PDA

View Full Version : Could use help in SF area...


M. Sage
09-30-2007, 2:07 PM
With the open-carry walks idea:

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=70071&highlight=open+carry+demonstration

I'd like to get some of these going, and have even begun doing some of the leg-work to get the ball rolling in SF itself (was hoping someone else would step up, but nobody did, so....). I've even got locations scoped out. :D

I contacted Ohio CCW about this, too.

But I need local help, and we'll definitely need LOTS of locals (and not-so-locals, too) to show up if and when this goes on.

I'm also thinking of other Bay Area locations that would draw attention.

Shoot me an email (immikeurnot+calguns[at]gmail.com) if you can help me out. Some meetings/gtgs on this would be good.

thedrickel
09-30-2007, 2:11 PM
I'm in, just tell me when and where. I've never been arrested before, I'm looking forward to it. :)

AJAX22
09-30-2007, 2:20 PM
I've got a miniDV camera and a motorcycle and can zip up there to film the event if you'd like

ivanimal
09-30-2007, 3:01 PM
Im in.

Salty
09-30-2007, 3:02 PM
Cosidering what the cops let people get away with on those mass bike rides in SF, I'd sure hope that they wouldn't give gun owners any crap for having a march. Although I wouldn't be suprized if they did.

Either way, I can't think of a better city in California to have a march like this.

M. Sage
09-30-2007, 3:44 PM
Oh, yeah. Cameras are going to have to be present. I can totally imagine them letting Critical Mess do whatever they want, but decide to "do something" about gun-owners.

VegasND
09-30-2007, 3:48 PM
I hope you can get this organized and all goes well. I've not been any closer to you than I-5 in 15 or so years, but if I'm within a reasonable distance when you pull this off I'll try to join you.

I'll assume all (even those from other states) would be welcome?

FreedomIsNotFree
09-30-2007, 5:31 PM
Things you will want to research or look in to...

City/County ordinances against open carry

Will permits be required? How many people together does it take to be considered a march? Are there other legal requirements if that is the case?

Do you plan to give notice to local PD?

Do you plan on contacting the media?

I'm sure there are many more that need to be addressed before this is attempted. I will add others as they come to mind....

I'm in SJ so depending on what my family has going on that particular day...I may be able to attend.

By the way....those that choose to take this course of action should bring a firearm they are willing to lose for a period of time...who knows how they will react.

M. Sage
09-30-2007, 5:48 PM
Things you will want to research or look in to...

City/County ordinances against open carry

Will permits be required? How many people together does it take to be considered a march? Are there other legal requirements if that is the case?

Do you plan to give notice to local PD?

Do you plan on contacting the media?

I'm sure there are many more that need to be addressed before this is attempted. I will add others as they come to mind....

I'm in SJ so depending on what my family has going on that particular day...I may be able to attend.

By the way....those that choose to take this course of action should bring a firearm they are willing to lose for a period of time...who knows how they will react.

1: On it - there are none.

2: Needs more research, but generally in SF, it doesn't seem to be the case.

3: Probably, but it depends. Some of the location ideas I've had local PD will almost certainly block with the reasons given being pure BS and lies. Gonna have to play that by ear, I think.

4: Definitely. IMO, that's the whole point.

5: That's one of the reasons I threw this out, and sent an email to Ohio CCW.

On the seized firearm thing: It'd be best if we could carry, but I realize that not everybody has a handgun or wants to risk their baby. That's fine, carry an empty holster (I have a couple I could loan,) carry a holstered toy, or even a training gun in a holster.

@VegasND: Anybody who's willing to show up and help show us in a good and positive light is more than welcome.

This is probably at least a few months off, by the time I get all my ducks in a row (got a camping vacation coming up soon, gonna eat my time a bit), it's going to be raining almost non-stop here. This will probably be a spring-time thing, which will hopefully coincide with the outcome of Parker.

CitaDeL
09-30-2007, 7:17 PM
On the seized firearm thing: It'd be best if we could carry, but I realize that not everybody has a handgun or wants to risk their baby. That's fine, carry an empty holster (I have a couple I could loan,) carry a holstered toy, or even a training gun in a holster.

