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View Full Version : U.S. Cavalry won't ship CRKT M16-14SF knife to California


Creeping Incrementalism
10-16-2007, 6:21 PM
https://www.uscav.com/prodinfo/enlarged/26857L.jpg

Go to https://www.uscav.com/Productinfo.aspx?productid=8595&TabID=548 and click on the "See Details" link beneath "Descriptions". Is this yet another case of lazy CYA-morons in the legal dept., or is this really not legal here?

FreedomIsNotFree
10-16-2007, 6:26 PM
That is on the ban list....by name....its says model "M16...".

Funny, a buddy of mine has that exact knife that he purchased here in CA.

tango-52
10-16-2007, 6:32 PM
I have an M16-14FD that I bought in San Diego. I see them at the gun shows and in stores. Retards.

oaklander
10-16-2007, 6:50 PM
I found it for 70.20 here:

http://www.shootersmart.com/site/?do=display&pid=CRKM16-14SF

Patriot
10-16-2007, 6:56 PM
AFAIK there is little or no legal basis for their stance.

The only thing I can think of is PC 653K (switchblades), and that wouldn't stick in any court worthy of the name. The M16, like any decent liner lock, is going to have a little ball detent on the blade/frame, right? Any detent or bias toward closure plus an absence of prohibited features = not switchblade under state law.

Jicko
10-16-2007, 6:58 PM
Go to https://www.uscav.com/Productinfo.aspx?productid=8595&TabID=548 and click on the "See Details" link beneath "Descriptions". Is this yet another case of lazy CYA-morons in the legal dept., or is this really not legal here?

Why is this knife good? (I'm a total noob on knives.....)

Patriot
10-16-2007, 7:00 PM
Why is this knife good? (I'm a total noob on knives.....)

Some people like the CRKT M16s because they offer tanto point (supposedly stronger than more other designs), decent blade steel (compared to run-of-the-mill knives, anyway), and dual flippers which also serve as a makeshift hilt/handguard. The flippers can be pressed with index finger, combined with wrist dexterity, to deploy the blade with one hand.

Patriot
10-16-2007, 7:06 PM
Two sites that I've had reliable dealings with have it for ~$80:

http://www.knifecenter.com/kc_new/store_detail.html?s=CRM1614SF

http://www.newgraham.com/detail.aspx?ID=4077

dfens
10-16-2007, 7:49 PM
They are ok but for their retail price I think they are junk. My friend got one for like 40-50 bucks. The locking mechanism is worn needs to be oiled all the time and the blade steel is ok for opening boxes etc, but I would never use one to defend myself. The sharpness wears a little too easily. That's why their is better more expensive folders out their they actually work.

Patriot
10-16-2007, 8:04 PM
They are ok but for their retail price I think they are junk. My friend got one for like 40-50 bucks. The locking mechanism is worn needs to be oiled all the time and the blade steel is ok for opening boxes etc, but I would never use one to defend myself. The sharpness wears a little too easily. That's why their is better more expensive folders out their they actually work.

I tend to agree with you (I think). Please don't take this the wrong way, but wording your post like this makes comprehension so much easier:

They are OK but for their retail price I think they are junk. My friend got one for like 40-50 bucks. The locking mechanism is worn and needs to be oiled all the time and the blade steel is OK for opening boxes etc., but I would never use one to defend myself. The blade dulls a little too easily. That's why there are better, more expensive folders out there that actually work.

Librarian
10-16-2007, 8:07 PM
AFAIK there is little or no legal basis for their stance.

The only thing I can think of is PC 653K (switchblades), and that wouldn't stick in any court worthy of the name. The M16, like any decent liner lock, is going to have a little ball detent on the blade/frame, right? Any detent or bias toward closure plus an absence of prohibited features = not switchblade under state law.If there is any thought behind this -- and there is no guarantee that there is, liability lawyers being involved -- it might be that they think it would be a 'dirk or dagger'.

That folded folders are specifically excluded from d or d, and that it isn't illegal to buy, sell, own or possess a d or d (it's illegal to use one illegally, go figure) seems never to register.

Buy what you want from places smart enough to sell whatever it is.

DedEye
10-16-2007, 8:25 PM
I got that exact knife from Knifecenter.com for $40. Too bad they aren't running that special anymore. I like the knife, but I guess I don't know enough about blades to know better.

Patriot
10-16-2007, 8:29 PM
If there is any thought behind this -- and there is no guarantee that there is, liability lawyers being involved -- it might be that they think it would be a 'dirk or dagger'.

That folded folders are specifically excluded from d or d, and that it isn't illegal to buy, sell, own or possess a d or d (it's illegal to use one illegally, go figure) seems never to register.


That is a possibility, albeit less probable than PC 653k in my opinion because the switchblade laws are more ambiguous (legislative letter of intent, "bias toward closure," etc.). 12020 supplies a 'dirk and dagger' definition:

(24) As used in this section, a "dirk" or "dagger" means a knife
or other instrument with or without a handguard that is capable of
ready use as a stabbing weapon that may inflict great bodily injury
or death. A nonlocking folding knife, a folding knife that is not
prohibited by Section 653k, or a pocketknife is capable of ready use
as a stabbing weapon that may inflict great bodily injury or death only if the blade of the knife is exposed and locked into position.

