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View Full Version : Does Sniper's Hide have attitude?


PistolPete75
10-16-2007, 8:50 PM
I didn't mean to cause any trouble, but you guys know I have to speak my mind.

Read this thread. Let me know what you guys think.

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=338466#Post338466

.22guy
10-16-2007, 9:08 PM
Sounds kinda mall ninja to me......

PistolPete75
10-16-2007, 9:18 PM
point i was coming across is that that tactical/ precision shooting is just that, not going out and killing people. it's a sport, not something that only a certain type of people or class or race can only do. shoot if it was limited to only real snipers, i don't think there would be anyone shooting in this discipline since they would all be in "active" duty!

CavTrooper
10-16-2007, 9:26 PM
SNIPERS hide... for TACTICAL marksmen. Some folks can get along there because they know how to act, speak out of turn and theyll show you the door quick. If its serious target shooting youre into there always benchrestshooters and sites like that.

Prc329
10-16-2007, 9:27 PM
I only really spend time in a couple of forums. The optic, rifle and reloading forum. I do see a sort of attitude like the hatred of Savage, etc but that was a little ridiculous. He could have phrased that much better without sounding like an ***.

socalguns
10-16-2007, 9:29 PM
everybody has attitude :) isn't this offtopic?

Timberwolf
10-16-2007, 9:35 PM
Pete you're missing the point of the post on SH - its not about our sport per se. Being a "sniper" or "tactical" is cool these days and a lot of people go out buy a rig and suddenly they're a "sniper" or they went to this and that "sniper school" or they were with such and such securty company when in reality they're posing cyper commandos. The term "sniper" is a job description (just like the term "paralegal") that encumbasses a whole lot more than just shooting.

SH has as members quite a few present, former or retired LE or Military people who have or have had that job description and they are generally not very tolerant of posers (mall ninjas) nor should they be. (You know a couple of people in that catagory and may not realize it) NOMAD was blowing a rant nothing more nothing less.

No attitude there

PistolPete75
10-16-2007, 9:42 PM
Pete you're missing the point of the post on SH - its not about our sport per se. Being a "sniper" or "tactical" is cool these days and a lot of people go out buy a rig and suddenly they're a "sniper" or they went to this and that "sniper school" or they were with such and such securty company when in reality they're posing cyper commandos. The term "sniper" is a job description (just like the term "paralegal") that encumbasses a whole lot more than just shooting.

SH has as members quite a few present, former or retired LE or Military people who have or have had that job description and they are generally not very tolerant of posers (mall ninjas) nor should they be. (You know a couple of people in that catagory and may not realize it) NOMAD was blowing a rant nothing more nothing less.

No attitude there

I completely understand where your coming from. Point is, there are some people like me who likes to shoot for fun. I took it as, the post was saying anyone that is not an "official" sniper are a bunch of idiots. He doesn't understand, shooting is shooting weather your shooting a .22pistol or a .308 sniper type rifle. If someone likes precision tactical type shooting, does that make him a mall ninja or someone like really likes the "sport?"

i'm not training to kill someone. frankly no. just want to hit unknown distances with precision.

remember, when you and Bob asked me what i liked about the first match? what i said, where that most of the guys were really cool and were willing to help you out.

comments like that (on sh) if i heard that from you would have turned me off in a second.

i'm not in it to be a sniper. i've never said to anyone that i was a sniper. but i do like tactical/ precision shooting.

i got it, that is where the difference lies. there is a difference with being a sniper and a tactical/ precision shooter not just being politically correct.

***deleted, no harm, no foul

Cypriss32
10-16-2007, 9:51 PM
Yes it does, but they say the same about all calguns gunners.
Ive heard they are a bunch of computer comandos. Im just throwing it out there. This elitest attitude is world wide, and pete you are no different then me. We both live in Valencia/stevenson ranch/Sand Canyon area, we are elitest too brother.

PistolPete75
10-16-2007, 9:56 PM
it's a difinition, and what sniper's hide is meant for. i can respect that, but in return they should respect guys that just like to shoot in precision/ tactical shooting or whatever you want to call it.

they should say - Sniper's Hide for Authentic Snipers (not tactical/ precision shooters) would be more in the line.