Actually- those participating would have to carry an unloaded genuine firearm or an empty holster. Ironically, exhibiting an 'imitation firearm' is illegal (PC 12556- And comes with a $100 fine.)

I am also on board with participating, coordinating, or organizing.

thedrickel
09-30-2007, 7:27 PM
I will probably carry a CZ-52 and can lend one to somebody that doesn't want to lose an expensive handgun. But you get arrested, you bought it :P

colossians323
09-30-2007, 7:39 PM
I'm in, and will definitely have wife there with video camera.

M. Sage
09-30-2007, 9:51 PM
Actually- those participating would have to carry an unloaded genuine firearm or an empty holster. Ironically, exhibiting an 'imitation firearm' is illegal (PC 12556- And comes with a $100 fine.)

I am also on board with participating, coordinating, or organizing.

Good catch!

Re: Loaning handguns. Might not be the best of ideas. At the very least, the person you loan to is going to need a HSC. Probably something we'll try to avoid, but more research is definitely a good idea.

ZapThyCat
09-30-2007, 10:22 PM
I'd like to get involved, but I have a few questions...

Is this perfectly legal?
What is our point we are trying to get across?
If it's perfectly legal, why do we have to worry about an arrest and getting our gun taken away?

Just curious....

CCWFacts
10-01-2007, 4:50 AM
You need to have a designated media contract person. Everyone there should tell all the reporters who ask question, "talk to so-and-so, he's our designated media person".

The reason for this is that, as we know, the media are brilliant at making gun owners look like gun nuts by asking just the right person just the right question and editing it just the right way. Hell, Michael Moore did a whole movie that way. So have a designated media person, someone who can sound reasonable, and clearly articulate what this whole thing is about, and why this whole thing is a reasonable thing to do.

CitaDeL
10-01-2007, 5:50 AM
I'd like to get involved, but I have a few questions...

Is this perfectly legal?
What is our point we are trying to get across?
If it's perfectly legal, why do we have to worry about an arrest and getting our gun taken away?

Just curious....

What is the point? There are actually two- 1) The demystification of gun ownership in California. Californians and observers nationwide believe that there is no point in owning and carrying arms because the law is so restrictive here. One purpose of a 'Defense Walk' is to show that there is no need for gun owners to be 'closeted', that we have the right, and we arent going anywhere. 2) Is the advancement of issuance of licenses to carry- If we can create a trend where more an more people choose to open carry where ever it is still legal, its possible that enough political pressure can be brought to bear on issuing authorities to loosen their illegal "NO ISSUE" policies.

Because issuing authorities are willing to establish illegal policies, it is easy to imagine their departments would resort to illegal search and seizure to inhibit such a demonstration.

Despite all my assurances that in most cases unloaded and exposed carry of a sidearm in a belt holster is completely legal, I cannot assure you that police wont act in an illegal way.

This is the straight dope for the State of California for those who want to check for themselves. All the usual disclaimers apply.

Carry of an unloaded and exposed handgun is lawful without a license or permit anywhere except:

Where someone would reasonably know they were within 1000 feet of a school. (626.9)

In any State or local public building or at any meeting required to be open to the public (171b)

A State park (CCR Title 14, Div.3, chap. 1, s 4313 (a)) or National Park (36 C.F.R. 2.4(a))

Carry of a loaded and exposed handgun is lawful without a license or permit anywhere except:

In any public place or public street in an incorporated city (ie: inside city limits) or in any public place or on any public street in a prohibited area of unincorporated territory. (PC12031)

Where someone would reasonably know they were within 1000 feet of a school. (626.9)

In any State or local public building or at any meeting required to be open to the public (171b)

A State (CCR Title 14, Div.3, chap. 1, s 4313 (a)) or National Park (36 C.F.R. 2.4(a))

On a public road or highway. (374c, 12031 qualifies as ‘prohibited area’)

Any other area where local ordinance prohibits discharge of firearms

It is NOT lawful to conceal a pistol or handgun without a license. (PC12025)

johnny_22
10-01-2007, 7:37 AM
The march could be from meeting point/parking lot down to Target Masters, Reeds, or Jackson Arms. There would be a purpose in the trip and harder to prove inciting fear.

