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Californio
10-06-2007, 1:55 PM
Ok Brain Trust, I am looking for info on Condors (AB 821)

1. Camp Hunter Liggett does not allow “gut piles buried”
a. Is this still true in 2007?
b. Have Animals on Hunter Liggett been tested, 2007, for lead based on this was an active based during the war years?
2. Barnes X is the only lead free center fire bullet on the market?
3. Copper bullets have not been scientifically tested as to their affect on Condors.
4. In 1980 20% of Condor food came from feeding stations.
a. What percentage today do Condors get from feeding stations as opposed to wild kill?
5. Condors feed primarily on deer, cattle and beached seals.
a. Have dead seals been tested for lead?

6. No non-lead bullets available for .22 rimfire?

Trying to do a write-up but need more debunk info. Links help.

Thanks

otteray
10-06-2007, 3:44 PM
Ok Brain Trust, I am looking for info on Condors (AB 821)

1. Camp Hunter Liggett does not allow “gut piles buried”
a. Is this still true in 2007?
b. Have Animals on Hunter Liggett been tested, 2007, for lead based on this was an active based during the war years?
2. Barnes X is the only lead free center fire bullet on the market?
3. Copper bullets have not been scientifically tested as to their affect on Condors.
4. In 1980 20% of Condor food came from feeding stations.
a. What percentage today do Condors get from feeding stations as opposed to wild kill?
5. Condors feed primarily on deer, cattle and beached seals.
a. Have dead seals been tested for lead?

6. No non-lead bullets available for .22 rimfire?

Trying to do a write-up but need more debunk info. Links help.

Thanks

Fort Hunter Liggett and Camp Roberts are completely banning all lead.
According to the Project Gutpile folks, it's because the facilities now realize lead is very bad for cougars, rabbits and people,too!
Source:
http://projectgutpile.blogspot.com/2007/05/camp-roberts-hunting-program-is-going.html

I read somewhere, maybe here, that copper is more dangerous than lead, when ingested. A link at Proj Gut suggests otherwise: http://www.wcaslab.com/tech/condor.htm

Beached seals tested? Not likely.
Here in Santa Cruz County, when we get a call from the State Park or County beaches about a dead sea lion or seal, we take a loader or backhoe to the critters' location and transport it to the landfill.
Ggood luck on the lead based bullets.
Since they are hollow based to expand and obturate the bore, what else besides soft lead could do it?
Once again, Project Gutpile has the answer that it would be no problem to replace the lead, but thier example comparing it to other caliber bullets is flawed: http://projectgutpile.blogspot.com/2007/03/going-unleaded-by-jim-matthews.html

Their well oiled website sure makes it look like birds throughout the nation are dropping like flies and by banning lead it will magically stop it from happening

M. Sage
10-06-2007, 3:51 PM
Here you go:

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=69180&highlight=condor

Excellent de-bunk, though I'm pretty sure now that Arnold is just going to sit on his butt in China and let this time-out and pass un-signed.

M. Sage
10-06-2007, 4:08 PM
Just wanted to add that the link from Project Gutpile has some very suspect science in it:

In the early 1980’s, chemical analyses of blood sera indicated that several deaths among the remaining population of wild California Condors could be attributed to the ingestion of lead from bullet and pellet fragments in carcasses from abandoned game, shot by hunters.

How do they get that from blood work? The blood work showed lead, I'm sure, but...

Also, they get this conclusion:

It is concluded that copper and TTBTM can provide a non-toxic alternative to lead based munitions and that the adoption of these materials would reduce lead poisoning in animal scavengers.

From this experiment:

Thirty turkey vultures were trapped and randomly divided in 3 groups of 10 birds. Two of the groups were fed bovine hearts containing pellets composed either of copper or a metal composite consisting of tungsten distributed in a matrix of tin-bismuth alloy (TTBTM). Retention and movement of the pellets within the birds was monitored radiometrically each week and the administered dosage adjusted to maintain 2.3g metal/Kg body weight. The third group was not fed any pellets. Blood samples were collected from the brachial vein prior to metal exposure and then weekly for the 8 week duration of the experiment. Liver wedge biopsy samples were also collected after eight weeks of metal exposure.

Stop the bus! Where is the group being force-fed lead? How can we even conclude that lead is to blame? Has there even been an experiment done with lead like this? They only compared the effects of tungsten and copper to nothing... not tungsten and copper to lead.

otteray
10-06-2007, 4:14 PM
"Further, it is vividly clear, that foreign object ingestion and copper poisoning of chicks and fledglings is the single biggest ‘non-natural’ cause of death. This alone stands out as the single biggest impediment to wild Condor reproductive success."

Thanks for finding that post again, M. SAGE.

M. Sage
10-06-2007, 4:18 PM
No problem, but thank carsonwales. He did all the work!

Californio
10-07-2007, 11:41 AM
So the Fry Report of 2003, lists two major tracts of Condor Habitat, Hunter Leggett and the Tejon Ranch and both places have already taken steps as opposed to lead ammo as layed out in the Fry Report. Looks like AB821 is just political BS as the main areas of concern have already addressed the issues. Since AB821 does not address .22 rimfire in other areas outside Leggett and Tejon means to me that its Pedro Nava and gang are politically prostituting the Condor for their real aim, Gun Control.

Thanks for the links

I still would like to know what percentage of Condor feed is from controled feeding stations. I find only 20% mentioned in 1980 but reading many reports and between the lines it seems that majority of Condor food is being provided for them and very little Wild Kill is included in the diet now. Most info written talks about feeding stations but is sidesteps data on the percentage of the total diet.

So with Leggett, Tejon and feeding stations there is no need for AB821.

Charliegone
10-07-2007, 2:37 PM
You know what else is funny? They have this study from the early 1980's...yet they are proposing to ban lead until now! GASP!....I wonder why?:rolleyes: from Hunters.....rigggghhhhhhhtttt.

CSACANNONEER
10-07-2007, 2:39 PM
i wonder what they taste like.

Somewhere between Spotted Owl and Bald Eagle. Oh yeah, a one condor egg omlette will feed three people!

Subvertz
10-07-2007, 3:09 PM
I still think they are the source of the avian-flu pandemic.

otteray
10-07-2007, 3:51 PM
In my first response I forgot to add; those lead hollow based bullets, that I mentioned, are used in .22 rimfire ammo. That's the problem with Prj. Gut.'s info regarding .22 ammo.
Thought I should clarify that point.