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Liberty1
09-27-2007, 3:46 AM
http://www.nraila.org/Legislation/Read.aspx?ID=3242

Wisconsin Circuit Court Sides With Gun Owners! Monday, September 24, 2007 Today, Monday, September 24, the 31st Circuit Court of Milwaukee County ruled that the Concealed Carry Weapons (CCW) statute was unconstitutional as applied to a particular defendant -- in this case, a pizza delivery driver who carried a gun for self-defense on the job, after being robbed repeatedly in a high crime area.

Andres Vegas is a pizza delivery driver and has been robbed and mugged while attempting to deliver a pizza on four different occasions. The first time was in March of 2005. The second time was July 14, 2006, when Vegas was attacked and threatened at gunpoint. Vegas, armed with a firearm, exercised his constitutional right of self-defense and shot one of the assailants. Vegas was not charged with the crime of carrying concealed and was ruled as acting in self defense. Not only was his firearm confiscated at the time of arrest, but it was never returned. He was subsequently told by the prosecuting District Attorney that if he were to use a firearm in self-defense again he would be prosecuted.

On September 13, 2006, an unarmed Vegas -- acting under the orders of the District Attorney to avoid prosecution -- was robbed, beaten, and sprayed with pepper spray by three assailants. Consequently Vegas went out and purchased another firearm. On January 4, 2007, Vegas was again attempting to deliver a pizza when two men approached him and pointed a gun in his face. This time, he responded by again exercising his right to self-defense and shot his assailant in the hip. Vegas then secured his assailant' s firearm along with his, placed them both on the roof of his car, dialed 911, and waited for the police to arrive. The DA determined that he acted in self defense, but he was subsequently charged with CCW for the moments before he was assaulted and defended.

Even though this charge was brought forward by the DA’s office, the court has ruled in favor of Vegas, saying:

“Defendant Vegas has demonstrated the requisite extraordinary circumstances that warrant his concealed weapon…Vegas legally purchased his firearm for the purpose of security and protection. There is a strong inference that Vegas’ concealed firearm has saved his life during these violent assaults…Vegas has a substantial interest in being secure and protecting himself by carrying a concealed weapon.”

“This Court is not convinced that there are any reasonable alternatives that would have secured Vegas’ safety. Vegas' concealed weapon has most likely saved his life on several occasions; this the State cannot ignore. The State has conceded that Vegas did not have an unlawful purpose for concealing a weapon. Given the totality of the circumstances, this Court is satisfied that the Defendant has affirmatively answered the two-prong analysis as outlined in Hamdan and Fisher and thus grants the Defendant’s motion to dismiss.”

This is a giant step forward in the battle for Right-to-Carry in Wisconsin. This court ruling will likely lead to future citizens exercising their right to self-defense by carrying concealed firearms. Unfortunately this will likely lead to subsequent prosecutions, but this circuit court ruling will become a perfect example of law-abiding citizens' need for concealed firearms for protection against crime, especially in high crime areas such as Milwaukee.





http://www.saf.org/viewpr-new.asp?id=242

SAF SAYS MILWAUKEE JUDGE UNDERSTANDS STATE CONSTITUTION BETTER THAN DOYLE
For Immediate Release: 9/25/2007
BELLEVUE, WA – Milwaukee County, WI Circuit Judge Daniel A. Noonan understands the Wisconsin Constitution far better than Gov. Jim Doyle and the Legislature’s Democrat majority, the Second Amendment Foundation said today.


Judge Noonan nullified charges Monday against a Milwaukee pizza delivery man who had been accused of shooting two would-be robbers, ruling that a state law prohibiting concealed carry – at least as it applies to the case against Andres Vegas – is unconstitutional. Article 1, Section 25 of the Wisconsin State Constitution affirms that “The people have the right to keep and bear arms for security, defense, hunting, recreation or any other lawful purpose.”


“Anti-gun Gov. Jim Doyle and his cronies in the Legislature should take a lesson from the Vargas case and stop interfering with the civil rights of their constituents,” said SAF founder Alan Gottlieb. “Twice in the past five years, Doyle has blocked sensible concealed carry legislation. Evidently he would rather see hard-working citizens like Vargas be robbed, and perhaps worse, than have the ability to defend themselves against a criminal element that has been emboldened by Doyle’s disarmament policies.”


Gottlieb said Judge Noonan’s ruling, although it only applies to the Vegas case, should serve as a catalyst for passage of a state concealed carry law. He said the judge clearly recognized the right of a citizen like Mr. Vegas to defend himself, and how the state’s concealed carry prohibition impairs that right and the right to keep and bear arms under the state constitution.


