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View Full Version : whats a good starter 1911. reasonably priced but cool for upgrades


yallknowho
10-13-2007, 10:05 AM
Hey, I'd like to get a 1911 but dont have 2 grand to spend on one. Whats a good entry level one I can start with and upgrade later?

gn3hz3ku1*
10-13-2007, 10:11 AM
RIA tactical if you want cheap
SA mil spec if you want ok

do a search this issue has been covered over and over.

proraptor
10-13-2007, 10:14 AM
Springfield GI

Bongos
10-13-2007, 11:26 AM
:43:I'd get a Kimber or SA for a starter, these can be had for $500-$700, There is a Kimber Team Match for $800 in Classifieds that is real tempting..basicall you are getting a $1300 gun. Don't let the 8000 round count bring you down, those barrels have 50,000 round life spans

82A1CAL
10-13-2007, 11:36 AM
Bear PMII for about $1500 and you won't look back. :D

redrover
10-13-2007, 3:09 PM
Can't go wrong with a Kimber Custom

.22guy
10-13-2007, 3:57 PM
I'll say Springfield. And you better hurry. They just passed some BS microstamping law. And yes, I know it doesn't take affect until 2010, but the noose is getting tighter all the time, especially with handguns.

Astig Boy
10-13-2007, 5:01 PM
Can't go wrong with a Kimber Custom

+1
:D

supersonic
10-14-2007, 3:55 PM
Got mine for $949. Shoots like a $1700+ 1911.:) >Don't know why these don't get much attention on these boards, they're unbelievable pistols.

http://www.smith-wesson.com/wcsstore/SmWesson/upload/images/dealer/pistol/MSW1911_SW108295%20(A).jpg

fireblast713
10-14-2007, 4:13 PM
I'll say Springfield. And you better hurry. They just passed some BS microstamping law. And yes, I know it doesn't take affect until 2010, but the noose is getting tighter all the time, especially with handguns.

Dude I can't believe that passed... such bs.

Black Majik
10-14-2007, 6:33 PM
To have fun learning on the 1911 platform and modify later, both the SA Milspec/GI would be excellent, as well as a NRM Colt Government. The Springfield however won't have a FPS, except the ILS that is a lock in the MSH that can be switched out.

For good starter 1911s that already have the goodies, I'd pick from either a S&W 1911, Kimber Custom II, or a Springfield Loaded. They all have fixed sights, extended thumb safeties, Front cocking serrations, beavertail, 3 hole trigger and skeleton hammers.

My favorite of that bunch would be a internal extractor Kimber fulsize.

gunsnrovers
10-14-2007, 6:46 PM
They all have fixed sights, extended thumb safeties, Front cocking serrations, beavertail, 3 hole trigger and skeleton hammers.

LOL. That's the reason I wouldn't choose them. Those are things I don't want on my pistol. :D

My pick is a SA GI or Milspec and then take your time figuring out who you want to wrench on it and after you've had a chance to put some rounds down range and figured out what you want.

proraptor
10-14-2007, 7:56 PM
Got mine for $949. Shoots like a $1700+ 1911.:) >Don't know why these don't get much attention on these boards, they're unbelievable pistols.

http://www.smith-wesson.com/wcsstore/SmWesson/upload/images/dealer/pistol/MSW1911_SW108295%20(A).jpg

External extractor.....yuck

RECCE556
10-14-2007, 8:10 PM
I would buy a Colt NRM Gov't model over a SA of similar build. The Colt will retain it's value better generally (even after mods) and Colt has excellent build quality and consistency. SA would be moderately distant second choice. I wouldn't waste my money modifying a RIA/HS/Armscor 1911 and I would skip Kimber altogether unless you were getting it for dirt cheap (50%+ off retail).

I would also avoid S&W 1911's. Not for the external extractor (S&W's external actually works quite well..unlike Kimber's) but because S&W has terrible "quality control" and their "standards" for their QC is quite low. I was told by S&W that the various machining problems I had on my SW1911 was "acceptable" by their standards. This was after it went to S&W a few times for other problems (timing, finish issues, etc.). If you're desperate for a S&W 1911, I would highly, highly recommend you do a detailed breakdown of the gun an examine the internal machining of the slide and frame and also look for rubbing/mashing marks...and make sure you're getting for damn near free.

aplinker
10-14-2007, 8:18 PM
I honestly believe the Colts are worth the small amount of extra cost over a Springfield. Look for a used gun (especially series 70). There's no reason to buy a Arsmcor, RIA, etc. if you want a real 1911 and want to upgrade it.

If you're serious about upgrades and smithing it there's no better way to go.

I'm speaking from the experience of someone who didn't do this to begin with and would now, if I could do it again.

I do think the Baers are fantastic, but it's a $700+ difference. $700 in 'smithing is a whole lot of work!

People frequently forget about the Dan Wesson PM7, which would be a good choice, too.

yallknowho
10-14-2007, 10:03 PM
are the frames among the springfields the same (except for the light rail)?

RECCE556
10-14-2007, 10:52 PM
New guys to the 1911 platform are quite fortunate. The Internet can provide you guys with boatload of information and options. I wish forums like CalGuns existed back when I started out, it would have saved me a LOT of time and money.

I absolutely agree with UCLAplinker. I did the same thing and bought various other 1911's just to figure that I should have started off with a base model Colt 1911 from the start. I think the only non-Colt I would buy at this point is if I got a really killer deal on a high end custom (Nighthawk, Ed Brown, Wilson Combat, etc.)

The only downside on customizing is that most of the good 1911 'smiths are locked up for at least a year or more in work...

People frequently forget about the Dan Wesson PM7, which would be a good choice, too.
The one thing that bothers me about this gun is that it has adjustable "target" sights. I strongly dislike adjustable target sights and there's no way to "undo" the target sights (since the slide is cut). I'm a fixed sight guy and if Dan Wesson would just offer a fixed sight version, I'd be all over this.

I have a Dan Wesson Commander Bobtail and it's a great gun despite its cast frame. There's only two things I'm going to do to mine: 1) undercut the front strap and 2) have a match bushing fitted.

RECCE556
10-14-2007, 10:57 PM
are the frames among the springfields the same (except for the light rail)?

Outside of the size differences, material (steel or stainless steel) and light rails, the frames are pretty much the same. Supposidly, "NM" prefixed serial numbers have US machined frames...they're all forged in Brazil.

