PDA

View Full Version : How to resist AB-1471


LECTRIKHED
10-13-2007, 3:24 PM
As I see it there are a number ways to combat this law.

This is from the Bill

(7) Commencing January 1, 2010, for all semiautomatic pistols that
are not already listed on the roster pursuant to Section 12131, it
is not designed and equipped with a microscopic array of characters
that identify the make, model, and serial number of the pistol,
etched or otherwise imprinted in two or more places on the interior
surface or internal working parts of the pistol, and that are
transferred by imprinting on each cartridge case when the firearm is
fired, provided that the Department of Justice certifies that the
technology used to create the imprint is available to more than one
manufacturer unencumbered by any patent restrictions. The Attorney
General may also approve a method of equal or greater reliability and
effectiveness in identifying the specific serial number of a firearm
from spent cartridge casings discharged by that firearm than that
which is set forth in this paragraph, to be thereafter required as
otherwise set forth by this paragraph where the Attorney General
certifies that this new method is also unencumbered by any patent
restrictions. Approval by the Attorney General shall include notice
of that fact via regulations adopted by the Attorney General for
purposes of implementing that method for purposes of this paragraph.
The microscopic array of characters required by this section shall
not be considered the name of the maker, model, manufacturer's
number, or other mark of identification, including any distinguishing
number or mark assigned by the Department of Justice, within the
meaning of Sections 12090 and 12094.

1. Buy as many handguns as you can before 2010.
2. File patents for microstamping technology.
3. Purchase patents for microstamping technology.
4. Start building your own handguns. Ie. 80% Glock kits etc.
5. Buy blank firing pins to replace the one an any new handgun, if it exists.
6. Setup a service of people moving into Ca, so that they can purchase guns, and legally sell them in the state. You could get a lot of guns in this way.
7. C&R licenses.
8. Fight it in the courts.

KenpoProfessor
10-13-2007, 3:30 PM
As I see it there are a number ways to combat this law.

This is from the Bill



1. Buy as many handguns as you can before 2010.
2. File patents for microstamping technology.
3. Purchase patents for microstamping technology.
4. Start building your own handguns. Ie. 80% Glock kits etc.
5. Buy blank firing pins to replace the one an any new handgun, if it exists.
6. Setup a service of people moving into Ca, so that they can purchase guns, and legally sell them in the state. You could get a lot of guns in this way.
7. C&R licenses.
8. Fight it in the courts.

My first suggestion, well, other than running like a scared school girl out of state, is to call, write, email, fax gun manufacturers. There is a huge gun market there that I have a feeling they might just write off because of the politics. If they don't, or won't, take this to court, you guys are so screwed for the rest of the incremental steps the legislation will throw at you with this out of the way.

Have a great gun carryin' Kenpo day

Clyde

mastadonn
10-13-2007, 4:31 PM
The problem from the manufacturer's point of view is that either they

convert their entire mass production/assembly line production to be California microstamping compliant (mucho $$ investment for marginal return) or

they hand assemble specific California models (again more $$ investment , maybe less $ than the first option), or

they write off the California market.

I guess they will have to decide how much the California civilian market is worth to them.

I guess one way to fight back on this is to push the idea that if the police don't have microstamped handguns how can we ever feel confident that shootings they are involved in will be investigated accurately?

Put the burden on the government as well as the populace.

SemiAutoSam
10-13-2007, 4:45 PM
Too bad they wernt owned by Ronny Barrett or someone with his mindset.

If the people cant buy their handguns they will not sell to the state at all including the LEO's and LE Agencies included.

But most companies would probably sell out the general public.

KenpoProfessor
10-13-2007, 4:49 PM
The problem from the manufacturer's point of view is that either they

convert their entire mass production/assembly line production to be California microstamping compliant (mucho $$ investment for marginal return) or

they hand assemble specific California models (again more $$ investment , maybe less $ than the first option), or

they write off the California market.

I guess they will have to decide how much the California civilian market is worth to them.

I guess one way to fight back on this is to push the idea that if the police don't have microstamped handguns how can we ever feel confident that shootings they are involved in will be investigated accurately?

Put the burden on the government as well as the populace.

