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cheet
10-07-2007, 11:13 PM
Is it legal to keep an unloaded OLL with a gunlock in my trunk at all times if the mags are kept in the front of the car?

Tweak338
10-07-2007, 11:14 PM
Perfectly Legal. And a gunlock isn't even needed for longarms. Unless your within blah feet of a school..
Also the trunk counts as a locked container IIRC.

internet_user
10-07-2007, 11:22 PM
what about having a rifle in your back seat, the mags (unloaded) in the side pouch of the gun case and the ammo on the floor of the passengers seat

bwiese
10-07-2007, 11:29 PM
I would counsel OLL rifle owners to not transport their rifles casually, but locked in cases and not thrown in the back seat.

Why bait yourself into a situation that's avoidable?

Liberty1
10-07-2007, 11:34 PM
what about having a rifle in your back seat, the mags (unloaded) in the side pouch of the gun case and the ammo on the floor of the passengers seat

Not prohibited, but 1000' Fed. School Zone applies if not in a locked case or locked longarm vehicle mount.

Heck keep the mags loaded in the side pouch. (PC 12031g and People v Clark)

It's hard to wield a rifle in a car; leave it in the trunk. Just go for an unloaded pistol in a quick open safe or in plain view on the passenger seat with loaded mags not in the mag well and no round in the chamber. (PC 12031g, 12025, 12026.1a) (watch out for 626.9 if it's in plain view.)

Happy carrying.

http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum12/4842.html

internet_user
10-07-2007, 11:35 PM
I would counsel OLL rifle owners to not transport their rifles casually, but locked in cases and not thrown in the back seat.

Why bait yourself into a situation that's avoidable?

well i wasnt talking about an oll, just a 10/22.

Not prohibited, but 1000' Fed. School Zone applies if not in a locked case or locked longarm vehicle mount.

Heck keep the mags loaded in the side pouch. (PC 12031g and People v Clark)

It's hard to wield a rifle in a car; leave it in the trunk. Just go for an unloaded pistol in a quick open safe or in plain view on the passenger seat with loaded mags not in the mag well and no round in the chamber. (PC 12031g, 12025, 12026.1a) (watch out for 626.9 if it's in plain view.)

Happy carrying.

http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum12/4842.html

thanks for the advice. usually i only carry my guns in my cars when im going to the range and back. sometimes i bring a few over to my friends house in case we feel like going shooting.

(g) A firearm shall be deemed to be loaded for the purposes of this section when there is an unexpended
cartridge or shell in, or attached in any manner to, the firearm, including, but not limited to, in the firing chamber,
magazine, or clip thereof attached to the firearm. **

so having a loaded mag in the side pouch of the rifle case is a bad idea?

aplinker
10-08-2007, 12:12 AM
well i wasnt talking about an oll, just a 10/22.



thanks for the advice. usually i only carry my guns in my cars when im going to the range and back. sometimes i bring a few over to my friends house in case we feel like going shooting.

(g) A firearm shall be deemed to be loaded for the purposes of this section when there is an unexpended
cartridge or shell in, or attached in any manner to, the firearm, including, but not limited to, in the firing chamber,
magazine, or clip thereof attached to the firearm. **

so having a loaded mag in the side pouch of the rifle case is a bad idea?

The Clark court case referenced above defines that a loaded firearm is under the normal definition of loaded -- round in the chamber, a loaded magazine inside the magwell, or rounds in the tube mag.

You can keep rounds in a side saddle, in the rifle bag, in a magazine in the buttstock, etc.

Liberty1
10-08-2007, 12:19 AM
If you're just going to and from the range the trunk is still the best inconspicuous method. What I posted is the letter of the law and can lead to having other issues if you meet with an uninformed or hostile LEO.

want_ar
10-08-2007, 6:10 AM
Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but if a LEO sees a firearm or firearm related items (ammo, mags) in plain view in your car, it is reasonable cause for a search to verify compliance with the law. If it is in the trunk, it is not in plain view and you won't be sitting on the sidewalk while you car is being searched.

Glock22Fan
10-08-2007, 8:14 AM
Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but if a LEO sees a firearm or firearm related items (ammo, mags) in plain view in your car, it is reasonable cause for a search to verify compliance with the law. If it is in the trunk, it is not in plain view and you won't be sitting on the sidewalk while you car is being searched.

IIRC, he (or she) is allowed to search to the extent that it is determined that the gun(s) is(are) unloaded. If the gun is indeed unloaded, there is no good cause to search the car further unless the owner gives permission.

