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pklin1297
02-21-2013, 1:54 PM
If you had a choice between a VKT, B barrel, Sako or "Late Date" M39 that are all about the same overall condition and your priority was for a shooter, which would you pick? I know you can't know for sure if the one you get will be an accurate shooter, but just hypothetically speaking... Thanks. :)

renardsubtil
02-21-2013, 3:33 PM
Not really sure what you're referring to by "Late Date", but I'd take a B Barrel...if you mean "Late Date" as in 1968 1967 marked barrel, I'd take these - I own one, it's more accurate than I am :P

Mustang
02-21-2013, 3:56 PM
I would decide based on bore condition.

I have a B barrel, 2 1970's and a 1968...all similar bore condition and all very accurate. I also have a VKT with a "new" bore and it also very accurate.

C&Rtrader
02-21-2013, 4:35 PM
B barrel followed by a sako if it was a blind pick... otherwise i would just pull out the bore light if they were all in front of me

pklin1297
02-21-2013, 6:14 PM
Not really sure what you're referring to by "Late Date", but I'd take a B Barrel...if you mean "Late Date" as in 1968 1967 marked barrel, I'd take these - I own one, it's more accurate than I am :P

I've read online that the "Late Date" or "No Maker" M39s were erroneously named "Sneaks" before, so I was trying to be correct in terminology, but you're correct in them being the 1968 or later marked barrels.

Thanks all for your opinions... I completely understand about the bore condition but not being able to check them out, I could only go by the seller's description, so I was just wondering which one you guys would pick if all the ones I listed have "new bores" as described by the seller...

I do tend to sway towards the B barrel and the "Late Date/No Maker" versions though... I do like me a nice wood stock... :)

Flyin Brian
02-21-2013, 6:39 PM
No question in my mind, I would pick the late-date. My reasoning is... if your first priority is accuracy, not collectibility, then I would rather have a rifle that was NOT built in a hurry out of raw materials that are in short supply. The '67 to '70 M39s were purposefully built for marksmanship at a time when semi-auto rifles had already replaced bolt guns as the standard issue to troops.

sakosf
02-21-2013, 6:58 PM
I suggest you read the thread on the link below. Has some good info. I prefer WW2 stocked SAKO M39s myself in the best possible condition.

http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?304198-Finnish-gun-writer-P-T-Kekkonen%E2%80%99s-comments-on-quot-Finn-No-Name-Sneak-quot-M39-rifles

I am expecting to receive this rifle next week

kouye
02-21-2013, 8:49 PM
I have a '44 Sako, '42 Sky, '42 B, and '68 Unissued

I'd have to scope them to be sure, but with my shooting at 50 and 100 yards with 182gr Russian Match (not Extra Match) ammo. I don't see much difference at all. The Sky is maybe a little more consistent. BTW - I shot them all the same day, same ammo.

All of the barrels are extremely nice and they all shoot rings around any other of my Finn or Russian 91/30's and M44's.

If you're buying from Pat Burns, they are all great. Three of mine (all but the Sako) are from her.

Rickrock1
02-21-2013, 9:29 PM
I have a 1941 M39 with a D" stamp barrel. And by far this is my favorite MS rifle that I love to shoot. 3-400 yards iron sights 12" plates all day long.

CDFingers
02-22-2013, 7:01 AM
The "late date" m39's will increase in value quicker than the others because fewer of them were made. Perhaps B barrels will be next most valuable.

Bore condition will determine whether it's a shooter.

The hardest thing is when you own more than one m39 and you have to decide which to take to the range.

CDFingers

kouye
02-22-2013, 7:31 AM
The hardest thing is when you own more than one m39 and you have to decide which to take to the range.

CDFingers

^^^ THIS!

Or which 2 to take to the range...

