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gbran
10-07-2007, 8:46 PM
Hope this is the right forum. It's technical, not legal.

My CA CCW has 3 lines for handguns. I've asked the sherriffs clerk if it is possible to list more than 3. She answered in the negative. I've not inquired higher up the food chain. A poster on another forum stated that his permit had a statement at the bottom that said "Use additional pages if necessary". Mine doesn't.

Anybody have any insight into this issue? Is it written into law or regulation?

CSDGuy
10-07-2007, 9:10 PM
There is no legal restriction on the number of weapons on the license per se. However, the issuing authority can set the number of weapons that will be listed on the licenses issued by that authority. Most restrict to 3... some go lower, a couple will allow more.

Glock22Fan
10-07-2007, 9:13 PM
Ask, preferably in writing: "Could you show me the written policy that restricts me to three?"

AFAIK, there is nothing whatsoever in p.c. 12050 (or any other penal code) to restrict it to three, but then again, neither is there anything to prevent the sheriff from restricting it. However, restrictions like that should be in their written policy.

Some sheriffs have this restriction, others don't.

MadMex
10-08-2007, 4:44 AM
Ask, preferably in writing: "Could you show me the written policy that restricts me to three?"
In the ugly world of subjective issuing practices, that should really help you chances at a renewal.

gbran
10-08-2007, 5:51 AM
Good point. As hard as these permits are to get, I probably won't push my luck by asking this question, especially since my permit is up for renewal in a few months.

Wulf
10-08-2007, 6:19 AM
Part of the problem is, I think, that the CLEO's dont really get Gunnies, and they dont really get the realities of a person carrying concealed in non-permissive environments.

For the CLEO trying to keep a whole department of officers qualified on their one side arm and one or two long arms is a huge, expensive, never ending battle. I think a big reason many departments cap you at three, is that they dont really think you can maintain proficiency on any more than that. And the truth is...for much of their CCW population they're probably right. So its really a policy aimed at the average rather one that tries to accommodate the most advanced and proficient.

Secondly, your average CLEO is almost certainly a career LEO and so has probably never carried a weapon on a civilian permit. They've never had to fear a potential negative repercussion or hassle if they got made carrying. If they get made, they flash tin, no problem...people expect them do be strapped. I think the concept that a person might reasonably need a teeny tiny gun for some occasions, a medium'ish gun, a fullsize gun, and perhaps a back up for each in case a gun needs to go in for maintenance etc etc is a bit foreign. Their mindset is that they issue one gun to all their officers and that's good enough for them so 3 options should be good enough for you.

Glock22Fan
10-08-2007, 7:43 AM
In the ugly world of subjective issuing practices, that should really help you chances at a renewal.

Sadly, you may well be right, although a polite and respectful request for information certainly shouldn't be held against you.

It is sometimes necessary to draw the line between prudence and correctness, and each individual must make his or her mind up where this lies. In this case, it probably depends upon how important that information is to Gbran.

Sometimes it is necessary to stand up and be counted. I've probably upset my local sheriff so much (by asking for PRAR information on CCW permits) that he's probably looking for reasons to lock me up and throw away the key.

That's my choice. Yours might be different.

But I will reiterate, if you want to know something, ASK - preferably in writing and definately politely and respectfully.

MadMex
10-08-2007, 9:51 AM
G22F, perhaps a letter of inquiry regarding the process on how to increase the number of firearms listed rather than “calling out” a policy that you, I, and the sheriff surely know doesn’t exist on paper? I’m willing to bet that a letter would be viewed as antagonistic by some sheriffs because it creates a record. Might be best to set up an appointment for an informal conversation with the sheriff.

During my last renewal the record clerk immediately ran a check to determine if the firearms I listed were registered under the Report Of Handgun Ownership. Fortunately / unfortunately they were so all proceeded without incident. I pleasantly asked if the ROHO was a legal requirement. The records clerk danced around the question, however noted that “the county expects it.” Unfortunately, it’s a very subjective process.

Shane916
10-08-2007, 9:55 AM
While were on the subject. The listed firearms on the CCW don't have to be necessarily listed on the DOJ "Safe handgun list" as well? Correct?

Glock22Fan
10-08-2007, 10:05 AM
G22F, perhaps a letter of inquiry regarding the process on how to increase the number of firearms listed rather than “calling out” a policy that you, I, and the sheriff surely know doesn’t exist on paper? I’m willing to bet that a letter would be viewed as antagonistic by some sheriffs because it creates a record. Might be best to set up an appointment for an informal conversation with the sheriff.

During my last renewal the record clerk immediately ran a check to determine if the firearms I listed were registered under the Report Of Handgun Ownership. Fortunately / unfortunately they were so all proceeded without incident. I pleasantly asked if the ROHO was a legal requirement. The records clerk danced around the question, however noted that “the county expects it.” Unfortunately, it’s a very subjective process.

MadMex,

I am not really against your position, however TBJ feels that it is about time that Sheriffs and CoP's realize that the law is the law. They are required to have a written policy, http://www.californiaconcealedcarry.com/legal/salute.html within the law, and execute it fairly without regard to whether the applicant is a golfing buddy of the sheriff, a major contributor, a celebrity or just a common Joe or Josephine.

If there's a three weapon policy, then it should be in writing - else what's to stop the sheriff from allowing his buddies to carry four? or twelve? It may currently be a "subjective" process, but it shouldn't be. Any untrained person should be able to follow the checklist and approve/disapprove issue according to whether the right boxes are checked. If the policy says "Three weapons," then that's what everyone's allowed. If there isn't a written policy, it's open to denial of 14th amendment rights by runaround.

