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swift
10-14-2007, 7:58 AM
for criminals. After all, they would never do anything to remove the serial number. They would never go to a range and pick up brass with someone else's serial number and scatter those at a crime scene. (Shoot with .45 ACP and then leave someone else's cases.)

Once they start finding cases with LEO serial numbers at crime scenes, I think everyone will realize how useless this law is.

dee-vee
10-14-2007, 8:02 AM
The average person cares more about watching american idol on TV than logic like this.

RRangel
10-14-2007, 8:05 AM
Hey! How much do you think those leo cases will go for on the market?

;)

TurboFall
10-14-2007, 8:07 AM
or they can use a brown paper bag as a brass catcher, and not leave any brass at all.

or they could file down the microstamping.

or they could ditch the gun and resell it illegally, like they already do.

thominator
10-14-2007, 8:14 AM
This law has absolutely nothing to do with solving crimes. It is just another chip in the block of stripping our right to keep and bear arms.

BigDogatPlay
10-14-2007, 8:18 AM
Once they start finding cases with LEO serial numbers at crime scenes, I think everyone will realize how useless this law is.

What cases with LEO serial numbers? LEO's and agencies are exempted by DOJ policy and can purchase off roster weapons. AB 1471 won't apply to them.

Paul
10-14-2007, 8:28 AM
Wonder if these will become illegal for gun owners to have due to construtive possession? I mean how hard is it to modify or change out the firing pin?

http://www.cachebeauty.com/nail_file_114720.jpg

dee-vee
10-14-2007, 8:31 AM
I think all the police chiefs that supported this should be the very first ones to issue their cops new guns/firing pins with micro stamping. If they really want to lead the way to less crime they should be the very first ones to comply. Of course they don't do this though.

SemiAutoSam
10-14-2007, 8:50 AM
The law specifies that it wont be just the firing pin that will deposit information on the case.

Wonder if these will become illegal for gun owners to have due to constructive possession? I mean how hard is it to modify or change out the firing pin?

http://www.cachebeauty.com/nail_file_114720.jpg

mow
10-14-2007, 8:56 AM
There won't be any LEO cases at crime scenes.

LEO are exempt from the "unsafe handgun" list.

taloft
10-14-2007, 9:16 AM
You are correct. The breech face, extractor, ejector, and the firing pin will all place a microstamp on the casing. Filing it down isn't as easy as it seems. As KenpoProfessor posted in another thread regarding this, check out this video of the microstamping briefing. http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=3v_REgdjSxo Also, watch parts 4 and 5 in the right hand menu. One of the co-inventors goes into detail about how this technology works.

bwiese
10-14-2007, 10:05 AM
New slide, new bbl, new firing pin.

A few bucks extra.

fguerra
10-14-2007, 10:12 AM
New slide, new bbl, new firing pin.

A few bucks extra.

Exactly what I was thinking. ;)

Elbowtko
10-14-2007, 10:17 AM
+1 on new firing pin:43:

50BMGBOB
10-14-2007, 10:21 AM
If the gun is stolen, like most crime guns are, they won't care about the micro stamp. You guy make it sound like most criminals buy their guns through an FFL.

I know that any gun that I ever get that has microstamping will only be fired with a brass catcher. I don't want my brass picked up and left at a crime scene.

anothergunnut
10-14-2007, 10:23 AM
[QUOTE=compulsivegunbuyer;791892] If gun makers are smart, they will refuse the California market completely, including law enforcement. Otherwise, this is just the begining of the end for the industry.

That is the real goal, destroying the industry by making it too difficult to sell guns in CA.

The thought that some gang banger is going to go to the trouble to pick up brass cases at a range and leave them at a crime scene is laughable. They just don't think that far ahead. If they did think that far ahead, they would just use a stolen gun.

TurboFall
10-14-2007, 10:23 AM
I think Wolf steel casing ammo is going to become the new best seller. :)

Prc329
10-14-2007, 10:52 AM
Guess I won't be buying any new handgun. I'll be prowling the sale forum if I get an itch. Gotta buy a brass catcher as well if I ever do buy new in 2010.

tyrist
10-14-2007, 11:02 AM
Believe it or not some pistols purchased by LEO are for recreational use only. There will be tons of officers with micro stamped brass at ranges.