G-Man WC
02-22-2013, 7:54 AM
I suggest you read the thread on the link below. Has some good info. I prefer WW2 stocked SAKO M39s myself in the best possible condition.

http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?304198-Finnish-gun-writer-P-T-Kekkonen%E2%80%99s-comments-on-quot-Finn-No-Name-Sneak-quot-M39-rifles

I am expecting to receive this rifle next week

Thanks, Intresting article.
I've got a matching 43 SAKO that's a tack driver.
With a Finn Mosin's you just never know what your going to get until
you test drive it. Trial and error with several different ammo selections and reloading should make you a happy camper with any M39 unless it's shot out.
How many licks does it take to get to the center of a Finn? 3
-g

sakosf
02-22-2013, 8:25 AM
A fellow who posts on the same forum, Jarkko Vihavainen (posting name JTV), is very knowledgeable on M39s and other Finnish weapons.

http://www.mosinnagant.net/finland/thecivilguardoffinland.asp

DennisCA
02-22-2013, 11:05 AM
I have a 41' M39 and love it!
All things equal (bore/gun condition/ect) get a B-barrel.

pklin1297
02-22-2013, 12:32 PM
Okay... Based on what everyone is suggesting, what I should do is actually get one of each... :D

I think I'm okay with that... :D But I will focus on the Late Date/No Maker and B Barrels first...

Mustang
02-22-2013, 12:36 PM
Okay... Based on what everyone is suggesting, what I should do is actually get one of each... :D

I think I'm okay with that... :D But I will focus on the Late Date/No Maker and B Barrels first...

I don't think you can go wrong with that plan

Howie44
02-22-2013, 2:18 PM
+1000 on 1 of each!

kouye
02-22-2013, 2:25 PM
Okay... Based on what everyone is suggesting, what I should do is actually get one of each... :D


Well...you save on shipping if you buy more than one at a time...

DennisCA
02-22-2013, 2:33 PM
Okay... Based on what everyone is suggesting, what I should do is actually get one of each... :D

I think I'm okay with that... :D But I will focus on the Late Date/No Maker and B Barrels first...

Sounds like a plan Stan!
:oji:

Marcus von W.
02-22-2013, 6:28 PM
All things being equal, my first preference would be a SAKO SK.Y - with 10,500 rifles produced during the wartime period, these are one of the less common M39 variations.

Early WW2 guns in a correct WW2 stock will always have more historical appeal than post-war ones....it's kind of like Soviet M44's - the post ones were produced in fewer numbers, but the WW2 production ones are more desirable.

Antique pre-1899 receivers also add value and interest.

sakosf
02-22-2013, 7:40 PM
All things being equal, my first preference would be a SAKO SKY.

Early WW2 guns in a correct WW2 stock will always have more historical appeal than post-war ones....it's kind of like Soviet M44's - the post ones were produced in fewer numbers, but the WW2 production ones are more desirable.

Antique pre-1899 receivers also add value and interest.

My understanding is the SKY (SAKO mfg) are the most desirable to collectors in Finland

Mustang
02-22-2013, 7:45 PM
My understanding is the SKY (SAKO mfg) are the most desirable to collectors in Finland


I've got one of those...

http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s194/Calfed/skym39.jpg

pklin1297
02-22-2013, 8:37 PM
That SKY is in great condition...

Mustang
02-22-2013, 8:43 PM
Thanks, the stock is in pretty good condition also

http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s194/Calfed/skym39-6.jpg
http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s194/Calfed/skym39-3.jpg
http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s194/Calfed/skym39-5.jpg

pklin1297
02-23-2013, 9:00 AM
Very nice.

sakosf
02-23-2013, 12:39 PM
OP, keep in mind some M39s can be a bit finicky about what ammo they will shoot well. Most seem to do well with heavier bullets, but there are exceptions. I had a 1942 SAKO with a excellent bore that gave mediocre accuracy, by M39 standards, with 3 different heavy ball surplus ammo loads (Hungarian, Yugo & Bulgarian) & with Barnual 203gr soft points. Finally I tried some Hungarian 147gr light ball and my groups were 1/2 the size of the 4 other loads I tried

pklin1297
02-23-2013, 7:25 PM
Just put in an order with Pat Burns for a "B" barrel with new bore, hopefully she won't email me in 5 minutes just to let me know it has already been spoken for which has happened a lot recently. I was all set on ordering an Unissued "no maker/Late Date" today only to get her email saying it was already taken... Let's see if my luck is better with this one. I'll post pictures once it has been confirmed to be mine. Wish me luck... :)

P.S. Just saw that the rifle is listed as "SOLD" after I put the order in so I hope that I was the lucky owner; regardless, here are some pics of the rifle...