Cypriss32
10-16-2007, 9:57 PM
percision shooters are very anel about what they shoot and how they reload their ammo.i know one guy who keeps records of when he cleans his guns how many rounds what rounds what powder how many rounds inbetween cleaning air temp

I happin to be like this myself. I got really anal last week. I got some elite books from One of out members and i can keep a better acount of this now. Im no sniper/ nor do i think i am. It so happins the rifles that they use suit my shooting needs and wants perfictly. Thats the reason why I have this kind of equipment. F-Class AKA belley Bench rest has been looking very tempting these last few weeks. Gota get the saleen/cobra before I buy anymore equipment thow.

PistolPete75
10-16-2007, 9:58 PM
i'll leave at that. you guys know i always gotta put in my two cents!

Timberwolf
10-16-2007, 10:07 PM
Pete - believe me when I tell you that the ones that get themselves in trouble on SH are the ones who try to be something that they're not. Neither you nor most of the people I know in this sport fall into the poser catagory. That said SH has quite a few prec/tact shooters who are not real world operatives. Hell the SH Cup is a Prec/Tact match.

PistolPete75
10-16-2007, 10:09 PM
Pete - believe me when I tell you that the ones that get themselves in trouble on SH are the ones who try to be something that they're not. You nor most of the people I know in this sport fall into the poser catagory. That said SH has quite a few prec/tact shooters who are not real world operatives. Hell the SH Cup is a Prec/Tact match.

if that guy understood that Sniper's Hide has alot of precision/ tactical shooters, him saying that may have offended alot of people that aren't "real" snipers. it's like saying if your not a real sniper, you are a poser. that is just what it sounded like.

it's all good. no worries. i'll just keep on what i always do, and that is just shoot for fun.

PistolPete75
10-16-2007, 10:16 PM
i don't want to cause a disturbance or do not want to instigate in anyway, that i, myself, am posing in any which way.

it's my own personal belief, and choice.

i can learn ballistics from f class websites, so i'm okay with it.

ivanimal
10-16-2007, 10:25 PM
There are few snipers in the world that are trained for just that. There are also few people in the world that wish to be that person.

Using his logic; I enjoy shooting and hunting. I have stalked game and hunted out of a truck. I am a hunter in both cases no less. Since I have never been on Safari I cant be a real hunter only the privileged few can wear that moniker. Does that make any sense?:confused:

I doubt he would stake his honor on whether I am a good shot out to 600 yards.:cool: He should only speak for himself. I am sure a good sniper knows when to keep quiet.

ocabj
10-16-2007, 10:49 PM
I used to frequent The Sniper's Hide often, mainly for shooting tips with scoped 'tactical' type rifles. It's still a good place for info on precision shooting, especially when it comes to the .308 cartridge. I still check it out from time to time, but I hardly ever participate in any discussion.

I've found forums like the National Match Forums and the Long Range Forums to be better suited for real-life marksmanship, especially competitive shooting.

I shoot High Power (Across the Course) all the time. But I hardly ever shoot unknown distance or shoot from an unconventional position (i.e. from a rooftop with an extreme angle of sight line). Thus, the concepts and tactics discussed on The Sniper's Hide are a bit outside of my typical marksmanship regimen. Not to say tactics such as those are useless and uninformative. It's just that I never have had to apply such techniques (I'm not a sniper nor do I shoot in sniper matches).

As far as the whole poser mentality, I do admit I see where the guy in that post on SH is coming from. Some non-sniper civilians go through the whole bit of buying a Remington 700 PSS, camo it out, get a drag bag, build a ghillie suit, get a ruck sack to store their field gear such as the laser range finder, binoculars, spotting scope with sniper height tripod, etc. But poser is probably a harsh word. Roleplaying may be a more conventional and appropriate term.

Start shooting High Power. Get an NRA classification and no one can call you a poser.

Honestly, the only thing that ever really irked me on SH was some seriously anti-Islamic commentary on there awhile back. I'm not Muslim, but sometimes a person can say things about a group of people that you don't even belong to that even you think is just way over the line.