653k rears its ugly head again. The 'exposed and locked into position' part pretty much makes D&D an end line user equation.

(4) Carries concealed upon his or her person any dirk or dagger.

So unless you carry an open, locking folder concealed on your person, I personally don't see a problem.

Granted, it is overwhelmingly likely that the US Cav policy is due to a combination of CYA, misinformation, and laziness.

I think, however, that the meaning is pretty straightforward to anyone who looks.

Patriot
10-16-2007, 8:34 PM
I got that exact knife from Knifecenter.com for $40. Too bad they aren't running that special anymore. I like the knife, but I guess I don't know enough about blades to know better.

They are good knives, just a bit pricey for what you get in comparison to others in the industry.

IMHO, CRKT charges more than they should for the materials and engineering/workmanship involved. However, CRKT and Kershaw pretty much monopolize middle-end knives with flippers, so if that's your thing....

DedEye
10-16-2007, 9:47 PM
They are good knives, just a bit pricey for what you get in comparison to others in the industry.

IMHO, CRKT charges more than they should for the materials and engineering/workmanship involved. However, CRKT and Kershaw pretty much monopolize middle-end knives with flippers, so if that's your thing....

Aye, I've got to send in my CRKT M16-14 for warranty because the double lock stud broke off a long time ago and a little rubber gasket that keeps the blade centered in the handle when closed just came off. Let's hope the lifetime warranty is as good as it sounds :).

Smokeybehr
10-16-2007, 9:59 PM
I've got an M16-13Z as my daily carry knife. I picked it up from a dealer on fleaBay for around $30.

Looks like I won't be doing too much more dealing with US Cav...

kicker72
10-17-2007, 2:37 AM
They are over priced, I looked at my distributors site and USCAV is making a good profit at $99 a pop. Should be about $75 shipped.;)

Giovani X
10-17-2007, 2:52 AM
It's a good knife, and CRKT is good too. A great starting point for any knife buyer. If you are new too knives get one, Retting caries a few variations on the M16 series. I started out with CRKT and still have a few in my colection they are quality products at a fair price...but you will find it's limitations and just like guns sometimes you just want to get that one so get it who cares what the rest of the world thinks.

lazuris
10-17-2007, 5:50 AM
They sell them at REI.

MudCamper
10-17-2007, 9:09 AM
I bought the M21-14SF and had it shipped to me. (But the store no longer exists.) Folders of any length are legal. People out of state are just often ignorant of CA law.

As for those who say these knives are junk. This is the best damn knife I own. I carry it in my back pocket every day, and abuse the hell out of it. Never had any problems with it. Plus I LOVE the hilt on a folder.

Creeping Incrementalism
10-17-2007, 5:18 PM
I think I figured out why they won't sell that knife, whereas they sell all the other knives designed for one-handed operation: the "Carson flipper" feature on the knife (the long studs sticking out that look like blade guards when opened). All the CRKT knives with this feature have the no-CA restriction.

I got the email address of their legal eagle from a customer service rep, and sent an email with a link to PC 653k, noting that the "thumb stud attached to the blade" specifically makes these knives okay. I'll post here again if I get a response.

Anyway, I decided to order a Benchmade Griptillian from them, for the same price.

They are over priced, I looked at my distributors site and USCAV is making a good profit at $99 a pop. Should be about $75 shipped.

US Cav regularly has 10-20% off specials which would knock that price down some, and most everything else they sell is more competitively priced.

aplinker
10-17-2007, 8:32 PM
I think you might thank them for not shipping it. Benchmade axis folders are just really nice.

I think I figured out why they won't sell that knife, whereas they sell all the other knives designed for one-handed operation: the "Carson flipper" feature on the knife (the long studs sticking out that look like blade guards when opened). All the CRKT knives with this feature have the no-CA restriction.

I got the email address of their legal eagle from a customer service rep, and sent an email with a link to PC 653k, noting that the "thumb stud attached to the blade" specifically makes these knives okay. I'll post here again if I get a response.

Anyway, I decided to order a Benchmade Griptillian from them, for the same price.



US Cav regularly has 10-20% off specials which would knock that price down some, and most everything else they sell is more competitively priced.

hoffmang
10-17-2007, 9:30 PM
+1 - A member here just convinced me to go Benchmade and I'm a very happy camper.

-Gene

M. Sage
10-18-2007, 1:54 PM
A: It's legal, dunno why US Cav won't sell them here.

B: The CRKT is not worth $80. The liner lock is so weak they felt the need to reinforce it (with an extra lock, instead of fixing it the right way), among other things. Oh, and it's made in China. I got an EDC M16 for $20 and thought that was a fair price. Any more and I'd have sent it back for a refund.