Remember that the gun displayed in this way must be totally visible, any part of the gun being hidden, even if it is just the seatbelt overlapping 1/4 inch of the butt, makes it a concealed weapon.

want_ar
10-08-2007, 8:26 AM
IIRC, he (or she) is allowed to search to the extent that it is determined that the gun(s) is(are) unloaded. If the gun is indeed unloaded, there is no good cause to search the car further unless the owner gives permission.


I agree, but the point I was trying to make is that you will still be inconvenienced and there will be a scene, so it is best to store it out of plain view.

Liberty1
10-08-2007, 8:44 AM
Remember that the gun displayed in this way must be totally visible, any part of the gun being hidden, even if it is just the seatbelt overlapping 1/4 inch of the butt, makes it a concealed weapon.

In what case law was "concealed" defined? I've heard this but never seen the citation. Also lets note that in your above statement gun should read pistol or revolver. I'm just being picky thats all.

Strange that one could be charged with "concealed" for something the officer saw and recognized "in plain sight".

I believe that if you tell the officer verbally that you are in possession of a firearm, even if he can't see it, he can insist on a 12031 check, but keep in mind this is only mandatory in 12031's defined discharge prohibited areas and incorporated cities (even thought it violates 4th and 5th Amend. protections IMHO).

Liberty1
10-08-2007, 8:55 AM
Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but if a LEO sees a firearm or firearm related items (ammo, mags) in plain view in your car, it is reasonable cause for a search to verify compliance with the law.

12031 (e) In order to determine whether or not a firearm is loaded for
the purpose of enforcing this section, peace officers are authorized
to examine any firearm carried by anyone on his or her person or in a
vehicle while in any public place or on any public street in an
incorporated city or prohibited area of an unincorporated territory.
Refusal to allow a peace officer to inspect a firearm pursuant to
this section constitutes probable cause for arrest for violation of
this section.






...

Glock22Fan
10-08-2007, 9:33 AM
The p.c. dealing with "Concealed" is pc 12025. http://www.californiaconcealedcarry.com/legal/pc12025.html

To quote "How to own a gun and stay out of jail",

The word "Concealed" has been given a very broad meaning by California courts. If any part of the gun, even just the clip, is concealed, the gun can be considered to be a concealed gun.

Note: it is John Machtinger using the word "gun" rather than "Handgun" and "clip" rather than "magazine." Don't blame me.

Liberty1
10-08-2007, 10:35 AM
The p.c. dealing with "Concealed" is pc 12025. http://www.californiaconcealedcarry.com/legal/pc12025.html .

I'm just hopping to find the case law that states that a "pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed" when in "plain view" is defined concealed if any part of it is covered however slightly. I keep hearing this and I believe my academy staff quoted this same "definition" but I have yet to read the case law on it (if any) as I don't think the PC defines "concealed" (could be wrong as it is a BIG book).



To quote "How to own a gun and stay out of jail",

Note: it is John Machtinger using the word "gun" rather than "Handgun" and "clip" rather than "magazine." Don't blame me.


He probably addressed it in the book some where. I just wanted to point out to any nubs that rifles (non CA AWs) and shotguns are not regulated in 12025 and therefore are not considered "capable of being concealed" according to the law even when not in "plain view".

Glock22Fan
10-08-2007, 11:05 AM
I think it is typical of woolly-minded politicians that they refer to handguns as ""pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed." Gosh, I could probably conceal an M1A1 tank, if I had a woodpile large enough.

Librarian
10-08-2007, 3:59 PM
He probably addressed it in the book some where. I just wanted to point out to any nubs that rifles (non CA AWs) and shotguns are not regulated in 12025 and therefore are not considered "capable of being concealed" according to the law even when not in "plain view".Yes, he covers it in Chapter 2 of his book; he believes People v Hale ( 43 Cal.App.3d 35 ) means that, because it says On the facts of the case we conclude that Officer Price had reasonable cause to search the front seat of Hale's automobile and that consequently his discovery of contraband was an incident of a lawful search. The facts known to the officer at the time of the search gave him reasonable cause to suspect Hale was committing a crime, viz. unlicensed carrying of a firearm concealed in a vehicle (Pen. Code, 12025 fn. 2 ). Only partial concealment of a firearm is required. (People v. Koehn, 25 Cal.App.3d 799 , 802 [102 Cal.Rptr. 102]; People v. Tarkington, 273 Cal.App.2d 466 , 469 [78 Cal.Rptr. 149]; People v. Linden, 185 Cal.App.2d 752 , 757 [8 Cal.Rptr. 640].) One portion of the automatic pistol, the housing and barrel, was visible, and it was reasonable for the officer to suspect concealment nearby of the remaining portion of the firearm, the automatic clip and ammunition.
...
In the light of the bizarre arsenal of weaponry Hale had installed around the driver's seat of his automobile, Officer Price had reasonable cause to suspect that a clip and ammunition for the automatic pistol might be hidden close at hand and to make a search for them. Apart from any specific Penal Code violation, the search was justified as a natural incident of the officer's right to search for weapons when he has reasonable grounds to believe a criminal suspect is "armed and presently dangerous." Not being a lawyer, I can't make anything like a convincing case for this, but I believe that does NOT say much about concealed weapons and it DOES say a lot about probable cause to search.