I've read that Imbel (in Brazil) does the rough machining ("80%") in Brazil and then it's sent here for finally "fine" machining. I've also heard that they're completely machined here (they just raw forgings from Brazil). Dunno and Springfield wouldn't give me a straight answer.

The non-NM frames are all made/machined in Brazil by Imbel.

duenor
10-14-2007, 11:21 PM
if you're really into cheap, consider a Sistema Colt. very very nice guns at very nice prices.

supersonic
10-15-2007, 12:13 AM
and their "standards" for their QC is quite low. I was told by S&W that the various machining problems I had on my SW1911 was "acceptable" by their standards. This was after it went to S&W a few times for other problems (timing, finish issues, etc.). If you're desperate for a S&W 1911, I would highly, highly recommend you do a detailed breakdown of the gun an examine the internal machining of the slide and frame and also look for rubbing/mashing marks...and make sure you're getting for damn near free.[QUOTE]

LMAO:rofl2: I'd like to see some proof of your "view." Or, maybe the 5 people who I know that own one + me just got REALLY LUCKY. The 6 pistols are approx. 2.5 yrs. spread apart (manufacturing dates), and the "Bad Q.C." & "Sloppy Machining Gremlins" must have coincidentally been home sick on those exact dates!:eek:

yallknowho
10-15-2007, 5:34 AM
New guys to the 1911 platform are quite fortunate. The Internet can provide you guys with boatload of information and options. I wish forums like CalGuns existed back when I started out, it would have saved me a LOT of time and money.

I absolutely agree with UCLAplinker. I did the same thing and bought various other 1911's just to figure that I should have started off with a base model Colt 1911 from the start. I think the only non-Colt I would buy at this point is if I got a really killer deal on a high end custom (Nighthawk, Ed Brown, Wilson Combat, etc.)

The only downside on customizing is that most of the good 1911 'smiths are locked up for at least a year or more in work...


The one thing that bothers me about this gun is that it has adjustable "target" sights. I strongly dislike adjustable target sights and there's no way to "undo" the target sights (since the slide is cut). I'm a fixed sight guy and if Dan Wesson would just offer a fixed sight version, I'd be all over this.

I have a Dan Wesson Commander Bobtail and it's a great gun despite its cast frame. There's only two things I'm going to do to mine: 1) undercut the front strap and 2) have a match bushing fitted.

are you talking about the Colt series 70? what makes it superior to other brands?

xrMike
10-15-2007, 7:22 AM
Hey, I'd like to get a 1911 but dont have 2 grand to spend on one. Whats a good entry level one I can start with and upgrade later?A parked SA Mil-spec fits those requirements perfectly. You ought to be able to get a new one for less than $600.

maxicon
10-15-2007, 8:32 AM
I'll echo the recommendation for the Milspec. Great shooter out of the box - no upgrades required to start chewing the center out of targets, and you can figure out what you want to do from there.

I'd choose the Milspec over the GI, unless you're planning on replacing the slide pretty soon. The Milspec has the lowered ejection port and better sights than the GI, so the slide's a better bet for starting out.

I haven't done anything to mine except dehorn the mag well and replace the grips, and it's one of my most accurate semi-autos.

RAMCHARGER
10-15-2007, 9:12 AM
Speaking as someone who at one time or another has owed a 1911 by almost everyone. YEA get a COLT!

My first 1911 was a ser 70 GM. Only issue it had was with (1980s BTW) the ashtray speer hollowpoints. Bain and Davis fixed that. That puppy reliably fed EMPTY BRASS after that. Sold it cuz it was raining Colts back then and the dealer was my dad's drinkin buddy so I got em at cost plus a little extra for beer money :).

Fast forward to 1990 and now. Colts were only a rumor so I experimented with "others"

Good was the Milspec SA. But the bushing loosened up badly under 1000 rounds. Had a newone installed. losend up again. each time causing my bullets to land all over the place. This time it came back shooting 4 inches low. I called SA customer service again. BTW they are good. And the nice lady actually returns phone calls. But 4" low at 21 feet is acceptable to SA. So I file the front sight down to below the white dot to get it to shoot POA at 21 feet. After that it was great. Untill the bushing got loose again.... New bushing againe NOW it shot too high.... Sold it.


So I got brainwashed to get a KIMBER. I got raped without so much as a thank you with that KIMBER. Over a $1000 for a gun that was worse function wise that my auto ordinance 1911....At least the AO was under $500.

The AO.. Well it was pretty, blued and had the cool looking THOMPSON logo on the slide. ANd I was hard up for a 1911 and didn't want to hold up a 7-11 to get one. Do I really have to tell you about that one? :)

YEA gat a COLT.

Black Majik
10-15-2007, 9:21 AM
Speaking as someone who at one time or another has owed a 1911 by almost everyone. YEA get a COLT!

My first 1911 was a ser 70 GM. Only issue it had was with (1980s BTW) the ashtray speer hollowpoints. Bain and Davis fixed that. That puppy reliably fed EMPTY BRASS after that. Sold it cuz it was raining Colts back then and the dealer was my dad's drinkin buddy so I got em at cost plus a little extra for beer money :).

Fast forward to 1990 and now. Colts were only a rumor so I experimented with "others"

Good was the Milspec SA. But the bushing loosened up badly under 1000 rounds. Had a newone installed. losend up again. each time causing my bullets to land all over the place. This time it came back shooting 4 inches low. I called SA customer service again. BTW they are good. And the nice lady actually returns phone calls. But 4" low at 21 feet is acceptable to SA. So I file the front sight down to below the white dot to get it to shoot POA at 21 feet. After that it was great. Untill the bushing got loose again.... New bushing againe NOW it shot too high.... Sold it.


So I got brainwashed to get a KIMBER. I got raped without so much as a thank you with that KIMBER. Over a $1000 for a gun that was worse function wise that my auto ordinance 1911....At least the AO was under $500.

The AO.. Well it was pretty, blued and had the cool looking THOMPSON logo on the slide. ANd I was hard up for a 1911 and didn't want to hold up a 7-11 to get one. Do I really have to tell you about that one? :)

YEA gat a COLT.

Maybe those guns just had "bad days?" ;)

Gryff
10-15-2007, 2:30 PM
The Springfield GI is said to the best "base model" 1911 on which to build up to a custom gun later on.