http://i429.photobucket.com/albums/qq11/iepete/Finn%20M39/3658x-3_zps39a0bb84.jpg


http://i429.photobucket.com/albums/qq11/iepete/Finn%20M39/3658x-1_zps46cf60ed.jpg


http://i429.photobucket.com/albums/qq11/iepete/Finn%20M39/3658x-2_zpsa77b3e0b.jpg

Mustang
02-23-2013, 8:34 PM
I think you will be happy with it

sakosf
02-24-2013, 11:33 AM
I think you will be happy with your M39. I suggest buying a small amount of several different types of ammo to find out what shoots best in your M39. Also, your M39 will likely shoot high @ 100 yds, because of the way the Finns sighted them in. They sighted them in using the 6 o'clock hold on a target with a large bull @ 150 meters. The 1967 - 1970 dated rifles were sighted in using the center hold on the target bull, so they usually shoot closer to the point of aim @ 100 yds . If you shop around online, you can find higher front sight blades for your M39 & shims to use on the rear sight. (see photo). A front sight 1 mm higher, will lower your point of impact by approx. 6" @ 100 yrds.

pklin1297
02-24-2013, 1:57 PM
Thank you sakosf! So is it do one or the other, or just change the front sight or install the shims?

Also, I'm already setup to reload the 54r, so I'll slug the barrel first before I load. Thanks.

sakosf
02-24-2013, 4:26 PM
Thank you sakosf! So is it do one or the other, or just change the front sight or install the shims?

Also, I'm already setup to reload the 54r, so I'll slug the barrel first before I load. Thanks.

The shims are only good for smaller adjustments in elevation. 0.5mm is about the limit to shim the rear sight blade, with out affecting the sight picture. You can make the shims yourself. I suggest you shoot the rifle first and see where point of impact is.

pklin1297
02-24-2013, 4:55 PM
Will do thanks.

kouye
02-24-2013, 5:11 PM
I'm curious as to how the shims are used on the rear sight. I can't picture where there are 2 holes like the ones in the picture.

sakosf
02-24-2013, 7:16 PM
look at photo of a M39 rear sight that has been flipped over. You remove the two very small screws that attach the rear sight blade to the sight ladder. Place one or more thin shims (don't exceed 0.5mm total thickness) in the place where the sight blade attaches to the sight ladder, then reattach the sight blade to the sight ladder. CAUTION, the screws are small and have a thin screw slots....use correct screwdriver, such as a jewelers screwdriver or a small gunsmith type screwdriver

kouye
02-24-2013, 8:44 PM
Thanks. I saw that this evening when I was swapping out the scope mount for the iron sight.

I ended up replacing the front blades or filing them down to set the elevation for 100 yards.

sakosf
02-24-2013, 9:23 PM
Plkin1297, if remove your barreled action from the stock, you should be able to see on the bottom of the receiver tang, the date of the receiver & the receiver manufacturer. The 1942 date on the barrel shank, is just the date of the barrel. Most likely the receiver dates back to the Tsarist era....although, it could be a 1920s dated or early 1930s. You might get lucky have have a Remington or Westinghouse mfg receiver.
I am expecting this from Pat Burns to arrive on Tuesday

pklin1297
02-25-2013, 2:28 PM
Very nice. Just got Pat's shipment notice on mine, can't wait. :) scheduled for delivery by this Friday.

When I get it I'll check out the receiver. I'm a sucker for a nice wood stock but since this will be shot a lot, I'm just going to clean up the stock then go shooting.

Mustang
02-25-2013, 2:39 PM
Very nice. Just got Pat's shipment notice on mine, can't wait. :) scheduled for delivery by this Friday.

When I get it I'll check out the receiver. I'm a sucker for a nice wood stock but since this will be shot a lot, I'm just going to clean up the stock then go shooting.

Br careful when you take the rifle out of the stock. There may be shims in there for bedding purposes.

A cautionary tale from the time I took a Finnish 91/30 apart...

http://www.surplusrifleforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=182&t=81358&hilit=Finn+91%2F30

kouye
02-25-2013, 2:47 PM
Both my B barrel and unissued came with a TON of shims, 3 at the tang and 4 in the forward action bolt well in each rifle. Removing most of them still allowed the barrel to be floated and I am not sure a Finn armorer would have put so many into these rifles.

