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FongP
10-14-2007, 8:01 PM
ok, so im set on getting a walther p99. love the gun, the feel, the technology.
BUT, i cant decide on a caliber. 9mm or .40. mainly, it is becuase I dont know the difference and the more I read, the more confused I get.

i wanted a .40 at first becuase its got a bigger round with more stopping power. but then i heard the recoil on a .40 is a pain in the *** and not worth the kick compared with a .45. I would get a .45 but they dont make it...

to tell the truth, i like a gun to feel powerful, though. when I first shot a 9mm, i was disapointed. albeit I hit the target, but I just wasnt as satisfied as when I shot a .45 1911. HELP PLEASE!

btw, i did about 2 hours of searching, so dont knock me.

Gnote
10-14-2007, 8:34 PM
Had both the P99 in 40 and 9mm. We ended up trading the 40 for a couple of reasons. The main reason was that neither he or I liked the recoil. I don't mind shooting more powerful ammunition and we have other pistols in 40 and 45. It's hard to describe but the best I can come up with was it is way too snappy. We both caught ourselves flinching when shooting it too long.

The 9mm is much more enjoyable to shoot. The ammunition cost for 9mm is also cheaper too. That wasn't a factor for us but may be a factor for you.

To give you an idea of how much we liked the 9mm, we started with the 9mm version b/c he is a big Bond fan. Only after finding out how much we liked the 9mm, we then bought the 40.

We did a lot of research too. One thing we came across was that there was an issue with the P99 rail when attaching a light to it. The recoil was so abusive, the light would damage the rail after a while. Its been a couple of years but I had seen pictures on the waltherforum. That didn't turn us off to the 40 though b/c we don't use the rail on or guns anyway.

Black Majik
10-14-2007, 8:37 PM
Honestly, the ballistic differences between a 9mm and .40 is pretty much nil. With good quality JHP defensive ammo, both will work satisfactory for self defense.

If you're on the fence regarding 9mm and .40, shoot both in a P99 and decide from there. If a P99 is not available to try in both calibers, shoot both calibers in the same platform such as Glock 17 vs Glock 22, USP 9 vs. USP 40, P2000 9 vs P2000 .40 and so forth. You should be able to get a sense of the power increase of the .40 vs. the 9mm.

Lastly, practice is most important. A hit with a 9mm is much better than a miss with a .40. Granted a hit with a 40 is better than a hit with a 9mm. But, if you got a new gun, you'll be able to buy more 9mm than .40S&W given the same amount of money.

Personally, I'd go for 9mm. Cheaper to practice, cheaper to shoot, LOTS of excellent defensive ammo, quicker follow-up shots, and still very fun. If you want a gun to feel powerful, as you stated... get a 1911 chambered in .45 ACP.

Good luck in your search.

FongP
10-14-2007, 8:40 PM
hmm. thanks for the tips guys. i think I will stick with a 9mm then. most of my friends shoot 9mm anyways, so we can always swap ammo, which will come in handy.

anyway, i figure since I will DEFINITELY be buying a .45 Kimber, I can just screw the half way point. a small 9 and a big 45. =) thanks again.

now...where to get the best deal in socal.... hmmm

dfens
10-14-2007, 8:45 PM
I got the 9mm version and never looked back. I'm a firm believer in get it in the caliber it was designed around.

Just make sure to get the DA/SA AS model.

I can nail a head shot with mine at 25 yards, but it's like breathing at 15 yards or less.

The trigger is amazing. Rapid fire and follow up shots are better with the 9mm.

My P-99 9mm is a gun I will never sale it's so underated. Who cares about power if you can put rounds on target where you want them with out really trying. Now that's a gun.

Grouch
10-14-2007, 9:05 PM
Get the 9

Grouch
10-14-2007, 9:06 PM
and 40 doesn't have any more stopping power than 9mm

SS109
10-14-2007, 9:12 PM
I had one in 9mm and it was a great gun.

RideIcon
10-14-2007, 11:01 PM
if you've got a little extra cash to blow, get the 40 and find someone making a 357 sig conversion barrel, the 40 mag holds the 357 sig ammo and its got much more stopping power than the 40, if you dont want that hassle, get the 9,
the 40 sucks...
the titanium slide is cool tho!

Leo762
10-15-2007, 11:10 AM
i guess ill go against the grain here, i would get a .40, i never shot a p99 in any caliber but a .40 is a really nice round - the recil is not that bad.

i would try it out first.

then again if all your buds shoot nothing but 9mm...

Corbin Dallas
10-15-2007, 1:14 PM
and 40 doesn't have any more stopping power than 9mm

Really? Can you point this out with facts?

Because Like for Like prove otherwise:


http://www.firearmstactical.com/ammo_data/40s&w.htm
.40 S&W 165 grain Federal Tactical HydraShok JHP, 2/27/97:

Test Gun / Barrel Length / Velocity / Bare Gelatin / Clothed Gelatin
Penetration -Expansion / Penetration Expansion
H&K USP / 4 / 1007 fps / 13.85" - 0.62" / 15.15" - 0.64"

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


http://www.firearmstactical.com/ammo_data/9mm.htm
9mm 147 grain Federal Tactical HydraShok JHP, 7/12/96:

Test Gun / Barrel Length / Velocity / Bare Gelatin / Clothed Gelatin
Penetration -Expansion / Penetration Expansion

SIG P226 / 4.25 / 935 fps / 13.60" - .60" / 16.05" - .52"

45R
10-15-2007, 3:21 PM
I really enjoy shooting the P99 in 9mm, however get the caliber that YOU feel is right for you.

Gryff
10-15-2007, 3:21 PM
ok, so im set on getting a walther p99. love the gun, the feel, the technology.
BUT, i cant decide on a caliber. 9mm or .40. mainly, it is becuase I dont know the difference and the more I read, the more confused I get.