CA_Libertarian
10-01-2007, 9:35 AM
I openly carry at least once a week, and often post my observations on the OpenCarry.com forum. I would love to be involved in something like this. However, my truck just broke down on me, so it's gonna be tough to get there.

If anybody would be passing through the Hwy-99 Turlock/Modesto area I would be willing to buy gas (or ammo) in exchange for a ride.


Re: Loaning handguns. Might not be the best of ideas. At the very least, the person you loan to is going to need a HSC. Probably something we'll try to avoid, but more research is definitely a good idea.

Why would the person need an HSC?

Liberty1
10-01-2007, 10:07 AM
Look into hiring Chuck form TMLLP for the march to be at the event (wonder if he'd do it for free?) and raise money here for his expenses.

This would :

*provide us with a well versed legal and professional media contact
*encourage participation as he is well respected in the NRA and gunowners crowd and his acting in an official capacity would assure marchers their actions were legal
*make him an expert witness if SF should act unlawfully

Also, the SF Police Captain and former Marine who was upset over the Marines being disallowed participation in filming a commercial is in charge of providing traffic control details for "marches" and may be a good American to interface with.

A code of conduct should be published and instructions as to how to transport firearms, both pistol and longarm.

Have someone monitor SF's supervisors legislative activity from now till then expecting this to be used as an excuse to ban open carry in public before it can be pulled off. And watch the thread count on this topic skyrocket as government reads it.

Oh, and I'm in.

scottj
10-01-2007, 12:16 PM
Ok, I'll ask a stupid question. Since it's called the City and County of San Francisco, doesn't that mean there aren't any unincorporated areas?

Scott

CitaDeL
10-01-2007, 12:32 PM
Ok, I'll ask a stupid question. Since it's called the City and County of San Francisco, doesn't that mean there aren't any unincorporated areas?

Scott

Probably. Assuming there were unicorporated areas in the city and county of San Fransicko, even those areas that were unincorporated would be off limits to loaded and exposed carry if they were surrounded by incorporated territory.

So in order to be lawful, the defense walk would be with unloaded weapons as defined by PC12031.

MudCamper
10-01-2007, 2:56 PM
Ok, I'll ask a stupid question. Since it's called the City and County of San Francisco, doesn't that mean there aren't any unincorporated areas?

This is relevant to 12031 only, not 12025. What does this mean? You can carry, but not loaded. Start by reading my flyer (http://www.paul.net/guns/CaliforniaOpenCarry.pdf).

I will come to the event and walk. I would carry only an empty holster and empty mags, even though I know it's legal to carry. I don't need the legal/financial trouble from an ignorant city/LEO/DA.

I can also bring a pile of these flyers (http://www.paul.net/guns/CaliforniaOpenCarry.pdf) or something similar to hand out.

It is important to have a message (or two), that is simple and easy to understand. My suggestions are:

1) open carry is legal, and normal citizens do it, and
2) if you don't like our open carry, then reform the CCW process

moulton
10-01-2007, 3:04 PM
im in, tell me when and where;)

MudCamper
10-01-2007, 3:06 PM
Here is a searchable list of SF Municipal Codes:

http://www.municode.com/Resources/gateway.asp?sid=5&browseAllCodes=San%20Francisco

I could only find shooting restrictions, which trigger 12031(f). No possession or carry restrictions.

Subvertz
10-01-2007, 3:13 PM
Will there be a way for those of us who can't make it to donate $ ?

CCWFacts
10-01-2007, 4:19 PM
Probably. Assuming there were unicorporated areas in the city and county of San Fransicko, even those areas that were unincorporated would be off limits to loaded and exposed carry if they were surrounded by incorporated territory.

I'm quite certain that there are no unincorporated areas.

The City and County of San Francisco is a consolidated city-county, a status it has had since 1856. It is the only such consolidation in California. The mayor is also the county executive and the county board of supervisors acts as the city council.

