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CaliforniaCarry
10-11-2007, 9:54 PM
Do "DOJ certified" know-it-alls ever get on your nerves? I had my first experience with one tonight.

I turn 21 in just over a month, and I intend to purchase my first handgun on my birthday. I visited the range earlier with the intent of taking the HSC test and getting the certificate. This way (I figured), I would have it when I go to make my purchase.

So I walk in and ask them if I can take the test. One of the newer employees (who had apparently never administered the test before) took my ID and credit card, handed me the test and an answer sheet, and charged me 25 bucks. After I was done (apparently the don't check your ID before hand), he was like "Wait, you're under 21? Is this even legal?". Predicting that this question might come up, I referred him to 12803 PC and the DOJ's website, both of which clearly indicate that a person only needs to be 18 to take the test. That seemed to satisfy him, so he filled out the certificate and had me sign it.

Before he handed the certificate to me the employee decided that he wasn't comfortable doing something he hadn't verified to be legal (a wise move in CA, to be sure). I told him that I wouldn't be offended if he double-checked with the on-site DOJ instructor, so he proceeded to find him. A minute or so later, this older, overweight, balding, white guy (the ultimate gun-nut stereotype, I know) comes back and starts breathing down my neck about how this is completely illegal, and how I could get arrested and they could get in trouble with the DOJ if they issue it.

Knowing that this was perfectly within the law (and having verified it several times myself, just to be sure), I tried to reason with him for several minutes and asked if I could show him the law and the DOJ website. Of course, he said no, and basically said that none of that mattered, and that nothing I could do would change his mind on the legality of the matter. After all, he didn't need this "law" that I spoke of, he was a DOJ certified instructor! I would have been perfectly content and not the least bit upset if he had said something like "we're not comfortable issuing to someone under 21, so we're going to have to turn you down", but instead I was accused of breaking the law and trying to get an HSC so I could perform a straw purchase before I was 21.

Doesn't it upset you when "DOJ Certified" individuals (and others who should actually know the laws) are so full of themselves that they just can't listen? Geez, and to think I was going to spend almost $1000 there in a month or so.

What makes me sadder is that there was this young impressionable employee who had no idea what the law actually said, and now he likely believes the same load of BS that this "DOJ certified" jerk does.

What sucks even more is that this place practically has a monopoly on gun sales in my area, and the next nearest retailer that I've been able to find is over 40 miles away.

--- end of rant --

rkt88edmo
10-11-2007, 9:58 PM
That is unfortunate. Did they refund all of your money at least?

moulton
10-11-2007, 10:05 PM
tell him to look at the bottom paragraph on page 10 of this form
http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/hscman.pdf#xml=http://search.doj.ca.gov:8004/AGSearch/isysquery/c7461cf0-c727-4343-ae35-c902aeef2f40/1/hilite/

Corbin Dallas
10-11-2007, 10:09 PM
tell him to look at the bottom paragraph on page 10 of this form
http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/hscman.pdf#xml=http://search.doj.ca.gov:8004/AGSearch/isysquery/c7461cf0-c727-4343-ae35-c902aeef2f40/1/hilite/

PWNED!!!!

Highlight it for him and return with HSC Handbook in hand. Then loudly tell the guy he's a complete idiot and his license to issue the DOJ approved test should be revoked.

What a tool...

Paradiddle
10-11-2007, 10:16 PM
Drive 40 miles and buy somewhere else. Write the owner of the shop that has the DOJ spaz and tell him you spent your $1000 elsewhere JUST because this guy is a jerk. Also - send him a copy of the law.

40 miles is nothing in California - it's only a couple hours... ;)

The SoCal Gunner
10-11-2007, 10:18 PM
Care to share the store name?

superhondaz50
10-11-2007, 10:39 PM
What BS, I took my test when I was 19, my brother took it on his 18th. I give people ages 18-20 HSC's all the time. Ya find another dealer.