Hi Fong,

I had a P99 in .40S&W. Good gun. Yes, it is a snappy gun to shoot, but the ergonomics of the grip are so good that it is very controllable. It was also unbelievably accurate for having a 4" barrel. I was even able to win my class with it in IDPA competitions on a regular basis (using factory loads, to boot).

I also think that good .40S&W defensive rounds are clearly superior to 9mm defensive rounds, despite what others say. My personal defensive gun is always a .40S&W.

That having been said, your decision about caliber should be determined by what you intend to do with the gun. If it is primarily a defensive gun, with occasional trips to the range, I recommend the .40. If it is for frequent trips to the range for target shooting or competition, then I recommend the 9mm (less expensive to shoot, milder recoil, acceptable stopping power with the right loads).

The only reason I sold my P99 was because I got a Glock 23, which is more concealable, and I don't need more than one .40S&W gun (the $$$ best spent in another gun area).

Hope this helps,

Jim

RideIcon
10-15-2007, 6:46 PM
.357 sig conversion:cool:

Ryan HBC
10-15-2007, 7:31 PM
What is with you guys jocking all over the .357 sig? That's about the last caliber that I want to own. It's like a hot 9mm that's expensive and hard to find.

dfens
10-15-2007, 8:41 PM
Their is no .357 sig for a P-99 and any after market barrel you use voids the warranty.

FongP
10-15-2007, 9:36 PM
dang. well the gun shop has a .40 on special, so i guess im stuck with that... now then... about this .357 sig mod. where can i get this done? how much will it cost? and will it take 38's like a revolver?

five.five-six
10-15-2007, 9:44 PM
even the 9 is prety snapy

Gryff
10-15-2007, 9:44 PM
dang. well the gun shop has a .40 on special, so i guess im stuck with that... now then... about this .357 sig mod. where can i get this done? how much will it cost? and will it take 38's like a revolver?

The .357 Sig is its own unique caliber. It is effectively a .40S&W case that is necked down to accept a 9mm bullet. The ballistics are equivalent to a .357 Magnum. Interesting caliber, although a) it is uncommon, and therefore ammo is expensive, and b) it is known for having a loud report and significant muzzle blast (just like the .357 Mag). Supposedly, it is now used by the Secret Service as well as one or two State Police agencies.

If you have a .40 S&W P99, then all you would need is the .357 Sig barrel. I believe that you could even use the .40 S&W mags.

Now, having said that, I wasn't even aware that a .357 Sig barrel is available for the P99.

-Jim

aplinker
10-15-2007, 10:15 PM
This thread gave me a headache...

First off the question of 9mm vs. .40 has been done to death. The bottom line is, sure, the .40 has a bit more energy and mass than 9mm, but in most all of the real world data the difference is small. Even Corbin Dallas' so-called proof of a difference, IMHO, shows just the opposite! Those are all identical within a few percent (certainly less than 10%).

Cost of ammo is about 25% higher for .40 over 9mm.

The .40 round is a bit snappier, but with any full-size gun it is completely manageable.

.357Sig is a toy for handgunners to play around with. It's an expensive round with arguably a tiny increase in the rounds' performance. Real world data is insufficient to conclude any difference. A big flash and bang is fun at the range, though. The ammo is about 100% more than 9mm. Putting a Sig barrel in a P99 apparently voids the warranty.

I'll add my bias here, though. If I were you I would try the Sig P226 and compare. It's a better gun for a bit more money. I've shot hundreds of rounds in just about all modern handguns and I still come back to Sigs. In addition, with a Sig in .40, you have the option of adding a factory .357Sig barrel and an aftermarket 9mm barrel to have the gun shoot 3 calibers.

Slowshooter
10-15-2007, 10:26 PM
9mm vs. .40SW. All of you are bunch of weaklings. I'd say a real man's caliber is .500SW, but since not many of you pansies are capable of shooting only the real man's round, I'd say go for .45 ACP version.:p

9mm version is what I'd go for.

AJAX22
10-15-2007, 10:28 PM
+1 on getting a sig, my dream cary gun is a sig 226R in 9mm

I prefer 9mm for two reasons,

#1 range practice ammo is cheap, and the difference between buying 9mm and .40 will add up to more than the gun cost in a few years.

#2 Just about every handgun KB I've ever read a report on was a .40 cal, I know its ancedotal but I don't feel as comfortable with it as I do with 9mm

Comparing the difference in lethality between a single round of 9mm and a single round of .40 is an assinine proposition IMHO, because I'm not going to limit myself to one round, If I've got 15 or 17 or 33 rounds I'm going to use as many as I need untill they cease to be a threat or stop twitching (whichever comes first). With amost any autoloader its not hard to get four or five casings in the air at the same time with every round impacting insided a 10 inch circle at pistol range.

Grouch
10-15-2007, 11:16 PM
Really? Can you point this out with facts?

Because Like for Like prove otherwise:


http://www.firearmstactical.com/ammo_data/40s&w.htm
.40 S&W 165 grain Federal Tactical HydraShok JHP, 2/27/97:

Test Gun / Barrel Length / Velocity / Bare Gelatin / Clothed Gelatin
Penetration -Expansion / Penetration Expansion
H&K USP / 4 / 1007 fps / 13.85" - 0.62" / 15.15" - 0.64"

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


http://www.firearmstactical.com/ammo_data/9mm.htm
9mm 147 grain Federal Tactical HydraShok JHP, 7/12/96:

Test Gun / Barrel Length / Velocity / Bare Gelatin / Clothed Gelatin
Penetration -Expansion / Penetration Expansion

SIG P226 / 4.25 / 935 fps / 13.60" - .60" / 16.05" - .52"

um you know you just proved my point correct?

