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radioactivelego
09-24-2007, 10:59 PM
I know the M2 is exempt from the 50BMG ban because it's not considered a "firearm" or "rifle" for some reason.

What has the 50BMG specifically banned? Rifles? Call it absolutely positively crazy, but would a 50BMG handgun be exempt from the ban?

Roo
09-24-2007, 11:03 PM
As far as I understand they banned the .50BMG round, not specifically rifles...

vorpar
09-24-2007, 11:04 PM
I believe it's the dimensions of the cartridge that are the basis for the ban.

blkA4alb
09-24-2007, 11:07 PM
Not quite. The law banned the .50BMG in rifles. If the weapon is not a rifle then it can fire the .50BMG.

However, there are other issues regarding a .50BMG pistol such as the AP ammunition then being labeled as AP handgun rounds.

leelaw
09-24-2007, 11:10 PM
As far as I understand they banned the .50BMG round, not specifically rifles...

No, AB50 banned rifles which fire the .50BMG cartridge, as described by specific case, projectile, and overall dimensions.

It failed to address .50BMG non-rifles, and handguns.

artherd
09-24-2007, 11:12 PM
CPC12278. (a) As used in this chapter, a ".50 BMG rifle" means a center fire rifle that can fire a .50 BMG cartridge and is not already an assault weapon pursuant to Section 12276, 12276.1, or 12276.5, or a machinegun, as defined in Section 12200.
(b) As used in this chapter, a ".50 BMG cartridge" means a cartridge that is designed and intended to be fired from a center fire rifle and that meets all of the following criteria:
(1) It has an overall length of 5.54 inches from the base to the tip of the bullet.
(2) The bullet diameter for the cartridge is from .510 to, and including, .511 inch.
(3) The case base diameter for the cartridge is from .800 inch to, and including, .804 inch.
(4) The cartridge case length is 3.91 inches.
(c) A ".50 BMG rifle" does not include any "antique firearm," nor any curio or relic as defined in Section 178.11 of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations.
(d) As used in this section, "antique firearm" means any firearm manufactured prior to January 1, 1899.

Technical Ted
09-24-2007, 11:16 PM
RIFLE - A weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed metallic cartridge to fire only a single projectile through a rifled bore for each single pull of the trigger. 18 USC

Sampachi
09-25-2007, 12:14 AM
The Boyes AT rifle chambered in .50 BMG would be exempt as it falls under C&R rules. I've heard there are a few rechambered Russian AT rifles out there that would qualify the same way.

CSACANNONEER
09-25-2007, 7:20 AM
The Boyes AT rifle chambered in .50 BMG would be exempt as it falls under C&R rules. I've heard there are a few rechambered Russian AT rifles out there that would qualify the same way.

There are also some old VERY LARGE ringed Mauser actions that have been used to build 50s. I'd guess that they are C&Rs too.

radioactivelego
09-25-2007, 9:00 AM
The Boyes AT rifle chambered in .50 BMG would be exempt as it falls under C&R rules. I've heard there are a few rechambered Russian AT rifles out there that would qualify the same way.I thought Boyes was something in .55 and was considered a destructive device?

gazzavc
09-25-2007, 9:03 AM
The Boyes AT rifle is an oddity. Its listed in the C&R list as an NFA weapon by the fact of it being originally chambered in .55 caliber. The fact that it may have been rebarrelled for 50BMG may or may not cause it to fall off of the section IV list. (IE no longer a DD)

I have owned 2 of them over the years, I sold one a while back, but I also took the precaution of registering mine while there was a window of opportunity.

Whether or not you would get anyone to sell one to you in California right now is very up in the air. I have seen them for sale and advertised on various sites, but almost all have a caveat "Not for sale in CA" attached to the ad.

If you wanted to really clarify it, perhaps the BOF would be helpful :rofl:

Gary

XDshooter
09-25-2007, 10:43 AM
(c) A ".50 BMG rifle" does not include any "antique firearm," nor any curio or relic as defined in Section 178.11 of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations.
(d) As used in this section, "antique firearm" means any firearm manufactured prior to January 1, 1899.