Alternatively, the Rock Island Tactical is an unbelievable deal ($349 - http://www.sarcoinc.com/rockislands-new.html), and the STI Spartan is a economically priced competition 1911 ($660 - http://stiguns.com/). Both of these are made in the Philippines, and use MIM parts (thus the low price point).

I really like what I've seen of the Taurus 1911, but it is not yet CA legal.

-Jim

RaceDay
10-15-2007, 3:20 PM
I got the Springfield GI. If I did it again, I'd get the Milspec for the nicer sights. I think Gunsnrovers hit the nail on the head-- get a nice low cost platform, shoot it a bunch and then decide what you want to upgrade.

Glock22Fan
10-15-2007, 3:42 PM
I've got a SW1911PD. I had one problem, the plunger tube sheared off (not uncommon amongst (almost?) all makes of 1911's according to my web research). Apart from that it has behaved flawlessly. More accurate than I am, and I like the light (scandium) frame. Everyone who has seen it, including gunsmiths, SME's and other instuctors, says how nice and tight it is, no sloppy fit anywhere that matters and no binding.

It cost me just over $800, new, a year or two ago. (Yes, I got a good deal as it was listed at over $1,100)

If you take the cost of an inexpensive 1911, and add up all of the likely customization cost, you are talking a lot more money than if you buy a better model up front. And you still have a cheap framework onto which you've grafted all this stuff. There's a lot available for far less than that $2,000 you quote.

We aren't allowed to buy the Taurus 1911 in Cali, but their ads show some of the costs of upgrading a cheaper pistol.

Gryff
10-15-2007, 3:53 PM
If you take the cost of an inexpensive 1911, and add up all of the likely customization cost, you are talking a lot more money than if you buy a better model up front. And you still have a cheap framework onto which you've grafted all this stuff. There's a lot available for far less than that $2,000 you quote.

That's why the low-end Springfields are such good choices for "evolution" projects. GREAT frames and manufacturing quality that you can add features to over time.

One of the magazines ran an article on having a custom gun built. If you started with a basic Springfield, you could get a full-blown custom gun done for about $1400 (including the original gun cost). That's slightly more than a good Kimber, and far less than a Wilson or Nighthawk.

-Jim

odysseus
10-15-2007, 4:13 PM
Haven't been to Colt's website in awhile. I am drooling over that Special Government Combat....

RECCE556
10-16-2007, 12:05 AM
LMAO:rofl2: I'd like to see some proof of your "view." Or, maybe the 5 people who I know that own one + me just got REALLY LUCKY. The 6 pistols are approx. 2.5 yrs. spread apart (manufacturing dates), and the "Bad Q.C." & "Sloppy Machining Gremlins" must have coincidentally been home sick on those exact dates!:eek:

Maybe you and your buddies did get lucky but there are known issues with some bad machining on SW1911's. Whether or not you want to accept it is irrelavant. I gave S&W a chance to fix it (no wait, I gave them a FEW chances to fix it) and they never did. They told me that it was within their specs. If you guys got lucky with six if them, good for y'all. I wouldn't buy another one unless it was dirt cheap and I was able to do a detailed inspection of it.

Also, there is no reason to buy the S&W over other brands unless you just happen to like S&W as a brand. Even my buddy who is a big S&W fan doesn't buy their 1911's (he buys Colts) but I guess I'm just making that up too...:rolleyes:

edit: have you ever checked your brass after shooting your SW1911? Are the rims indented from the rear? If so, take a look at your breech face. See any uneveness?

RECCE556
10-16-2007, 12:46 AM
are you talking about the Colt series 70? what makes it superior to other brands?
Yes, I am. Although Series 80/90's are fine too, but a lot of "purists" don't like the firing pin block feature as it’s just another thing that could potentially prevent you from firing at the least opportune moment…basically, “less is more” in there book but then again, a lot of these guys don’t like modern sights either… :)

That aside, I feel that Colt makes a good, solid 1911 with solid materials and consistent QC. Some people think their 1911's "loose" but a lot of 1911 unreliability myths stem from overly "match tight" custom pistols from long ago when "target 1911's" were the all the rage.

The recent popularity of "tactical 1911's" has changed the field tremendously. Now reliability is just important, if not more that match accuracy. The current "in-the-know" smiths make very reliable and accurate custom 1911's (Hilton Yam, Chuck Rogers, Bob Rodgers, Don Williams, John Harrison, YoBo, Stan Chen, Tony Barnes, Fletcher Customs, Steve Morrison, Robert Miller, etc.)

In regards to Sistemas, as Duenor mentioned, they're very good 1911's. These were manufactured on Colt machinery in Argentina…however, most “cheap” Sistemas are beaters. They should also be detail inspected for safety issues (such as damaged/worn parts). Finding a clean one for cheap is a bit of a challenge now-a-days (and it’s not going to get any better.)

There is a Colt ORM 1911 (M1991A1) going for $575 in the Marketplace:
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=67273

This would make a good base gun to start off with…I would MUCH rather buy this than a Springfield Milspec or GI.

supersonic
10-16-2007, 11:41 AM
Maybe you and your buddies did get lucky but there are known issues with some bad machining on SW1911's. Whether or not you want to accept it is irrelavant. I gave S&W a chance to fix it (no wait, I gave them a FEW chances to fix it) and they never did. They told me that it was within their specs. If you guys got lucky with six if them, good for y'all. I wouldn't buy another one unless it was dirt cheap and I was able to do a detailed inspection of it.

Also, there is no reason to buy the S&W over other brands unless you just happen to like S&W as a brand. Even my buddy who is a big S&W fan doesn't buy their 1911's (he buys Colts) but I guess I'm just making that up too...:rolleyes:

edit: have you ever checked your brass after shooting your SW1911? Are the rims indented from the rear? If so, take a look at your breech face. See any uneveness?