CaliforniaCarry
10-11-2007, 10:47 PM
http://www.oaktreegunclub.com/

I shoot there semi-frequently (they have this annoying policy of not renting handguns to anyone under 21, which means my wife has to rent for me :o, is there a law somewhere that specifies this?). They have a decent (but a little overpriced, IMO) shop with a fair amount of handguns for sale. HSC tests are administered at the pistol range.

I wasn't aware that the age requirement was listed in the handbook. I didn't even read the handbook before I took the test, and I still got 30 out of 30 correct (some of the questions are just retarded, not that I'm complaining). I briefly looked at the handbook they had and tried to find it, but I had no idea where to look.

I will send them an email and a letter containing what happened, the relevant sections of the penal code, a link to the DOJ's website, and a reference to the HSC handbook. If they're willing to issue me a certificate in spite of what this one *******'s opinion of the law is, then I'll probably still be inclined to purchase from them.

Yes, they did refund my $25 once they realized their "mistake".

T-Bear
10-11-2007, 10:53 PM
Sorry to hear what happend, but This is your first encounter with stupid gun store workers. Take your money elsewhere. In time you will find a good honest gun store that will keep you comming back. I will only buy firearms and acc. in 3 stores in So Cal. There hard to come by it's worth the effort to find one.

tdo315
10-11-2007, 10:54 PM
There are plenty of stores within a 20-30 minute drive of Santa Clarita (assuming that's where you live). Just make sure to send a copy of the handbook with the relevant parts highlighted along with a nice note and a picture of the pistol you purchased somewhere else.

N6ATF
10-11-2007, 10:58 PM
Report him for gross incompetence.

CaliforniaCarry
10-11-2007, 11:02 PM
There are plenty of stores within a 20-30 minute drive of Santa Clarita (assuming that's where you live). Just make sure to send a copy of the handbook with the relevant parts highlighted along with a nice note and a picture of the pistol you purchased somewhere else.

Really? Where? The nearest one I can locate is, like I said, 40 miles from me in Simi Valley. If there are others, please let me know, as that would absolutely make my day :D

dfens
10-11-2007, 11:05 PM
Most ranges if not all of the ones I've been to it's company policy that you have to be 21 or over to rent a handgun.

Not to sound like a dick but what does it matter if you take the test now or on your 21st birthday?

When I turned 21 and bought my first gun, I took the test that day I bought it passed, waited the 10 days and picked up my gun.

It only takes like 10-15 minutes. Even if you have one you still have to wait the stupid 10 days.

As for going 40 miles out of your way unless you want to waste gas for a total of 160 miles total and pay more for the gun you wanted just go back. When purchasing make sure not to deal with that one guy and refuse to buy unless someone else helps you.

For me it's very hard to offend me to the point where I won't shop somewhere. Unless their products are crap or the prices too dam much.

Save as much as you can I'll only spend more on something if they are the only ones who have it and you have no choice. And I have to have it that very second.

CaliforniaCarry
10-11-2007, 11:53 PM
Most ranges if not all of the ones I've been to it's company policy that you have to be 21 or over to rent a handgun.

Not to sound like a dick but what does it matter if you take the test now or on your 21st birthday?

When I turned 21 and bought my first gun, I took the test that day I bought it passed, waited the 10 days and picked up my gun.

It only takes like 10-15 minutes. Even if you have one you still have to wait the stupid 10 days.

As for going 40 miles out of your way unless you want to waste gas for a total of 160 miles total and pay more for the gun you wanted just go back. When purchasing make sure not to deal with that one guy and refuse to buy unless someone else helps you.

For me it's very hard to offend me to the point where I won't shop somewhere. Unless their products are crap or the prices too dam much.

Save as much as you can I'll only spend more on something if they are the only ones who have it and you have no choice. And I have to have it that very second.

It's not so much the practicality of the matter as it is the principle. Sure, I could easily go back and take the test on my 21rst birthday. The problem I have is that this particular instructor was extremely rude, accused me of conspiring to commit a crime, and had the "I don't care what the law actually says" attitude. Is it really the best business decision to make your customers feel like that? As a paying customer who intends to spend several thousand dollars purchasing handguns over the next year or so, I believe I deserve a little bit of patience and respect, don't you?