Mustang
02-25-2013, 2:54 PM
I shoot my Finn rifles first. If they shoot well, I don't mess with them.

mosinnagantm9130
02-25-2013, 3:44 PM
My only Finn (1939 m28/30) has several shims in the action. Don't mess with the shims until you've shot the rifle, they are there for a reason.

Plkin1297, if remove your barreled action from the stock, you should be able to see on the bottom of the receiver tang, the date of the receiver & the receiver manufacturer. The 1942 date on the barrel shank, is just the date of the barrel. Most likely the receiver dates back to the Tsarist era....although, it could be a 1920s dated or early 1930s. You might get lucky have have a Remington or Westinghouse mfg receiver.


This is true^^

My 28/30 is built off an 1899 Tula receiver.

Fate
02-25-2013, 5:32 PM
Are any of the M39s, straight stocked? Those are my preference ;)

Mustang
02-25-2013, 5:49 PM
Are any of the M39s, straight stocked? Those are my preference ;)

The earliest M39's were straight stocked, but they are not easy to find.

sakosf
02-25-2013, 6:37 PM
As stated above, the early made M39s were straight stocked. I have seen straight stock M39s on Pat Burns list occasionally. They will be priced higher. If you see a straight stock on a later dated M39, it is a replacement stock.
Regarding stock shims, yes you have to be careful not to lose any stock shims when removing the barreled action from the stock. WW2 stocked M39s sometimes have the shims tacked to the stock. Keep in mind when buying a M39 from Pat Burns, that in most cases they have removed the barreled action from the stock to check the receiver tang date......so, it's possible a shim could already be missing when you receive the rifle. A few years ago, I read a posting on another forum stating that a well known collectible firearms dealer had visited Pat Burns with the purpose of buying a number of M39s to sell. This dealer noticed quite a few shims laying on the floor of the storage facility where the M39s were stored. I know the name of the dealer, I prefer not to name the dealer here, because I did hear about this from him directly.

pklin1297
02-25-2013, 8:08 PM
Where can I find more shims, in case I need them, for fine tuning or otherwise? Thanks.

Mustang
02-25-2013, 8:11 PM
They are made out of thin gauge sheet metal or sheet brass. You really can make your own if need be

Flyin Brian
02-25-2013, 8:56 PM
Spent brass shell casings make great shims, just slit from the neck down to the base with a pair of tin snips and flatten the case out, then trim to size.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

Fate
02-25-2013, 9:01 PM
The earliest M39's were straight stocked, but they are not easy to find.

I was asking the OP if any of the ones he was being offered was one of these, not asking noob questions myself. :oji:

pklin1297
02-25-2013, 9:37 PM
Hi Fate,

I was only asking a hypothetical question in my original post; I was not being offered those choices, technically speaking. :)

sakosf
02-26-2013, 2:43 PM
My 1944 SAKO M39 arrived today from Pat Burns. I went home for lunch from work and found the UPS truck in my neighborhood. I did not have much time to examine the rifle at home. I will tonight. The rifle was described as having a excellent condition SAKO WW2 stock, 97% "original bluing" and new bore. I believe the description was accurate. The unblued muzzle crown & front sight adjustment screws are signs the rifle has the original SAKO factory bluing. The bore looks new to my eyes.

pklin1297
02-27-2013, 7:39 AM
I'll be picking mine up from the UPS depot this Saturday since I won't be home to sign for it on Friday, hope it is everything Pat described and more. If it is it'll have an as new post war stock with no plugs, 95% overall bluing condition and new bore. Hope there aren't any serious nick on the crown. Can't wait! The ammo arrivedalready. :D

sakosf
02-27-2013, 7:47 AM
I'll be picking mine up from the UPS depot this Saturday since I won't be home to sign for it on Friday, hope it is everything Pat described and more. If it is it'll have an as new post war stock with no plugs, 95% overall bluing condition and new bore. Hope there aren't any serious nick on the crown. Can't wait! The ammo arrivedalready. :D