That and the fact that LEOs can buy offlist guns for personal use. They are setting themselves up for a lawsuit of major league proportions the first time a cop shoots with an "unsafe" handgun that was not microstamped. They might as well go back to revolvers.

Have a great gun carryin' Kenpo day

Clyde

Gmountain
10-13-2007, 4:53 PM
If the gun companies would stop all sales to California immediately, including to police departments, and especially to police departments, maybe someone would take notice.

Condolences to all of us.

bwiese
10-13-2007, 4:57 PM
No gun manufacturer other than a tiny one will write off the CA market - especially not a publicly-traded one.

CA's gun market is quite a bit larger than the combined markets of NV AZ NM WY UT ID OR in per-gun sales and MUCH higher in dollar amounts spent (i.e. we buy fancier pricier guns w/more accessories).

Regardless of the technology's usefulness/reliability it will get into CA guns.

However, you are under no obligation to retain these parts. If you chose to have a firing pin that had the number '6666666' or "F__K ARNIE" on it, you are welcome to do so.

I also believe there will be a "collect LEO brass at the range" project to gather such info :)

There are other problems with Roster issues (wholly aside from 1471 specifics) that will be helpful. They won't be discussed here as we will need to kick 'em in starting 2010.

hoffmang
10-13-2007, 4:58 PM
I had remained quiet hoping this bill would be vetoed, but I'll have a long post echoing some of the points outlined above.

This bill may be impossible to implement through the APA process.

-Gene

grywlfbg
10-13-2007, 5:15 PM
I thought from the text the stamp had to have the "make, model, serial #"? Oh is it just when first sold? Oh what do I know, I'm not a lawyer. I'll let you'se guys do the lawyering and I'll just wait for the fireworks.

If you need LEO brass let me know, I collect a ton of it all the time from Chabot.

Crazed_SS
10-13-2007, 9:07 PM
its easy to resist. first its doubtful makers will even offer microstampig guns.. if they do then simply dont buy them.. get one of 1000 guns already certified for sale.. microstamping is just another lame annoyance.. the whole safe gun program is the real problem we need to fight

Draven
10-13-2007, 9:22 PM
My fix: come up with a way to do microstamping. patent it. Lisence the technology for $1 to the gun companies and beat out the pukes that paid Feuer and his predecessor to propose this bill so that they could sell half-million-dollar microstamping machines to the gun manufacturers.

oh wait...

provided that the Department of Justice certifies that the
technology used to create the imprint is available to more than one
manufacturer unencumbered by any patent restrictions.

With 'no patent restrictions' no one is gonna make money. So, unless this single-source manufacturer gives away their patents for FREE, this NEVER goes into force.

niceguy
10-13-2007, 10:04 PM
The problem from the manufacturer's point of view is that either they

convert their entire mass production/assembly line production to be California microstamping compliant (mucho $$ investment for marginal return) or

they hand assemble specific California models (again more $$ investment , maybe less $ than the first option), or

they write off the California market.

Remeber how often the media mkaes mention that California leads the nation on this and that... how trends in law start here and propoate elsewhere?

Can we expect that THIS kind of legislation will escape the eyes of others state legislatures?

Expect this to spread... and gun makers will have to face tighter restrictions, or jack up the prices of all weapons as they figure, what the heck... might as well make them all California compliant in advance on further national restrictions.

Imagine Arnie going to Washington to give a speech to Congress and saying that this should become Federal law....

Open your imaginations to the impact of this spoor..... open wide and say, "AAaaaaaaa, $#it!"

Cardinal Sin
10-13-2007, 10:06 PM
So if I read this bill correctly . . .If the gun is already on the list then you dont have to worry about the Micro BS Scam as long as it remains on the list. But If it isnt on the list It has to pass the lame safety test, mag disconnet, chamber indicator pos stuff and have Micro-Commie technology?

chris
10-13-2007, 10:52 PM
My first suggestion, well, other than running like a scared school girl out of state, is to call, write, email, fax gun manufacturers. There is a huge gun market there that I have a feeling they might just write off because of the politics. If they don't, or won't, take this to court, you guys are so screwed for the rest of the incremental steps the legislation will throw at you with this out of the way.

Have a great gun carryin' Kenpo day

Clyde

i have a feeling this is only the REAL beginning for what they have in store for gun owners in the F***Kd state. the future does not look good. freedom will die here.