Waldog
10-14-2007, 11:32 AM
What the idiot's in the Kalifornia Central Committee (State Legislature) and
Commrade Governor Arnie don't understand is that NOW they have dramatically increased the value of stolen REVOLVERS. BAD GUYS are now going to covet REVOLVERS. Brilliant, you STATE DEMOCRATS, just BRILLIANT !!!!!!

AKman
10-14-2007, 11:43 AM
Being the great golfer that I am, I write "O.J." on my golf balls. That was I always know which one is mine and when (not if) I hit a house, I blame someone else.

Time to start writing O.J. on all my shell casings. All one needs is reasonable doubt...

metalhead357
10-14-2007, 12:51 PM
Believe it or not some pistols purchased by LEO are for recreational use only. There will be tons of officers with micro stamped brass at ranges.




hmmmmmmmmmmmmm, what about re-loading ANOTHER PERSOMS microstamped case? Could lead to some interesting confusion as to who to arrest if a marked case shows up at a crime scene......

bulgron
10-14-2007, 2:54 PM
So have 1911 purchasing parties.

Get three or four guys together and everyone buys the exact same make and model of the 1911 of their choice. Then everyone starts swapping around firing pins and slides so that nothing matches. Is that a crime? I don't know....

Also, I've read that after 2,500 rounds or so, the microstamping features are all pretty much worn off, right? So buy three cases of ammo, go to the desert/woods, and shoot that gun until you run out of ammo. Be sure to use a brass catcher. Expensive but also kind of fun. And, hey, you didn't EXPLICITLY try to erase your microstamping marks, did you? Naw, you just had a lot of fun firing your gun ... a lot.

Sooo many ways to screw with this law.

But I think the best way forward is to go to court and force LEO to follow the same rules regarding microstamping as the rest of us. After all, think of the children....

hoffmang
10-14-2007, 2:59 PM
This may not be as bad as it seems: http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=72049

-Gene

metalhead357
10-14-2007, 4:19 PM
This may not be as bad as it seems: http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=72049

-Gene



hmmmmmmmmm, I dunno whether to laugh or cry, wait, bail, finally reload or pack it all up and take up fishing:(

and that are transferred by imprinting on each cartridge case when the firearm is fired, provided that the Department of Justice certifies that the technology used to create the imprint is available to more than one manufacturer unencumbered by any patent restrictions. The Attorney General may also approve a method of equal or greater reliability and effectiveness in identifying the specific serial number of a firearm from spent cartridge casings discharged

the bold facinates me as they didn't do too a job updating the immortal list and are NOT gun friendly...... the underlined leave quite a bit of room for unequal interepretation..........

Lawsuits await..................May the attorney's tear this one law a new one, leave the carcass for the vultures....and the ice weasels who come out at night............

Prc329
10-14-2007, 5:00 PM
hmmmmmmmmm, I dunno whether to laugh or cry, wait, bail, finally reload or pack it all up and take up fishing:(



the bold facinates me as they didn't do too a job updating the immortal list and are NOT gun friendly...... the underlined leave quite a bit of room for unequal interepretation..........

Lawsuits await..................May the attorney's tear this one law a new one, leave the carcass for the vultures....and the ice weasels who come out at night............

So if I am reading that right, the maker of this technology can not profit from it?

hoffmang
10-14-2007, 6:34 PM
Basically, yes.

-Gene

SemiAutoSam
10-14-2007, 6:40 PM
State law trumps US Patent law ?

Basically, yes.

-Gene

hoffmang
10-14-2007, 7:11 PM
State law trumps US Patent law ?

Nope. Its more a pragmatic statement. If the guy can assert his patent then CA can't require firearms to have the technology. It's a chicken and egg problem.

-Gene

Prc329
10-14-2007, 7:25 PM
Criminals don't follow the law, hence the name criminal. They don't buy a gun legally. They usually buy stolen guns and in the rare occasion straw purchase. Criminals aren't smart enough to think about picking up brass or file off the micro stamp. Hence the reason they are criminals. If they had the intelligence to keep up on the laws they would have decent jobs like all of us.