Btw, having an attorney be there as an attorney and as a media spokesman is a good idea. That's the way to go. The media just loves events like this, and gun shows, and whatever because they know they are able to get some naive person to say something totally crazy, which makes an entertaining story for them. We don't need that.

M. Sage
10-01-2007, 5:04 PM
Look into hiring Chuck form TMLLP for the march to be at the event (wonder if he'd do it for free?) and raise money here for his expenses.

This would :

*provide us with a well versed legal and professional media contact
*encourage participation as he is well respected in the NRA and gunowners crowd and his acting in an official capacity would assure marchers their actions were legal
*make him an expert witness if SF should act unlawfully

Also, the SF Police Captain and former Marine who was upset over the Marines being disallowed participation in filming a commercial is in charge of providing traffic control details for "marches" and may be a good American to interface with.

A code of conduct should be published and instructions as to how to transport firearms, both pistol and longarm.

Have someone monitor SF's supervisors legislative activity from now till then expecting this to be used as an excuse to ban open carry in public before it can be pulled off. And watch the thread count on this topic skyrocket as government reads it.

Oh, and I'm in.

Great ponits.

Code of conduct: Heck yes. That's definitely something we'll be discussing. We'll also want to look at how we're dressed, for another thing. More to come on this stuff. Like I said, I'm still in the early stages.

Monitoring the Board of Supes: again, heck yes. I can see them trying it, but now that they know we'll be watching, it would be pretty bone-headed of them to try something, since their idea would get smashed on 1A grounds. :43:

Why would the person need an HSC?

I suppose they wouldn't technically.. but it'd be a good idea to do, along with having a signed and possibly notarized letter stating that the pistol was freely and legally loaned. I wouldn't want someone getting locked up for possession of a "stolen" firearm or any other BS charge they could throw at you (like borrowing without an HSC):

Is a Handgun Safety Certificate (HSC) required when a handgun is being loaned?

It depends on the specific circumstances. Generally, a person being loaned a handgun must have a current Handgun Safety Certificate (HSC). However, an HSC is not required when the loan does not exceed three days in duration and the person loaning the handgun is at all times within the presence of the person being loaned the handgun.

Just trying to make sure we've got all the bases covered. I didn't know about the 3-days thing, and "within the presence", don't want someone getting separated from their buddy, do we?

If it's perfectly legal, why do we have to worry about an arrest and getting our gun taken away?

"Hi, there obviously anti-gun government. We're here with our unloaded, openly-carried firearms to challenge your authority, expose the BS in your anti-gun agenda and and basically show how much we think you suck. It's perfectly legal and everything (just read our fliers that expose the rest of your lies), although you really don't like it..."

Think they might have a small problem with that and look for a way to shut us up?

Also, I agree with you guys saying it'd be a good idea to have a designated spokesperson. I definitely am not the man for that job, since the blue of my collar really sets off the red on my neck. :p I'm a tad too close to the stereotype. Perhaps we could get some help from our friends at the NRA? :D I know they have some very well-spoken individuals they might be able to lend us.

Anyway, I'm glad so many people seem exited about this. We'll definitely need more, but I think we'll get there.

Stormfeather
10-01-2007, 6:36 PM
Well guys, you can count me in as far as logistics, Tell me what you need help with and I will be there! As far as to what gun we should carry, If there is a chance of it getting taken, I say we all go out and do a group buy on a bunch of Hi-Points. Doesnt cost much, its a legal gun. and it wont hurt too much if it is taken. That and the amount of grief the city will have to go thru for a bunch of $100 guns that they confiscated would be totally fitting! Thousands of man hours and billable hours resorting in a tremendous financial output on the city's part. Might help the cause! Anyways, count me in!
I also agree on the designated spokesperson as well. I know of several attractive ladies that are very pro-2a and would love the chance to be a spokeperson for something like this!

FreshTapCoke
10-01-2007, 7:16 PM
If this can be setup for a Saturday, I can make the trip up from Southern California.

1911_sfca
10-01-2007, 10:35 PM
Bring lawyers. Lots of lawyers. And lots of video cameras (and the journalists to run them) too.

