so you'll buy their guns instead....

Ryan HBC
10-24-2007, 10:18 AM
I disagree with almost everything you've said. I guess this would be where "to each his own" would come into play.

bwiese
10-24-2007, 11:26 AM
Quite a few of us have Glocks and just 'put up' with them. Lotsa folks don't like the grip.

I just got a S&W M&P 45 and love it. Letting the trigger 'season' thru another 200 rounds and then it's getting a Burwell trigger job, new sights, and mag disco removal.

I'm selling my G21.

Flux Capacitor
10-24-2007, 11:36 AM
I won't buy ruger products because of their support of the federal AW ban. They'd have to do something pretty darn politically pro-active to get my support back. As long as there's another competing product that can get the job done, I'll go that route (Glock, Smith and Wesson M&P, Steyr, XD, Sig, CZ).

+1. I don't support companies who supportted the ban...including the Grant Brothers.

BamBam-31
10-24-2007, 11:40 AM
I disagree with almost everything you've said. I guess this would be where "to each his own" would come into play.

Although some of what I've posted is my own personal opinion, much of it is nevertheless objectively true. You conveniently ignore that as well. Maybe you weren't looking for a logical response after all....

BamBam-31
10-24-2007, 12:01 PM
Quite a few of us have Glocks and just 'put up' with them. Lotsa folks don't like the grip.

I just got a S&W M&P 45 and love it. Letting the trigger 'season' thru another 200 rounds and then it's getting a Burwell trigger job, new sights, and mag disco removal.

I'm selling my G21.


I'm not saying Glocks are the be-all of handguns for everyone everywhere. Although a huge fan, I'm certainly no Glock kool-aid drinker. Personally, I'd never buy an old 21, as the grip was far too wide for me. Hence the slimmer XD in 45. ;)

I've fondled an M&P in 9mm, and the ergos were quite good. Trigger was kinda mushy, but this particular pistol got a $50 trigger job that improved it vastly. Nice gun, overall.

Again, having a variety of polymer options is a good thing for consumers. Better chance of finding that one gun that fits your hand and works for you. All I'm saying is, in order for any one company to de-throne Glock from an overall sales perspective, they have to focus on what Glock does and doesn't do well and do better. Throwing in more "stuff" like LCI's, backstraps, mag disconnectors, cheapie gun wear, etc., isn't the way to do it. Seems to me, rather than being Glock-beaters, these other companies are simply trying to get a piece of the pie....

paradox
10-24-2007, 12:04 PM
You’re all wrong! The best plastic fantastic pistol is the Steyr M series! :D

Things the Steyr has going for it verses Glock:

* steel subframe instead of moulded in rails
* steel sights, magazines, and mag latch instead of plastic
* better factory trigger than a Glock
* very low bore axis
* 11º grip angle
* fully supported .40S&W chamber
* cut rifling and factory approval for shooting lead SWC
* tighter chamber for happier reloading

Glock does reign supreme for aftermarket support though: it’s the 1911 / AR / rem700 / 10/22 of plastic pistols.

bwiese
10-24-2007, 12:22 PM
+1. I don't support companies who supportted the ban...including the Grant Brothers.

Both S&W and Ruger are under new completely new management.

I'm not a Ruger fan because they will still not sell certain replacement parts directly to end-users. (I can understand, for example, not selling cylinders that require gunsmith fitting - but not selling folding stocks? Not making hicap mags readily available for Mini14s? Some of this may have changed a bit but I still believe the overall sentiments are there.)

But I still love my Ruger 50th Anniv. 357 flattop single action :)

S&W, by contrast, has completely repudiated the prior mgmt's HUD deal. It's dead and gone. They're selling as many guns as they can, they've come out with a line of AR15 rifles, and are even giving away hicap mags for their M&P line as a promotion.

Stanze
10-24-2007, 12:27 PM
In a S.H.T.F. scenario ALL GLOCK pistols can be converted to select-fire with installation of back plate switch.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=kBjUDCyDCuI

Let's see your "GLOCK killer" do that!:chris:

paradox
10-24-2007, 12:31 PM
In a S.H.T.F. scenario ALL GLOCK pistols can be converted to select-fire with installation of back plate switch.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=kBjUDCyDCuI

Let's see your "GLOCK killer" do that!:chris:


In a SHTF scenario, every round of ammunition would be more valuable than gold or moonshine. Why in the hell would you want to spray and pray?