As far as the weapons being registered to you, I see this as being within the sheriff's discretion (hopefully they would accept weapons registered to either you or your life partner). This wouldn't offend under either the 2nd or the 14th, unless the requirement was waived for certain classes of people.

Wulf
10-08-2007, 11:05 AM
While were on the subject. The listed firearms on the CCW don't have to be necessarily listed on the DOJ "Safe handgun list" as well? Correct?


When the safe handgun thing first kicked off, there were a few internet reports of departments that were not allowing unlisted guns. I havent heard anything like that in a while though. I think its reasonable to assume that the the CLEO's eventually realized that its profoundly stupid to tell somebody that their gun they've been carrying on their permit for years, that was "safe" last year, has been rendered "unsafe" by the manufacturers decision not to pay the extortion to stay on the list.

Ghugly
10-08-2007, 11:32 AM
I'm afraid that the CCW issue is so weird and subjective that answering your question is all but impossible. In Tulare County there doesn't seem to be a limit on the number of guns on a permit. I say "seem" because my guess would be that it could change on a whim. I have a friend that has 19 on his, and one is a rifle. It is required that the guns be registered, however, they don't seem to care who they are registered to. As to the "Safe Gun List," I don't think it has any effect, one way or the other. When I have added guns to my permit, I've just gone to the Sheriff's Department with my gun, properly cased and locked, of course, told the person in the records department what I wanted, she looked at the gun and copied the information and typed a new permit with the gun added. I signed and added my thumbprint and out the door I went. It takes, perhaps, 10 minutes and there is no charge. If there is any checking of who the gun is registered to or if it is on the "Safe Gun List," it's been done after I've left. I don't know if this is the way it's always been done or if it is the way it will be done tomorrow.

MadMex
10-08-2007, 12:19 PM
MadMex,

I am not really against your position, however TBJ feels that it is about time that Sheriffs and CoP's realize that the law is the law. They are required to have a written policy, http://www.californiaconcealedcarry.com/legal/salute.html within the law, and execute it fairly without regard to whether the applicant is a golfing buddy of the sheriff, a major contributor, a celebrity or just a common Joe or Josephine.
Agree 100%.

An ideal situation would for someone with nothing to lose (ie, CCW renewal) to drive the clarification. I wonder if TBJ would be willing to bolt “no listed limit” onto his next foray?

Glock22Fan
10-08-2007, 12:33 PM
An ideal situation would for someone with nothing to lose (ie, CCW renewal) to drive the clarification. I wonder if TBJ would be willing to bolt “no listed limit” onto his next foray?

TBJ is concentrating on cast-iron cases with strong grounds for complaint. This is because we hope to get the domino effect rolling. If we lose a case, we have to start over (much like a domino that fails to knock down its neighbor).

I think it will be a while before we get around to this sort of thing.

QuarterBoreGunner
10-08-2007, 1:17 PM
MMmmm. My original CCW had four lines, so I qualified with four different firearms. That was about 10 years ago. Last time I qualed (2005) the issuing agency (Santa Clara SO's) had restricted the number to 2 and they instituted a minimum caliber (.380acp). The FTO that ran the range said the thinking was that you practice and carry the same guns all the time and become proficient with them as opposed to picking and choosing among a handful.
I suppose this makes sense, but it would be nice to have middle choice between the S&W Airweight .38 and the medium big Glock 30. *sigh* what can you do?

Wulf
10-08-2007, 1:36 PM
I suppose this makes sense, but it would be nice to have middle choice between the S&W Airweight .38 and the medium big Glock 30. *sigh* what can you do?

You ask the guy nicely, if you can qualify at with a 95% score on all your guns, will he let you have three. If their objection is really based on the idea that the permitie cant reasonably be expected to be proficient on more than 2 guns, this tactic should disarm them.

QuarterBoreGunner
10-08-2007, 1:55 PM
^I tried this last time I did the range qual. I didn't know in advance that the new 2 gun limit was in place so I submitted four guns and showed up at the range with four guns ready to go and was informed otherwise. Had to make quick decision between a S&W Airweight .38, a Kahr .40, a Glock 23 and a Glock 30. Decided to go with the biggest and the smallest.

Knauga
10-08-2007, 4:05 PM
If it were me, I'd just apply in Kern and decide which 3 I want on the permit. maybe TBJ could politely ask the SO about this as they've had friendly contact with this department before asking about issuance policies. ;)

Kern will issue. I think the idea of limiting the number of guns is ridiculous. As it is my Sheriff doesn't require you to qualify with all of the guns on your permit, only one of the 3, so it isn't to limit qualification. I think it really is laziness and the fact that the permit has 3 lines on it, they default to allowing 3, but I am willing to accept the 3 I have on my permit and move on, but that is my choice.

gbran
10-08-2007, 8:14 PM
FYI. Kern doesn't require you to qualify with any specific gun and doesn't even require you to qualify with one on your permit. If you want to take a .22 semi-auto to shoot and then put something else on your permit, this is OK. My dad, on the other hand, has to qualify with every gun on his permit in NV.

Knauga
10-08-2007, 8:55 PM
FYI. Kern doesn't require you to qualify with any specific gun and doesn't even require you to qualify with one on your permit. If you want to take a .22 semi-auto to shoot and then put something else on your permit, this is OK. My dad, on the other hand, has to qualify with every gun on his permit in NV.

Yeah, I don't know what Kern's requirements are, but I know other counties will make you qualify with each gun on the permit, sometimes 50-100 rounds per gun. My county had me fire 10 rounds unscored with one listed gun to qualify. They were more concerned that I actually handled my gun safely and had proper muzzle and trigger discipline. They do frown on smaller calibers however. ;)