Sal
10-01-2007, 10:59 PM
I'd be in, chances are i'm only gonna be there with a cheaper longarm, mabye a mossberg 500 or somthing to that extent.

Saturday is probably the best day for most of us to go get it done, but i'd be willing to take off school or work to help this out.

Salty
10-02-2007, 12:33 AM
The more people with long guns the better in my opinion. A long gun can be seen from hundreds of yards away, while a pistol holster might be missed. I think long guns demand a bit more respect than handguns as well.

Imagine 100 people with holstered pistols marching towards you, now imagine 100 people with both hands on a long gun. Which would make you turn around and run quicker?

Just a thought..

I realize the march is about handgun carry. But I think long guns would add to our presence.

Sal
10-02-2007, 12:44 AM
i'd carry a pistol if i had any that didnt have some sort of sentimental value, but since they all were given to me by my dad and grandfather I dont want to lose any of those just yet.

Racefiend
10-02-2007, 6:24 AM
I would definitely participate.

I have to disagree in terms of carrying long guns. Handguns in holsters still look relatively tame compared to long guns in your hands. You would look like too much of a looney toon to most anti's, and that's an image we would not want to portray.

CitaDeL
10-02-2007, 9:50 AM
In my view, this is about lawful individual defense. One can do that with both handguns and long arms. However, if it is reform of licenses to carry we want, the group should focus on the lawful carry of a concealable firearm (ie; holstered pistols and revolvers.)

I do not think it should be the objective of this event to intimidate or scare anyone- On the contrary- it should be to let the both the general public and the authorties know that there are gunowners in California determined to exert their rights- the right to peacably assemble, the right to free speech, the right for the redress of our grievances, and the right to keep and bear arms...

One of the conduct requirements I believe should be enacted for the event is "No touching or handling of your unloaded, holstered/slung weapon during the defense walk unless it is being inspected by a peace officer." This would include long arms, if they were brought. I dont think I would approve of participants carrying a long arm at low ready, or in any other way that would indicate they were going to immediately use it.

Liberty1
10-02-2007, 11:18 AM
I love it. 35 posts and 1000+ views

We should keep talking about doing this in SF and then show up in Sac or LA. :p

I'm for sidearms and families, lots of families, children, friends, girlfriends, boyfriends, people with disabilities, grandparents, elderly, NRA, GOA, PINKPISTOLS, calguns, opencarry.org, CCW sites, hunter groups, FFLs, NFAers, small business owners who make large unprotected deposits, everybody; lets throw out the welcome mat as wide as possible to pro self-defense anti-crime groups as we can. Call it "reclaim liberty, take back your streets!" or something like that. This may attract neighborhood watch groups etc... put out a call to Police Officer Associations to stand with us (many rank and file officers are pro-citizen carry) and so is the Fraternal Order of Police!

I just read in the CRPA newsletter that CCW reform this year was not possible because there is no political will to discuss it. We'll lets make it news so the discussion can begin. We have reason and the non-violent history of 40 states liberal carry laws on our side.

A place to picnic after would be good. Or if this is a static event just do a BBQ and have speakers; open carry then becomes just a natural extension of the event. This shows individuals coming together to discuss politics and activism and the sidearms are incidental (but visible). Just throwing out ideas. But we know what the media will focus on.

Don't worry about your sidearms. They'll have one hell of a lawsuit if its taken unlawfully and you'll have one hell of a defense fund should that very unlikely event happen.

If this could take place during DC vs Heller arguments it would be a way to send a messages to the SC Justices (who watch the news too) that this is right denied in CA and the citizens want it back!

An event permit would be helpful if only to be able to control our gathering, marching, and speaking area from those who will seek to disrupt the event. Loud speakers with generator power (don't trust the city to allow us to plug in anywhere despite promises or permits to the contrary) will be needed. Expect the antis in force.

Liberty1
10-02-2007, 11:25 AM
One of the conduct requirements I believe should be enacted for the event is "No touching or handling of your unloaded, holstered/slung weapon during the defense walk unless it is being inspected by a peace officer." This would include long arms, if they were brought. I dont think I would approve of participants carrying a long arm at low ready, or in any other way that would indicate they were going to immediately use it.