This is what will happen. About 2025 when the first micro stamping guns go into circulation and is stolen, a murder will be committed that is never solved. The police will spend millions in man hours and money to track down the owner who's gun was stolen. Then spend another few million to fight the lawsuit or to settle out of court.

No more murders will be solved but they will have successfully cost a few gun makers to leave the state and cause a couple of smaller police agencies to have to close and the sheriffs to move in.

RRangel
10-14-2007, 8:30 PM
You are correct. The breech face, extractor, ejector, and the firing pin will all place a microstamp on the casing. Filing it down isn't as easy as it seems. As KenpoProfessor posted in another thread regarding this, check out this video of the microstamping briefing. http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=3v_REgdjSxo Also, watch parts 4 and 5 in the right hand menu. One of the co-inventors goes into detail about how this technology works.

This technology is not so great. I wouldn't even use the word technology to make it sound good. It's basic physics. Recessed indentations that form numbers or other markings on the extractor, ejector, and firing pin can be removed pretty easily. Serrations around the firing pin that leave markings can easily be filed off. Metal can be added to metal remember? These indentations will also wear away. What we have in effect is the same bunch of gun banning liberals jumping on this "microstamping" bandwagon because they would love to have a way to control gun manufacturers and screw gun enthusiasts. The reasoning for "microstamping" to gun hating liberals is similar to what "global warming" is to those who preach it. It something they can use to get the upper hand.

They'll love it and evangelize it because it's just the beginning.

Thunderhawk
10-14-2007, 9:06 PM
I sent the following letter to Senator Runner....

Senator Runner,

I am so proud that my state, my home- California, has decided to use faulty technology as a way to defeat the Second Amendment. Of course I am referring to AB 1471. This bill, in the name of safety, and giving the police a new tool to identify semi-auto pistols used in shootings, will help in the disarming of California's law abiding citizens. Even the dumbest of legislators must know that criminals, using illegally obtained weapons, will not be effected by this bill!
Sadly, I am now writing to all the handgun manufactures asking them to cease selling their guns in this state, especially to any city, county, and state agencies. (Read that as Californis Law Enforcement). If the average citizen cannot have it, nor should the police!

name deleted for post

Mrs Mink
10-21-2007, 12:03 PM
Guess I won't be buying any new handgun. I'll be prowling the sale forum if I get an itch. Gotta buy a brass catcher as well if I ever do buy new in 2010.


I have a Glock 34 on order, along with two extra firing pins. You never know when you're going to have a firing pin problem! :D

Mrs Mink
10-21-2007, 12:13 PM
I think Wolf steel casing ammo is going to become the new best seller. :)

My favorite gun dealer mentioned to me the other day that he doubted a microstamped firing pin could withstand a good day of target practice with Wolf rounds.

I was reading a post on GlockTalk from a guy in Illinois. You think we have it bad here? They want a serial number ON EVERY ROUND there! Uffda! :61:

MedSpec65
10-21-2007, 12:33 PM
New slide, new bbl, new firing pin.

A few bucks extra.Right. The new law has no provisions addressing removal and replacement of the targeted parts. Just replace them with stock parts. You've broken no law. I doubt you'll ever see a newly manufactured pistol with micro-stamping equipment installed in CA or any other State within your lifetime anyway. The designer's greed was their guiding principle. They'll walk away with plenty of money from commissions derived from European and Japanese investors. I'm not sure they really expected California to pass this law in the first place.

milsurpshooter
11-02-2007, 4:05 AM
will see if the crime rate drops.

The Brit
11-02-2007, 8:22 AM
The law specifies that it wont be just the firing pin that will deposit information on the case.

Does the law state what parts of the pistol will imprint the cartridge case? (I originally thought it was micro-etching on the inside of the chamber, but other posts seem to suggest it's the firing pin itself.)

Glock22Fan
11-03-2007, 1:02 PM
There are two possibilities, the generally demonstrated firing pin version and the (vaporware?) possibility of an imprint being on the case itself from the chamber.

Not sure which (or both) of these will be required.

Calguns2000
11-07-2007, 12:38 PM
From a discussion about microstamping on Field and Stream blogs:

http://fieldandstream.blogs.com/gunnut/2007/09/on-microstampin.html#more

"I am the co-invetor of microstamping. Many of the comments are good feedback, but over the last 14 years of development many of the arguments and concerns have been countered by the forensic scientisits who deal with firearm related crime.