9mm penetrated deeper than the .40 in the clothed penetration and was just .12 of an inch in difference in expansion. Bear Gelatin test are almost identical.

aplinker
10-15-2007, 11:39 PM
Bear Gelatin test are almost identical.

Everyone has room for Bear Jell-O

Grouch
10-15-2007, 11:48 PM
Everyone has room for Bear Jell-O

It's a little gamy but you get used to it.

FongP
10-15-2007, 11:56 PM
hmm, i shot the sig, and it was a really impressive gun. felt good, smooth, good action and all that good stuff. BUT, i just didnt feel that it was for me. on the other hand, the p99 i loved. from the moment i held it, i knew i had to have one. weird, but thats just how it goes sometimes. kinda like women...

Gryff
10-16-2007, 12:00 AM
First off the question of 9mm vs. .40 has been done to death.

Very true. And as a result, the .40S&W is the most widely issued caliber among US law enforcement agencies.

Using numbers from Federal's website, the .40S&W offers 12% more energy, bleeds energy more slowly over distance, and is less affected by crosswinds than the 9mm.

For defense, the .40S&W is a better round. That is not to say that the 9mm is worthless, but it is inferior in a head-to-head comparison.

Comparing the difference in lethality between a single round of 9mm and a single round of .40 is an assinine proposition IMHO, because I'm not going to limit myself to one round, If I've got 15 or 17 or 33 rounds I'm going to use as many as I need untill they cease to be a threat or stop twitching (whichever comes first). With amost any autoloader its not hard to get four or five casings in the air at the same time with every round impacting insided a 10 inch circle at pistol range.

So you are a spray and pray kind of guy, eh? Personally, less is better because I actually worry about where my misses go. With three kids in the house, these sort of things pass through my mind.

While you may be a Rambo/Steven Seagal type that never misses, my real world includes the possibility that I will be trying seriously hard not to soil my pants in the middle of a gunfight. And while I'm a damn good shot, I also know that I've never had to do it while someone is trying to kill me right back. So keeping rounds on target is not a guaranteed thing.

I'm shooting until the dirtbag stops, but I hope that it will take as few rounds as possible since misses might be punching through walls and into my kids' bedrooms. If the .40S&W gives me 12% more power in the same-sized gun as a 9mm, then I welcome the added punch. I'll accept being asinine if it helps the odds that my kids are okay.

So, once again...get a P99 in .40S&W if defense is your primary concern. Get it in 9mm if you are going to take it to the range frequently for target practice and sport shooting (assuming economics and reduced recoil are important).


-Jim

aplinker
10-16-2007, 12:40 AM
If you're willing to say all that then I'm sure you know:

1.) that the lethality 9mm and .40 show are equal (real world)

2.) that accuracy of follow-up is improved with 9mm over .40

3.) that bringing up the effect of wind for self-defense situations is ridiculous

4.) that 9mm offers 20%+ higher capacity in the same firearms


We could go around and around on this stuff, but suffice to say, there is really no overwhelming reason to pick one over the other when it comes to self-defense. If you're all about statistics, buy a 10mm or .45 Super.

I think the rest of the argument has been sufficiently laid out.

.40 gives slightly more pop and recoil for more money. 9mm is cheaper and higher capacity. Both show equal lethality in real-world situations.

Very true. And as a result, the .40S&W is the most widely issued caliber among US law enforcement agencies.

Using numbers from Federal's website, the .40S&W offers 12% more energy, bleeds energy more slowly over distance, and is less affected by crosswinds than the 9mm.

For defense, the .40S&W is a better round. That is not to say that the 9mm is worthless, but it is inferior in a head-to-head comparison.



So you are a spray and pray kind of guy, eh? Personally, less is better because I actually worry about where my misses go. With three kids in the house, these sort of things pass through my mind.

While you may be a Rambo/Steven Seagal type that never misses, my real world includes the possibility that I will be trying seriously hard not to soil my pants in the middle of a gunfight. And while I'm a damn good shot, I also know that I've never had to do it while someone is trying to kill me right back. So keeping rounds on target is not a guaranteed thing.

I'm shooting until the dirtbag stops, but I hope that it will take as few rounds as possible since misses might be punching through walls and into my kids' bedrooms. If the .40S&W gives me 12% more power in the same-sized gun as a 9mm, then I welcome the added punch. I'll accept being asinine if it helps the odds that my kids are okay.

So, once again...get a P99 in .40S&W if defense is your primary concern. Get it in 9mm if you are going to take it to the range frequently for target practice and sport shooting (assuming economics and reduced recoil are important).


-Jim

Gryff
10-16-2007, 1:52 AM
there is really no overwhelming reason to pick one over the other when it comes to self-defense. If you're all about statistics, buy a 10mm or .45 Super.

Sure, of course you're right. The greater foot-pounds of energy doesn't mean anything, especially for those of us who don't believe in blowing through a whole mag of ammo to take down the intruder (or buy into the whole thing called physics).

So please strike my earlier postings. A 9mm and .40S&W are exactly the same. You know, I think that in the realm of wishful thinking, the 9mm is a superior round. I need to visit that place sometime...I hear its run by Disney.

-Jim

aplinker
10-16-2007, 2:28 AM
Yes, you're right, those numbers are real real important. You can shout them out and make the bad guy run, just like racking the slide of your shotgun! Once you start firing, be certain to stop between each round and give the bad guy a few seconds, just to check if he's done. You don't want to waste expensive defensive rounds on a guy who's still forward moving, but might fall down in a few steps.

Your claims don't hold water and you completely ignored what I said. Kinetic energy, velocity, and other physical parameters of a round do not take into account other factors regarding the overall system (gun+shooter+capacity) that affect the suitability for a defensive handgun.

2-3% one stop shot differences are hardly something to jump up and down about and are arguably statistically irrelevant.