Stanze
10-24-2007, 12:39 PM
In a SHTF scenario, every round of ammunition would be more valuable than gold or moonshine. Why in the hell would you want to spray and pray?

It's nice to have the option.:) I've never been in real-life combat, but playing FPS video games in certain situations you don't last too long shooting semi-auto.:D

Ryan HBC
10-24-2007, 2:09 PM
Although some of what I've posted is my own personal opinion, much of it is nevertheless objectively true. You conveniently ignore that as well. Maybe you weren't looking for a logical response after all....

Your post was just too long for me to break down. I can reply to all that stuff if you really want me to. I'm ok with letting you think that the Glock is the end all of handguns.

BamBam-31
10-24-2007, 2:21 PM
You: I'm ok with letting you think that the Glock is the end all of handguns.


Me earlier: I'm not saying Glocks are the be-all of handguns for everyone everywhere.

It's hard having a discussion with someone who's not really listening....

Ryan HBC
10-24-2007, 2:48 PM
Guilty as charged. Let me rephrase.

I'm ok with letting you think that Glock is the "king of the hill" of handguns.

BamBam-31
10-24-2007, 3:47 PM
Sigh....

Actually, I think Glock's the one to beat in the polymer portion of the handgun market....nevermind.

I'm glad you're "okay" with "letting" me think that. :rolleyes:

(I think I just lost five IQ points.....)

If you ever decide to actually post something of relevance to the discussion at hand, let me know, eh? ;)

Black Majik
10-24-2007, 3:54 PM
Guilty as charged. Let me rephrase.

I'm ok with letting you think that Glock is the "king of the hill" of handguns.

If he likes the Glock platform, I don't see a reason to badger him for it. Just because you're a "self proclaimed Glock hater" doesn't mean everyone else should hate it also.

RECCE556
10-25-2007, 4:39 AM
You’re all wrong! The best plastic fantastic pistol is the Steyr M series! :D
That's a BIG +1 right there. The only reason why I kept my G23 after I bought my M40A1 is because I have a lot of pre-ban high-caps for it...but my G23 hasn't been taken out of my safe ever since I bought the M40A1...I really see no point in shooting it anymore.

After trying the M40A1 (and other guns like 1911's), you realize how crappy the Glock's "ergonomics" are.

BamBam-31
10-25-2007, 11:56 AM
Just a FYI w/ respect to the Steyrs:

The Glock grip angle (plus or minus a degree or so) is shared by several other pistols including the Luger, the H&K P7, the Remington P51 and the new polymer Steyr pistols (to name a few). This grip angle was determined by ergonomic experimentation and is what is most likely to feel comfortable to the average hand. There's an interesting article about the P51 in a recent gun rag which stated that the P51 grip angle was the result of literally hundreds of experiments including many molds of different hands. Not terribly surprising that they came up with the same angle that was duplicated half a century later by Glock and hailed as the "ideal grip angle" by Steyr when they introduced their M model pistols.


PS--Rich, NKK in da house! :D

RECCE556
10-25-2007, 9:30 PM
Just a FYI w/ respect to the Steyrs:
For me, it's more about the ergonomics of the grips themselves. Especially on the smaller frames (like the 19/23 and smaller), Glock didn't really think out the grips too well. They just took the larger frames (17/22) and compressed it vertically. That puts the "humpback" portion of the grip too high on the smaller frames.

Steyr actually worked the grip so it fits in the hand better (regardless of the angle). I have yet to meet someone who prefers the Glock grip over the Steyr M-A1 grip. Even people with larger hands preferred the Steyr. Of course, if you're really used to the Glock grip, I guess anything else would feel "wrong" but having owned a boat load of different pistols, I would say the 1911 (not the "A1" style humped back grips) and the Steyr have the best grips. Glock grip reductions didn't become popular because Glock designed the perfect grip. :)

BamBam-31
10-26-2007, 1:39 AM
Actually, the FYI was in response to the part in paradox's "Things the Steyr has over the Glock" where he says the Steyr's grip angle is superior. They're actually very similar, and if people are complaining that Glocks point high for them, then Steyrs will prolly do the same.