DarthSean
10-13-2007, 11:31 PM
Does anyone know if there is a way to cause highly accelerated "natural" wear (as opposed to a file or a dremel tool) to remove the communist markings in the chamber or firing pin?

Sam Hainn
10-13-2007, 11:36 PM
Does anyone know if there is a way to cause highly accelerated "natural" wear (as opposed to a file or a dremel tool) to remove the communist markings in the chamber or firing pin?

Wolf Ammo anyone?

STEEL CASES!!!!!! At least for the chamber marking anyway. It might not make a difference on the primer from firing pin tip marker if that's where the other one in placed.

megavolt121
10-13-2007, 11:37 PM
I had remained quiet hoping this bill would be vetoed, but I'll have a long post echoing some of the points outlined above.

This bill may be impossible to implement through the APA process.

-Gene


Gene, could you please divulge us with more information?

Librarian
10-13-2007, 11:38 PM
So if I read this bill correctly . . .If the gun is already on the list then you dont have to worry about the Micro BS Scam as long as it remains on the list. But If it isnt on the list It has to pass the lame safety test, mag disconnet, chamber indicator pos stuff and have Micro-Commie technology?

Exactly correct.

turinreza
10-14-2007, 1:01 AM
Recall arnie..
it's the only thing that would be heard in this state..
ruining his political career and anyone else who tries to get rid of the 2nd amemdment

this, along with banning "mom" and "dad" from schools should be enough to get real votes
and signatures to remove this pig

wtf - the Alameda County Sherriff wanted this? time to RECALL his *** as well

Crazed_SS
10-14-2007, 3:52 AM
So if I read this bill correctly . . .If the gun is already on the list then you dont have to worry about the Micro BS Scam as long as it remains on the list. But If it isnt on the list It has to pass the lame safety test, mag disconnet, chamber indicator pos stuff and have Micro-Commie technology?

Right... So like I said, just buy guns that are already rostered.

I mean, the Sig P220R I just bought doesnt have a magazine disconnect or CLI, but I was still able to buy it. My 1911 doesnt have a magazine disconnect, yet it I was still able to get it. That's because the guns are already on the roster.

All we can do now is hope our favorite manufacturer keeps our favorite guns on the list until we the money to buy them.. We can pretty much forget about any new models coming in, because manufacturers have absolutely ZERO incentive to waste money on tooling up for microstamping when they can continue to sell their guns that are already rostered.

KenpoProfessor
10-14-2007, 3:59 AM
Right... So like I said, just buy guns that are already rostered.

I mean, the Sig P220R I just bought doesnt have a magazine disconnect or CLI, but I was still able to buy it. My 1911 doesnt have a magazine disconnect, yet it I was still able to get it. That's because the guns are already on the roster.

All we can do now is hope our favorite manufacturer keeps our favorite guns on the list until we the money to buy them.. We can pretty much forget about any new models coming in, because manufacturers have absolutely ZERO incentive to waste money on tooling up for microstamping when they can continue to sell their guns that are already rostered.


So if you know this to be true, what steps are YOU going to take to prevent this bill from going into effect? Simply hoping the manufacturers do something is not doing anything. Those guns on the roster won't be there long, the manufacturers will make only new models and won't renew the CA extortion money for the old stuff if there's no market.

Have a great gun carryin' Kenpo day

Clyde

Crazed_SS
10-14-2007, 4:09 AM
So if you know this to be true, what steps are YOU going to take to prevent this bill from going into effect? Simply hoping the manufacturers do something is not doing anything. Those guns on the roster won't be there long, the manufacturers will make only new models and won't renew the CA extortion money for the old stuff if there's no market.

Have a great gun carryin' Kenpo day

Clyde

Im gonna buy the guns I really want as soon as I can afford them.. before they fall off the list. :) If they happen to fall off.. oh well :( .. Manufacturers are pretty good about keeping popular stuff on there. Hell, the P225 is still on there and it isnt even made anymore.

Same crap we've been dealing with since the whole roster thing passed 6 years ago :(

EDIT: .. Maybe Ill just move to NC with my mom :)

KenpoProfessor
10-14-2007, 4:15 AM
Im gonna buy the guns I really want as soon as I can afford them.. before they fall off the list. :) If they happen to fall off.. oh well :( .. Manufacturers are pretty good about keeping popular stuff on there. Hell, the P225 is still on there and it isnt even made anymore.