As for criminals tampering with the handguns, it is correct, if a criminal has intimate knowledge than they have a chance to inspect the parts, but if they do not have a microscope, than they are limited. However there are levels of redundancy to the technology, even on the pin and the breach. Not to get into specifics, but even if you remove 90% of the codes the last 10% will be able to give you the entire code.

Next the code is linked to the make, model, date of manufacture and serial number, which means law enforcement will be able to identify the make, so they can call and run a standard trace to find that info.

As far as law abiding citizens are concerned the system stays the same and the manufacturer holds all the codes. The status quo is retained, no new systems or databases. All remains within the firearm manufacturers facility.

As for criminals in general, from what has been stated by the forensic community, common and gang related criminals do not tend modify the firearms ballistic signature. When they try they usaully do not sufficiently change the unique characteristics. In one case a serial killer, I was told modified the handgun after every murder, however he never touched the firing pin.

As for the technologies goal: the most important crime fighting tool as we have been told is extracting rapid intel.

Being able to identify the firearm to allow the trace to take place, inorder to find the source. From law enforcements point of view, trafficking of firearms is committed in a set pattern. the idea is to ID the firearm, the first time it is used, so that they can understand the trafficking pattern while the timeline is short and the lead is still hot, i.e. time-to-crime.

The idea is by using current modern methods of law enforcement such as link analysis and social networking they will be bale to begin to focus resources to tackle theft rings who target law abiding gun owners, target gang related trafficking and crack down on straw purchasers who tend to have links to these types of criminal organizations.

As for cost, the process is based on standard CNC equipment. Our latest cost estimate, which is based on our work in semiconductor and commercial inkjet printer components is approximately 50 cents per surface in volume production, which means with a healthy markup by the firearm industry, it could add about $2.00 to the price.

I view this as a white hat technology. Initially when we approached this we were aksing to field test it on the firing pin only, the reason it is now two surfaces is because the NSSF stated that the only issue was survivability. So, the law makers came back with a new bill for two surfaces.

What is humerous is that I have handed several firearms to some very intellegent people and they have not been bale to take the firearms apart. I agree, the people who make good arugments have specific knowledge, but we are talking about common criminals.

I still think this technology is the type of benign and beneficial technology development that the industry could use to assist law enforcement.

We are also providing a royalty free license to the technology for commercial firearm sales, so the firearm industry will not have to pay a royalty on a per gun basis for the life of the patent. They can also come up with their own techniques as well.

I am not sure how this will go in California, but I do think it is an opportunity for the firearms industry. You can believe it or not, that is ok.

The industry almost had ballistic imaging for new guns, and that technology was truely bad news. NY and MD are good case examples of the alternative.

I think many people think ballistic imaging is gone, but the reality is a new 3D mapping system is being developed and field tested, in MD I think current imaging costs gun owners a $20 fee and it costs the industry a similar price to make sure the casings get into the package.

Microstamping is a inexpensive alternative to the whole idea of ballistic imaging of new firearms and since the indsutry controls the data, i.e. the codes, than there is no registration.

As for the arguments of littering crime scenes with spent cartridge casings, the forensic community laughs at that argument. They state that firearm ejection patterns, bullet locations and angles of impact, chemical analysis of gun shot residue would quickly isolate the obviously planted cartridges. But, they also said they are not sure planting cartridges would be a problem, since it would provide further leads. i.e. the cartridges would have had to come from a firing range, some ranges have video cameras and the owner of those cartridges would know which range he fired hem from, providing further leads or opportunities for eye witnesses of people pikcing up cartridages. The other thing was many times by handling those cartridges, further fingerprints could be found as well.

Remember, the cartridges planted would have to be the same make model, powder, primer and fired from the same model firearm. that is a tall order for a common criminal to go find, he would also have to find a cartrdige microstamped.

I also saw a good question on the blog talking about what it will cost for the forensic lab. In general, even if a current case is a cold case, i.e. No witnesses, but cartrdiges at the scene, they have to fully process the evidence. As for the cost to run down the trace, that is typically done by the BATF, they have dedicated teams where that is their job. From what I have heard, they want to focus on certain areas, and by getting fresh intel, they feel they can focus their resources more efficiently to target hotspots.