The prices have really gone up on the M39s over the years. I know a fellow, who years ago acquired a M39 B in unissued condition (gun looks new) & a 1942, 43, & 44 M39 SKY rifles. The SKY rifles were all in excellent condition with the correct WW2 stocks & excellent bores. All 4 M39s cost him a little less then $1,000 total including shipping. He acquired the M39s a from a collectible firearms dealer by the name of Ciro DeGenerro out of NY State

pklin1297
02-27-2013, 9:12 AM
The prices have really gone up on the M39s over the years. I know a fellow, who years ago acquired a M39 B in unissued condition (gun looks new) & a 1942, 43, & 44 M39 SKY rifles. The SKY rifles were all in excellent condition with the correct WW2 stocks & excellent bores. All 4 M39s cost him a little less then $1,000 total including shipping. He acquired the M39s a from a collectible firearms dealer by the name of Ciro DeGenerro out of NY State

I guess when you're about the only game in town you can call your shots... There is a guy who handpicked a lot his CMP garands and is selling them on gunbroker now at his original purchase price of $600+, and the auction closes around $1600... Demand is there so the supply shall follow and money will be made... I've had my C&R for over 9 years now and could never bring myself to pay a little over $280 for a M39 back then, and now I'm paying the price (literally) for my mistake. :D

I'm planning to get at least one more M39 if my B barrel is everything people say it is, then I'm good. Planning to see what Late Date / No Maker examples Pat will have in the next batch.

Mustang
02-27-2013, 9:24 AM
Good deals are still out there...they are just getting harder and harder to find.

sakosf
02-27-2013, 9:25 AM
I guess when you're about the only game in town you can call your shots... There is a guy who handpicked a lot his CMP garands and is selling them on gunbroker now at his original purchase price of $600+, and the auction closes around $1600... Demand is there so the supply shall follow and money will be made... I've had my C&R for over 9 years now and could never bring myself to pay a little over $280 for a M39 back then, and now I'm paying the price (literally) for my mistake. :D

I'm planning to get at least one more M39 if my B barrel is everything people say it is, then I'm good. Planning to see what Late Date / No Maker examples Pat will have in the next batch.

pklin, Pat still has a fair amount of M39s in inventory. So, you could wait a bit until you see a rifle you really like.....then move fast on buying it

rojocorsa
02-27-2013, 11:53 AM
FWIW, I have a 1941 Valmet that probably has one of those older M91 barrels on it (it has some pitting and isn't pristine), but it shoots surprisingly well. Certainly, it shoots much better than what I expected it would with its older M91 barrel. (Underneath the wood, the shank has an upside down triangle with a T, whatever that means.)

http://img708.imageshack.us/img708/1079/3ng010.jpg

pklin1297
02-27-2013, 12:12 PM
Would Pat search out something for you as kind of like a pre-order, or you just have to wait?

Mustang
02-27-2013, 1:26 PM
FWIW, I have a 1941 Valmet that probably has one of those older M91 barrels on it (it has some pitting and isn't pristine), but it shoots surprisingly well. Certainly, it shoots much better than what I expected it would with its older M91 barrel. (Underneath the wood, the shank has an upside down triangle with a T, whatever that means.)

http://img708.imageshack.us/img708/1079/3ng010.jpg


Upside down triangle with a "T" in it is the Tikka mark.

Usually that mark is on top of the barrel shank, openly visible just in front of the receiver

All of my M91's have the manufacturer marks in this position
http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s194/Calfed/Grandmasbday015-1.jpg

Does your barrel shank have anything stamped on top?

sakosf
02-27-2013, 2:00 PM
A few thousand M39s were made from cut down, M91 Tikka mfg barrels. They usually command higher prices due to low production. Last one I saw offered for sale by Pat Burns was well over $600

Mustang
02-27-2013, 2:53 PM
A few thousand M39s were made from cut down, M91 Tikka mfg barrels. They usually command higher prices due to low production. Last one I saw offered for sale by Pat Burns was well over $600

That's true, but unless I misunderstood, rojocorsa's M39 is a 1941 VKT with the Tikka marking under the wood.

FWIW, I have a 1941 Valmet that probably ... (Underneath the wood, the shank has an upside down triangle with a T, whatever that means.)



The Tikka M39's that I've seen all have the Tikka mark on top of the barrel shank, where it is visible.

kouye
02-27-2013, 3:38 PM
Let me know how many shims you find under the receiver. My B barrel had 4 in the front action bolt well and 3 under the tang and they were all loose (no tack). Same with my unissued 1968.

pklin1297
02-27-2013, 3:45 PM
will do.

sakosf
02-27-2013, 3:45 PM
Would Pat search out something for you as kind of like a pre-order, or you just have to wait?