IF the police want to do this, perhaps arrange a time and place for inspection of arms, but I would stipulate that one should feel free to say that you don't consent to this unconstitutional search, but will comply with CA law as ordered by the inspecting officers. This will give some standing to sue the city over 4th Amendment issues and thereby challenge 12031's constitutionality. This could even become a "son of Heller/Parker" civil case. Thats all SF needs (after being sued over other gun issues) is to be sued over a 4th and 2nd Amend. issue and loose again!

Meeting somewhere, a private property secured and guarded parking lot, and busing in may give many comfort from getting "picked off" while coming and going from the event.

Liberty1
10-02-2007, 12:00 PM
If any fence sitters need motivation have them watch this:

http://www.weaponvideos.org/viewvideo/259/Gun_bans_in_the_UK__NRA_/

moulton
10-02-2007, 1:52 PM
stickey? :chris:

Can'thavenuthingood
10-02-2007, 2:04 PM
Thats an excellent video.
Sent to all in my address book.

Vick

burl broderick
10-02-2007, 5:58 PM
I think there is a nice stretch of about 3 blocks down in
Hunter's Point that isn't within 1000 yards of a school.

We could march there !
Otherwise, it may end up being a pretty circuitous route.

There was an article in SFGate about moving sex offenders
at least 2000 feet away from schools & parks and they showed a map
with circles with that radius. There were so many overlapping circles
it looked more like the surface of the moon than San Francisco.

Found it...
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/object/article?f=/c/a/2007/09/12/BA3QS3J9L.DTL&o=0

M. Sage
10-02-2007, 7:09 PM
Wow. Lots going on in just a few posts. I love it. :D

I think that, for the first time out at least, we should limit ourselves to sidearms. There's a factor of "hey, wait a minute" to people who'll notice, and I kind of like that.

If you don't want to carry, or don't have anything to carry, I came up with a fun idea: carry a holster with some of the pamphlets, or a copy of the Constitution rolled up in it... or a few other things we could think of.

More to come.

ETA: Man, Burl.. that map is totally unreadable...

moulton
10-02-2007, 7:34 PM
dude we would need a gun to walk thru hunterspoint:eek:

thedrickel
10-02-2007, 7:38 PM
Is the 1000ft really required for unloaded open carry?

45DAVID1
10-02-2007, 7:41 PM
If you don't want to possibly lose your expensive toys why not go out and buy a cheap blackpowder revolver? No one will know the difference besides you. Plus, blackpowder handguns technically aren't guns if I recall correctly.

AJAX22
10-02-2007, 9:54 PM
One way to make this work is to rent out a city park as a campsite.

Campsites are treated the same as your house in terms of what you can legally do in them. It would be like open cary in your living room.

once we are tennants (for a day) we're golden ;)

And city's rent to events all the time.. Look at the hanford renaisance festival... the city hall steps and town square are rented out every year.

Salty
10-02-2007, 11:20 PM
I have to disagree in terms of carrying long guns. Handguns in holsters still look relatively tame compared to long guns in your hands. You would look like too much of a looney toon to most anti's, and that's an image we would not want to portray.

You have a point, it could be too comanding.

pepsi2451
10-02-2007, 11:45 PM
Will there be a way for those of us who can't make it to donate $ ?

You could buy me a gun and I will go in your place.:D

Seriously though this sounds like a great idea. I would definitely be there if I wasn't 500 miles away and broke.:(

I don't know if long guns would be good, this is about CCW reform right?

M. Sage
10-03-2007, 6:12 AM
I don't know if long guns would be good, this is about CCW reform right?

Partly. It should help with general "hey, they're not stupid, fat, inbred hicks" awareness, though.

Liberty1
10-03-2007, 6:22 AM
Is the 1000ft really required for unloaded open carry?

Yes, as 626.9 PC bans all possession outside of locked sidearms in a vehicle.