People have also been cocnerned about the police targeting them as suspects if their gun is stolen. The reality is for instance, if my gun is stolen, and it is recovered at a crime scene .. well no matter what I am getting a knock at the door. However, I would file a report if my gun was stolen, so this woul dnot be an issue.

Same situation if my gun was microstamped and stolen as well. However, what this allows police to understand is if there is a theft ring in my area or to understand if there is a theft ring who are staking out gun shops or firing ranges looking to follow people to their houses to case the house and await a time to break in a steal firearms. It's all about INTEL in real time.

If you look at the bill, this is really a field test. It only applies to new models of semiauto handguns from 2010 on, not pre 2010 models at least that is what I am told. Also, the technology is not rocket sicence, the surfaces that currently make marks that are used for forensics are the same surfaces being used. What is good about the technology is that it augments the exisitng methods, it does not replace them.

Just my thoughts from a gun owner from NH.

As for Nugent, not sure it helps, but if it gets the liberals upset, it can't be half bad. I have heard worse statements from their side of the isle.

Sincerely,
Todd"

RRangel
11-07-2007, 8:46 PM
The makers of this “technology” can put any spin on it they choose, but it’s really a tragedy in the making. Microstamping places an unjustified burden on gun manufacturers, and the gun buying public instead of on the criminal where such burdens belong. Microstamping is the ultimate insult to the gun buying American. Our rights are truly taking a back seat to profit in this case. Proponents of microstamping know it will not make a dent in crime. Instead it is being done in the name of “intel” gathering for law enforcement. What a terrible precedent this sets. It’s one more nail in the coffin for freedom in the United States.

Our rights are in fact being handed to overt anti-gun liberals with an obvious and insidious plan. Any informed person with common sense and the ability pay attention to voting records can easily come to the same conclusion. It is like the liberals and sell outs who claim to be concerned for crimes against humanity have really given up on it. They’d rather target legal gun owners since that is easier to do than dealing with criminals.

hawk81
12-31-2007, 1:12 PM
When are the good people of California going to stand up for there rights? We can not continue to tolerate this.

Ech0Sierra
12-31-2007, 2:33 PM
I am frankly intimidated by the government already and see no way out of this s***.

hoffmang
12-31-2007, 6:36 PM
Microstamping is likely to never take effect in California. I suggest reading other threads on the subject via search.

-Gene

AntiBubba 2.1
01-01-2008, 10:05 PM
Aside from on the firing pin, I can't see how a "microscopic" identifying impression, whether positive or negative, would leave a readable mark on a steel case. Brass flows; soft steel does not.

hoffmang
01-01-2008, 10:20 PM
AB,

When you fire the round, the brass case expands. If there is stamping in the chamber the hot expanding brass is going to take on the stamping, positive or negative, before being ejected.

As a technology it is an interesting idea. As a piece of policy its just stupid.

-Gene

Chaingun
01-03-2008, 10:40 AM
There won't be any LEO cases at crime scenes.

LEO are exempt from the "unsafe handgun" list.


Just the brass from their privately owned firearms

JarenC81
01-03-2008, 7:17 PM
I hope that this won't take effect in Cali, but considering all the other illogical gun laws (and other laws for that matter) that have passed here, I'm not so convinced. Even if it doesn't take effect, just the mere fact that they had the balls to put this on the books is more telling.

I used to laugh and call people crazy for their "police state" paranoia, burying guns, etc... I'm still not there but I'm not laughing anymore.

metalhead357
01-03-2008, 10:47 PM
I used to laugh and call people crazy for their "police state" paranoia, burying guns, etc... I'm still not there but I'm not laughing anymore.


Tell us to those aging here: now while I aint THAT old....I can rember the times of Cash & carry, guns at every mom & pop shop, liquer store, and pharmecy & hardware store. HSC? yeah right......

Oh we've fallen FARRRRRRRRRRRRR down that slope: better get a shovel before they're outlawed and dig before it's outlawed and bury something before its outlawed............... that's what I USED to tell people, now..I dunno between the OLL and more CCW in the state its given me hope--> not enough to dig up the safekeepings yet, but the future IS looking brighter: I pray the DC case goes in our favor.