But I'm not the one with a law license.

I'd also dispute that the magazine and ammunition are 'a portion of the firearm', but that's a technicality.

Glock22Fan
10-08-2007, 4:09 PM
I'd also dispute that the magazine and ammunition are 'a portion of the firearm', but that's a technicality.

Librarian,

I wonder how that case would play these days after people v. Clark?

It was unloaded, but it was (partially) concealed. Therefore I guess it would still be a legitimate search. Had it been completely exposed, and empty, would the officer be entitled to go further, as P. v. C. would negate the possibility that it was "loaded?"

Any comments from our more learned brethren and sisters?

ccwguy
10-08-2007, 7:22 PM
Yes, but is a rifle capable of being concealed upon your person? My AR is 35" long, how could I conceal it on my person?

Liberty1
10-08-2007, 8:12 PM
Yes, but is a rifle capable of being concealed upon your person?

No by definition; I'll look for the cite in the PC. (I should have it stored here somewhere)

Here it is:

12001. (a) (1) As used in this title, the terms "pistol,"
"revolver," and "firearm capable of being concealed upon the person"
shall apply to and include any device designed to be used as a
weapon, from which is expelled a projectile by the force of any
explosion, or other form of combustion, and that has a barrel less
than 16 inches in length. These terms also include any device that
has a barrel 16 inches or more in length which is designed to be
interchanged with a barrel less than 16 inches in length.

Concealed rifles and shotguns with barrels over 16" can not be by law considered "concealed" in PC 12025.

ccwguy
10-09-2007, 5:19 AM
No by definition; I'll look for the cite in the PC. (I should have it stored here somewhere)

Here it is:



Concealed rifles and shotguns with barrels over 16" can not be by law considered "concealed" in PC 12025.


With that said, who's worried of it being 'concealed'? A seatbelt covering the stock would not 'conceal' it.

Glock22Fan
10-09-2007, 7:29 AM
Yes, but is a rifle capable of being concealed upon your person? My AR is 35" long, how could I conceal it on my person?

Hang it from your neck and wear a long trench coat. Those Secret Service guys guarding the President keep some pretty amazing stuff hidden under their coats.

gordoe
10-09-2007, 3:19 PM
So could I put a pistol gripped 870 Remingtion in my trunk and have it in my trunk at all times? With this type of mount? http://www.sirennet.com/tltrunk-mount.html

DedEye
10-09-2007, 3:30 PM
So could I put a pistol gripped 870 Remingtion in my trunk and have it in my trunk at all times? With this type of mount? http://www.sirennet.com/tltrunk-mount.html

Yes, as long as it was unloaded.

gordoe
10-09-2007, 3:42 PM
You know how sometime you get asked when pulled over if you have any weapons in the car, do you just say yes and declare what you have and if they don't ask, then don't tell? Off Topic, but can What are the specifics on a shotgun with the forend pistol grip and pistol grip, barrel length are both grips fine, you know all the details.

Glock22Fan
10-09-2007, 4:39 PM
You know how sometime you get asked when pulled over if you have any weapons in the car, do you just say yes and declare what you have and if they don't ask, then don't tell? Off Topic, but can What are the specifics on a shotgun with the forend pistol grip and pistol grip, barrel length are both grips fine, you know all the details.


I was once grilled pretty hard by UK customs asking "Are there any drugs on this vessel (it was an ocean going yacht full of high school children of both sexes - obviously I hadn't searched them). My reply was "To the best of my knowledge, as skipper of this yacht, there are no illegal drugs or other contraband on this yacht."

He kept asking the same question, occasionally interrupting to ask me whether or not I felt M.J. should be legalized. I kept politely giving the same answer, prefixed as required by "M.J. is currently illegal." Eventually (although he had power to do a full search) he gave up.

So, you could just tell him (and that might be the wisest course), or you could say something like "There are no illegal, illegally stored, or loaded weapons in this vehicle."