CCWFacts
10-03-2007, 10:32 AM
I would argue against long guns. Handguns are fundamentally defensive weapons, whereas long guns can be used offensively or defensively. And if this event is about self-defense in public places, handguns are what it's about. Long guns are scarier.

MudCamper
10-03-2007, 11:36 AM
Is the 1000ft really required for unloaded open carry?

Yes. 12025 and 12031 used to allow for reasonable open carry. But now that we have 626.9 open carry is almost impossible in a city. It requires firearms to be locked in a case. It's an evil law, not just because it's range is so huge, but because it uses the emotionally charged and logically flawed "for the children" rational.

daves100
10-03-2007, 11:51 AM
check out ebay and do a group buy on some airsoft glocks or uzi's they look very real.

Liberty1
10-03-2007, 11:59 AM
Actually- those participating would have to carry an unloaded genuine firearm or an empty holster. Ironically, exhibiting an 'imitation firearm' is illegal (PC 12556- And comes with a $100 fine.)

No Fake Guns Allowed. :p:D

Salty
10-03-2007, 5:14 PM
Yes, as 626.9 PC bans all possession outside of locked sidearms in a vehicle.


Esentialy they are worried about you throwing your unloaded gun at a 3ed grader and cracking their head open.
Totally legitimate concern.

CitaDeL
10-04-2007, 5:35 PM
No Fake Guns Allowed. :p:D

You know, it kinda worries me that the suggestion of carrying toy guns has come up more than once. I think this is demonstrative of how fearful even pro-gunners have become in the face of exercizing their rights.

Carrying a toy is NOT an exercize of your natural right to self defense- it is a mockery of it...You may as well carry a plastic banana in your holster.

Open carry of a firearm in the State of California is not illegal provided you adhere to some simple (though ridiculous) restrictions. This isnt something you actually have to wait for a 'Defensive Walk' or other group demonstration to do, though this sort of individual activism does have some risk. If youre so afraid of that risk, that you would resort to carrying a toy gun for fear of what might happen if authorities disapproved of your protest, what then is going to happen if more restrictions put ownership in peril? We are in our hour of need- will we only go half-way?

You have to claim ownership of your rights, not just of the symbolism and not in half measure, in order to truly be free. If you do not seize your inheritance of liberty, it will be stolen, corrupted and perverted.

I feel these pangs of reluctance every time I go out with my sidearm holstered visiably on my hip- so perhaps this makes me something of a hypocrite, but throwing off these feelings to do what is natural and right in the face of tyranical authorities is what makes me free. I only hope that there are enough similarly inclined individuals to instill fear in the hearts of tyrants. Certainly, a toy has no such impact.

M. Sage
10-04-2007, 5:39 PM
That's one of the advantages of doing this as a group. People feel a lot more comfortable in numbers. Plus, this is going to be SF. If there's going to be a "problem" with visible weapons, it would be there.

Here's a thought... Think we could get some numbers around for a trip to the Fleet Week airshow?

Liberty1
10-04-2007, 6:19 PM
That's one of the advantages of doing this as a group. People feel a lot more comfortable in numbers. Plus, this is going to be SF. If there's going to be a "problem" with visible weapons, it would be there.

I expect the SFPD will act responsibly and lawfully. Many rank and file officers are not in favor of the cities draconian stance on lawful private person firearm possession. I would like to see any gathering be a walk on public sidewalks and or also on private land open to the public. A permit would allow a march down the street but I don't want to give the impression that a special event permit is needed to do this activity.

Also it's too easy for a city to enact a park "regulation" at the last moment or hide it in an administrative action which has the force of law and catch us unaware. I'd even be interested in going to a crime area and walking in support of the besieged lawful residents that the government can't protect. It is IMO the poor and elderly with fixed incomes that would benefit the most from crime deterrence resulting from liberalized lawful citizen carry laws.

CA_Libertarian
10-06-2007, 11:39 AM
Esentialy they are worried about you throwing your unloaded gun at a 3ed grader and cracking their head open.
Totally legitimate concern.