Blackflag
01-06-2008, 6:46 PM
Or just use a revolver.

AngelDecoys
01-09-2008, 3:19 PM
1. Doesn't effect current production of handguns if already approved.
2. Not on revolvers
3. Sprinkling of brass is now a tool for criminals to create reasonable doubt.
4. Not happy that police might show up to question me about brass picked up at crime scene.
5. Clause in law (loophole) allows you to transfer a handgun from relative out of state to yourself. :D

Bad law, no effect other than hassling law abiding. Voters asleep once again.

Pictures of firing pin and back of casing.

Calguns2000
01-09-2008, 3:43 PM
1. Doesn't effect current production of handguns if already approved.
2. Not on revolvers
3. Sprinkling of brass is now a tool for criminals to create reasonable doubt.
4. Not happy that police might show up to question me about brass picked up at crime scene.
5. Clause in law (loophole) allows you to transfer a handgun from relative out of state to yourself. :D

Bad law, no effect other than hassling law abiding. Voters asleep once again.

Pictures of firing pin and back of casing.What provision in the law is #5?

AngelDecoys
01-09-2008, 5:13 PM
Don't know. Something a store owner told me recently. I'd rather be corrected then wrong? :(

hitnrun
01-09-2008, 5:25 PM
Hey! How much do you think those leo cases will go for on the market?

;)

I sell you some of my brass. $100 for ten pieces...you pick the caliber!:p

Calguns2000
01-09-2008, 5:53 PM
Don't know. Something a store owner told me recently. I'd rather be corrected then wrong? :(
BILL NUMBER: AB 1471 CHAPTERED
BILL TEXT

CHAPTER 572
FILED WITH SECRETARY OF STATE OCTOBER 13, 2007
APPROVED BY GOVERNOR OCTOBER 13, 2007
PASSED THE SENATE SEPTEMBER 6, 2007
PASSED THE ASSEMBLY SEPTEMBER 10, 2007
AMENDED IN SENATE JULY 11, 2007
AMENDED IN SENATE JULY 5, 2007
AMENDED IN ASSEMBLY APRIL 10, 2007

INTRODUCED BY Assembly Member Feuer
(Principal coauthor: Assembly Member DeSaulnier)
(Coauthors: Senators Cedillo, Perata, Romero, and Scott)

FEBRUARY 23, 2007

An act to amend Section 12126 of the Penal Code, relating to
firearms.



LEGISLATIVE COUNSEL'S DIGEST


AB 1471, Feuer. Firearms: microstamping.
Existing law defines unsafe handguns as failing to pass certain
tests, or lacking certain features, as specified.
This bill, the Crime Gun Identification Act of 2007, would,
commencing January 1, 2010, expand the definition of "unsafe handgun"
to include semiautomatic pistols that are not designed and equipped
with a microscopic array of characters that identify the make, model,
and serial number of the pistol, etched in 2 or more places on the
interior surface or internal working parts of the pistol, and that
are transferred by imprinting on each cartridge case when the firearm
is fired. Those provisions would be subject to specified
certification procedures by the Department of Justice regarding the
use of that technology.
By expanding the definition of "unsafe handgun," the manufacture,
sale, and other specified transfer of which is a crime, this bill
would expand the scope of an existing crime, and thereby impose a
state-mandated local program.
The California Constitution requires the state to reimburse local
agencies and school districts for certain costs mandated by the
state. Statutory provisions establish procedures for making that
reimbursement.
This bill would provide that no reimbursement is required by this
act for a specified reason.


THE PEOPLE OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA DO ENACT AS FOLLOWS:

