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FluorideInMyWater
09-29-2007, 8:17 AM
can anyone tell me what i have to do legally to transport my fire-arm from my home to my local gun-range?

i have a hatchback car, so no physically separate trunk-compartement from the actuall back-seats they share the same common air-space


also, say i want to go to the range after work. is it a legal problem to leave the gun in my car during the workday in a company parking-lot, or a building sponsored parking lot, and then take it to the range?

TIA!!!

SemiAutoSam
09-29-2007, 8:26 AM
Well that would depend on the gun.

you give no indication of what type of gun this is.

Handgun, Assault weapon, Rifle, Shotgun ?

thomasanelson
09-29-2007, 9:12 AM
If you a talking about transporting a handgun in a hatchback..... the gun must be in a locked case and unloaded. That means no ammo in the same locked case as the gun. FYI, a trunk can be considered a "Locked case", but then no ammo can be in the trunk unless one of the two is in a separate "Locked case".

Regarding the parking lot & hangguns: Probably a gray area of the law. Technically you must only travel between Home-work-range-gun store-campsite-etc. with only reasonable stops in between. If you do so, at the very least make sure your gun has a cable lock attached. Just My Two Cents.

If you do a search here you will find the legal statutes.

Librarian
09-29-2007, 12:02 PM
Safest is to keep a handgun in a locked case - empty chamber and either no mag or empty mag in a semi-auto, empty cylinder for a revolver. Ammo in a separate bag is prudent and an obvious way to meet the not-loaded condition, but is not required. I do it, mostly because I take enough guns that my locked box is full and there's no room for any ammo.

The keep-it-at-work thing is iffy. It doesn't seem to meet the 'reasonable stops' language, and with a hatchback I'd have some concern about visibility and risk of theft. And there's that possible 'no guns' rule by your employer, but don't ask directly unless you're certain the answer will be favorable to you - they might create a negative policy where they previously had no policy!

I know it seems stupid to work 40 miles from home and 10 miles from the range, and have to go all the way home and then all the way back, but that seems to be the way the legislature wants it.

I'd like to think that more ranges would help - if only local blissninnies would stay out of the way - but current conditions don't seem to make that a really attractive business.

On the whole, leaving it in your car at work is not something I'd generally recommend.

hoffmang
09-29-2007, 12:05 PM
the gun must be in a locked case and unloaded. That means no ammo in the same locked case as the gun. FYI, a trunk can be considered a "Locked case", but then no ammo can be in the trunk unless one of the two is in a separate "Locked case".


Where in the Penal Code are these restrictions on ammo? The only restriction I'm aware of is that a handgun must be unloaded. Ammo in the same trunk with an unloaded handgun is not a loaded handgun.

-Gene

Liberty1
09-29-2007, 1:18 PM
an unloaded rifle is not a loaded handgun.

-Gene

I think you're on to something there. Better check with TMLLP first though. ;)

http://www.chp.ca.gov/html/answers.html#05

The CHP has the best plain language description of 12031(g) PC (loaded in prohibited area prohibition law) that I've ever read:


"...If you wish to transport a handgun (in) California..., it should be carried unloaded in a locked container. In the absence of a suitable container, you may secure the unloaded handgun in the locked trunk of a passenger car. Ammunition may be kept in the same container or trunk, but the handgun must remain unloaded with no rounds in the cylinder and no loaded magazines in the magazine well."

Three cheers for the CHP! Personally, I've found them to be generally professional and well trained.

Liberty1
09-29-2007, 1:38 PM
That means no ammo in the same locked case as the gun. FYI, a trunk can be considered a "Locked case", but then no ammo can be in the trunk unless one of the two is in a separate "Locked case".

Please site code. The only one I can think of where your info. is applicable is the loaded definition of 12023 PC - armed criminal action and 171 C&D (state capitol area). If he's not engaged in a felony or on certain capitol grounds your info is incorrect IMnsHO.

See PC 12031 g and case law People v Clark. Let me guess which CCW web site your info came from......hmmm......could it be....... :)

Also I've heard some pretty outragous advise given by a gun store locally; The clerk, to an Armenian asking about transport, said, "It's got to be two stages away from firing. If your gun is under the seat, the ammo must be in the trunk, open your door then open your trunk, thats two stages"! I busted out in laughter and left. Maybe he was just trying to get the guy arrested for 12025?

I'm not saying you want to do this but check this out. It has a lot of good info on transporting:

http://www.paul.net/guns/CaliforniaOpenCarry.pdf

M. Sage
09-29-2007, 1:55 PM
If you a talking about transporting a handgun in a hatchback..... the gun must be in a locked case and unloaded. That means no ammo in the same locked case as the gun. FYI, a trunk can be considered a "Locked case", but then no ammo can be in the trunk unless one of the two is in a separate "Locked case".

Err.. I just re-read the relevant section of PC last weekend to be sure that this wasn't the case and it isn't. Nothing in Penal Code about having to store or carry separately. You just can't load it. Loaded magazines in the same section are perfectly Ok.

Also, ammo doesn't need to be in a locked case. You can carry it loose or in speed loaders or magazines.. in your glove box, in your pocket, on the dashboard (good way to lose it out an open window, though)... whatever you feel like as long as it's not in a gun.