Can't say I've had ANY of the problems (my friends, either) you mentioned. Fired brass (after cleaning & reloading) looks brand new. Breech face perfectly true. Maybe you had some kind of experience with either a factory "throwaway" which "mysteriously" made it out of production; or you could have had one that was ruined by an amateur "gunsmith." Also, is the 1911 of which you speak, the ONLY specimen w/ the "imperfections" you have had experience with? The whole thing sounds fishy to me. BTW, among 1911 gurus that I know (owners of Wilsons/Browns/Kimbers)- 4 of them bought S&W's after inspecting and shooting mine. These guys are all HIGH Masters who have owned/shot/competed w/1911's for over 20 yrs. Oh, and they ALL say STAY AWAY from Colt's. I guess I could be wrong, but....................Oh, and I think you should maybe read a little more carefully. I NEVER said you were "making things up." Please don't attempt to put a "spin" on / or put words in my mouth. Thank You!;)

odysseus
10-16-2007, 12:39 PM
These guys are all HIGH Masters who have owned/shot/competed w/1911's for over 20 yrs. Oh, and they ALL say STAY AWAY from Colt's. I guess I could be wrong, but....................

I find that point an incredulous one to make. Now I am not saying all Colts are perfect over the years, and I am not anywhere near this much lauded 1911 "HIGH Master" class you speak of, but Colt has been well respected for most 1911 shooters I have met.

CA357
10-16-2007, 1:19 PM
If I read the original post correctly, the question was which reasonably priced 1911 would make a good starting platform to be customized/upgraded at a later time? Did I read that correctly? If so, then here is what I did.
I bought a Springfield MilSpec. It is a somewhat upgraded model than the G.I. model. I sent it to Springfield Custom for a trigger job, internal de-burring and polishing and a flat mainspring housing.
Then I shot it for several hundred rounds. Then I sent it to Novaks in West Virginia to have fiber optic sights installed.
It's finished, that's it. It now has all the features I wanted and none of the crap I don't. It's a reliable, businesslike, good shooting pistol that I'd trust my life to.

CAG23
10-16-2007, 1:24 PM
What do you guys think about the KIMBER CDP II family? I like the way they look and that Kimber is primarily a 1911 maker. I have heard that they are good guns and that they are quality firearms. Since this will be my first 1911 and hopefuly not my last. I know about wilson combat but dont have the dough to fork over for one of those.

oghl888
10-16-2007, 3:11 PM
For all who question S&W's quality in their 1911's, please check on the S&W forum as well as the 1911 forum to see how well regarded they are, external extractors and all :) I have 4 of them, and they all perform very well for me. Out of the 4, I actually shoot the cheapest one the most. I shoot better with it than the LB TRS.

Having said that, for the stated purpose and possible modifications in the future, a Springfield is what I would choose. Find one that has a good slide frame fit, and the aesthetics that's pleasing to your eyes. I would also not go with stainless steel if extensive customization is a possibility.

yallknowho
10-16-2007, 3:47 PM
what does todd jarrett use?

yallknowho
10-16-2007, 3:50 PM
that para ordinance high cap?

Bongos
10-16-2007, 7:24 PM
If I read the original post correctly, the question was which reasonably priced 1911 would make a good starting platform to be customized/upgraded at a later time? Did I read that correctly? If so, then here is what I did.
I bought a Springfield MilSpec. It is a somewhat upgraded model than the G.I. model. I sent it to Springfield Custom for a trigger job, internal de-burring and polishing and a flat mainspring housing.
Then I shot it for several hundred rounds. Then I sent it to Novaks in West Virginia to have fiber optic sights installed.
It's finished, that's it. It now has all the features I wanted and none of the crap I don't. It's a reliable, businesslike, good shooting pistol that I'd trust my life to.

As this discussion moves along, people are going to realize, that by the time you add this and custom that....It's going to cost you anywhere from $1400-$2000, yet when it's done.. your return is most likely a pistol thats worth $800-$1200... that said, if you are going to have custom stuff done, do it with one gunsmith and keep all the receipts, this will make your gun worth more and n a rainy day when you need funds you will thank me. Personally... , I would save the cash and buy wilson combats and Nighthawks, these have been showing up in the classifieds for some really low prices..originally new at $2200-$2900 with Sold prices of $1500-$1700
and the funny thing is ..these will alway be worth that much you bought them for

yallknowho
10-16-2007, 8:44 PM
someone said the master shooters dont like colts... any validity to this?

RECCE556
10-17-2007, 1:42 AM
someone said the master shooters dont like colts... any validity to this?
That's a load of BS.

RECCE556
10-17-2007, 2:07 AM
Maybe you had some kind of experience with either a factory "throwaway" which "mysteriously" made it out of production; or you could have had one that was ruined by an amateur "gunsmith." Also, is the 1911 of which you speak, the ONLY specimen w/ the "imperfections" you have had experience with? The whole thing sounds fishy to me.
The gun was brand new, ordered from RSR in early 2007. There's no "mystery" to it. It's a fault QC. Mine wasn't the only one that made it out and no "amateur gunsmith" touched it (as a matter of fact, unless RSR touched it, no one other than S&W would have touched it as I opened the package when it arrived at my FFL)

BTW, among 1911 gurus that I know (owners of Wilsons/Browns/Kimbers)- 4 of them bought S&W's after inspecting and shooting mine. These guys are all HIGH Masters who have owned/shot/competed w/1911's for over 20 yrs. Oh, and they ALL say STAY AWAY from Colt's. I guess I could be wrong, but....................
That's the most ridiculous thing I've heard. You talk to any gunsmith who is worth his salt and they ALL customize Colts for a reason. Sure, they'll do work on other 1911's but Colt's are the preferred platform and it has nothing to do with it needing to "fixed" the most or anything, it has to do with consistency of quality.

Here's some problems people have had...
http://forum.m1911.org/showthread.php?t=575
http://forum.m1911.org/showpost.php?p=362235&postcount=3
http://www.1911forum.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1547503&postcount=16
http://forum.m1911.org/showpost.php?p=362938&postcount=12
http://www.1911forum.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1577613&postcount=58
http://forum.m1911.org/showpost.php?p=363260&postcount=15
http://forum.m1911.org/showpost.php?p=367511&postcount=29
http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=44945
http://www.1911forum.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1543513&postcount=2
http://www.1911forum.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1543515&postcount=3
http://www.1911forum.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1547069&postcount=14
http://www.1911forum.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1547503&postcount=16
http://www.1911forum.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1548031&postcount=19
http://www.1911forum.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1549115&postcount=24
http://www.1911forum.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1550622&postcount=25
http://www.1911forum.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1552166&postcount=27

And here's someone else who also had my "non-existant" problem...:rolleyes:
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2109533&postcount=24