SECTION 1. This act shall be known, and may be cited as, the Crime
Gun Identification Act of 2007.
SEC. 2. Section 12126 of the Penal Code is amended to read:
12126. As used in this chapter, "unsafe handgun" means any
pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon
the person, as defined in subdivision (a) of Section 12001, for which
any of the following is true:
(a) For a revolver:
(1) It does not have a safety device that, either automatically in
the case of a double-action firing mechanism, or by manual operation
in the case of a single-action firing mechanism, causes the hammer
to retract to a point where the firing pin does not rest upon the
primer of the cartridge.
(2) It does not meet the firing requirement for handguns pursuant
to Section 12127.
(3) It does not meet the drop safety requirement for handguns
pursuant to Section 12128.
(b) For a pistol:
(1) It does not have a positive manually operated safety device,
as determined by standards relating to imported guns promulgated by
the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms.
(2) It does not meet the firing requirement for handguns pursuant
to Section 12127.
(3) It does not meet the drop safety requirement for handguns
pursuant to Section 12128.
(4) Commencing January 1, 2006, for a center fire semiautomatic
pistol that is not already listed on the roster pursuant to Section
12131, it does not have either a chamber load indicator, or a
magazine disconnect mechanism.
(5) Commencing January 1, 2007, for all center fire semiautomatic
pistols that are not already listed on the roster pursuant to Section
12131, it does not have both a chamber load indicator and if it has
a detachable magazine, a magazine disconnect mechanism.
(6) Commencing January 1, 2006, for all rimfire semiautomatic
pistols that are not already listed on the roster pursuant to Section
12131, it does not have a magazine disconnect mechanism, if it has a
detachable magazine.
(7) Commencing January 1, 2010, for all semiautomatic pistols that
are not already listed on the roster pursuant to Section 12131, it
is not designed and equipped with a microscopic array of characters
that identify the make, model, and serial number of the pistol,
etched or otherwise imprinted in two or more places on the interior
surface or internal working parts of the pistol, and that are
transferred by imprinting on each cartridge case when the firearm is
fired, provided that the Department of Justice certifies that the
technology used to create the imprint is available to more than one
manufacturer unencumbered by any patent restrictions. The Attorney
General may also approve a method of equal or greater reliability and
effectiveness in identifying the specific serial number of a firearm
from spent cartridge casings discharged by that firearm than that
which is set forth in this paragraph, to be thereafter required as
otherwise set forth by this paragraph where the Attorney General
certifies that this new method is also unencumbered by any patent
restrictions. Approval by the Attorney General shall include notice
of that fact via regulations adopted by the Attorney General for
purposes of implementing that method for purposes of this paragraph.
The microscopic array of characters required by this section shall
not be considered the name of the maker, model, manufacturer's
number, or other mark of identification, including any distinguishing
number or mark assigned by the Department of Justice, within the
meaning of Sections 12090 and 12094.
(c) As used in this section, a "chamber load indicator" means a
device that plainly indicates that a cartridge is in the firing
chamber. A device satisfies this definition if it is readily visible,
has incorporated or adjacent explanatory text or graphics, or both,
and is designed and intended to indicate to a reasonably foreseeable
adult user of the pistol, without requiring the user to refer to a
user's manual or any other resource other than the pistol itself,
whether a cartridge is in the firing chamber.
(d) As used in this section, a "magazine disconnect mechanism"
means a mechanism that prevents a semiautomatic pistol that has a
detachable magazine from operating to strike the primer of ammunition
in the firing chamber when a detachable magazine is not inserted in
the semiautomatic pistol.
(e) As used in this section, a "semiautomatic pistol" means a
pistol, as defined in subdivision (a) of Section 12001, the operating
mode of which uses the energy of the explosive in a fixed cartridge
to extract a fired cartridge and chamber a fresh cartridge with each
single pull of the trigger.
SEC. 3. No reimbursement is required by this act pursuant to
Section 6 of Article XIII B of the California Constitution because
the only costs that may be incurred by a local agency or school
district will be incurred because this act creates a new crime or
infraction, eliminates a crime or infraction, or changes the penalty
for a crime or infraction, within the meaning of Section 17556 of the
Government Code, or changes the definition of a crime within the
meaning of Section 6 of Article XIII B of the California
Constitution.

AngelDecoys
01-09-2008, 6:22 PM
hitnrun and forumguy: I would bet we could open up a little side business selling spent brass online to hoodlums, or sell spent brass online similar to the guy who sells urine to pass drug testing. lol (That is, if one wanted to help the hoodlums, I guess).

Calguns2000
That's really nice of you to provide the law. A simple yes, or no would have sufficed for me. I skimmed it but didn't notice anything that said one couldn't do #5. Not really sure you were trying to clarify anything or just being smart.

I'm glad to know that calguns either has a paralegal working pro bono, or has someone lurking through the site all day long paid to look up laws, and correct everyone who posts here. Keep it up, I find it very helpful and look forward to the next time! :)

bwiese
01-09-2008, 6:35 PM
AngelDecoys..