9mm 1-shot stop statistics
Cor-Bon +P JHP 115 grains 91%
Federal +P+ JHP 115 grains 90%
Winchester +P+ JHP 115 grains 90%
Remington +P+ JHP 115 grains 89%
Federal "Hydra-Shok" +P+ JHP 124 grains 86%

.40 S&W 1-shot stop statistics
Federal JHP 155 grains 94%
Remington "Golden Saber" JHP 165 grains 94%
Federal "Hydra-Shok" JHP 155 grains 93%
Cor-Bon JHP 150 grains 92%
Winchester "Silvertip" JHP 155 grains 91%
Federal "Hydra-Shok" JHP 180 grains 89%
Cor-Bon +P JHP 180 grains 86%

So, if it's all about kinetic energy and velocity, I suppose a .44 mag should be much better, given that it's about 40% higher KE? Sorry, no.

Winchester "Silvertip" JHP 210 grains 90%
Federal JHPP 180 grains 89%
Remington SJHP 240 grains 88%
Winchester JHP 240 grains 84%
Federal JHP 240 grains 80%

There's a lot more to effectiveness than numbers about energy, velocity, grains...

I'll say it again, 9mm and .40 are essentially equal. The small differences are up to your discretion.

Sure, of course you're right. The greater foot-pounds of energy doesn't mean anything, especially for those of us who don't believe in blowing through a whole mag of ammo to take down the intruder (or buy into the whole thing called physics).

So please strike my earlier postings. A 9mm and .40S&W are exactly the same. You know, I think that in the realm of wishful thinking, the 9mm is a superior round. I need to visit that place sometime...I hear its run by Disney.

-Jim

Bizcuits
10-16-2007, 6:37 AM
I was actually going to post a similar question about 9mm vs 40... but in a sig :D I already have a 9mm and love it due to cheap ammo, and light weight and follow up shots, but i always have the negative feeling of "will it actually stop them" and yes i use hydra shocks in it. Just so much of the anti-9mm comments makes me worry, which is actually way my first handgun was a 45ACP, which I found to love, but to heavy for carry while at work.

Corbin Dallas
10-16-2007, 8:04 AM
[QUOTE=Grouch;794180]um you know you just proved my point correct?

Right, 9mm has deeper penetration... hence, through the object. I thought we were talking about "Stopping" power?

Gryff, I think I'm going to join you in their world...

Ucla, where did you get those stats from? I don't see a link to the actual data. Please provide these stats.


Lastly, the reason LEO's do not use 44mags is this. There needs to be a compromise between available power and quantity of available rounds. This is why LEO's moved from the wheelguns of the 70's/80's to the autos of the 90's and beyond.

It is well known a 357MAG has a LOT more stopping power over a 9mm, however with only 6 shots and 2 speed loaders, being outgunned just plain out sucks.

Many agency's moved to the semi-autos such as Ruger P85/89 and Glock 17 as their duty weapons. Now as time has moved on and technology has changed the way our LEO's look at protecting themselves, many agency's are now moving to the 40S&W and 357SIG. Combination of power and round count.

I never said the 9mm wouldn’t do the job, I merely posted stated facts comparing LIKE for LIKE round. Carry what you want, and I'll carry what I want. Just don't spew crap from your lips when you cannot back it up with verified proof. Just because a bullet can penetrate jello deeper doesn't mean it does a better job stopping a subject.

If the 9mm is such a great round with penetration and stopping power, why don't you go wild boar or bear hunting with it?

Bizcuits
10-16-2007, 8:36 AM
Lastly, the reason LEO's do not use 44mags is this. There needs to be a compromise between available power and quantity of available rounds.

Nope, the real reason is, because LEO aren't trying to kill people. They are trying to stop the criminal. If a LEO is caught using a .44 MAG or .50 they will have a nice LONG psy evaul all over again. It's called the dirty harry syndrome. Cops aren't suppose to kill, they are suppose to protect and apprehend.

I dunno about the LEO's you've encountered, but its very rare to ever find anything over a .45 amongst a cops duty weapon.

Grouch
10-16-2007, 8:42 AM
Right, 9mm has deeper penetration... hence, through the object. I thought we were talking about "Stopping" power?

Gryff, I think I'm going to join you in their world...

Ucla, where did you get those stats from? I don't see a link to the actual data. Please provide these stats.


Lastly, the reason LEO's do not use 44mags is this. There needs to be a compromise between available power and quantity of available rounds. This is why LEO's moved from the wheelguns of the 70's/80's to the autos of the 90's and beyond.

It is well known a 357MAG has a LOT more stopping power over a 9mm, however with only 6 shots and 2 speed loaders, being outgunned just plain out sucks.

Many agency's moved to the semi-autos such as Ruger P85/89 and Glock 17 as their duty weapons. Now as time has moved on and technology has changed the way our LEO's look at protecting themselves, many agency's are now moving to the 40S&W and 357SIG. Combination of power and round count.

I never said the 9mm wouldn’t do the job, I merely posted stated facts comparing LIKE for LIKE round. Carry what you want, and I'll carry what I want. Just don't spew crap from your lips when you cannot back it up with verified proof. Just because a bullet can penetrate jello deeper doesn't mean it does a better job stopping a subject.

If the 9mm is such a great round with penetration and stopping power, why don't you go wild boar or bear hunting with it?

you really need to stop watching movies and read what educated experts think of it.

http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/docgkr/myhomepage/Handgun_gel_comparison.jpg

http://www.tacticalforums.com/cgi-bin/tacticalubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=78;t=000964

As you increase bullet size and mass from 9 mm/357 Sig, to .40 S&W, to .45 ACP, more tissue is crushed, resulting in a larger permanent cavity. In addition, the larger bullets often offer better performance through intermediate barriers. For some, the incremental advantages of the larger calibers are offset by weapon platform characteristics. As is quite obvious from the photo above, NONE of the common service pistol calibers generate temporary cavities of sufficient magnitude to cause significant tissue damage. Anyone interested in this topic should read and periodically re-read, “Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness” by Urey Patrick of the FBI FTU, as this remains the single best discussion of the wound ballistic requirements of handguns used for self-defense -- it is available at: http://www.firearmstactical.com/hwfe.htm .