And this guy probably doesn't know anything about 1911's either....:rolleyes:
http://forum.m1911.org/showpost.php?p=23969&postcount=1

And this must also be imaging these problems that I speak of...oh, he MUST have photoshopped all these pictures too...:rolleyes:
http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=2190

Did I mention my SW1911 had a couple poorly finished parts and the trigger moved around so much that it sounded like a baby's rattle? Of maybe I just "imagining" this...:rolleyes: OH WAIT, in that last thread, a guy named "DAVID THOMAS" (third post after the OP's post) speaks of a S&W pattened "Rat-L-Trap" trigger. I guess he too has imagined this or maybe it's just another "factory "throwaway" which "mysteriously" got through...:rolleyes:

Now understand that I'm not saying every single S&W 1911 is problematic but they're not as problem free as some may think. Do Colt's have problems? They sure do, but how many Colts are out there vs. S&W 1911's? How many years has Colt be manufacturing 1911's and how many problematic Colt's are a result of "customzing"?

supersonic
10-17-2007, 4:23 AM
I find that point an incredulous one to make. Now I am not saying all Colts are perfect over the years, and I am not anywhere near this much lauded 1911 "HIGH Master" class you speak of, but Colt has been well respected for most 1911 shooters I have met.

There is no such thing as a "1911 High Master" ("of which I speak") I said HIGH MASTER, meaning the shooting skill level they are qualified in. I would have NO reason to report BU*****T on here- it's just the way it was explained to me. The opinions on the Colts were mere observations from respected competition shooters who had problems w/ different models of the Colt 1911. I was just passing the message along. Nothing more, nothing less.:) If I found a Colt that passed my inspection & shot better than me (like my S&W). Hell-I'd buy one.

supersonic
10-17-2007, 4:38 AM
[QUOTE=oghl888;795064]For all who question S&W's quality in their 1911's, please check on the S&W forum as well as the 1911 forum to see how well regarded they are, external extractors and all :) I have 4 of them, and they all perform very well for me. Out of the 4, I actually shoot the cheapest one the most. I shoot better with it than the LB TRS.

:):):) EXACTLY. THANK YOU!!!!!!!!! If ANY 'Smith 1911 came w/ such factory defects as was "reported" earlier, the company would (upon receiving the "bad" one from dissatisfied customer) have a PERFECT new one (if not an UPGRADE) sent to you immediately. That's just how the most successful handgun maker in history does things. BTW, internal extractors are a "purist" thing, and have nothing to do with quality/functionality. Externals are actually regarded as being stronger & more reliable than internals, which a lot of modern gunsmiths think are "outdated." I did MUCH research before purchasing my 1911. Also, if Colt's are the most "customized" 1911, I think that says some thing about the out-of -the-box quality. Anyway, I'm going out to the garage to clean my S&W before going to work (shot the Hell out of it (mostly X-Rings @ 25 yds.) last night). Have fun, guys. See ya.

Mute
10-17-2007, 7:01 AM
Here's my order of preferences for a base gun:

1. Colt NRM (or any pre firing pin safety Colt you can find)
2. Springfield GI or Milspec
3. Kimber Classic if you don't mind front serrations

As to Colts being problematic. Bull. I don't need to refer to any experts to determine if they're good or bad. I have more than my share of experience with 1911s. Colts are no more (nor less) problematic than 1911s from any other major 1911 manufacturer.

Colts are very likely the most customized, not because of poor out-of-the box quality, but because there are simply more of them around and 1911 owners can't seem to leave any 1911 untouched.

RECCE556
10-17-2007, 9:11 AM
If ANY 'Smith 1911 came w/ such factory defects as was "reported" earlier, the company would (upon receiving the "bad" one from dissatisfied customer) have a PERFECT new one (if not an UPGRADE) sent to you immediately.
Again, this is not necessarily true. I had to return mine to S&W THREE times and they NEVER got it right. This is also not an "uncommon" thing as other people have reported the same thing. Most people who had this happen got fed up and either sold the S&W, returned it to the dealer or paid to have a gunsmith fix it.

BTW, internal extractors are a "purist" thing, and have nothing to do with quality/functionality. Externals are actually regarded as being stronger & more reliable than internals, which a lot of modern gunsmiths think are "outdated."
Oh really? You mean well respected and knowledgable 1911 'smiths like Hilton Yam? Oh wait, he HATES externals. As do most other notable 1911 'smiths.

Also, if Colt's are the most "customized" 1911, I think that says some thing about the out-of-the-box quality.
Wow, that yet ANOTHER ridiculous statement.:rolleyes: You OBVIOUSLY don't know much about Colt 1911's nor their quality. You know why a lot of people customize Colt's as opposed to other 1911's? BECAUSE THEY'RE WORTH INVESTING THE MONEY TO CUSTOMIZE. Why would you spend the time and money to customize a turd? You wouldn't....hence, you don't see too many SW1911 customize, now do you?;)

Kruzr
10-17-2007, 9:35 AM
You know why a lot of people customize Colt's as opposed to other 1911's?
Because a Colt is a base level gun with no upgrades whatsoever. Bullseye shooters would buy a Colt and immediately give it to a smith for new sights, a trigger job or replacement of the action group, a new bushing and many times a new barrel as well. Later, they would add the beavertail and extended safety.

Kimber was the first gun company to have all these things on their base gun. When everyone else jumped into the 1911 market, they included all the upgrades on their base guns. The main reason you see more Colts and SA milspecs going to smiths to upgrade them is because other brands have many of these things.

As the owner of 2 Colts, 2 Kimbers, 2 SAs, 2 Baers, and a Brown, I always tell people who are looking for a 1911 that they themselves are the only person who can determine which 1911 is best for them. When you buy a car, you sit in it and if possible drive it. When you buy a gun, you have to handle it and if possible shoot it.

The brand name makes no difference, they all have had problems and they all have put out great guns. It's a gun by gun thing not a manufacturing or major QC problem.

oghl888
10-17-2007, 9:53 AM
I think we are hi-jacking the thread a bit. Colt is not a cheap gun compared to other suggestions for a starter gun, nor is it the "best" base gun when price is no object (especially the series 80 colt). I believe that the smiths I've talked to prefer Springfield, Les Baer frame/slide, and STI/SVI for a signature customer built. The most common reason I was given was that all the machining is in the right place, and the quality of the steel is good.