She is unlikely to search out a gun just you. But, if you email her what you are looking, one or more of the type of M39s that might interest you may show up on her list in the near future. Since from your earlier posting, you stated an interest in buying a 1967 -1970 M39. Just email her that is what you are looking for and inquire if she might be posting some on her list in the near future. All things equal, the 1968 & 1970 dated M39s will likely be offered at a lesser price then the 1967 and for sure the 1969 dated ones

pklin1297
02-27-2013, 4:36 PM
Is there a reason why the 1968 & 1970 ones will be cheaper than those two other years?

Mustang
02-27-2013, 4:39 PM
I think they are more common

rojocorsa
02-27-2013, 5:42 PM
Mustang, the shank markings on my rifle include the Valmet (VKT) stamp, the year 1941, the SA Finnish Mark and the D mark. It's pretty vanilla as far as shanks go.

But it has the Tikkakoski, so I'm sure this made off an M91 bore.

The stock is war time (round splice) but it is in surprisingly good shape. I like this rifle; too bad I don't shoot it enough.

sakosf
02-27-2013, 6:24 PM
plikin, I hope to take the M39 I received from Pat Burns this week to the range sometime in March

pklin1297
02-27-2013, 7:59 PM
Sakosf, did you receive the sling from Pat, or did you have that already? Those are some beautiful flames on that wood. I hope rifle shoots as well as it looks. :)

pklin1297
02-27-2013, 8:00 PM
By the way, I'm hijacking my own thread here, but do you guys reload for your m39s? What's your "recipe"?

Mustang
02-27-2013, 9:15 PM
By the way, I'm hijacking my own thread here, but do you guys reload for your m39s? What's your "recipe"?

I've found 44.5 grains of 4064 with a Hornady .3105 174 grain bullet to be a good accurate load.

Mustang
02-27-2013, 9:18 PM
Mustang, the shank markings on my rifle include the Valmet (VKT) stamp, the year 1941, the SA Finnish Mark and the D mark. It's pretty vanilla as far as shanks go.

But it has the Tikkakoski, so I'm sure this made off an M91 bore.

The stock is war time (round splice) but it is in surprisingly good shape. I like this rifle; too bad I don't shoot it enough.

It sounds like some of the Tikka M91 barrels might have gotten to VKT. Was the Tikka mark on the barrel shank, on the bottom, under the wood?

sakosf
02-27-2013, 9:21 PM
Sakosf, did you receive the sling from Pat, or did you have that already? Those are some beautiful flames on that wood. I hope rifle shoots as well as it looks. :)

Yes, Pat burns included a sling with the rifle

Pthfndr
02-27-2013, 10:06 PM
I've found 44.5 grains of 4064 with a Hornady .3105 174 grain bullet to be a good accurate load.

48gr works pretty good too ;)

pklin1297
02-27-2013, 11:12 PM
Thanks all... I guess they'll be much like the 91/30s where the bore slugs larger than their caliber suggests.

rojocorsa
02-27-2013, 11:16 PM
It sounds like some of the Tikka M91 barrels might have gotten to VKT. Was the Tikka mark on the barrel shank, on the bottom, under the wood?

Yeah, IIRC it's underneath opposite from the Valmet markings.

My understanding is that they put many early Ukko Pekkas at AVO-3 with old M-91 barrels that were cut down.

I love this thing.

sakosf
02-28-2013, 8:03 AM
Thanks all... I guess they'll be much like the 91/30s where the bore slugs larger than their caliber suggests.

The B barrels are supposedly .3095", same as the Tikka M91 barrels.

http://7.62x54r.net/MosinID/MosinSpec.htm

There is some Russian target grade ammunition on the market now. There is a least on vendor selling it by the box. I have read a couple of range reports on this ammo @ another forum. Both reports were very positive.

http://www.grafs.com/uploads/product-picture/preview/25120.jpg

http://img843.imageshack.us/img843/4199/p1220295a60.jpg

CDFingers
03-01-2013, 6:46 AM
sakosf, that's a real nice stock on that one.

CDFingers