Elarski
10-17-2007, 1:04 AM
I started frequenting the 'Hide some years back to learning more about Precision Shooting, and I believe that's what most of the membership is there for. I've learned a lot, and met plenty of good folks on the 'Hide. Attitude? From some members, sure. But what discussion forum doesn't? Name me another forum with 13927 members that all get along without some having attitudes. I'll admit that I have to wade through more B.S. lately, because of such a high numbered membership with members posting willy nilly with no respect to which category they should be posting in. Every once in a while, you'll get some jerkoff causing a ruckus, pissin' off everyone, and you learn to ignore them, until they go away.

All the 'Hide & CalGuns members I've personally met, or have had dealings with, have been class acts. I look forward to meeting more of you in one of the upcoming get togethers.

rksimple
10-17-2007, 6:12 AM
Pete-don't give up on SH just because of that. Look at that guy's sig, "always someone cheating," or ASC. He complained at the last ASC (where you keep your own score) that there was cheating going on and the winner didn't really win. There was a whole stink made about it in a long thread. Look for it and you'll see who you're dealing with.

You just need to learn which users to hit the ignore button with.

Mute
10-17-2007, 7:07 AM
There are idiots on any forum, just as there are posers, fools and the well informed. I wouldn't let one incident turn me from a forum as long as it remains informative.

Prc329
10-17-2007, 7:14 AM
Yeah Pete, don't give up on it, there is a lot of good info to be learned from this sight. I think the post got deleted anyway.

PistolPete75
10-17-2007, 7:57 AM
Yeah Pete, don't give up on it, there is a lot of good info to be learned from this sight. I think the post got deleted anyway.

the post did get deleted. i feel better now. one just has to be very careful in how you word things.

i don't know if i'll be much of a poster at SH, but i'll take the forum as a tool to sharpen my skills. no harm done. :)

all is good with the "Hide". Just alot of misunderstanding.

wildcard
10-17-2007, 8:36 AM
As far as the whole poser mentality, I do admit I see where the guy in that post on SH is coming from. Some non-sniper civilians go through the whole bit of buying a Remington 700 PSS, camo it out, get a drag bag, build a ghillie suit, get a ruck sack to store their field gear such as the laser range finder, binoculars, spotting scope with sniper height tripod, etc. But poser is probably a harsh word. Roleplaying may be a more conventional and appropriate term.


Crap. I'm a poser :o Ok.. I don't have a ghillie suit but I do admit I try to be familiar with the knowledge a "sniper" would otherwise need to know. I openly admit that most of my knowledge in the matter is rather textbook, but I try to apply what I can when i can.. it's really the only way to truly learn. And if I do say so myself.. i've done/ am doing pretty well. I certainly don't qualify myself as a sniper, but do much enjoy tactical/ precision shooting because it's just flat out fun and because it's a foundation for if you ever need your rifle for "real world" purposes. To add to my skillset, I take my gear (heavy!) to go hunting with and mix the disciplines. It's no substitute for real sniper training because you don't have to worry about an animal using a projectile against you and calling in reinforcements, coordinating efforts, etc, but then again i'm not trying to be a sniper.. I'm just interested in the discipline because it's a strong model to follow. Plus the science/ math is entertaining for me to figure out and apply :) Hey.. it works for me.

I think there's going to be ego and posers no matter what you do. Pete, didn't you used to be in a racing crew? How many punks have you met that have claimed to be "racers" because they had some rice rocket? At least in that discipline you can take it to the pavement and teach them a lesson.

All the guy was doing was ranting.. nothing more. I check out SH and AR15 every now and then to see if there's any new info or new toys I should know about. I'm not going to force you to post, but don't exclude yourself completely because of a few people's opinion.