As usual, the info you got about #5 from the gunshop was warped - fortunately, only about its origins.

The "#5" above (about relatives out of state transferring off-Roster handguns) has nothing to do with the microstamping law - other than it has been in the same body of law in 12132PC (which directs you to 12078 exemptions) for quite some time before 1471 passed.

12132PC in the Unsafe Handgun body of laws lists exemptions from Rostering. Aside from LE exemptions etc, it allows for PPT transfers to be non-Rostered, and also allows for interfamily handgun transfers per 12078(c) to be non-Rostered (and not require use of a dealer within CA).

The 'interfamily' exemption in 12078PC referred to by 12132PC applies *only* to specific direct-line family members - grandparents/parents/kids/grandkids. No nephews, aunts, cousins, great uncles, fifth cousins once removed, etc.

There has never been any restriction on whether these authorized interfamily parties have to be inside/outside CA: there was no modification to the 12132/12078 exemption for this.

Inside CA, the receipient of a non-Rostered handgun (or, indeed even a Rostered handgun) merely needs to be 18 and hold a valid HSC card - and promptly file the reg papers w/DOJ and pay a $19/handgun fee. There is no use-of-FFL requirement for this situation unless the gun comes from outside CA. (Long guns don't require HSC, regitsration or fee - Bill Sr. just hands Bill Jr. that new Remington 700.

If the interfamily supplier of the non-Rostered handgun is outside CA, the gun has to come thru a CA FFL dealer to just keep the Feds/BATF happy, not for any CA reason. [The only exception to this "go thru an FFL" is for interstate inheritance where it's not needed.]

AB1471 microstamping will likely be difficult for gov't to implement given patent/licensing restrictions codified into the law, and may just sit there unimplemented.

AB1471 and AB821 were brought to you by California's GOC, run by the apparently not-too-bright Sam Paredes - who created a dustup with the Fish & Game Commission which in turn caused the Governor to bite back. We had both the microstamping and lead ammo bills' veto "in the bag" (governor leg staff recommended vetos) if GOC had not gone off the reservation on a personal ego trip.

AngelDecoys
01-09-2008, 6:49 PM
Thanks Bill. I appreciate the clarification. Sounds like I need to find a gun shop that is more knowledgeable (or not be suckered).

Unfortunately, and even as I get older (sub-40 as my wife calls me), I tend to want to believe those I come in contact with.

Calguns2000: I just re-read my previous post. I do appreciate the corrections, wasn't trying to be too sarcastic. ;)

Army GI
01-14-2008, 8:10 AM
You know, all you guys that suggest using a file to file it down have good ideas until you realize that now instead of having to match a microstamp, they can just match the tool marks.

Don't any of you watch the Discovery Channel, GEEZ!

Boomer1961
01-26-2008, 8:55 PM
for criminals. After all, they would never do anything to remove the serial number. They would never go to a range and pick up brass with someone else's serial number and scatter those at a crime scene. (Shoot with .45 ACP and then leave someone else's cases.)

Once they start finding cases with LEO serial numbers at crime scenes, I think everyone will realize how useless this law is.

I always thought that more lives would be saved by microstamping people with AIDS.

In a discrete location where only those that would benefit would see like on the ar$$e. That way before you had sex with them or shared IV drug needles or accepted blood donations you could check for their microstamp and if they had one .....RUN.....

I would make this mandatory for anyone receiving medical treatment or aid, (not not AIDS) from the government or any charitable organization.

I can not see why those with AIDS would object. The only ones that would are ones up to no good that want to have unprotected sex with your wives, daughters, and teenage sons and not be hindered by the AIDS tattoo that would prevent them from doing this dastardly deed.

No doubt even though deviant sex is not an amendment in the constitution that the liberal wacko leftist would protest doing this.

The same idiots think microstamping your firearm which effectively drives the cost up to kill the legal selling of all firearms is a great idea.

If these same idiots supported an AIDS tattoo law then I would respect them for not being hypocrites.

An AIDS tattoo law would save thousands and possibly tens of thousands of people from being infected and dying a miserable death while they are young and also spreading it to their loved ones.