12025 = restriction on carrying a concealed weapon. Here's the relevant section to legally transporting a handgun:

12026.1. (a) Section 12025 shall not be construed to prohibit any
citizen of the United States over the age of 18 years who resides or
is temporarily within this state, and who is not within the excepted
classes prescribed by Section 12021 or 12021.1 of this code or
Section 8100 or 8103 of the Welfare and Institutions Code, from
transporting or carrying any pistol, revolver, or other firearm
capable of being concealed upon the person, provided that the
following applies to the firearm:
(1) The firearm is within a motor vehicle and it is locked in the
vehicle's trunk or in a locked container in the vehicle other than
the utility or glove compartment.
(2) The firearm is carried by the person directly to or from any
motor vehicle for any lawful purpose and, while carrying the firearm,
the firearm is contained within a locked container.
(b) The provisions of this section do not prohibit or limit the
otherwise lawful carrying or transportation of any pistol, revolver,
or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person in
accordance with this chapter.
(c) As used in this section, "locked container" means a secure
container which is fully enclosed and locked by a padlock, key lock,
combination lock, or similar locking device.

Long guns don't need to be locked. They must only be unloaded, though the restrictions for registered AWs are similar to the handgun restrictions (locked, etc.)

N6ATF
09-29-2007, 4:22 PM
Maybe he meant if the gun is under the seat (in a locked "safe" with a locked cable tethering it it to the seat mount). There's one on Amazon.

M. Sage
09-29-2007, 4:45 PM
Lol, what? I really don't understand what you just typed.

Quick summary of that overly-long PC entry I posted:

Any firearm you transport must be unloaded. Loaded magazines are fine, as long as they're not in a firearm.

Registered AWs have special transport requirements.

Handguns must be in a locked container excluding the glove box. The trunk, if separate from the passenger compartment (like a coupe or sedan, but not a hatch or SUV), counts as a locked container (no other container required). Ammo may be in the same container, doesn't need to be separate. You can transport a handgun in a locked case, with ammo in the case, inside the passenger compartment of your vehicle. Hell, put it on your lap if you want. I carry mine in a locked case inside a backpack - sometimes on my motorcycle.

Long guns don't require any locking or containers, excluding registered AWs.

Prospector1
09-29-2007, 6:29 PM
I carry mine in a locked case inside a backpack

.
Would it be legal to carry an unloaded handgun in a backpack without a locked case if you could say, put a small combo lock on the zipper compartment where your handgun is located. Or, do you still need a locked case inside the backpack?

hoffmang
09-29-2007, 6:39 PM
If the zipper of the backpack is locked such that it take a key to get to the handgun without ripping the bag, that's good enough.

Some folks I know have locking briefcases with handguns inside and loaded magazines in their pockets.

-Gene

FluorideInMyWater
09-29-2007, 7:08 PM
Well that would depend on the gun.

you give no indication of what type of gun this is.

Handgun, Assault weapon, Rifle, Shotgun ?

sorry, AR-15 and M1 garand

i just have regular rifle bags for them both, but there does appear to be a way to put a lock on the zipper....
there are magazine pouches on the side of the ar-15 bag
on my hatchback, there is a build in cover so it cannot be seen what is stored in the back. it is a "physical" devider, but can be easily breached by hand.

Liberty1
09-29-2007, 7:21 PM
sorry, AR-15 and M1 garand

Is the AR an OLL or CA "AW"?

Letter of the law - Garand / OLL = unloaded non AW/Rifle in the passenger area with loaded mags and garand clips anywhere you want not inserted in the firearm. (If in a School Zone, Federal law requires all firearms to be "in a locked container, or a locked firearms rack that is on a motor vehicle")

Preferred method for most = unloaded rifle in the trunk inside rifle case (Fed school zone still requires locked case) with ammo separate (in or not in mags).


Fed. school zone law: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_sec_18_00000922----000-.html

Title 18,922
(2) (A) It shall be unlawful for any individual knowingly to possess a firearm that has moved in or that otherwise affects interstate or foreign commerce at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is a school zone.
(B) Subparagraph (A) does not apply to the possession of a firearm—
(i) on private property not part of school grounds;
(ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license;
(iii) that is—
(I) not loaded; and
(II) in a locked container, or a locked firearms rack that is on a motor vehicle;
(iv) by an individual for use in a program approved by a school in the school zone;
(v) by an individual in accordance with a contract entered into between a school in the school zone and the individual or an employer of the individual;
(vi) by a law enforcement officer acting in his or her official capacity; or
(vii) that is unloaded and is possessed by an individual while traversing school premises for the purpose of gaining access to public or private lands open to hunting, if the entry on school premises is authorized by school authorities.

M. Sage
09-29-2007, 7:59 PM
Would it be legal to carry an unloaded handgun in a backpack without a locked case if you could say, put a small combo lock on the zipper compartment where your handgun is located. Or, do you still need a locked case inside the backpack?

If the zipper of the backpack is locked such that it take a key to get to the handgun without ripping the bag, that's good enough.

Some folks I know have locking briefcases with handguns inside and loaded magazines in their pockets.

-Gene

Exactly. I don't feel comfy doing that with my pack, since it's got pulls made out of what looks like paracord on the zippers instead of steel tabs. I don't want someone getting inventive and spending a couple hours untying one to prove that it wasn't secure.

I did transport my handgun with a combo lock in backpack-style rifle case, though. That was when I got around to reading 12026.1 thoroughly.

FluorideInMyWater
09-29-2007, 8:22 PM
Is the AR an OLL or CA "AW"?




it is an OLL

M. Sage
09-29-2007, 8:47 PM
Well, if you're transporting rifles.. :D

The only restrictions are the Federal School Zone Thingy (:rolleyes:) and that your rifles need to be unloaded. You could keep 'em in your car 24/7 (not recommended because of theft danger) if you felt like it.

I transport rifles without a case from time to time. Don't have enough cases. I never lock my rifle cases when I transport. Why bother?