PistolPete75
10-17-2007, 8:42 AM
Crap. I'm a poser :o Ok.. I don't have a ghillie suit but I do admit I try to be familiar with the knowledge a "sniper" would otherwise need to know. I openly admit that most of my knowledge in the matter is rather textbook, but I try to apply what I can when i can.. it's really the only way to truly learn. And if I do say so myself.. i've done/ am doing pretty well. I certainly don't qualify myself as a sniper, but do much enjoy tactical/ precision shooting because it's just flat out fun and because it's a foundation for if you ever need your rifle for "real world" purposes. To add to my skillset, I take my gear (heavy!) to go hunting with and mix the disciplines. It's no substitute for real sniper training because you don't have to worry about an animal using a projectile against you and calling in reinforcements, coordinating efforts, etc, but then again i'm not trying to be a sniper.. I'm just interested in the discipline because it's a strong model to follow. Plus the science/ math is entertaining for me to figure out and apply :) Hey.. it works for me.

I think there's going to be ego and posers no matter what you do. Pete, didn't you used to be in a racing crew? How many punks have you met that have claimed to be "racers" because they had some rice rocket? At least in that discipline you can take it to the pavement and teach them a lesson.

All the guy was doing was ranting.. nothing more. I check out SH and AR15 every now and then to see if there's any new info or new toys I should know about. I'm not going to force you to post, but don't exclude yourself completely because of a few people's opinion.

i think on the next match, i will show up with a gillie. just kidding. whatevers, i don't care anymore, i just had an issue with how his wording was, so people could have taken the wording into a different context. someone on the "hide" must have agreed with me, so it's gone. if the thread is not publicly endorsed by allowing it on the thread, i'm good to go. no harm done.

Timberwolf
10-17-2007, 8:53 AM
A poser is not one who has the gear and uses it in this sport . . . a poser is one who likes to brags about he's been here, done this or that etc etc when the closest he's been to any of what he claims is a comp game. Believe me I see posers all the time at APS (love to see their face when I ask them what class they were in) and Bob and I generally just laugh as they take their PSS with its Barska scope and proceed to shoot patterns while bragging about their exploits. No one I've met from Calguns, SH or WCT falls into that catagory.

Civi's who participate in the sport of LR Prec Shooting, Prec/Tact Shooting LR Tact Shooting or whatever else our sport is called are not posers no more than someone who participate in Three Gun Comp, IDPA or IPSC are.

PistolPete75
10-17-2007, 8:55 AM
A poser is not one who has the gear and uses it in this sport . . . a poser is one who likes to brags about he's been here, done this or that etc etc when the closest he's been to any of what he claims is a comp game. Believe me I see posers all the time at APS (love to see their face when I ask them what class they were in) and Bob and I generally just laugh as they take their PSS with its Barska scope and proceed to shoot patterns while bragging about their exploits. No one I've met from Calguns, SH or WCT falls into that catagory.

Civi's who participate in the sport of LR Prec Shooting, Prec/Tact Shooting LR Tact Shooting or whatever else our sport is called are not posers no more than someone who participate in Three Gun Comp, IDPA or IPSC are.

thanks for clarifying this up. this is exactly what i wanted to hear.

Timberwolf
10-17-2007, 9:09 AM
Hope it helped . . . anyway I'm working this weekend so come on out sit for a couple of hours and I'll show you some true posers. Like the guy in urban camo, boonie hat, bloused boots, with his 700P, trashco scope, who told me he didn't want to shoot the buff because he didn't bring his "long range" ammo. By the way did I mention that he shot the wood too . . . I loved keeping that token. :43:

proraptor
10-17-2007, 6:55 PM
ill browse there but won't post as the member over there bash savages like they are garbage....its the ar15.com of precision shooting

Elarski
10-17-2007, 10:17 PM
You mean Savages aren't garbage???

I'm just kidding!!! I like Savages, a lot of bang for the buck. I just decided to go with the Rem 700 due to the Small Block Chevy Factor.

I sure hope the 'Hide doesn't turn into the AR15.com of precision shooting. I only visit AR15.com maybe once a week now; too bad it was a cool site years ago.