Right there Bill.

bwiese
09-25-2007, 10:56 AM
Right there Bill.

OK, you got me! Good catch! (pulled my prior post to not propagate incorrect info)

I brain-farted, because there's no C&R/antique exemption for AWs and 50BMG laws *generally* track AW laws at least as far as penalties and transport matters, etc.

[For example, 1898 Mauser Broomhandles w/detachable mags are AWs, and I believe some folks have been popped for them.]

Sampachi
09-25-2007, 1:27 PM
I thought Boyes was something in .55 and was considered a destructive device?

They were originaly in .55 and therefore a DD, but a large amount of them were imported from Finland and rebarreled to .50BMG. Since the reciever is still over 50 years old, it is still a C&R.

gazzavc
09-25-2007, 3:21 PM
Bill

If I understand the law and your interpretation correctly, then you CAN still transfer and own a Boyes AT rifle in California.

Now how in hell can you convince a dealer of that? Most just say No sales to CA.

Thanks

Gary

bwiese
09-25-2007, 3:29 PM
Bill

If I understand the law and your interpretation correctly, then you CAN still transfer and own a Boyes AT rifle in California.

Now how in hell can you convince a dealer of that? Most just say No sales to CA.

Thanks Gary

Convincing dealers of something takes effort.

Since an original Boyes AT rifle is C&R, it is not subject to CA 50BMG laws.

However, I do have a question for the C&R types - do changes (like conversion from .55 to 50BMG on Finnish ones) after importation to US risk removing C&R status? Was the 50BMG conversion in fact accomplished before or after its reentry to USA, or was the 50BMG conversion done 50 years ago or more?

dustoff31
09-25-2007, 4:06 PM
Convincing dealers of something takes effort.

Since an original Boyes AT rifle is C&R, it is not subject to CA 50BMG laws.

However, I do have a question for the C&R types - do changes (like conversion from .55 to 50BMG on Finnish ones) after importation to US risk removing C&R status? Was the 50BMG conversion in fact accomplished before or after its reentry to USA, or was the 50BMG conversion done 50 years ago or more?


I too seem to recall seeing something that said that changes from original configuration void the C & R status. Been looking through the books trying to find it.

Michael303
09-25-2007, 4:24 PM
The original configuration rule falls under ATF ruling 85-10. Basically, the rifle has to be in it's original military configuration. So stripped receivers and synthetic-stocked Mosins would not qualify as C&R rifles. Now if the Boyes rifle was converted to 50BMG by the Finnish military 50+ years ago, that may be the way we can get some in California. And if that is the case, let me know because I want one :)

dustoff31
09-25-2007, 4:39 PM
Thank you Michael303. That's why I couldn't find it in the reference guide.

virulosity
09-25-2007, 5:14 PM
Is it possible to simply design a rifle around 50bmg cartridges that have been pressed another .010" such that the overall length is now shorter? Then with some dies and a press you can buy and convert your own ammo.

C.G.
09-25-2007, 5:26 PM
Is it possible to simply design a rifle around 50bmg cartridges that have been pressed another .010" such that the overall length is now shorter? Then with some dies and a press you can buy and convert your own ammo.

And you could call it .510 DTC.;)

radioactivelego
09-25-2007, 5:30 PM
So basically I have a blueballs case here...

I can make a rosterless, California-legal single-shot 50BMG pistol. In return I turn all M2 black-tipped projectiles illegal for the rest of the US.

blkA4alb
09-25-2007, 5:47 PM
So basically I have a blueballs case here...

I can make a rosterless, California-legal single-shot 50BMG pistol. In return I turn all M2 black-tipped projectiles illegal for the rest of the US.