Some people go well out of their way to bash S&W 1911s. All I can say is that I am a satisfied customer with 4 of the 1911 examples including a couple of PC 1911s. I will probably buy more in the future. I've heard "JMB did not intend the 1911 to have external extractors" too many times. But the same people do not mentioned that he did not intend the 1911 to have after market sights, extended controls, tight frame to slide fit, tight bushings, mag-wells, etc. THey just don't have credibility with me when their opinion is based more on religion than fact. For the purist, isn't a Springfield GI the best gun for them in the current offerings?

For the initial poster's situation, the Springfield GI or Milspec is also the best choice in my opinion. It's a good working gun as is, and the upgrade potential runs from minor parts replacement, trigger work, to a full blown customer build costing 10x the initial price. Again, just make sure that the frame/slide fit is good to start with, and it feels and looks right to the beholder's 5 senses.

supersonic
10-17-2007, 10:28 AM
Again, this is not necessarily true. I had to return mine to S&W THREE times and they NEVER got it right. This is also not an "uncommon" thing as other people have reported the same thing. Most people who had this happen got fed up and either sold the S&W, returned it to the dealer or paid to have a gunsmith fix it.


Oh really? You mean well respected and knowledgable 1911 'smiths like Hilton Yam? Oh wait, he HATES externals. As do most other notable 1911 'smiths.


Wow, that yet ANOTHER ridiculous statement.:rolleyes: You OBVIOUSLY don't know much about Colt 1911's nor their quality. You know why a lot of people customize Colt's as opposed to other 1911's? BECAUSE THEY'RE WORTH INVESTING THE MONEY TO CUSTOMIZE. Why would you spend the time and money to customize a turd? You wouldn't....hence, you don't see too many SW1911 customize, now do you?;)


[quote=oghl888;795064]For all who question S&W's quality in their 1911's, please check on the S&W forum as well as the 1911 forum to see how well regarded they are, external extractors and all

GREAT ADVICE, my man!^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Boy! SOMEONE sure got their teets in an uproar! Better check your blood pressure, as it would be a sad thing if we lost such a 1911 "expert" who seems to disparage .45's that shoot bull's eyes right out of the box.:rolleyes: Well, off to the golf course (Tee-off time is @ 12 Noon-can't be late!), so 'yall take care of yerselves, 'hear? Adios Amigos!:cool:

BaronW
10-17-2007, 10:34 AM
Does anyone have experience with the RIA Tactical? It's ~$400 and comes with good features like extended ambi-safeties and an extended beavertail, plus some cosmetic stuff like a skeletonized trigger and hammer. Really tempting for me, a college student looking to get a 1911 (soonish).
links:
http://www.sarcoinc.com/rockislands-new.html
http://gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=83076682
http://www.centerfiresystems.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=1082

RECCE556
10-17-2007, 1:04 PM
Some people go well out of their way to bash S&W 1911s.So are you saying that these people who had problems with their S&W 1911's are going out of their way? I don't see it that way, they're post real issues they had with their S&W 1911.

heard "JMB did not intend the 1911 to have external extractors" too many times. But the same people do not mentioned that he did not intend the 1911 to have after market sights, extended controls, tight frame to slide fit, tight bushings, mag-wells, etc. THey just don't have credibility with me when their opinion is based more on religion than fact.
I guess the fact that a lot of these people are some of the best 1911 smiths in the world doesn't matter? Personally, I don't care if it's internal or external (I did buy a external extractor SW1911 afterall). I'll take what works and considering that external extractors have had a lot of DOCUMENTED problems in 1911's (see any recent external extractor Kimbers for sale?) and ,once again, considering the considerable amount of support from real experts for internal extractors, I think I'll stick with internals until proven otherwise.

For the initial poster's situation, the Springfield GI or Milspec is also the best choice in my opinion.
My personal opinion is that if you're going to customize, go with a base model Colt. I'd rather buy a used 70's series (if you don't want the the FP safety) because in a pinch, if I need to offload my customized 1911, a Colt will always have better resale. If you plan on never selling or don't care about resale, you want to save a few dollars and you don't mind a Brazillian made gun, the SA Milspec's aren't bad.

Better check your blood pressure, as it would be a sad thing if we lost such a 1911 "expert" who seems to disparage .45's that shoot bull's eyes right out of the box
Right, cuz accuracy is all that matters. Forget about reliablity. Besides, no need to worry about loosing someone who might have a little experience with 1911's...afterall, they have you to rely on...:rolleyes:

Listen, no need to be butthurt because someone doesn't like your precious little S&W. If you like it and it works for you, good for you.

RECCE556
10-17-2007, 1:06 PM
Does anyone have experience with the RIA Tactical?
RIA's aren't bad but they're a little rough on the inside. Just a basic entry level 1911. The Tactical model does offer a lot of nice extras and it would make for a decent starter gun. I personally wouldn't invest too much money into "customizing" one. When/If you get that point, I would start off with a better base 1911.

Because a Colt is a base level gun with no upgrades whatsoever. You've never heard of a XSE? There are plenty of not-base Colts around.

The brand name makes no difference, they all have had problems and they all have put out great guns. It's a gun by gun thing not a manufacturing or major QC problem. True, I was never a big Colt fan (especially when the Brits owned 'em) but consider the number of 1911's that Colt has out there. The fact that you don't hear about too many issues with factory Colt guns says a lot IMO. For me, I'd rather buy a 1911 from a company that I can trust. I trust Colt to manufacture a good 1911. Kimber and S&W, not so much but that's because I have PERSONALLY (not just read on the internet) experienced bad Kimbers and S&W's.

Kruzr
10-17-2007, 1:15 PM
You've never heard of a XSE? There are plenty of not-base Colts around.

I know, one of my Colts is a Gold Cup National Match..... Keep in mind, the reason Colt put out the XSE was so you wouldn't have to send it to a gunsmith for all the features.

The poster wanted a good gun to do upgrades on.

aplinker
10-17-2007, 3:41 PM
Is it wrong that I'm just really not cool with the idea of Brazillian forgings in a 1911? I'm fully aware of the mil-specs being solid guns, but it really bothers me.

There are guns it wouldn't bother me a bit, but a 1911, to me, is a hunk of US Steel.

To me, it's like when I watched baseball in Japan. The were way into it and they played well, but it just never felt like a real baseball game. Some things just need to be American made for me...