Cypriss32
10-18-2007, 6:20 AM
I used to get bashed at willow springs for driving an mustang. I guess i can take it and others cant take a little bashing. Lets just take a look at my savage,and RKSIMPLES, his has outshot alot of more exensive rifles. Its mainly the shooter not so much the gun. But that can help alot.
I can bash savages all i want, i own one. Ive owned 4 at once last year. 2 30-06s and 2 308s. Sold off 3 of them to fund my HATECA/Randy/R&D 30-06 build. Now as before im sold on the remingtons due to total amount of aftermarket parts. And FYI no savage is cheaper then an remington anymore. Those that say that are ill-informed. You can pick up an SPS-V for around 489.00 retail. Same B/A as the PSS, VS, and other socalled more expensive "better" rifles. It just has a POS stock.

Dont give up on Snipers Hide, we need people to make fun of over there.

proraptor
10-18-2007, 7:39 AM
ill stick with savageshooters.com as there is now bashing over there...not to mention people are nice and helpful over there unlike snipershide....

Prc329
10-18-2007, 7:49 AM
You wanna know whats funny. My startup cost of my 700 build was actually cheaper then my Savage. The final product will be a lot more expensive though due to the chosen parts.

My Savage cost me About $650 before dros. My 700 SPS-V was $579 before dros. The difference came in once you go to stocks. I didn't want to wait for a Manners or a McMillan or deal with bedding a rifle, so my only choice was a B&C. That is a $200 stock. For my 700 I chose a $750 stock.

Both guns started with a god awful stock. The argument is not really about Savage vs Remington. The argument is what do you plan on doing with the rifle. If you just want a goos shooter that eventually you can change your own barrel then Savage is your thing. If you want something that will have more legs and grow with you better as a shooter, go Remmy.

Look at the guys that are shooting Savages here that are doing very well with them (no offense Pro, you do have some skills). I had a Savage and I like to think I am a good shot but I moved to Remmy. Cypriss32 is a Savage gut building an R&D (I'm assuming 700 action) as is RKsimple. Plain and simple one of the best shooters I have had the pleasure of shooting with is moving to Remmy.

Timberwolf
10-18-2007, 7:59 AM
I'm a Remmy guy through and through but have laid / sat behind my fair share of Savages, in fact am about to add a .22LR one to my collection. That said though Savages are limited in what can be done to them to enter "the next level". Remmy is without a doubt the Chvy small block of rifles, hence their popularity.

Prc329
10-18-2007, 8:05 AM
I will always have a place in my heart for Savage. That is why I am keeping my 223.

ocabj
10-18-2007, 8:06 AM
Could you guys provide some insight into how the Remington 700 will make you a better shooter than if you used a Savage instead?

If I took a Savage 10FP action and a Remington 700 SA, rebarrelled them both with Kreiger barrels in the same cartridge, bedded them both in a McMillan A-5 stock, and used the same scope on both, they're going to shoot with the same accuracy.

Prc329
10-18-2007, 8:23 AM
I don't think the Remmy will make you a better shooter, I think the Remmy is better suited to tailoring to the shooter. My main reason for wanting to make the switch was 2 things.

1. No detachable mag system for my Savage (I know but I would be limited to 4 rounds)
2. AICS.

These options were not available to me staying with the 10fp.

Will that make me a better shooter? Tim will tell but it will and does make my rifle fit me better. Also I always hated how you remove the bolt from a Savage.

Vu 308
10-18-2007, 8:47 AM
Could you guys provide some insight into how the Remington 700 will make you a better shooter than if you used a Savage instead?

If I took a Savage 10FP action and a Remington 700 SA, rebarrelled them both with Kreiger barrels in the same cartridge, bedded them both in a McMillan A-5 stock, and used the same scope on both, they're going to shoot with the same accuracy.

Before I get into this...I did start out with a Savage 10FP in competition so don't think I am a Rem guy or whatever bashing Savages. I personally tell people they are great starter rifles if you want into compeition without dropping a few K.

1. Savage lacks a good magazine system. They have recently come out with a Tac rifle with a 4-5 round magazine system though. M700 action can be fitted with a Badger DBM which gives you the use of AICS magazines which are probably the best magazines on the market for bolt rifles.

2. Extraction system is weak on a savage. I know because I have broken mine 2 times. Seen a lot of Savages fail to extract on the firing line during matches.