Pretty much. Thats how I understand it.

bwiese
09-25-2007, 6:27 PM
I can make a rosterless, California-legal single-shot 50BMG pistol. In return I turn all M2 black-tipped projectiles illegal for the rest of the US.

Um that's the Olympic Arms pistol issue w/7.62x39 steel core.

The real issue, as reported to me by (former?) Calgunner Mike Searson - who was, IIRC, involved at least tangentially with development of Magnum Research's .50AE products - is that BATF standards for rifle bore sizes involve measurement from the lands, while for pistols it's measured from the grooves.

Thus, a .50BMG pistol would have a > 0.50" size measured from grooves and would be considered a DD. (This appears to have triggered a slight redesign of the 50AE cartridge due to this.)

So this is the reason why you can't have a 50BMG pistol (aside from total lack of reality!)...

gazzavc
09-25-2007, 8:03 PM
Bill

In looking at the Boyes rifle the reciever, which IS the firearm for all intents and purposes completly seperates from the barrel (mine was built that way)
so the .50BMG barrel is rendered irrelevant. I could have had another barrel manufactured to .510DTC or even 460 weatherby magnum if I decided to. The reciever is untouched and is still the original part as far as the DOJ see it.

In other words if you can convince a dealer to sell you the Boyes rifle without the barrel, you're home and dry.

Am I correct?

Gary

bwiese
09-25-2007, 8:44 PM
In looking at the Boyes rifle the reciever, which IS the firearm for all intents and purposes completly seperates from the barrel (mine was built that way)
so the .50BMG barrel is rendered irrelevant. I could have had another barrel manufactured to .510DTC or even 460 weatherby magnum if I decided to. The reciever is untouched and is still the original part as far as the DOJ see it.


Sure, you could buy a Boyes receiver legally.

In other words if you can convince a dealer to sell you the Boyes rifle without the barrel, you're home and dry.

Yes, that would be correct.

However, adding a 50BMG barrel to it would make it a 50BMG rifle, the gun appears to lose its C&R/antique exemption due to any changes - so it'd be an illegal 50BMG.

If you put a 510DTC bbl, etc. on that's of course fine. But then it's a non-50BMG like anything else.

If you could find a Boyes OVER 50 YEARS OLD THAT WAS CHAMBERED 50BMG "WAY BACK THEN", then it'd be a 50BMG C&R/antique and thus exempt.

gazzavc
09-25-2007, 9:10 PM
Some of the Inglis mfg. Boyes rifles were given to the USMC raiders, most of them were converted to 50BMG during that period. As I understand it any of the US Property marked boyes rifles were stamped .50 cal so those should still be C&R configured.

I may shoot a letter to the ATF and ask for a definition on where the 50BMG conversion places it in regards to 178.26 as a lot of them were converted when they were brought in to the US way back when in the 50's and 60's
and AFAIK no records are kept exactly when they were converted.

Thanks for your input Bill,

Gary

gazzavc
09-25-2007, 9:12 PM
http://photos.imageevent.com/gazzavc/editingjunk/websize/DSCF2206.JPG

bwiese
09-25-2007, 10:49 PM
Gary,

That's a good idea. You should send a formal letter to main ATF tech branch, not local office. Ed Owen used to be the dude that answered, it's a new guy now.

If C&R status is maintained on some subset of 50BMG converted Boyes rifles, whee!!

You're lucky that you reg'd yours w/DOJ as a 50BMG 'just in case'.

E Pluribus Unum
09-26-2007, 12:16 AM
Very easy exception to the .50 caliber ban.. I have posted it twice in two other threads....


Off List Lower Receiver

Barret .50 caliber upper receiver (or other competitor)

Mount it to a tripod with spade grips...


Easy, non-rifle, .50 caliber, legal.

Sampachi
09-26-2007, 12:53 AM
bwiese
gazzavc
dustoff31
You guys are making it more difficult than it really is.
You need to re-read your C&R laws (and my post). While a caliber change would render a listed C&R null and void, the Boyes has a reciever that is over 50 years old. ALL firearms over 50 years old are C&R, therefore, it does not matter when the reciever was rebarreled. A classic example would be Israeli Mausers that were converted to .308 from 7.92.