I would still say the extra $100-200 for a Colt will add value in the future if you really want to do some customization. A Springfield mil-spec is a fine choice, too.

There's nothing fundamentally wrong with a lot of these 1911's that build base pistols. Kimber, S&W, Colt, Springfield, Sig, Para, Dan Wesson, Taurus...

It's just a question of how often they run out of the box (a function of the quality of the steel and the internals, and then the craftsmanship).

I think it comes down to this: which you feel a connection to. There are certainly better pistols than others, but I could line up 5 that are very similar. You have to pick the one that makes you feel like, "YEAH! That's the one." If they all feel similar, then pick the one that's either the cheapest or will make the most valued.

yallknowho
10-17-2007, 3:49 PM
whats wrong with the firing pin safetys on the colts?

BaronW
10-17-2007, 4:03 PM
I find the irony of a Philippines-manufactured 1911 funny. (RIA Tactical)

Mute
10-17-2007, 4:33 PM
whats wrong with the firing pin safetys on the colts?

Nothing. Some people like them, some people don't. Personal preference. I personally prefer no FPS but I can live with one too.

aplinker
10-17-2007, 4:50 PM
I find the irony of a Philippines-manufactured 1911 funny. (RIA Tactical)

I don't think we've ever been at war with them... we've fought wars there using them, certainly.

A Chinese made M1A is pretty close to the ultimate irony.

odysseus
10-17-2007, 5:12 PM
I don't think we've ever been at war with them... we've fought wars there using them, certainly.

A Chinese made M1A is pretty close to the ultimate irony.

Funny you mention that, some people really didn't mind those Norinco 1911's that were coming in at one time, especially for the price and a little buffing out here and there.

Black Majik
10-17-2007, 5:18 PM
whats wrong with the firing pin safetys on the colts?

Nothing. It just makes disassembly and reassembly of a detail strip a smidge longer. ;)

supersonic
10-17-2007, 6:28 PM
I figured as much, Recess. Well, I gave it a try. Bye-Bye!:rolleyes:

Slugo
10-17-2007, 7:50 PM
Is it wrong that I'm just really not cool with the idea of Brazillian forgings in a 1911? I'm fully aware of the mil-specs being solid guns, but it really bothers me.

There are guns it wouldn't bother me a bit, but a 1911, to me, is a hunk of US Steel.



+1 I agree with you 100%. As it stands now, I am also looking for a 1911. I've been doing a lot of research, and aside from getting a Baer, Brown, Wilson, or custom built 1911; going with a Colt seems the to be the best buy. If anyone wants and or cares about my $.02, I suggest a Colt.

oghl888
10-17-2007, 7:55 PM
I would still say the extra $100-200 for a Colt will add value in the future if you really want to do some customization. A Springfield mil-spec is a fine choice, too.

There's nothing fundamentally wrong with a lot of these 1911's that build base pistols. Kimber, S&W, Colt, Springfield, Sig, Para, Dan Wesson, Taurus....



As much as I like S&W 1911's, they are not good base guns simply because a lot of smiths won't work on them.

gn3hz3ku1*
10-17-2007, 8:04 PM
I find the irony of a Philippines-manufactured 1911 funny. (RIA Tactical)

are you refering to the fact that the 45 was designed to shot philippinos?

oghl888
10-17-2007, 8:06 PM
Funny you mention that, some people really didn't mind those Norinco 1911's that were coming in at one time, especially for the price and a little buffing out here and there.


I have one of those Norinco 1911, and have put a lot of money into it. It was my best shooting gun till about 2002. But the extractor needed tuning way too often, unlike those external extractors that would just run and run :)

yallknowho
10-17-2007, 8:17 PM
there's a colt series 80 on sale in the for sale forum for 575... the guy lives in LA though.

BaronW
10-17-2007, 8:57 PM
are you refering to the fact that the 45 was designed to shot philippinos?

Yes.

aplinker
10-17-2007, 9:00 PM
are you refering to the fact that the 45 was designed to shot philippinos?

I believe it's Filipinos. The old Moro vs. .38spl stuff... forgot about that...

That is funny.

RECCE556
10-17-2007, 9:36 PM
I owe (and still buy) several foreign made 1911s but they're mostly 1911s that are no longer made or no longer imported and I leave them in as original of condition as possible (they're strictly for collecting). I still own a couple SA's (one that is mildly upgraded, one stock) but when I'm dumping serious money into a 1911, it's a Colt.

I have one of those Norinco 1911, and have put a lot of money into it. It was my best shooting gun till about 2002. But the extractor needed tuning way too often...
Did you have the original ChiCom made extractor? If you put in a quality bar stock one and it kept going out of adjustment, I think you were either shooting a TON of ammo (tens of thousands) or there was something wrong with the gun. One of my SA's had an internal extractor that I had to change out early on (because the factory SA junk MIM extractor failed miserably) with a bar stock extractor and about 10K round later, I haven't messed with it and it works great. Maybe it's just me. :)

Listen, you don't have to believe me but when someone like Hiton Yam (10-8 owner and one of the "elite" 1911 'smiths) says there are problems with S&W external extractor (and the 10-8 guys are PRO-S&W!), that says something. He says most buyers won't notice it because most of these buyers are "commercial" buyers who never get into a high round count.

Also note that Kimber stopped making external extractor 1911's after their well known and documented problems with their external extractors. I have nothing against externals. I own several pistols with externals (well, all my non-1911's actually) but in a 1911, for whatever reason, internal extractors work well so long as it's made to spec and made with good quality materials. MIM, undersized, poorly adjusted, etc. type internals will fail sooner or later but I have NEVER seen proof that it's inherently due to the design.

Outlaw
10-18-2007, 7:44 PM
I believe it's Filipinos. The old Moro vs. .38spl stuff... forgot about that...

That is funny.

I think it was 45lc used to take down Filipino boogiemen.

aplinker
10-18-2007, 10:09 PM
I think it was 45lc used to take down Filipino boogiemen.

Wikipedia says...

The .45 Colt Single Action Army had largely been replaced, even by some double action versions of the same. The Cavalry had fielded some double action revolvers in .38 Long Colt, and they determined that the .38 caliber round was significantly less effective against determined opponents, such as those encountered in the Moro Rebellion warriors they were fighting at the time of the Philippine-American war, than the .45 Colt.