3. I think Savages hold their own on the paper but Tac Precision shooting is more than punching lil groups. Nor is it F-Class where I have 22 minutes to fire 20 rounds. The platform not only has to be able to delivery accuracy but it has to handle the abuse we put them through and feed and extrat over and over. We shoot rain or shine in ALL conditions unless it deems unsafe to shoot.

4. The Rem action can be tuned and trued to a higher degree. Let's face the facts. Benchrest guys are the MOST ANAL folks when it comes to accuracy. Now if the Savage action beats out a Rem style action those guys would switch over in a heart beat to gain the advantage.

Personally I prefer a Pre 64 Action like on a FN SPR...which is what I shoot. That sucker throws brass like an AKA 47 and feeds each and every time.

YMMV,

Vu

PistolPete75
10-18-2007, 8:53 AM
ohhhh no. savage vs. remington 700 again.

Vu 308
10-18-2007, 8:53 AM
Oh and the SH does not have attitude. They just don't like posers that talk but never ever show up to an event to put the rubber to the road. Is there a good ole boys club on there? Is there bashing sometimes? Sure there is..just like every other forum out there.

I have met some of the nicest folks on SH. + I have learned more on that site than any other site on Tac precision LR shooting.

Let's now forget they have over 10K members...there are bound to be a few *******s in the mix. What do you expect when you gather up a bunch of Alpha males on one forum?

Vu

PistolPete75
10-18-2007, 8:58 AM
Oh and the SH does not have attitude. They just don't like posers that talk but never ever show up to an event to put the rubber to the road. Is there a good ole boys club on there? Is there bashing sometimes? Sure there is..just like every other forum out there.

I have met some of the nicest folks on SH. + I have learned more on that site than any other site on Tac precision LR shooting.

Let's now forget they have over 10K members...there are bound to be a few *******s in the mix. What do you expect when you gather up a bunch of Alpha males on one forum?

Vu


that's what i'm talking about. all the guys i've meet from SH have been all cool, great guys. then i go on the forum, and saw that post. kindav of pissed me off. all good though. it got deleted, so i am assuming that kind of attitude is not condoned on the forum.

ocabj
10-18-2007, 9:18 AM
I've never really put much stock in detachable magazine systems, but I'll admit that is one advantage for the Remington 700.

The extractor issue I've never witnessed or really heard of.

Durability? I have no experience with beating up a Savage or any other rifle, but I'll have to take everyone's word on the Remington's ability to handle abuse better.

As far as being able to accurize the action itself, I have doubts about any advantages the Remington 700 has over the Savage 10/110 series. As far as benchresting and Long Range, the only production action really being used is the M70 and maybe the 40X. Everything else is going to be a custom action like a Panda.

I understand that the availability of aftermarket stocks like the AICS is one advantage. As a matter of fact, the only reason I'm in the market for a Remington 700 action is for the Gary Eliseo R5 Repeater Kit (http://competitionshootingstuff.com/_wsn/page4.html), which is only made for the Remington 700. Whether or not it makes you a better shooter is debatable. Having a stock that fits you makes things easier for you. But a stock has to be completely wrong for a specific shooter for it to make you worse shooter.

Anyway, I was just curious to see why people have such strong feelings that the Remington 700 will make a person a far better shooter than a Savage can. I'm not trying to argue either way.

Prc329
10-18-2007, 9:22 AM
Only thing I can think of it many smiths have more experience working with 700s.

Vu 308
10-18-2007, 9:35 AM
Ocabj,

Detachable magazine system like the Badger/AI Mags is almost a stardard in our competitions these days. Even the Marine Corp has gone to this system for applications in the field. Our COFs sometimes require a high round count, maybe 10 round strings, multiple targets, and low par times so a magazine is a nice thing to have. + when you get a double feed or a malfucntion in your BDL magazine box you are pretty much SCREWED. With a magazine system you just drop the magazine..run your bolt to clear..drop new mag in and go.

As for those custom actions...a lot are based off the M700 foot print and model. Stiller, Borden, Lawton, Surgeons just to name a few all make custom actions based off the M700.

Ever take a Savage bolt apart and count the pieces? Then try taking a M700 bolt apart. A lot less moving parts in a M700.

