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View Full Version : Hypothetical question about use of mag release tools


giarcpnw
09-29-2007, 9:31 AM
I'm sure some smart calgunner has asked this or answered it but searching for this answer has alluded me.

With the recent win Gene acquired for us regarding the legality of detachable mags and the DOJs underground regulation, i ask this....

Now, that we can safely use Bullet Button type tools on the lowers, what happens when we drop a mag out using the tool? Meaning, if i'm a range and i use a bullet to release my 10 round clip, is my rifle an "assault weapon" the second that clip falls out? And could LE use that short time the clip is out to enforce the law?

I'm just not clear on that.

Thanks,

C

JawBone
09-29-2007, 9:43 AM
I'm sure some smart calgunner has asked this or answered it but searching for this answer has alluded me.

I think you will find this discussion helpful.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=59977&highlight=%22drop+magazine%22

To quote one of Mr. Hoffman's previous posts:

When using the bullet button the rifle never transitions to AW status as long as you don't remove the BB. When the magazine is out, there is no way to attach a "detachable magazine." As soon as you put a magazine into the rifle, it is retained until you use a bullet or a tool to remove it.

That said, I recommend that you keep a magazine in when not actually replacing a loaded magazine to make explaining the legality of the rifle simple.

-Gene

hoffmang
09-29-2007, 11:10 AM
What I said above :D

A bullet button equipped semiautomatic centerfire rifle is just a rifle - even when the magwell is open and regardless of which features it has. Remember to not use any attachable magazine larger than 10 rounds.

-Gene

Stanze
09-29-2007, 11:25 AM
IMO I think THIS (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=64725&highlight=MBT) qualifies as a tool to the letter of the law, but others have disagreed.

bwiese
09-29-2007, 11:27 AM
Giarcpnw,

Gene did not actually do anything for 'detachable magazines' as you wrote.

Instead the work really involved ensuring that a 'fixed magazine' could not be regarded as detachable even if not permanently attached.

A BB-equipped rifle has a fixed magazine that requires a tool for removal. It is *not* a detachable magazine as per 11 CCR 5469(a) definition [the only one that is applicable].

Don't confuse "removable-with-a-tool magazine" with 'detachable magazine'.

SemiAutoSam
09-29-2007, 11:32 AM
Well this device when used as you have described it IMHO defeats the Bullet Buttons purpose in having to use a tool.

With a magnet attached this Brass colored device would stick to the bullet button ans this again IMO would create a Assault Weapon.

The idea someone had if a lanyard or ring pin device would be much better and a lot more legal that is if it does not stay with the rifle after its used to detach the attachable magazine.




IMO I think THIS (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=64725&highlight=MBT) qualifies as a tool to the letter of the law, but others have disagreed.

Stanze
09-29-2007, 11:40 AM
Well this device when used as you have described it IMHO defeats the Bullet Buttons purpose in having to use a tool.

With a magnet attached this Brass colored device would stick to the bullet button ans this again IMO would create a Assault Weapon.

The idea someone had if a lanyard or ring pin device would be much better and a lot more legal that is if it does not stay with the rifle after its used to detach the attachable magazine.

Not disagreeing with any of that, but this "more" legal business is bullocks IMO. It's either legal to the letter of the law or it isn't. Until, there's a court ruling I'm sticking to my story with the MBT. However, I don't recommend it be used in CA until a test case arises.:D

SemiAutoSam
09-29-2007, 11:49 AM
I formulate my idea like this.

If a cartridge that is used will not stay attached its legal.

If this item you have created works the same way as the cartridge and also does not stay with the rifle after its used to drop the magazine than its also legal if it does stay attached to the rifle then its not.

Take it for what its worth.

As with all free legal advice from a licenced attorney (and there aren't any) its worth what you paid for it.


Not disagreeing with any of that, but this "more" legal business is bullocks IMO. It's either legal to the letter of the law or it isn't. Until, there's a court ruling I'm sticking to my story with the MBT. However, I don't recommend it be used in CA until a test case arises.:D

Stanze
09-29-2007, 12:00 PM
I formulate my idea like this.

If a cartridge that is used will not stay attached its legal.

If this item you have created works the same way as the cartridge and also does not stay with the rifle after its used to drop the magazine than its also legal if it does stay attached to the rifle then its not.

Take it for what its worth.

As with all free legal advice from a licenced attorney (and there aren't any) its worth what you paid for it.

Thanks for your well thought of replies SAS, if you were a judge maybe your opinion(Or mine) would hold legal water. However, I'm basing my observations on law and fact. Nowhere in the law does it say that the tool cannot be magnetic, or does it say that the act of releasing the mag using a tool has to be X amount of time, or tool has to be on your person via lanyard; is it my fault that this metal's naturally occurring magnetic properties insist on sticking to my rifle? Plenty of screwdrivers also tools, have magnetic tips,...what if that screwdriver was the size of a MBT?

Again, I don't recommend for use in CA until a test case say's it's prudent. As long as only 10 round magazines are used, I don't see what the problem is.

Or, a random finger flick spasm on first sight of a approaching LEO or undercover LEO could render your rifle "more" legal as you say and MBT on the ground in 0.1 seconds.:D

want_ar
09-29-2007, 12:23 PM
Do what you feel like depending on your comfort level. If you are aware of the consequences of owning an unregistered assault weapon, or even being charged with one (legal fees, time, hassle, etc.) and are okay with it, go for it. AW possession is not in the same category as "Hey Johnny, that mod you did to your truck is not legal, here's a citation. Go home, fix it and send in the fine with proof from the local LEO that you fixed it, okay ?"

The people who replied in this thread earlier are knowledgable and know most of the issues involved. If it remains attached to your rifle, it can be argued to be a part of the rifle.