Corbin Dallas
10-16-2007, 9:28 AM
Thank you for posting that picture because I want to point this out to you.

I have highlighted the 45ACP 230g JHP track. Please take notice of the area in focus, you will note it is not the distance the bullet travels, but the width of the cavity that is significant. This cavity is the damage done to tissue when the bullet initially expands. Now go compare this to the 9mm / 357SIG /40S&W, then tell me...

As is quite obvious from the photo above, NONE of the common service pistol calibers generate temporary cavities of sufficient magnitude to cause significant tissue damage.

...your above statement is a fact. If you believe this to be true, might I suggest a class in forensic science focusing on ballistics investigation.

http://ag-photography.net/Firearms/Handgun_gel_comparison2.jpg

Grouch
10-16-2007, 10:59 AM
Thank you for posting that picture because I want to point this out to you.

I have highlighted the 45ACP 230g JHP track. Please take notice of the area in focus, you will note it is not the distance the bullet travels, but the width of the cavity that is significant. This cavity is the damage done to tissue when the bullet initially expands. Now go compare this to the 9mm / 357SIG /40S&W, then tell me...



...your above statement is a fact. If you believe this to be true, might I suggest a class in forensic science focusing on ballistics investigation.

http://ag-photography.net/Firearms/Handgun_gel_comparison2.jpg

Dude, the FBI said that. I just posted it. Now read the PDF learn what the FBI has to say on these matters.

On that note you're highlighting the 45. The 9 and 40 are remarkably similar.

Corbin Dallas
10-16-2007, 12:14 PM
If you think the 9 is similar to the 40 or 45, lenscrafters is having a sale.

I read the report, more than once, and I also might remind you that report was written in 1989. Nearly 20 years ago.

There have been significant advances in cartridge ballistics over the last 20 years.

aplinker
10-16-2007, 12:37 PM
I think you mean "terminal ballistics." Sure, but bullet design changes apply to all of the rounds.

The lethality, one-stop data, is probably the most telling there. Keep in mind that's for ONE SHOT HITTING THE TARGET.

Is your argument that no one in their right mind should use a 9mm and that .40 is the same as .45, with both those rounds being great?

That really isn't supported by the data. Sure, the .40 is marginally better (slim margin at best) and the .45 is a step above that, too, but any differences between them in terms of gelatin, KE, etc. aren't translated into significantly higher stopping for the .40 vs 9mm.

If I were offered either a 9mm or .40 in a gun, I'd sometimes pick 9, sometimes .40. My whole argument is that this isn't clear-cut or that you're unprepared with a 9mm.


If you think the 9 is similar to the 40 or 45, lenscrafters is having a sale.

I read the report, more than once, and I also might remind you that report was written in 1989. Nearly 20 years ago.

There have been significant advances in cartridge ballistics over the last 20 years.

Corbin Dallas
10-16-2007, 12:51 PM
My initial argument was about providing documented proof that the 40S&W does not have more stopping power over a 9mm.

and 40 doesn't have any more stopping power than 9mm

Which is crap!

Terminal ballistics is STOPPING POWER. I see these arguments all the time, 20 year old reports and pictures showing how DEEP a bullet can penetrate are not conclusive evidence about stopping power.

Show me REAL current data and I'll believe that a 9mm and 40S&W have the same effect on tissue and the ability to stop an object with just one shot.

You all can say "well don't depend on just one shot" or whatever... but the reality in a situation that may be your life, is that FIRST SHOT.

In situational awareness, if you're confronted with multiple attackers, are you prepared to empty the mag on the 1st attacker just to make sure its down? What about the others? Unless you're rambo and packing 8 additional mags, or chuck norris and can fend off the enemy with your mind, you probably just have your CCW and nothing else.

For my $$$ and my piece of mind, I want something that A) can stop a threat with 1 or 2 well placed shots and B) Gives me more than 10 rounds in one magazine and C) is concealable

So when I look at self defense pistols my criteria goes like this:

9mm:
A) Can I stop something with 2 shots? - Maybe to Probably
B) Does it hold more than 10 rounds - Yes
C) Is it concealable with above round count - Yes

40S&W:
A) Can I stop something with 2 shots - Probably to Yes
B) Does it hold more than 10 rounds - Yes
C) Is it concealable with above round count - Yes

357SIG:
A) Can I stop something with 2 shots - Yes
B) Does it hold more than 10 rounds - Yes
C) Is it concealable with above round count - Yes

45ACP:
A) Can I stop something with 2 shots - Yes
B) Does it hold more than 10 rounds - Yes
C) Is it concealable with above round count - No


Now I locally shoot IDPA and I can tell you that I've seen guys shooting 9mm who cannot knock down the plates with one shot. Not sure if it's a powder/weight thing but that's a scarry thought.

So, in conclusion:

-No positive proof that 9mm is the same as 40S&W in terminal ballistics

WokMaster1
10-16-2007, 1:08 PM
all of you can argue until you are blue in the face. Here are a few facts that is undeniable.

1. Dead bad guys can't tell the difference.

2. practice what you carry until you can do it in your sleep....

3. see one

aplinker
10-16-2007, 1:28 PM
:D Yup.

all of you can argue until you are blue in the face. Here are a few facts that is undeniable.

1. Dead bad guys can't tell the difference.

2. practice what you carry until you can do it in your sleep....