Astig Boy
10-18-2007, 10:33 PM
I believe it's Filipinos. The old Moro vs. .38spl stuff... forgot about that...

That is funny.
I think it was 45lc used to take down Filipino boogiemen.

True dat. I just have to also add, if it werent for the Filipinos, the beloved 1911 would of been chambered and issued in 38ACP, not 45ACP. Kiss a Filipino for keeping the 45 alive. :D

aplinker
10-18-2007, 11:08 PM
True dat. I just have to also add, if it werent for the Filipinos, the beloved 1911 would of been chambered and issued in 38ACP, not 45ACP. Kiss a Filipino for keeping the 45 alive. :D

Yes, that's true.

It's a good thing that happened or our military might be using a .38 sized round. What does that translate into in mm's, anyway? ;)

What Just Happened?
10-19-2007, 7:21 AM
About 9mm

Outlaw
10-20-2007, 12:08 AM
Wikipedia says...

I'm corrected. 45acp it is.

gn3hz3ku1*
10-20-2007, 1:28 AM
when did SA start using brazil parts? i think if you get a used one you might be able to get a US made one?

RECCE556
10-20-2007, 3:36 AM
when did SA start using brazil parts? i think if you get a used one you might be able to get a US made one?
They have been using Brazillian Frames and Slides for a long time now. I'm not sure exactly what else is Brazillian in the gun but I would imagine most of it (more cost effective).

There's nothing particularly wrong with the Imbel manufactured guns (they make great FAL's) but some people, for a 1911 at least, want a U.S. Made gun.

I will say though, SA's "loaded" 1911's have gone downhill since I purchased mine many moons ago. They now use no-name knock-off Novaks (that are poorly finished) and the fit and finish is mostly a miss. From the about two dozen samples I saw recently, I would say only two of them were decent but none of them were as good as the ones from several years ago. They weren't horrible but you could tell that they're cutting corners. Their higher end models still looked the same.

gn3hz3ku1*
10-20-2007, 8:46 AM
thank god i got a loaded thats dont have the made in brazil logo then...

Bongos
10-20-2007, 9:09 AM
when did SA start using brazil parts? i think if you get a used one you might be able to get a US made one?

US Springfield were made in the 1970s and had an NM start serial numbers, but nowadays with current guns with NM start serial number, you can't tell..

Bongos
10-20-2007, 9:12 AM
They have been using Brazillian Frames and Slides for a long time now. I'm not sure exactly what else is Brazillian in the gun but I would imagine most of it (more cost effective).

Springfield has the slide and frame made and fitted in Brazil on all of their guns, on the higher grade guns like the TRP Operator with Bull Barrels..the barrel is made in Brazil and fitted to the gun...info was gather by me talking directly with Springfield

Kruzr
10-20-2007, 7:06 PM
thank god i got a loaded thats dont have the made in brazil logo then...

If it doesn't say Made in Brazil on the bottom of the dust cover, then check under the right hand grip. :)

grim1U
10-20-2007, 9:41 PM
I like the SA mil spec and GI models. Of course, you can't go wrong with a Series 70 Colt either, but that's a little harder to do in California, sigh.

RECCE556
10-21-2007, 8:09 PM
Springfield has the slide and frame made and fitted in Brazil on all of their guns, on the higher grade guns like the TRP Operator with Bull Barrels..the barrel is made in Brazil and fitted to the gun...info was gather by me talking directly with Springfield
This must be pretty recent then. Last time I spoke with SA (this was several years ago), they said their higher end models were made more here than there (80% frames/slides in Brazil then finished here). Looks like SA decided to move more of the production over in Brazil to save money. Funny though, their retail prices have gone up. :)

If it doesn't say Made in Brazil on the bottom of the dust cover, then check under the right hand grip. :) Exactly. ;)

JandJArmory
10-22-2007, 2:29 PM
This must be pretty recent then. Last time I spoke with SA (this was several years ago), they said their higher end models were made more here than there (80% frames/slides in Brazil then finished here). Looks like SA decided to move more of the production over in Brazil to save money. Funny though, their retail prices have gone up. :)

Exactly. ;)

Kimber Im a dealer for them and can get you a great price

RECCE556
10-22-2007, 3:32 PM
Kimber Im a dealer for them and can get you a great price
Based on my experience with Kimbers, you'd have to be selling them at a huge lost (1/2 of dealer cost) for me to even consider 'em. :D

mike100
10-22-2007, 4:24 PM
I Bought an all carbon steel (matte blued) Colt 1991A1 for $570 used (barely if at all) a year ago. I'd rather have big name marques used over new entry level imports.

The 1991 colt is itself the low cost model and a couple of parts get swapped for tool steel parts right off the bat, but still, good base for a build.

maxicon
10-22-2007, 7:55 PM
OK, as long as I'm posting it in the other thread, I'll stick it in this one too.

Here's my Milspec, with a 24 shot group at 10 yards. I'm always happy with groups like this - maybe not a bullseye match winner, but good enough!

http://www.maxicon.com/guns/pics/milspec_group_1a.jpg

five.five-six
10-22-2007, 8:07 PM
I got the Springfield GI. If I did it again, I'd get the Milspec for the nicer sights. I think Gunsnrovers hit the nail on the head-- get a nice low cost platform, shoot it a bunch and then decide what you want to upgrade.

+1 on that.
the GI is great if you are going to keep it stock, but if you plan on souping it up, go with the milspec, it will save you a bunch of money

I have a GI and love it but pricing out new sights and the machine work to install them, it would bee cheeper to buy a used alide with the features I want

supersonic
12-17-2007, 11:37 AM
I really hate to dig up an old thread, but I was out shooting my S&W 1911 yesterday for the first time in a few months, and the amazing way it still shoots (after so many thousands of rounds & the fact that the last time I cleaned it was 3 range trips ago all without ONE malfunction), plus the fact that a fellow CalGunner I was shooting with, who had never fired a 1911 before, put 2 BIG holes on top of each other in the bullseye @ 15 yds. in his first two shots made me think of 2 things. 1) I have NEVER been so convinced that the shop that sold me that gun for $950 made some kind of major error (to MY advantage) on their pricing, and 2) I thought that THIS would make some very interesting reading for Recce556:http://forum.m1911.org/showthread.php?t=35321&page=1&pp=10