There is no need to really debate this because there is hard proof out there in my eyes. Proof is in competition..What wins? What are ALL the top shooters using? What % are using Savage actions vs M700 or M700 based actions such as a Surgeon.

It all comes down to WHAT is WINNING out there, not about the guy that has a Savage or M700 that shoots 1/4MOA groups at 100yards off a bench.

Stats don't lie.

Prc329
10-18-2007, 9:38 AM
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=340225&gonew=1

Wow.

ocabj
10-18-2007, 9:42 AM
Our COFs sometimes require a high round count, maybe 10 round strings, multiple targets, and low par times so a magazine is a nice thing to have. + when you get a double feed or a malfucntion in your BDL magazine box you are pretty much SCREWED. With a magazine system you just drop the magazine..run your bolt to clear..drop new mag in and go.

That's a good point. I don't shoot in those types of conditions or in any type of competitive format such as that, so I welcome the clarifications on those issues.

rksimple
10-18-2007, 9:59 AM
Vu-don't you run the matches in Sac? If so, I'm sure you've seen your fair share of savages FTE. I had to alter the ejector and extractor on mine for more reliable extraction. It works pretty well, but still not like an SPR would.

You bring up good points on the 700 vs. Savage. I do feel however, that if more aftermarket parts were available for the savage, more would be using them in comps. The multiple parts of the bolt add to its allure, making caliber changes a snap.

For tac shooting, the 700 and 700 pattern actions have the following they need to be on top. For f class and the like, I'll show you plenty of local guys that'll kick a**, no matter if they have a savage or remington, and some that shoot a savage by choice.

I look forward to attending some of the sac matches. MarcS came down a few months ago and cleaned up at one of twolf's matches. I may even see how I fare with my lowly Savage.:D

phish
10-18-2007, 10:09 AM
Every forum of any kind of hobby will draw its share of fanboys and bashers.

for example...

When I wrenched on 'stangs years ago and participated in the corral, there were Steeda bashers from the Griggs fanboys, Griggs bashers from the Saleen fanboys, while everybody bashed BBK. :p

I think you just have to equip the proper "filter" to separate the wheat from the chaff.

Vu 308
10-18-2007, 10:45 AM
Rksimple,

Yah...I run the monthly long range shoot and will be kicking off a new shoot in 2008. 2nd Saturday of each month or every other month.

Like everything else you need the right tools for the job. I would NOT think twice about using a Savage in F-Class. I am actually trying to hunt down one of their new F-Class 308s down for the GF and myself. My first ever comp gun was a Savage 10FP...I sold it to a buddy of mine that wanted to get into the game without spending 1000s. He shoots VERY well with it and now has a SPS for the same reasons mentioned above. Once you step up your level of competition and want to compete at a higher level your equipment has to be up to par to allow you to compete at that level.

Just my 2 nickles and a dime,

Vu - Aka I get lucky and beat Mr. Rob Thomas once in a while. LOL I am hoping he comes out of hiding and post once he sees this.

rksimple
10-18-2007, 11:09 AM
Once you step up your level of competition and want to compete at a higher level your equipment has to be up to par to allow you to compete at that level.



For me this includes 10 round detachable mags. I would imagine the 4 round mags on the SPR would be a hindrance in timed, high round count stages. Some match directors stack the deck and say only 5 rounds can be in the mag, must have one reload, etc. to make it somewhat fair for us topstuffers. Is this an issue for you (with the spr) and do you give any stipulations like that at the sac valley matches? Not being an a**, just wonderin'.

ETA: Reason I ask is because I'm more of a run what you brung kind of guy. If somebody shows up with an m14 and 20 round mags, run 'em full, I don't care.

proraptor
10-18-2007, 11:20 AM
I love fn spr's....if I was ever to buy another complete rifle I'd look into those...

Vu 308
10-18-2007, 12:12 PM
Rksimple,

I guess I "Stack the deck" because I do require magazine changes. Remember this is a Tactical/Practical match. Magazine changes are used in the real world. Instead of causing your rifle to malfunction I just ask all shooters that use magazines to do at least 1 magazine change during a COF that requires more than 5 rounds.