Same crap we've been dealing with since the whole roster thing passed 6 years ago :(

But maufacturers will only have limited, if any, incentive to keep guns on "the list", they may just decide to write off CA tomorrow and adjust their budgets accordingly, leaving you screwed.

Have a great gun carryin' Kenpo day

Clyde

Crazed_SS
10-14-2007, 4:22 AM
I dunno.. Gun makers sell a lot of guns here. I dont see them writing off the market just because they cant sell their newest goodies. Guns arent like cars and the models dont change all that much over the years. Glock, Sig, SA, SW, etc still have a lot of product to sell to Californians despite all of this.. In the short term we're OK.

I think the real pain of this will be felt in like 10-20 years.. When pistol lineups have been totally changed and revamped. So, In the long term, we're gonna be screwed.

KenpoProfessor
10-14-2007, 4:38 AM
I dunno.. Gun makers sell a lot of guns here. I dont see them writing off the market just because they cant sell their newest goodies. Guns arent like cars and the models dont change all that much over the years. Glock, Sig, SA, SW, etc still have a lot of product to sell to Californians despite all of this.. In the short term we're OK.

I think the real pain of this will be felt in like 10-20 years.. When pistol lineups have been totally changed and revamped. So, In the long term, we're gonna be screwed.

You might be right, but, how about contacting them and find out how this is going to effect you in short and long term. Also find out if they plan to go to court to fight this ignorant, stupid, god-awful legislation.

Have a great gun carryin' Kenpo day

Clyde

Gmountain
10-14-2007, 4:46 AM
.. In the short term we're OK.

I think the real pain of this will be felt in like 10-20 years.. When pistol lineups have been totally changed and revamped. So, In the long term, we're gonna be screwed.
Nice to see you've given up:confused:

Californians are so brainwashed. You think in the "long term" you're going to be screwed? You are screwed now! And not by this latest nail in the coffin. All of the onerous laws, the lists, the AWB, all of that is screwing you.

Sure, there are a few activists, and people on this board. But that is not enough.

They are getting you incrementally. And each time the screws are tightened
you all adjust and accept it, saying that it isn't so bad, and everything is alright after all.

It is not alright. It is beyond bad. Californians need to rise up and take back their state. How the hell could anyone let this happen?

tyrist
10-14-2007, 6:08 AM
Maybe someone can challenge this in court based on the commerce clause of the Constitution.

The additional tooling needed to produce the same gun model for California sale causes an unreasable obsticle to interstate commerce.

supersonic
10-14-2007, 6:24 AM
Too bad they wernt owned by Ronny Barrett or someone with his mindset.

If the people cant buy their handguns they will not sell to the state at all including the LEO's and LE Agencies included.

But most companies would probably sell out the general public.

Ronnie Barrett is THE ONLY ONE who stood up to the PRK BU*****T as a firearms industry leader. I call a big "PUUSSIE" to the rest that didn't fall RIGHT into line behind him. It would REALLY have stirred some S**T up here in Sacramento & probably would have, among other things, meant .50 BMG's would be back on our gunstore walls by now. Just UNBEF***INGLIEVEABLE.

VegasND
10-14-2007, 6:28 AM
You guys keep forgetting that market forces apply. Nobody is going to abandon the CA market-for 2 reasons. They have no morals and will not take a stand which would cost them sales. Next, existing models can be kept in production for minimal cost while new models are added for markets outside CA. Even if no manufacturers are willing to go with the microstamping (probably because it is not durable and they don't want liability and warranty issues with maintaining it) CA is big enough to keep lines open just for them--while still making the CA models available to all.

What you need to worry about next is banning firearms that do not have microstamping. Just make sure to support EVERY lawsuit against the police when they use weapons lacking the 'safety' microstamping provides, no matter how vile the lawsuit.
:43:
(P.S. I am NOT singling out the poster quoted beow--the quote just provides an example of the hostility that many of you are feeling from this latest betrayal of your rights)


Nice to see you've given up:confused:

Californians are so brainwashed. You think in the "long term" you're going to be screwed? You are screwed now! And not by this latest nail in the coffin. All of the onerous laws, the lists, the AWB, all of that is screwing you.