3. see one

Grouch
10-16-2007, 1:35 PM
all that stuff by you


Cite one peer review report that provides support to your claim. Show me "REAL DATA" that says this FBI report is infact wholy wrong, mostly wrong or even partly wrong.

I've provided an FBI report, you've just been posting.

btw - Worthless anecdotal stories of a friend who knew a cop who once talked to guy and said he put 10 rounds of 9mm into someone only to see them keep fighting while his grandma put 1 round of .45 into a crazed man on PCP do not count as proof.

Corbin Dallas
10-16-2007, 2:21 PM
Where do I start:

A) I posted data from firearms tactical institute with results from 9mm and 40S&W from 1998

B) Your FBI report is for 9mm and 45ACP from 1989

C) Your ballistic gel picture highlights "penetration" and does not present wound cavity data.

D) I highlighted and showed you about "cavity" expansion using your same picture, yet you insist 45ACP and 9mm cavities are similar.


Lastly, please point out to me in ANY of my posts about...

Worthless anecdotal stories of a friend who knew a cop who once talked to guy and said he put 10 rounds of 9mm into someone only to see them keep fighting while his grandma put 1 round of .45 into a crazed man on PCP do not count as proof.

Because now you're just fishing for words I never said.

aplinker
10-16-2007, 2:39 PM
Where do I start:

A) I posted data from firearms tactical institute with results from 9mm and 40S&W from 1998

C) Your ballistic gel picture highlights "penetration" and does not present wound cavity data.


YOU PRESENTED GEL DATA as evidence .40 is better. It's the only data you gave! Now his presentation of gel is invalid?

I gave you single shot stop data, but I guess that's not good enough? Sure, I don't buy into it either, but it's still more real-world than gel. The overall consensus is, as long as you're .38special and above (.38, 9mm, .40, .357, .45acp), it's all about shot placement.

Here's your data, again

____________________
Test Gun / Barrel Length / Velocity / Bare Gelatin / Clothed Gelatin
Penetration -Expansion / Penetration Expansion

H&K USP (40S&W) / 4 / 1007 fps / 13.85" - 0.62" / 15.15" - 0.64"
vs.
SIG P226 (9mm) / 4.25 / 935 fps / 13.60" - .60" / 16.05" - .52"
_____________________

Are you seriously arguing that data shows a remarkable difference between .40 and 9mm?

7% reduction in velocity
2% reduction in bare gelatin penetration
3% reduction in bare gelatin expansion
6% increase in clothed gel penetration
19% reduction in clothed gelatin expansion

All of those numbers are small enough to say the difference is NEGLIGIBLE.

You crack me up that you're arguing those numbers are hugely different. Your numbers support the argument there's very little difference between 9mm and .40, but the edge goes to .40, which is what I've been saying from the beginning.

Grouch
10-16-2007, 2:52 PM
Where do I start:

A) I posted data from firearms tactical institute with results from 9mm and 40S&W from 1998

Which in fact DID NO PROVE there was any significant difference between 9mm and 40sw.

Your FBI report is for 9mm and 45ACP from 1989

Date of the report irrelative as you’ve provided nothing that says it’s inaccurate or outdated.

C) Your ballistic gel picture highlights "penetration" and does not present wound cavity data.

Oh…so those big holes and cavities they provide in the picture don’t mean anything…
In that case please attempt to provide “penetration” data of your own. As of this posting the closest thing you’ve produced is depth, which we have no discarded anyways.

D) I highlighted and showed you about "cavity" expansion using your same picture, yet you insist 45ACP and 9mm cavities are similar. [/QUOTE]

Ehhhh no. In the original post I insisted that 9mm and 40sw are similar. You’re either trying to perpetuate a lie by claiming I’ve made this claim, or you have not paid enough attention to my postings in this thread.

BUT. As you can see by both the FBI’s findings and the picture provided that had I been arguing about 9mm vs. .45 ACP, findings between the two remain very similar still.

Corbin Dallas
10-16-2007, 3:13 PM
Date of the report irrelative as you’ve provided nothing that says it’s inaccurate or outdated.



Is this report accurate? The date is irrelavant right?

ANNUAL ORDNANCE REPORT.; Brig. Gen. Crozier Approves the New Rifle, but Doubts Automatic Pistol Being Effective. (http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?_r=1&res=9505E4D91039E333A25757C1A9679D946297D6CF&oref=slogin)


You can believe whatever you want. The data is old and outdated, plain and simple. The 9mm round is not the same as the 40, if you're unwilling to see the evidence, it's your own business. I was stupid to assume you could be de-conditioned to the FBI report. I'm selling all my guns and keeping only my 9mm as its the end all firearm.

aplinker
10-16-2007, 3:23 PM
FMJ ball ammo isn't the same as HP, we all know this, so that is irrelevant. Why would you even bring that up? I can prove Porsches are unreliable and slow, if I put the wrong fuel in them.

Besides, the point we're making is NOT 9mm is superior. I'm not even saying 9mm is a fantastic defensive round. I'd MUCH rather have a 12ga slug or buckshot. We're saying that there is no substantial difference between 9mm and .40S&W for practical self-defense.


Is this report accurate? The date is irrelavant right?

ANNUAL ORDNANCE REPORT.; Brig. Gen. Crozier Approves the New Rifle, but Doubts Automatic Pistol Being Effective. (http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?_r=1&res=9505E4D91039E333A25757C1A9679D946297D6CF&oref=slogin)


You can believe whatever you want. The data is old and outdated, plain and simple. The 9mm round is not the same as the 40, if you're unwilling to see the evidence, it's your own business. I was stupid to assume you could be de-conditioned to the FBI report. I'm selling all my guns and keeping only my 9mm as its the end all firearm.

Grouch
10-16-2007, 3:23 PM
Is this report accurate? The date is irrelavant right?