I don't get easily offended, but incorrectly accusing me of criminal activity happens to be one of my buttons. Refusing to listen to reason and disregarding the law when presented with it are two others.

leelaw
10-12-2007, 12:01 AM
If you're in the Bay Area, let me know and I can set you up with a HSC without bull, and a good deal on your handgun of choice. :D

N6ATF
10-12-2007, 12:36 AM
If you need to take the class and you don't have dyslexia that would prevent you from READING the copious amounts of information on the internet and in library books about the subject... you shouldn't be getting a gun.

I reviewed the official online study guide for the hell of it. Passed the real thing 100%.

aplinker
10-12-2007, 12:37 AM
Isn't wife-husband an intrafamilial transfer? Couldn't his wife purchase and then gift it to him?

leelaw
10-12-2007, 1:03 AM
Isn't wife-husband an intrafamilial transfer? Couldn't his wife purchase and then gift it to him?

Intrafamilial transfers move vertically, not horizontally, through the family tree.

The SoCal Gunner
10-12-2007, 2:19 AM
Not to sound like a dick but what does it matter if you take the test now or on your 21st birthday?

When I turned 21 and bought my first gun, I took the test that day I bought it passed, waited the 10 days and picked up my gun.




Let's say his mom or pop wanted to give the guy a gun before he turned 21, he would still be required to have an HSC in order to possess the gun.

Corbin Dallas
10-12-2007, 7:33 AM
I'm pretty sure you cannot gift a handgun to anyone under the age of 21. Unless they are military or LEO.

Fjold
10-12-2007, 8:50 AM
Intrafamilial transfers move vertically, not horizontally, through the family tree.

The DOJ BOF frequently asked questions says:

Can I give a firearm to my spouse or registered domestic partner? Can he/she give it back to me later?

Yes, as long as the person receiving the firearm is not in a prohibited category [PDF 10 kb / 1 pg] and the firearm is not an assault weapon, the transfer of a firearm between a husband and wife or registered domestic partners is exempt from the requirement to use a licensed dealer to perform the transfer. However, if the firearm is a handgun, the recipient must submit an Report of Operation of Law or Intra-Familial Handgun Transaction [PDF 481 kb / 2 pg] and $19 fee to the DOJ within 30 days.

(PC sections 12076(f), 12078(i))

cobra198
10-12-2007, 11:34 AM
Hmmm, that is lame... Its their loss though. I would definitely take my business to a different dealer if I were you. One thats knowlegable, respectible, and friendly. Afterall, thats why its good to support local shops. Someone here will surely point you in the right direction.

leelaw
10-12-2007, 11:39 AM
The DOJ BOF frequently asked questions says:

Can I give a firearm to my spouse or registered domestic partner? Can he/she give it back to me later?

Yes, as long as the person receiving the firearm is not in a prohibited category [PDF 10 kb / 1 pg] and the firearm is not an assault weapon, the transfer of a firearm between a husband and wife or registered domestic partners is exempt from the requirement to use a licensed dealer to perform the transfer. However, if the firearm is a handgun, the recipient must submit an Report of Operation of Law or Intra-Familial Handgun Transaction [PDF 481 kb / 2 pg] and $19 fee to the DOJ within 30 days.

(PC sections 12076(f), 12078(i))
Huh, I knew it was legal, however thought it was covered by something other than the intrafamilial transfer.

leelaw
10-12-2007, 11:40 AM
I'm pretty sure you cannot gift a handgun to anyone under the age of 21. Unless they are military or LEO.

Parents can gift handguns to their children once the reach the age of 18, and as long as they possess a HSC.

The SoCal Gunner
10-12-2007, 2:38 PM
Never shop there again, tell the owner you'll never shp there again, post about this on every gun forum you can, and keep causing a ruckus until they apologize and fire that moron.

Firing is a little extreme but a sincere apology from the owner and the DOJ certified instructor and correcting the problem would be nice not to mention a token of appreciation for wasting your time.