The SPR with its 4 round magazine is fine. I chamber one round and load up the magazine to give me 5 rounds total. I keep up with the guys OK and just run my bolt like a mad man. If a COF requires 10 rounds (they rarely do) I just push feed the last round after a magazine change.

Reasons for magazine changes in my match?

1. Local monthly matches in my eyes are training days for big events such as our NorCal Match, Snipers Hide Cup, and ASC to just name a few. Sooner or later you will have to change your mag so practice makes perfect.

2. Practical/Tactical - i.e. you should be able to run your gun effectively in ALL conditions. Since I can't make these guns malfunction on command I just use a magazine change rule as a training aid for guys with magazine systems. i.e. how many guys practice malfunction drills when they go to the range for practice.

Magazine changes are part of malfucntion drills. Malfunctions WILL happen during competition sooner or later.

3. During the events with tight par times it does keep the top loaders in the fight. Not EVERYONE has the bucks to buy 70.00 to 80.00 AI mags and get a 325.00 bottom metal...not to mention fitting cost. As a match director I want to see our club grow and not turn it into an equipment race like IPSC.

A guy with a bone stock 700P 308 can come out and be competitive in our club shoots is a good thing. Not all of us have 4K to drop on a custom rig.

4. I am just a JERK so if there anything I can do to throw shooters off or make them think or make them fumble I WILL PUT IT IN MY MATCH. You would be surprised how many folks fumble the magazine change. + This forces you to setup your gear in a fashion where you can deploy magazines in an effective manner.

I have no problem with run what you brung.....that falls inline with SHOOT THE COF like I design with the rules I have put in place. =)

phish
10-18-2007, 12:39 PM
hmm, didn't Pthfndr place in the top %25 with a 96 action?

;)

Vu 308
10-18-2007, 12:46 PM
Yah Rob was smoking last year at the 2007 Nor Cal match. I can't wait to see how he does in 2008 with his new 6.5x55 with magazines. That thing is a tack driver.

However I SMOKED HIM the last two months. And I am within 80pts over all for 2007 of him. *hopes Rob tanks the next two matches*

LOL

rksimple
10-18-2007, 3:21 PM
Rksimple,
Malfunctions WILL happen during competition sooner or later.


I shoot a Savage...I know...

Thanks for the good write up. I like the way you have it laid out and it sounds like some good times. If it weren't so dang far away, and on sunday's, I'd be there.

Being devious during the COF is alright by me. Adapt, improvise, overcome...

Timberwolf
10-18-2007, 3:29 PM
"Being devious during the COF is alright by me. Adapt, improvise, overcome..."

I'll keep this in mind . . . . :reddevil:

rksimple
10-18-2007, 3:56 PM
"Being devious during the COF is alright by me. Adapt, improvise, overcome..."

I'll keep this in mind . . . . :reddevil:

You already are! Side prone? WTF? :D

It definitly makes for a learning experience.

wildcard
10-18-2007, 4:05 PM
You already are! Side prone? WTF? :D

It definitly makes for a learning experience.

What you complaining about? You did it in superhuman speed!

Pthfndr
10-18-2007, 6:18 PM
However I SMOKED HIM the last two months. And I am within 80pts over all for 2007 of him. *hopes Rob tanks the next two matches*

LOL

Yes you did.

I'm just letting you get close so I can crush your ego at the last match. Maybe with the OLD Swede no less :)

I've got to say this for Vu's Courses of Fire. He always seems to come up with something that will throw off even the best shooters. Firing from the weak side. Firing with the rifle canted 90 degrees. Off Hand from 475 yards behind a wobbly assed barricade!

I may not like a particular stage, but WTH, everyone else has to shoot it too and I've no one to blame but myself if I screw the pooch.

Vu 308
10-18-2007, 9:00 PM
LOL...it was not OFF HAND...you could of used the barricade as support. I was just too lazy to nail any of them down so they all wobbled A LIL.

Besides all you guys are studs out to 600yards in the prone position.

80pts bud...I am going to finish off the season with my FN and come strong in 2008 with my gamer rifle...260rem and 6.5x284