Sure, there are a few activists, and people on this board. But that is not enough.

They are getting you incrementally. And each time the screws are tightened
you all adjust and accept it, saying that it isn't so bad, and everything is alright after all.

It is not alright. It is beyond bad. Californians need to rise up and take back their state. How the hell could anyone let this happen?

KenpoProfessor
10-14-2007, 6:39 AM
You guys keep forgetting that market forces apply. Nobody is going to abandon the CA market-for 2 reasons. They have no morals and will not take a stand which would cost them sales. Next, existing models can be kept in production for minimal cost while new models are added for markets outside CA. Even if no manufacturers are willing to go with the microstamping (probably because it is not durable and they don't want liability and warranty issues with maintaining it) CA is big enough to keep lines open just for them--while still making the CA models available to all.

What you need to worry about next is banning firearms that do not have microstamping. Just make sure to support EVERY lawsuit against the police when they use weapons lacking the 'safety' microstamping provides, no matter how vile the lawsuit.
:43:
(P.S. I am NOT singling out the poster quoted beow--the quote just provides an example of the hostility that many of you are feeling from this latest betrayal of your rights)

There are many gun manufacturers that will not make guns for CA, including Keltec, Skyy, Comanche, NAA, Rorbaugher, and many others. They don't care about the CA market, they sell enough guns to keep them busy for a decade or better. Don't think that the other biggies won't step up and say screw CA, we'll take the hit, bring all the guns off "the list" and not renew the extortion payments.

We'll see if any of the biggies step up and do a Ron Barrett, that'd be cool to watch :D. Knowing none of their LE will get guns or repair guns would force some crazy decisions.

Have a great gun carryin' Kenpo day

Clyde

Calguns2000
10-14-2007, 7:01 AM
You guys keep forgetting that market forces apply. Nobody is going to abandon the CA market-for 2 reasons. They have no morals and will not take a stand which would cost them sales. Next, existing models can be kept in production for minimal cost while new models are added for markets outside CA. Even if no manufacturers are willing to go with the microstamping (probably because it is not durable and they don't want liability and warranty issues with maintaining it) CA is big enough to keep lines open just for them--while still making the CA models available to all.

What you need to worry about next is banning firearms that do not have microstamping. Just make sure to support EVERY lawsuit against the police when they use weapons lacking the 'safety' microstamping provides, no matter how vile the lawsuit.
:43:
(P.S. I am NOT singling out the poster quoted beow--the quote just provides an example of the hostility that many of you are feeling from this latest betrayal of your rights)Unless microstamping legislation is passed across the country (which is quite possible given where things are going), the most likely result is that the various manufacturers will just not introduce any new models in CA and keep their existing models in place on a permament basis for the CA market. When CA legislature figures out that the microstamping laws have not actually resulted in microstamped guns being made available, they will try and change the law and require all handguns being sold in CA to have the microstamping technology.

KenpoProfessor
10-14-2007, 7:08 AM
Unless microstamping legislation is passed across the country (which is quite possible given where things are going), the most likely result is that the various manufacturers will just not introduce any new models in CA and keep their existing models in place on a permament basis for the CA market. When CA legislature figures out that the microstamping laws have not actually resulted in microstamped guns being made available, they will try and change the law and require all handguns being sold in CA to have the microstamping technology.

No, all they have to do is amend the current law to add "all tranferred guns" PPT or otherwise will not be exempt.

Have a great gun carryin' Kenpo day

Clyde

RRangel
10-14-2007, 7:33 AM
Unless microstamping legislation is passed across the country (which is quite possible given where things are going), the most likely result is that the various manufacturers will just not introduce any new models in CA and keep their existing models in place on a permament basis for the CA market. When CA legislature figures out that the microstamping laws have not actually resulted in microstamped guns being made available, they will try and change the law and require all handguns being sold in CA to have the microstamping technology.

The way things are going I don't think this is supported in the United States. California is the state that is going against the grain here.

Support for gun control is at an all time low in this country. A majority of states have shall issue CCW. The freedom haters are trying to get what they can in this anti state while they can get it.