“Wisconsin is an open carry state, as affirmed in the case of State v Hamdan,” Gottlieb noted, “and even Gov. Doyle seemed to recognize this in March 2006 when he told a Lake Delton crowd that ‘If you want to carry a gun in Wisconsin, wear it on your hip.’ Perhaps Wisconsinites ought to take Doyle’s advice. Remember when Ohio citizens did the same thing? The Ohio Legislature passed a concealed carry law in record time, and then at the next election, citizens elected a new governor. Perhaps there’s a lesson in the Ohio experience.

“Bouquets to the judge,” Gottlieb observed, “but brickbats to the governor.”


The Second Amendment Foundation (www.saf.org) is the nations oldest and largest tax-exempt education, research, publishing and legal action group focusing on the Constitutional right and heritage to privately own and possess firearms. Founded in 1974, The Foundation has grown to more than 600,000 members and supporters and conducts many programs designed to better inform the public about the consequences of gun control. SAF has previously funded successful firearms-related suits against the cities of Los Angeles; New Haven, CT; and San Francisco on behalf of American gun owners, a lawsuit against the cities suing gun makers and an amicus brief and fund for the Emerson case holding the Second Amendment as an individual right.

Scarecrow Repair
09-27-2007, 6:57 AM
How about getting Judge Noonan nominated to the Supreme Court? How do we go about expanding it to 10 judges and do it now?

:-) :-) :-)

Johnny Diablo
09-27-2007, 7:20 AM
Thats one dedicated pizza guy to stay at that job! Its like ordering delivery from Jack Bauer Pizza delivery.

The thought came to mind to take a 2nd job delivering ......nah bad idea....

elenius
09-27-2007, 8:33 AM
Thats one dedicated pizza guy to stay at that job! Its like ordering delivery from Jack Bauer Pizza delivery.

The thought came to mind to take a 2nd job delivering ......nah bad idea....

No kidding! His employer should at least pay for his ammo! ;)

simonov
09-27-2007, 10:44 AM
The defendant was black. I wonder if there are grounds for a civil rights suit? Are there white people in Wisconsin with less dangerous jobs who are allowed to CCW?

stag1500
09-27-2007, 11:43 AM
Last I heard, Wisconsin is a shall-NOT-issue state. I don't think any private citizen has a CCW in that state. Of course the politicians do. but then again, they are more equal than others. :rolleyes:

bulgron
09-27-2007, 12:04 PM
Last I heard, Wisconsin is a shall-NOT-issue state. I don't think any private citizen has a CCW in that state. Of course the politicians do. but then again, they are more equal than others. :rolleyes:

Politicians, cops, and retired cops, you mean.

Wisconsin is a governor's election away from shall-issue CCW. I'm quite sure they'll get there soon enough. This case is just going to pave the way.

I still don't understand why Wisconsinites aren't staging open carry walks. There must be some subtlety to their state constitutional protection that I don't understand. Or is it an issue with how the courts have interpreted that right?

CCWFacts
09-27-2007, 12:23 PM
Yes, Wisconsin is one of two states that has no permit system at all. You want to CCW in WI? You can't unless you're a LEO, retired LEO, that kind of thing.

I still don't understand why Wisconsinites aren't staging open carry walks. There must be some subtlety to their state constitutional protection that I don't understand. Or is it an issue with how the courts have interpreted that right?

One factor is that WI has a school zone law, and violating it is a felony. I think it is more strongly-written than CA's school zone law. I think there are some other factors but the guys who are contemplating that are doing some careful planning and consideration before they start.

socalguns
09-27-2007, 5:41 PM
WOW
I'm suprised lawyers aren't talking to him about suing the City/DA for that pepper/beating after his gun was confiscated

radioactivelego
09-27-2007, 6:24 PM
And people say I was stupid for riding dirty when I worked at Domino's...

...tell that to the guy that was scared ****less with the pipe to my head!

CCWFacts
09-27-2007, 7:16 PM
Wisconsin is a governor's election away from shall-issue CCW.

There are no term limits on governor in WI. Doyle could still be governor 30 years from now. He's entrenched.

I realize that several states (including Texas) have had to replace their governors in order to get CCW. But Wisconsin gun owners are not unified and single-issue enough.

Anyway, this is a great court case because, effectively, the court issued this guy a CCW for as long as he's delivering pizzas. That is so cool! And their logic is good, too.

bulgron
09-27-2007, 7:47 PM
There are no term limits on governor in WI. Doyle could still be governor 30 years from now. He's entrenched.