BaronW
10-10-2007, 9:54 AM
Isn't it still illegal to park at a school with a firearm of any sort, even if it's unloaded and locked in the trunk? What if you're parked too close to a school and you open your trunk to put groceries in, aren't you in violation of the law then?

Call me paranoid, but I always use locked hard cases.

Glock22Fan
10-10-2007, 1:59 PM
Isn't it still illegal to park at a school with a firearm of any sort, even if it's unloaded and locked in the trunk? What if you're parked too close to a school and you open your trunk to put groceries in, aren't you in violation of the law then?

Call me paranoid, but I always use locked hard cases.

Hey, the penal code says it should be in a locked case while being taken to or from the trunk. They don't say how you get it into your locked trunk from the locked case without unlocking both of them. Of course, if you are parked in your garage at home, that's OK, but if you need to park on public land (a public parking lot or garage) at your destination (the range?), that makes it pretty impossible most of the time.

So, locked case, even inside the trunk, would be my advice.

MudCamper
10-10-2007, 2:26 PM
There's a lot of bluring and skewing of the law and general paranoia going on in this thread.

Regarding schools, 626.9 states that firearms must be unloaded and in a locked case. I don't think it refers to a trunk at all.

Regarding transporting to/from/within a vehicle. There are not restrictions on transporting to/from the car, just exemptions to 12025. If you're not near a school, it's actually legal to carry your handgun in your hand, ammo in the other hand, and place it on the seat of your car, exposed. Now if you do that an uninformed cop will try and charge you with 12025, even though you are not actually violating it. Most people, including pro-gun organizations like CRPA, and including most cops, think that 12026.1 and .2 are restrictions, but they are not. They are exceptions to 12025. All they say are, under such-and-such conditions, 12025 does not apply.

Read 12025:

12025. (a) A person is guilty of carrying a concealed firearm when
he or she does any of the following:
(1) Carries concealed within any vehicle which is under his or her
control or direction any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable
of being concealed upon the person.
(2) Carries concealed upon his or her person any pistol, revolver,
or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person.


So if it's not concealed, you're not violating any law (unless you're near a school, damn 626.9). Read my flyer. (http://www.paul.net/guns/CaliforniaOpenCarry.pdf)

MudCamper
10-10-2007, 2:36 PM
Is it legal to keep an unloaded OLL with a gunlock in my trunk at all times if the mags are kept in the front of the car?

In answer to the original poster, yes it is. Actually, you could legally keep it in a gun-rack in the front, with mags attached to the buttstock. BUT. Most LEO don't even understand 12025 and 12031, let alone all the subtlties of 12276, so no matter what you do, you would probably end up in hand cuffs, even though you are obeying all laws.

So, if you want to carry a gun in your car at all times, I'd recommend against OLLs.

edit: removed incorrect info

Liberty1
10-10-2007, 3:21 PM
And because of 626.9 even an exposed rifle is a bad idea.

626.9 PC doesn't apply to longarms (I'll find the cite later), but the Fed School Zone does. The only difference is that state cops generally don't apply fed law and the FBI is not generally pulling traffic stops and encountering unlocked long arms. I wonder how often and to whom any fed. school zone charges have been applied.

MudCamper
10-10-2007, 3:34 PM
626.9 PC doesn't apply to longarms (I'll find the cite later), but the Fed School Zone does. The only difference is that state cops generally don't apply fed law and the FBI is not generally pulling traffic stops and encountering unlocked long arms. I wonder how often and to whom any fed. school zone charges have been applied.

Yes. You are correct:

626.9. (a) This section shall be known, and may be cited, as the
Gun-Free School Zone Act of 1995.
(b) Any person who possesses a firearm in a place that the person
knows, or reasonably should know, is a school zone, as defined in
paragraph (1) of subdivision (e), unless it is with the written
permission of the school district superintendent, his or her
designee, or equivalent school authority, shall be punished as
specified in subdivision (f).
(c) Subdivision (b) does not apply to the possession of a firearm
under any of the following circumstances:
(1) Within a place of residence or place of business or on private
property, if the place of residence, place of business, or private
property is not part of the school grounds and the possession of the
firearm is otherwise lawful.
(2) When the firearm is an unloaded pistol, revolver, or other
firearm capable of being concealed on the person and is in a locked
container or within the locked trunk of a motor vehicle.
This section does not prohibit or limit the otherwise lawful
transportation of any other firearm, other than a pistol, revolver,
or other firearm capable of being concealed on the person, in
accordance with state law.


Second half of (2). But why did they word it so vaguely? Why didn't they just state "firearm capable of being concealed" in (b)?