SFFRONTMAN
10-12-2007, 2:45 PM
Im a certified hsc instructor with the state, If you need I can set you up with a test, no problems. Unlike some hsc people, many of us believe in reading the instructions and laws.

gordoe
10-12-2007, 3:08 PM
Im a certified hsc instructor with the state, If you need I can set you up with a test, no problems. Unlike some hsc people, many of us believe in reading the instructions and laws.

Im 20 yrs old and i wanted to take the HSC, some local shops don't really want to do it when i ask them about it, Im in Redwood City, do you think i could set up a test with you? Let me know.

odysseus
10-12-2007, 4:13 PM
This is kind of funny, because this is the 2nd HSC test story I have heard in a week where the shop shoots themselves in the foot, so to speak.

A friend of mine in his late 30's has gotten back into wanting to shoot, and hadn't gotten an updated "certificate" since the first versions years ago. So he walks into a big hunt\sporting store in the Sacramento area, which will remain nameless right now, and steps up to the plate to look at a Sig and take the test. Keep in the mind, my friend looks clean, educated, and money, so any sales person worth 2 cents could smell this guy coming with a wad to buy and keep buying.

He asks the guy at the counter about renewing his HSC and looking at buying a sig. Guy is straight just rude and says tests only given at this so and so hours. Fine, but then he doesn't care to show him any of the guns (stupid). Then my friend buys the book and then the guy says he needs to actually leave the premises for at least an hour (whatever). But then he says "you don't have to take the test here either" like he didn't want to do it, and that he wasn't going to be around to give the test in an hour anyway. My friend basically felt he was dealing with a 99% fool and didn't want to now buy a gun from him or the store, much less reward him for the attitude.

BTW - he called me and I sent him to River City, and he is droppin ca$h down there like he just renewed his childhood adventures.

Sometimes, it amazes me how some people don't think it's a business, and/or the owners have no idea how their staff really are. You build relationships with customer service and thinking the big picture. Now this place will lose thousands of dollars in purchases to another store.

Someguy925
10-12-2007, 4:22 PM
Gessh that's terrible. How are shows suppose to make money if they keep treating new potential customers ($$$) like rubish.

Charlie Foxtrot
10-12-2007, 5:22 PM
I will only buy firearms and acc. in 3 stores in So Cal. There hard to come by it's worth the effort to find one.

Care to share those three stores T-Bear? I live in Long Beach, and I'm looking for a store that I can feel good about patronizing. Not too many left in SoKal.

Thanx!

Fjold
10-12-2007, 5:47 PM
I'm way over 21

I went into 2nd Amendment Sports here in Bakersfield last year to get an HSC. They told me that they wouldn't let me take the test unless I was buying a gun there.

That's the last time I was in there. Now I just drive the 30+ miles to Taft every time I buy a gun.

ARRRR-15
10-12-2007, 6:09 PM
Never shop there again, tell the owner you'll never shp there again, post about this on every gun forum you can, and keep causing a ruckus until they apologize and fire that moron.

+1. If someone won't look up a law as small as this, how can we expect them to help in other more important matters? I say Zumbo him.:p

stagolee
10-12-2007, 6:55 PM
Anybody ever hear of shops not allowing potential customers to handle pistols unless they present an HSC?

My wife happened to be in the San Bruno area a few weeks ago so she went into Tabors but was unable to hold a pistol because she didn't have her HSC with her.

Is this an emerging trend?

Whatever the case, she was extremely annoyed and has vowed to avoid Tabors in the future. She faced no such barriers down the street at Imbert & Smithers.

tdo315
10-12-2007, 7:54 PM
Really? Where? The nearest one I can locate is, like I said, 40 miles from me in Simi Valley. If there are others, please let me know, as that would absolutely make my day :D

Just off the top of my head,

Firing-line in Burbank or Northridge
Metroshot
Turners in Reseda
There is a small shop\range near the Van Nuys airport but I can't remember the name right now.

bleucamaro
10-12-2007, 8:01 PM
This is kind of funny, because this is the 2nd HSC test story I have heard in a week where the shop shoots themselves in the foot, so to speak.