If we spare just one child, it's worth it no matter the cost...

mhho
10-06-2007, 1:27 PM
Here is a similar open carry demonstration in NH I found on YouTube.com:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5FWXnK5UyRI

You can also search for similar videos having to do with picnics if you search under "open carry" in YouTube.com.

I wonder if Porc411 will allow cell calls from the SF Open Carry March.

CA_Libertarian
10-08-2007, 1:47 PM
Here is a similar open carry demonstration in NH I found on YouTube.com:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5FWXnK5UyRI

You can also search for similar videos having to do with picnics if you search under "open carry" in YouTube.com.

I wonder if Porc411 will allow cell calls from the SF Open Carry March.

I can't access the video on my office connection, so I'm not sure about the demonstration you linked. However, I'm guessing this is about the 'open carry & litter pickup' events.

Let's find a 'bad' neighborhood to go and clean up while showing the residents there that they still have the right to defend themselves.

CitaDeL
10-08-2007, 9:18 PM
I can't access the video on my office connection, so I'm not sure about the demonstration you linked. However, I'm guessing this is about the 'open carry & litter pickup' events.

Let's find a 'bad' neighborhood to go and clean up while showing the residents there that they still have the right to defend themselves.

So are you saying youd rather go to the Statehouse and clean up the neighborhood?:D I kid.

Looking at the patriotic calendar-

Saturday, December 15th 2007 - Anniversary of the ratification of the Bill of Rights
January is "National Personal Self-Defense Awareness Month".
Saturday, April 19th 2008 - Anniversary of the begining of the Revolutionary War started on Lexington Green
Wednesday, May 28th 2008 - Memorial day- On second thought, that might be inappropriate...unless we have a large contingent of vets.
Saturday, June 14th 2008 - Flag day
Friday, July 4th 2008 - Independence Day

Others have ideas on an event date?

Subvertz
10-09-2007, 5:32 AM
4th of July sounds good. There will already be people lined up for parades, and the police will be busy chasing petty illegal fireworks calls.

rivviepop
12-14-2007, 7:02 PM
OK so what ever happened here? I found this thread by following a link from another thread to a SHTF Cali forum, that lead me to an Open Carry forum, which.... linked back to Calguns! haha. I'm amazed I can open carry, but as pointed out there's nowhere in SF that isn't within 1000ft of a school so I mean... realistically I can't open carry. sheesh. (not that I wanna carry around kids, but come on - there are schools in project housing neighborhoods like Geary east of Fillmore to Divis and so on where many armed muggings occur)

Is someone still working on this idea or did it just sorta peter out? Also as mentioned on one of the other forums, it seems like the "safest" (legally) unloaded open carry would be a revolver with a speedloader on the belt as it cannot be argued the speedloader is part of the weapon (so cannot constitute loaded in any way no matter how you spin it). That sound right to you legal types?

Suvorov
12-14-2007, 9:03 PM
Sounds like a great idea, keep me in the loop!

This needs to be planned out well and we need to get as many folks here as possible. I'm sure that we could get some free publicity from Michael Savage as well as the folks at KSFO. Bring the Pink Pistols out in force as well as others who don't fit the typical "Red State Pro Gun" stereotypical mold.

I like the idea of doing this during the Supreme Court hearings or the 4th of July. As I recall, we have some folks on the forum who know some of the Hollywood types, maybe one of the pro-RKBA guys could show for a little star power. The better this is organized, the more impact it will have. I would be more than happy to try and help providing air fare for some of the SOCAL guys if they were willing to show.

Liberty1
12-14-2007, 10:20 PM
This is one of those topics that one is either all for or all against. It comes down to tactics and personal beliefs. Nothing is going to happen until closer to the Heller hearings IMO. So the debate kind of fell off. I'd expect another round of thoughts and maybe some planning in the new year. Glad to have you aborad.

M. Sage
12-15-2007, 5:33 AM
I'd expect another round of thoughts and maybe some planning in the new year.

Exactly. I'm kind of in holding for a bit, partly because of "winter" and how chilly, windy and rainy (usually, but not right now...?) it gets in the Bay Area.

I'll get more out there when I get it. :D A lot of people seem really psyched about this, which is great.