I realize that several states (including Texas) have had to replace their governors in order to get CCW. But Wisconsin gun owners are not unified and single-issue enough.


Well, I grew up in Minnesota, which did somehow manage to get shall issue CCW, even despite the fact that Minnesota has no RKBA provision in it's state constitution. What's the difference? Beats me. I always thought that Wisconsin and Minnesota were close twins, culturally-speaking. Of course, Wisconsinites tend to worship the Packers, which is unforgivable, so maybe that's the difference right there. :p

CCWFacts
09-27-2007, 9:17 PM
What's so cool is that suddenly there is at least one CCW in WI. Surely other people who have similar circumstances to this guy are going to start carrying. They are going to have endless court cases, like, "I'm a jeweler and so I need to be able to carry", etc, based on this case. Well... they can either have endless cases like this or they can start issuing some permits.

We won CCW in most of the country through the normal legislative channels. It looks like the last few victories may be through the judicial system. This case in WI is one of them. Heller may be another. Some of the CCW cases here in CA may be more.

socalguns
09-27-2007, 11:17 PM
maybe they knew about the supreme law :)

bulgron
09-27-2007, 11:24 PM
Actually, there's something even cooler about this. The court ruled that Vegas had a right to carry a concealed weapon, since there was no reasonable alternative to doing so.

Carrying a concealed weapon has now been declared a constitutionally-protected right, at least in Wisconsin, under some extraordinary circumstances.

All along I've been thinking that CCW is probably not a constitutionally-protected activity. But if the logic in this case can be extended and applied liberally to the nation as a whole (relax the extraordinary circumstances provision and replace it with the more general and liberal right to protect your own life), a path might exist for a direct assault on may-issue and no-issue CCW laws.

Food for thought, yes?

CCWFacts
09-27-2007, 11:32 PM
Here's the really important question:

The Brady Campaign gives WI a C+:

http://www.stategunlaws.org/viewstate.php?st=WI

One of the factors is they get an A+ for having no CCW period.

My question: Now that there is one guy with a CCW in WI, is the Brady Campaign going to have to upgrade WI from a C+ to, maybe, a C or a C-?

bulgron
09-28-2007, 12:39 AM
Oh, gee, thanks for that link. Now I feel like I need a shower.

California gets an A- from the Brady campaign? No wonder why I hate this state.

Arizona gets a D. I really have got to move....

CCWFacts
09-28-2007, 1:08 AM
Hmm, I bet the Brady Campaign can disregard this one permit, because, "what happens to Vegas is only relevant to Vegas".

But there will be others I am sure!

Speaking of their state ratings: The whole country would be more in the D and F range if they didn't throw in a lot of meaningless nonsense. Like school zones, which don't apply to people with CCWs, or other really minor issues. If they focused on meaningful legislation they would reveal how badly they are doing.

hitnrun
09-28-2007, 5:03 AM
After reading about what the guy went through, I can't believe the DA wasted taxpayer resources to bring charges on the guy. He should be given a medal, not charged with a crime. After all, that's dedication. "We deliver your pizza...at all costs!":D

bulgron
09-28-2007, 7:21 AM
Speaking of their state ratings: The whole country would be more in the D and F range if they didn't throw in a lot of meaningless nonsense. Like school zones, which don't apply to people with CCWs, or other really minor issues. If they focused on meaningful legislation they would reveal how badly they are doing.

What should be funny is if Heller somehow forces shall issue CCW, ends assault weapon bans, and does other good things for us, then the Brady rating for every state in the country should fall to a C or lower.

Will they actually show that on their website, or will they change the way they grade a state? Hmmm... Time will tell.... :D

bulgron
09-28-2007, 7:23 AM
After reading about what the guy went through, I can't believe the DA wasted taxpayer resources to bring charges on the guy. He should be given a medal, not charged with a crime. After all, that's dedication. "We deliver your pizza...at all costs!":D

The entire case rested on the threat, "If you ever defend your own life again, we're going to throw you in jail!"

Just absolutely mind boggling. One wonders if the average cop in Wisconsin is actually that elitist and unsympathetic, or if this is purely a play coming down from the upper echelons.

CCWFacts
09-28-2007, 9:41 AM
Will they actually show that on their website, or will they change the way they grade a state? Hmmm... Time will tell.... :D

They'll certainly change the way they grade. This whole country would be mostly Ds and Fs if they focused on the important things: shall-issue CCW and no AWBs. Other than that, nonsense like the details of juvenile possession, waiting periods, school zones, one-gun-per-month and the other stuff are just minutiae.