ANNUAL ORDNANCE REPORT.; Brig. Gen. Crozier Approves the New Rifle, but Doubts Automatic Pistol Being Effective. (http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?_r=1&res=9505E4D91039E333A25757C1A9679D946297D6CF&oref=slogin)

You can believe whatever you want. The data is old and outdated, plain and simple. The 9mm round is not the same as the 40, if you're unwilling to see the evidence, it's your own business. I was stupid to assume you could be de-conditioned to the FBI report. I'm selling all my guns and keeping only my 9mm as its the end all firearm.

You're avoiding posting proof. If the data is "old and outdated", provide new data that counters it. The data you have posted does not counter anthing in the FBI report.

You've provided NOTHING in the way of evidence that support there to be a significant difference between 9mm and 40sw. What you have attempted to cite DOES NOT PROVE your claim.

You have become useless to this discussion and can no longer intellectually reply.

Corbin Dallas
10-16-2007, 3:41 PM
Ok, this is my last post, so take heed and read.

#1 point - Bigger holes mean more/faster blood loss,which means the fight is over quicker.

#2 point - The enegry a 40S&W has over a 9mm is marginal, but higher.

Formula:
E = (Q x (V square)) : (2 x G), where:

Q - bullet weight in (kg);
V - first bullet velocity (m/sec);
G - gravity force 9,8 m/sec square (constant)
E - stopping power on organic target

#3 point - All bullets shown have enough penetration to do damage, so now it's on to ballistic cavities. Out of all the rounds except the 45ACP, which has the largest cavity?

http://ag-photography.net/Firearms/Handgun_gel_comparison2.jpg

#4 point - Data provided by firearmstactical.com (I'll even give the edge to 9mm with a .25" longer barrel)


.40 S&W 165 grain Federal Tactical HydraShok JHP, 2/27/97:

Test Gun ------- H&K USP
Barrel Length --- 4"
Velocity -------- 1007fps
Bare Gelatin
-Penetration --- 13.85"
-Expansion ----- 0.62"
Clothed Gelatin
-Penetration --- 15.15"
-Expansion ----- 0.64"

VS.

9mm 147 grain Federal Tactical HydraShok JHP, 7/12/96:

Test Gun ------- SIG P226
Barrel Length --- 4.25"
Velocity -------- 935fps
Bare Gelatin
-Penetration --- 13.60"
-Expansion ----- 0.60"
Clothed Gelatin
-Penetration --- 16.05"
-Expansion ----- 0.52"


Now, I don't know about you, but 0.64" is larger than 0.52"


FBI Report - One Shot Drop (http://www.fbi.gov/publications/leb/2004/oct2004/oct04leb.htm#page_15)



Actual Shootings
In the authors’ ongoing study of violence against law enforcement officers, they have examined several cases where officers used large-caliber hand guns with limited effect displayed by the offenders. In one case, the subject attacked the officer with a knife. The officer shot the individual four times in the chest; then, his weapon malfunctioned. The offender continued to walk toward the officer. After the officer cleared his weapon, he fired again and struck the subject in the chest. Only then did the offender drop the knife. This individual was hit five times with 230-grain, .45-caliber hollow-point ammunition and never fell to the ground. The offender later stated, “The wounds felt like bee stings.”

In another case, officers fired six .40-caliber, hollow-point rounds at a subject who pointed a gun at them. Each of the six rounds hit the individual with no visible effect. The seventh round severed his spinal cord, and the offender fell to the ground, dropping his weapon. This entire firefight was captured by several officers’ in-car video cameras.

In a final case, the subject shot the victim officer in the chest with a handgun and fled. The officer, wearing a bullet-resistant vest, returned gunfire. The officer’s partner observed the incident and also fired at the offender. Subsequent investigation determined that the individual was hit 13 times and, yet, ran several blocks to a gang member’s house. He later said, “I was so scared by all those shots; it sounded like the Fourth of July.” Again, according to the subject, his wounds “only started to hurt when I woke up in the hospital.” The officers had used 9-millimeter, department-issued ammunition. The surviving officers re ported that they felt vulnerable.

Grouch
10-16-2007, 3:57 PM
the 375sig looks to have the 2nd largest whole to me.

As for your 3 examples.

1) 5 round of .45 felt like bee stings
2) on the 7th round of .40 it severed his spinal cord


THAT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE QUALITIES OF THE BULLETS. THAT IS DUE TO SHOT PLACEMENT.

3) 13 rounds of 9mm hit someone and they didn't die.

so what, the only indiction on shot placement is the 40sw and any round in the same area would have the same result.

5 round of .45 didn't kill a man. prove that 13 rounds would have.

You're argument and evidences are so fundamentally flawed it's not even funny.

aplinker
10-16-2007, 4:04 PM
Again, you're missing the point.

The argument was never made that 9mm is superior to .40.

Using expansion data and ballistic cavities doesn't really do anything to make your point because that data is HIGHLY variable, even between test facilities on the same load, not to mention different bullets and loadings. For example, here's a 9mm that exceeds your .40 data. The point of even presenting this is that BALLISTIC DATA DOESN'T TELL THE WHOLE STORY

9mm 115 grain Winchester Ranger JHP +P+, 1/9/98:
Test Gun Barrel Length Velocity Bare Gelatin
Clothed Gelatin
Penetration Expansion Penetration Expansion

S&W M5906
4" 1320 fps 9.55" 0.53" 10.15" 0.65"

.65" is bigger than .62"


Sure, one shot stop is pointless, too, but the data doesn't show a significant difference there, either.

Which again, leads me to the point I've made about 10 times: there is no substantial difference between 9mm and .40S&W. It's all about shot placement. Having additional capacity with a 9mm might be an advantage. The slight fractional improvement of .40 vs 9 might be, too. It's up to the individual.

Ok, this is my last post, so take heed and read.