A friend of mine in his late 30's has gotten back into wanting to shoot, and hadn't gotten an updated "certificate" since the first versions years ago. So he walks into a big hunt\sporting store in the Sacramento area, which will remain nameless right now, and steps up to the plate to look at a Sig and take the test. Keep in the mind, my friend looks clean, educated, and money, so any sales person worth 2 cents could smell this guy coming with a wad to buy and keep buying.

He asks the guy at the counter about renewing his HSC and looking at buying a sig. Guy is straight just rude and says tests only given at this so and so hours. Fine, but then he doesn't care to show him any of the guns (stupid). Then my friend buys the book and then the guy says he needs to actually leave the premises for at least an hour (whatever). But then he says "you don't have to take the test here either" like he didn't want to do it, and that he wasn't going to be around to give the test in an hour anyway. My friend basically felt he was dealing with a 99% fool and didn't want to now buy a gun from him or the store, much less reward him for the attitude.

BTW - he called me and I sent him to River City, and he is droppin ca$h down there like he just renewed his childhood adventures.

Sometimes, it amazes me how some people don't think it's a business, and/or the owners have no idea how their staff really are. You build relationships with customer service and thinking the big picture. Now this place will lose thousands of dollars in purchases to another store.

This wouldn't have been at Sportsman's Warehouse would it? I received very similar treatment when I was shopping for my first gun. The counter was very busy with lookyloos, so thats why I figured they were rude. I gave them a second chance when they were less busy and talked to a nicer guy, but what I was looking for wasn't in stock, they wouldn't order it for me, and they had no idea what they were getting in the next shipment, or when it was coming in. It made it sound like their distributor just sends them whatever he feels like. Anyway, I went somwhere else :D

Corbin Dallas
10-12-2007, 8:56 PM
Parents can gift handguns to their children once the reach the age of 18, and as long as they possess a HSC.

Lee, could you point me out to this one?

SFFRONTMAN
10-13-2007, 8:46 PM
gordoe, im in San Rafael, if you want to make the trip id be more than happy to issue an hsc test.

leelaw
10-13-2007, 10:25 PM
Lee, could you point me out to this one?

Looking for it.. maybe I have federal confused with CA, but fed says: 18 to own longgun or handgun, 21 to buy handgun. Silly.

AggregatVier
10-14-2007, 12:31 PM
OK, so you're in Simi Valley (93065) and you were treated terribly at a gun store there. There's one said to be very astute (Fort Courage Armory) and another while there's been questions about their competency and customer friendliness (name something like an old German lady), others vouch for them. Or did I miss the Bullseye?

Which one snubbed you?

Gunaria
10-14-2007, 12:42 PM
It sounds like there are 3 words of the law here about this...

BUYING

GIFTING

POSSESION

Now my question is about the thrid one. If you are under 21 and get pulled over by a LEO and he or she finds you with a handgun, what do you think is going to happen? Just something to think about. Even though everything was done legally, you may end up losing that hand gun for awhile.

Fjold
10-14-2007, 1:56 PM
It sounds like there are 3 words of the law here about this...

BUYING

GIFTING

POSSESION

Now my question is about the thrid one. If you are under 21 and get pulled over by a LEO and he or she finds you with a handgun, what do you think is going to happen? Just something to think about. Even though everything was done legally, you may end up losing that hand gun for awhile.


What's to think about? Should he just not go shooting until he's 21?

You could say the same thing about OL rifles for everyone.

tdo315
10-14-2007, 5:29 PM
OK, so you're in Simi Valley (93065) and you were treated terribly at a gun store there. There's one said to be very astute (Fort Courage Armory) and another while there's been questions about their competency and customer friendliness (name something like an old German lady), others vouch for them. Or did I miss the Bullseye?

Which one snubbed you?

He is in Valencia and you are thinking of Greta's Guns in Simi Valley. There are a few closer options for him I think.

CSDGuy
10-14-2007, 5:58 PM
The last time I purchased a pistol, I did not have to show an HSC card... I showed an exemption to it... :cool2:

Now then, that being said, most of the ways to get an exemption to the HSC will cost much more than the $25 for the HSC.