Agreed that the Glock compact frames could have been thought out better. I'm prolly gonna relieve a bit of material under the trigger guard on my 19 just for comfort. Also, while my 17 fits me like a glove (like your Steyr and 1911fit you, ain't it great having choices?), I'm generally not a big fan of finger grooves on pistols.

Thing is, I never said Glock had superior ergos. IIRC, I said the XD had better ergos for most people. Despite that, there still isn't a polymer offering that out-sells Glock, nor will there be in the foreseeable future. THAT is my point. X may be a better gun FOR ME, while Y may be a a better gun FOR YOU. That's all well and good, but that's beside the point. The OP calls the new Ruger pistol a "Glock, XD, M&P, et al Killer." I'm saying there' still nothing out there that will out-sell Glock.

A big part of that, I think, is Glock's genius in marketing. No, not the "Perfection" crap, but how they've sold TONS of pistols to cops for years at super cheap prices. So now zillions of Glocks have been out there for years, in service, all the while testifying to Glock reliability. XD's, M&P's, Steyr's, etc. all may prove to be just as reliable in a lab test, but none of them have nearly the real world track record Glocks have today. IOW, Glock reliabilty is a KNOWN AND PROVEN QUANTITY in people's minds, akin to the AK. Even self-professed Glock haters have to concede Glocks' reliability. Ruger may be "aggressively" marketing their new pistol now, but they have a hell of a lot of catching up to do.

I'm actually very curious about the Steyrs. I've owned and/or shot Glocks, XD's, USP's, S&W's, Rugers, Walthers, etc., but have yet to shoot a Steyr. It's not really high on my want list because of the sights (and because the polymer niche in my collection is already filled nicely by my XD and Glocks), but I want to try one nonetheless. :)

paradox
10-26-2007, 8:25 AM
Actually, the FYI was in response to the part in paradox's "Things the Steyr has over the Glock" where he says the Steyr's grip angle is superior. They're actually very similar, and if people are complaining that Glocks point high for them, then Steyrs will prolly do the same.

Judge for yourself:

Steyr v. 1911
http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/7149/steyrv19112vy0.jpg

Steyr v. Glock
http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/6435/steyrvglocksg6.jpg



I'm actually very curious about the Steyrs. I've owned and/or shot Glocks, XD's, USP's, S&W's, Rugers, Walthers, etc., but have yet to shoot a Steyr. It's not really high on my want list because of the sights

You can get tritium 3-dot sights for the Steyr if the tri-traps bug you...

BamBam-31
10-26-2007, 12:10 PM
Aside from a slight difference in the backstrap, the Steyr and Glock look like they'd point similarly (definitely higher than the 1911). If you have both, can you compare? Also, how's the trigger reset on the Steyrs? I've got a www.triggerkit.com set-up in my G17, and it's got a fantastic pull and reset. Are the tritium sights trapezoidal as well, or are they squared up? For me, the Dawson Precison FO front and Heinie rear on my G17 are just about the best in terms of sight picture.

Exiledviking
10-26-2007, 12:47 PM
I have shot the Steyr and it points like a Glock!

Nice pistol, my biggest gripe with it is the trigger reset is VERY soft. With the Glock and the 1911s, I can feel when the trigger is reset, not so with the Steyr. I end up going almost all the way forward with the trigger on the Steyr.

RECCE556
10-28-2007, 4:14 AM
The Glock's backstrap is what kills it for me (I also dislike 1911's with the "A1" style mainspring housings). Another thing that is nice about the Steyr is how deep the top of the grip is.

EV is correct about the trigger reset. If you're a disco-rider, the Steyr will take a little getting used to as it is very soft.

I have to say, after gripping all three guns one right after another just now, I would say that for me, the Steyr is the best. Then the 1911, then the Glock 23. The Glock 22/17's do have a decent grip though since the "hump" is further down.