#1 point - Bigger holes mean more/faster blood loss,which means the fight is over quicker.

#2 point - The enegry a 40S&W has over a 9mm is marginal, but higher.

Formula:
E = (Q x (V square)) : (2 x G), where:

Q - bullet weight in (kg);
V - first bullet velocity (m/sec);
G - gravity force 9,8 m/sec square (constant)
E - stopping power on organic target

#3 point - All bullets shown have enough penetration to do damage, so now it's on to ballistic cavities. Out of all the rounds except the 45ACP, which has the largest cavity?

http://ag-photography.net/Firearms/Handgun_gel_comparison2.jpg

#4 point - Data provided by firearmstactical.com (I'll even give the edge to 9mm with a .25" longer barrel)



Now, I don't know about you, but 0.64" is larger than 0.52"


FBI Report - One Shot Drop (http://www.fbi.gov/publications/leb/2004/oct2004/oct04leb.htm#page_15)

Corbin Dallas
10-16-2007, 6:57 PM
UCLA - The original argument was this:

and 40 doesn't have any more stopping power than 9mm

Grouch - Why didn't you quote the last FBI statement? Didn't find that one furthered your cause? Yea, that's what I thought.

aplinker
10-16-2007, 7:33 PM
I'll need to quote myself from the 1st time this went:

This thread gave me a headache...

First off the question of 9mm vs. .40 has been done to death. The bottom line is, sure, the .40 has a bit more energy and mass than 9mm, but in most all of the real world data the difference is small. Even Corbin Dallas' so-called proof of a difference, IMHO, shows just the opposite! Those are all identical within a few percent (certainly less than 10%).

Cost of ammo is about 25% higher for .40 over 9mm.

The .40 round is a bit snappier, but with any full-size gun it is completely manageable.


You still haven't shown how the .40 has more stopping power than a 9mm. He doesn't have to further his "cause." The onus is on you, actually, for saying the .40 is superior. There are no conclusive studies. That's why this argument goes on forever.


UCLA - The original argument was this:



Grouch - Why didn't you quote the last FBI statement? Didn't find that one furthered your cause? Yea, that's what I thought.

Bizcuits
10-16-2007, 7:46 PM
Reading the FBI report, kinda find it interesting

one of the comments in it I totally agree with though...

These offenders did not care about bullet weight or velocity. The majority of the offenders in both studies had been involved in prior shootings before assaulting or killing the officers. Their major concern was being “fast on the trigger” and delivering the bullet to its intended target. One stated, “There’s no time to sight up the gun. If you hesitate, you’re dead.”

Everyone acts like in a SHTF event they will be able to aim perfectly, fact is your gonna be blind firing and trying to hit the target, its not gonna be anything like being at the range...


obviously different for trained professionals, but arm chair and range commandos who haven't been in a bad situation already...

Corbin Dallas
10-16-2007, 8:38 PM
UCLA - I was not the originator of the debate, that falls to grouch with his statement to get a 9 because the 40 offers no benefit in stopping power.

The burden of proof falls to him, not me. I have shown that the 40 does have more stopping power over the 9mm.

If the argument is on price, the 9mm wins
If the argument is on recoil, the 9mm wins

But the statement that the 40 does not offer a benefit in stopping power came from grouch and is incorrect.

Look for yourself and you will see.

And the last quote that Grouch did not point out was this:

In a final case, the subject shot the victim officer in the chest with a handgun and fled. The officer, wearing a bullet-resistant vest, returned gunfire. The officer’s partner observed the incident and also fired at the offender. Subsequent investigation determined that the individual was hit 13 times and, yet, ran several blocks to a gang member’s house. He later said, “I was so scared by all those shots; it sounded like the Fourth of July.” Again, according to the subject, his wounds “only started to hurt when I woke up in the hospital.” The officers had used 9-millimeter, department-issued ammunition. The surviving officers re ported that they felt vulnerable.

13 shots and the subject was still able to run several blocks to a fellow gang members house. The officers felt "Vulnerable".

That sums it all up for me.

dwtt
10-16-2007, 8:40 PM
I think this thread has degenerated enough.
UCLAPlinker, Grouch, and CorbinDallas, you three should go to Iraq, one with a 9mm, one with a .40 S&W, and one with a .45 and each of you should shoot an Al Queada in Iraq terrorist. Report back to us how many shots it took to kill your terrorist. :rolleyes:

Grouch
10-16-2007, 10:04 PM
UCLA - I was not the originator of the debate, that falls to grouch with his statement to get a 9 because the 40 offers no benefit in stopping power.

The burden of proof falls to him, not me. I have shown that the 40 does have more stopping power over the 9mm.

And I have OVER AND OVER. Even between 9mm and .45 the difference in penetration depth and wound channel are marginal at best. (according to the FBI report)

But the statement that the 40 does not offer a benefit in stopping power came from grouch and is incorrect.

Then PUT UP or SHUT UP. You have not proved it you have not posted anything the least scientific to support your position. The best thing you have come up with is a .40sw killing someone in 7 shots ONLY AFTER IT BLEW THORUGH THE SPINAL COLLUM. WHICH FOR THE SECOND TIME HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH BULLET QUALITIES AND EVERYTHING TO DO WITH SHOT PLACEMENT.

Anecdotal evidence it the best you’ve been able to come up with, even after I told you not to and you said you never did, but it was the next thing you would do, and it’s garbage.

Try again.

FongP
10-17-2007, 12:15 AM
my goodness... i think i opened a bad can of worms...

fireblast713
10-17-2007, 12:29 AM
lol... the 9mm vs .40 vs .45 is more like a barrel of worms.

Gnote
10-17-2007, 6:31 PM
my goodness... i think i opened a bad can of worms...
You should close it by telling us which one you picked ups. :) Good luck with your decision and post pictures when you get!