Get a copy of your C&R, take it to a Nevada gunshow with the right amount of cash, xerox the California law and highlight the exemption in yellow and then return home happy.

bwiese
09-26-2007, 1:39 AM
You guys are making it more difficult than it really is.

It may be.

You need to re-read your C&R laws (and my post). While a caliber change would render a listed C&R null and void, the Boyes has a reciever that is over 50 years old. ALL firearms over 50 years old are C&R, therefore, it does not matter when the reciever was rebarreled. A classic example would be Israeli Mausers that were converted to .308 from 7.92.

Remember, you're on felony territory.

I am very very concerned that a Boyes could lose C&R status by a modern rebarreling that changed caliber (as opposed to a repair of worn barrel).

Hell, it appears SKSes can lose their C&R status if they get new stocks or various other changes.

Also, the C&R/antique exemption for 50BMG rifles says 'rifle' not 'receiver', and construction of a 50BMG rifle (at least while inside CA) from something else that isn't already one is likely not covered by the exemption.

I'd be far more comfortable - until further research - getting a Boyes that had been 50BMG'd a long time ago (i.e., C&R as a 50BMG).

I'd love to be proved wrong though!

artherd
09-26-2007, 9:53 AM
CA sometimes changes the way they define or at least handle C&Rs, in this case they deffer entirely to the Fed, so it will be the Fed (BATFe) who answers the questions.

I would want an opinion (based on a letter from my attroney to a senior offical at BATFe) before I went forward.

gazzavc
09-26-2007, 12:07 PM
I will let you know when I get an answer from tech branch.

Thanks to all for the input,

Gary

Sampachi
09-26-2007, 1:56 PM
I will let you know when I get an answer from tech branch.

Thanks to all for the input,

Gary

Gary, are you asking CADOJ or BATFE? I'll keep my fingers crossed, as I know they are the final word on what's-what.

gazzavc
09-26-2007, 2:14 PM
ATF tech branch.

I will submit to them in writing and ask for clarification.

Gary

gazzavc
10-04-2007, 7:05 PM
Spoke to Tech branch today. Nice bloke who knew the regs very well.

A caliber change to the boyes rifle does NOT cause it to loose its C&R status.
So for all those wanting a 50BMG rifle in CA , go get 'em.
I am waiting for written clarification as well, but their answer was " As long as it hasn't been sporterized or OUTWARDLY changed , it's still considered a curio and relic".
The bloke said its exactly the same logic as an M1 Garand in caliber .308
instead of 30.06. As long as its still in military configuration its OK.

Now, let the fun begin !!!!!!!

Gary

5968
10-05-2007, 11:47 AM
Another crazy California gun law that is hard to understand. Imagine that...

carsonwales
10-05-2007, 2:40 PM
Spoke to Tech branch today. Nice bloke who knew the regs very well.

A caliber change to the boyes rifle does NOT cause it to loose its C&R status.
So for all those wanting a 50BMG rifle in CA , go get 'em.
I am waiting for written clarification as well, but their answer was " As long as it hasn't been sporterized or OUTWARDLY changed , it's still considered a curio and relic".
The bloke said its exactly the same logic as an M1 Garand in caliber .308
instead of 30.06. As long as its still in military configuration its OK.

Now, let the fun begin !!!!!!!

Gary

Did you tape the conversation?

Did you request a summary in writing?

Unless or until, its just a he said she said...though I applaud your perseverance...

Call back and ask for the same guy...tape the conversation (with his permission)...read back his answers from the prior call and ask for him to send you a letter that 'explicitly' approves of this (on BOF letterhead of course)

gazzavc
10-05-2007, 7:32 PM
I have sent a request in writing to them. As far as the agent on the phone is concerned it shouldn't be a problem.

Will post more when something comes back in writing.

Gary