Patriot
10-18-2007, 5:08 PM
The liner lock is so weak they felt the need to reinforce it (with an extra lock, instead of fixing it the right way), among other things.

Auto LAWKS :rolleyes:

M. Sage
10-18-2007, 7:25 PM
Yep. They call it Auto LAWKS, I call it a bandaid over a poor-quality liner lock.

Creeping Incrementalism
10-20-2007, 10:32 PM
Oh, and it's made in China.

It is actually Taiwan. Just like red box Benchmade.

wutzu
10-21-2007, 12:32 AM
I've never liked CRKT knives. Their locking liners have a tendency to "stick" in the locked position if the knife is opened with what i consider to be a moderate amount of force. I wouldn't pay more than about 40 bucks for one. For 80 bucks, you can get a Benchmade Griptilian with the axis lock.

EricCartmann
10-21-2007, 8:34 AM
I Paid $75 for it about 2 years ago. It has served me well and has done every job I have asked it to do.

ravenbkp
10-21-2007, 9:14 PM
They pulled this on me as well. The knife was an Cammilus assited opener. I did not even bother to argue. Have not done business with them since nor will I.

BP AF6DI

trashman
10-22-2007, 7:56 PM
They sell 'em at Cheaperthandirt, too. I've been a fan of the M16 (drop point w/ aluminum handles) for years. At $40 or so, it's a great, solid little knife -- lightweight and strong - perfect for backpacking. Hell, a swiss army knife costs that much and the blades on those suckers are almost disposable.

--Neill

M. Sage
10-22-2007, 9:03 PM
It is actually Taiwan. Just like red box Benchmade.

Blade on mine says "China." It's not the SF, though. :confused:

Creeping Incrementalism
10-23-2007, 4:28 AM
Blade on mine says "China." It's not the SF, though. :confused:

Strage, I read that they were all made in Taiwan.

Anyway, it looks like their legal person ignored my email asking them about it (or else is really behind, but I'm not holding my breath). What is irritating is that an item that was in-stock when I placed my order (pair of pants), is now out of stock in the time I spent dealing with this and changing my knife to a Benchmade. So even though I had the pants reserved as part of my order, they sold it anyway.

mike100
10-23-2007, 7:54 AM
I had one of the $39 CRKT knives and I thought it was really nice. I'm totally not a knife person though so I was impressed that it was sharp and felt well made. Don't know how long it would have held up as I left it in China and may never get a chance to retrieve it.

M. Sage
10-23-2007, 5:18 PM
Strage, I read that they were all made in Taiwan.

Anyway, it looks like their legal person ignored my email asking them about it (or else is really behind, but I'm not holding my breath). What is irritating is that an item that was in-stock when I placed my order (pair of pants), is now out of stock in the time I spent dealing with this and changing my knife to a Benchmade. So even though I had the pants reserved as part of my order, they sold it anyway.

I can't find it right now to double-check (which kind of tells you something, really...), but I'm 99% sure my blade said "China" on it.

internet_user
10-23-2007, 5:54 PM
http://www.google.com/products?q=M16-14SF&oe=utf-8&scoring=p

just4fun63
10-24-2007, 4:58 PM
Got a M16-14zfs in my pocket right now and have been using it daily for about 2 years. Has held up very well, pocket clip fell off once and they send me a new one no charge. Blade says Taiwan. If you snap it open fast the liner lock is hard to release. paid about $40 at a flea market type seller.

:cool:

Creeping Incrementalism
10-24-2007, 5:17 PM
Thanks for the links for the CRKT M16-14SF knife everyone, but the Benchmade I substituted is here and I am very impressed. I've never felt an edge like that straight from the factory. I don't know if I have the talent/tools to get it that sharp again myself, so I'm almost afraid to use it. Though I see they offer a $5 sharpening service. The folding action also feels great. I have only modest experience with knives, and just a little with higher-end ones, so maybe some of it is just my first time with high quality. The only other higher-end knife I have is a serrated kitchen blade from Solingen, Germany, that I keep sharp enough that a scab doesn't even form with I cut myself because the cut is so narrow. It bleeds, but once I wash it off no scab will form.

Another product I got in the same order I'm impressed with is Underarmor sweat-wicking boxer shorts. No more wet crotch from ballsweat. :)

Patriot
10-24-2007, 6:35 PM
Thanks for the links for the CRKT M16-14SF knife everyone, but the Benchmade I substituted is here and I am very impressed. I've never felt an edge like that straight from the factory. I don't know if I have the talent/tools to get it that sharp again myself, so I'm almost afraid to use it. Though I see they offer a $5 sharpening service. The folding action also feels great. I have only modest experience with knives, and just a little with higher-end ones, so maybe some of it is just my first time with high quality. The only other higher-end knife I have is a serrated kitchen blade from Solingen, Germany, that I keep sharp enough that a scab doesn't even form with I cut myself because the cut is so narrow. It bleeds, but once I wash it off no scab will form.

Congrats.

New Graham Knives ships a little box of bandaids with every order, which I find hilarious :D