Article on low public support for gun control
http://weblogs.baltimoresun.com/news/politics/blog/2007/10/support_for_gun_control_dwindl.html

The makers that stay may sell the same guns to the rest of the country thus including them whether they like it or not.

RRangel
10-14-2007, 7:35 AM
How about a group buy on microscopes?

;)

Paul
10-14-2007, 8:31 AM
http://www.cachebeauty.com/nail_file_114720.jpg

How about annual inspections to check that the microstamping hasn't worn off?

Stupid stupid stupid.

Bizcuits
10-14-2007, 9:11 AM
All this means for me is my rifle funds until 2010 will now be turned into handgun funds...

KenpoProfessor
10-14-2007, 10:12 AM
GLOCK, Inc.
6000 Highlands Parkway
Smyrna, GA 30082
U.S.A.
Tel.: +1 770 - 432 1202
Fax: +1 770 - 433 8719


SIG SAUER, Inc.
18 Industrial Drive
Exeter, NH 03833
Ph: 603-772-2302
Fax: 603-772-9082


HECKLER & KOCH
7661 Commerce Lane
Trussville, AL 35173 USA
Phone (205) 655-8299
Fax (205) 655-7078


Beretta U.S.A. Corp
17601 Beretta Drive
Accokeek, MD 20607, USA
1-800-237-3882


Smith & Wesson
2100 Roosevelt Avenue
Springfield, MA 01104
1-800-331-0852 (USA)
1-413-747-3317 (USA)


Sturm, Ruger & Co., Inc.
Product Service Department
411 Sunapee Street
Newport, NH 03773
Telephone: 603-865-2442
Fax: 603-863-6165


Here's a list that may be useful for you guys.

Have a great gun carryin' Kenpo day

Clyde

tyrist
10-14-2007, 11:05 AM
This micro stamping bill can be over turned. It causes an unreasonable obsticle to new companies being formed to produce guns because they are required to use additional tooling to produce their firearms but older companies which already have their guns on the safe list do not have to meet such a requirement. It is unfair competition

LECTRIKHED
10-14-2007, 11:30 AM
I think we can fight this effectively by going after the patents. Whoever owns these patents will not give them up. We can also discover people who might own them, and contact them if others infringe. We can also apply for new patents and start a long legal process.

SchooBaka
10-14-2007, 12:07 PM
This certainly sucks, but we have a little over 2 years to fight it in the courts.
I did'nt vote for Arnie because I knew a kennedy owned his testicle lock box.
What will this mean for us reloaders?
Who's gonna wanna sell brass with their microstamp on it?
How could they possibly fit enough info on the firing pin to distinguish between even a thousand different guns, and won't it get deformed from the bending of the primer?
What if the criminals decide to collect some of said brass from the range and drop it all over crime scenes?
Are there any brass catcher stocks on the market?
This law only makes sense to people who scare easily. How many criminals buy handguns legally? NONE
It's already illegal for a convicted felon to buy a firearm.
Another damn redundancy law, just what we needed. :mad:

Cardinal Sin
10-15-2007, 12:39 PM
Exactly correct.

Thanks for the clarification. Maybe this should be posted or stickied so that t hose asking "what does it all mean", can be helped

Jack_Bauer
10-16-2007, 9:06 AM
If you chose to have a firing pin that had the number '6666666' or "F__K ARNIE" on it, you are welcome to do so.


I would pay a LOT of money to have my handgun print that on all my casings. :D

stingray4540
10-18-2007, 2:25 PM
So, there isn't anything that says you can't replace your firing pin.

So, hypothetically, a third party could make a lot of money selling firing pins stamped with F**K Arnie, Warning lead poisoning, 666 or just about anything you can think of.

I know I'd buy one to put in my Glock.

hoffmang
10-18-2007, 6:51 PM
"This casing contains a chemical known to the State of California to cause cancer."

Now that's the microstamp I want.

-Gene

stingray4540
10-19-2007, 9:35 AM
"This casing contains a chemical known to the State of California to cause cancer."

Now that's the microstamp I want.

-Gene

Awesome!!!:notworthy:

Mrs Mink
10-21-2007, 12:30 PM
Recall arnie.. wtf - the Alameda County Sherriff wanted this? time to RECALL his *** as well

Recall Ahnahld? Ooh, I like it! :yes: