View Full Version : School Defense - Will we ever learn to be prepared before tragedy strikes?

09-24-2007, 8:15 PM

Experts say terrorists eye your local school
3 years after Beslan slaughter, U.S. educators still unprepared
Posted: September 20, 2007

WASHINGTON - Three years after Muslim terrorists attacked a school in
Beslan in North Ossetia-Alania within the Russian Federation
resulting in 396 deaths and 437 injuries, terrorism and law
enforcement experts say most U.S. schools have not prepared at all to
deal with the possibility of such an assault.

More disturbingly, they say, such attacks are most definitely being
prepared and rehearsed in Islamic terrorist camps around the world.

In videotapes captured in Afghanistan, al-Qaida terrorists practiced
the takeover of a school - issuing commands in English, separating
children into manageable groups and killing anyone who offered
resistance. Some hostages were take to rooftops, dangled over the
edge, then shot for the sake of cameras and onlookers.

In Iraq, the floor plans of several schools in Virginia, Texas and
New Jersey were found in the possession of captured terrorists.

Meanwhile, in the U.S. law enforcement authorities have uncovered
what appear to be probing missions by terrorists attempting to get
jobs as school bus drivers and making inquiries about armed security
personnel in schools.

Lt. Col. Dave Grossman has been attempting to get local law
enforcement training for what he considers to be these inevitable
attacks in the future. He points out how U.S. schools all have
regular fire drills despite the fact that not one child has been
killed by fire in an American school in the last 25 years.

"We need to treat the threat of violence like the threat of fire," he
tells those willing to listen.

Grossman and Todd Rassa, a trainer with the SigArms Academy, say the
most likely targets of terrorist attacks in the U.S. are rural
schools where response time by law enforcement is slow. The targets
will probably be in states "with no concealed-carry laws and no
hunting culture" and in communities where police do not have rifles.

Even though they say U.S. law enforcement can learn much about such
attacks by studying Beslan, attacks in the U.S. will probably be
different in some ways.

Some 100 terrorists were involved in that attack, nearly half of them
embedded in a large crowd of parents, staff and children who showed
up for the first day of school. Others arrived for the surprise
attack in SUVs, troop carriers and bigger sedans.

Experts predict smaller groups of terrorists at any single location
in the U.S. But Grossman expects simultaneous attacks at multiple
school locations - at least four. Middle schools are the most likely
targets because girls are old enough to rape but students are not big
enough to fight back effectively.

They say the attackers will kill everyone they see - students,
teachers and parents alike - as they move in to seize the school.
They will plant bombs throughout buildings, while raping and
murdering and throwing out bodies as they did in Beslan.

The pair of trainers say the most effective deterrent to such attacks
is to ensure there is an armed presence within every school. They
recommend armed security as well as encouraging teachers and
administrators to carry firearms.

"Even one or two armed teachers in a school can make a difference,"
says Grossman. "One man or woman with effective fire from behind
cover inside the school can hold off a group of attackers for five

That could be enough time for police, or other help, to get to the

They say it's also important to be vigilant in watching for
reconnaissance efforts by terrorists. They will never attack a target
without probing it first, say the experts. This could involve
photographs and videotape.

In March, the FBI and Homeland Security Department distributed a
bulletin to law enforcement across the country warning that Muslims
with "ties to extremist groups" are signing up to be school bus
drivers. They also noted "recent suspicious activity" by foreigners
who either drive school buses or are licensed to drive them.

"The enemy is infiltrating us at all levels, and certainly school bus
drivers are one area to look at," warned Grossman, president of
Killology Research Group, an anti-terror consultancy that trains the
FBI and other law enforcement. "And how about high school, middle
school and elementary school cafeteria workers? Janitors? Delivery

Grossman believes some of those involved with future terrorist
attacks on U.S. schools are already working inside the system -
scoping out their targets.

]"Islamic terrorists are already in place in the U.S. and, yes, that
includes bus drivers, cafeteria workers and also airport workers,"
said Grossman, a former Army Ranger and West Point professor.[/SIZE]

Simultaneous attacks on schools in multiple states would follow Osama
bin Laden's goal of crippling the U.S. economy. If multiple schools
were hit, Grossman says, parents would drop out of the work force en
masse to protect their children. A prolonged labor disruption would
cost businesses billions of dollars in lost revenue.

The 9/11 mastermind now in custody at Gitmo recently suggested
al-Qaida may be targeting school children. Khalid Sheikh Mohammed
said in his confession before a military tribunal that while he may
not like killing kids, they're fair game in jihad. He claims U.S.
forces bombed and killed the children of bin Laden's top deputy,
Ayman Al-Zawahiri, and arrested and "abused" his own children.

Recent events come on top of several other school bus-related
incidents involving Mideast men that raise suspicion of terror

They include last year's surprise boarding of a school bus in Tampa,
Fla., by two Saudi men dressed in trench coats. Authorities suspect
they were making a dry run to see how easy it would be to hijack or
blow up a school bus filled with innocent American students.

Previously, an Arab man from Detroit was caught trying to obtain a
job as a school bus driver in New York using fake Social Security

Experts also worry about terrorists operating independently of
al-Qaida. "There are many lone wolves and self-starters out there who
could attack at any time," Grossman warned.

Muslim gunman Sulejman Talovic was loaded for bear in February when
he opened fire on shoppers in a Salt Lake City mall. He was armed
with a shotgun, a .38 pistol and a backpack full of ammunition. He
killed five and would have kept killing if an alert off-duty police
officer hadn't returned fire and helped stop him.

"The time may come when that one cop will have to keep several adults
at bay, preventing them from prosecuting their assault plan on our
kids until support arrives," said John Giduck, president of Archangel
Group, an antiterror training service.

09-24-2007, 8:23 PM
Will we ever learn to be prepared before tragedy strikes?


"Gun free zone" signs on the walls are all the protection our children need.

I was just observing security at the various Yom Kippur events this weekend and they had no armed guards. None! They had untrained guards, just ordinary people with no training, in uniforms, standing around. Nothing more than bullet sponges. Fortunately nothing happened, but that's the American idea for school and / or religious service safety: hope that nothing happens.

There should be staff at every school, and every at-risk religious center, who have training and access to a ready-to-go tactical shotgun or similar weapon. There should also be staff who are CCWing. That's the only effective way to prevent mass shooting type attacks. As we saw with the police response in the Columbine shootings (seal the area, do not interfere with the shooters), there need to be on-site staff members who are ready to go.

09-24-2007, 8:39 PM
Same thing at our Shul. Loads of rent a cops, but no visible weapons. Personally, I made sure I had protection with me for the day. It has always been lurking in the back of my mind that on the high holidays, we are so very vulnerable when we are at services. I would have hoped for a visible armed presence as a detterent, but have never seen any.

Nuff said.


09-24-2007, 8:53 PM
well the security gaurds could always pick up some rock and through it at the bad guys while we wait several minutes before the cops come. We have an endless amount of ammo. (rocks)

09-24-2007, 8:55 PM
Yom Kipur is the most vulnerable day of the year for Jews. It's the day with the highest attendance, and when Jews are the most focused on introspection. It's also the holiest (sort of) day and is the ideal day for an attack.

And they get these bullet sponges to do guard duty. And in a major Jewish city like LA everyone can be quite certain, there are no armed people there.

It's just a matter of time before something happens. Fortunately not this year, hopefully never, but you know it will.

well the security gaurds could always pick up some rock and through it at the bad guys while we wait several minutes before the cops come. We have an endless amount of ammo. (rocks)

These totally untrained rent-a-cops couldn't even do that. They would run if they were in good enough shape to run (they're not). They serve absolutely no purpose. They are ordinary, out-of-shape untrained people who happen to be wearing uniforms. A total waste of money. Hiring them is charity.

09-24-2007, 9:17 PM
January 17, 1989. Patrick Purdy walked into Cleveland Elementary School in Stockton, Ca and killed 5 kids and wounded 29 others. This was THE shooting spree that kicked off the AWB in California and fueled the Federal AWB.

What have we done since to make sure this never happens again? Nothing. All the gun laws in the world wouldn't have stopped this sicko. Obviously outlawing murder and having the death penalty wasn't a deterrent. Our lawmakers can dream up all the feel good laws they want, but crazy people just don't seem to care about breaking the law.

09-24-2007, 9:37 PM
this week, as part of my volunteer thingee at work (i work for cal state hayward), we had a meeting with the univ police dept.

they came in to discuss if we ever have a bomb threat.

anyways, it was the typical who/what/where/when etc...

at the end, i was talking with the head of the campus emergency reponse person, who i kinda know well.

we were walking to our new building and he was showing me how the doors with the pushbar to open, can be locked in case we needed to lock down our building.

suddenly, he shows me a checklist of what virginia tech came up with, and how we can implement it.

one of the checkpoints mentioned firearms.

so i mentioned i would like to be given permission to...

then he suddenly when on some wacky tangent about the univ cops having issues with being issued "long rifles" as he called it since the bullet can go on for miles... blah blah blah...

right then and there, i knew i was FUBARed...


guess i can just continue to put up my GUN FREE ZONES signs all over my office...

09-24-2007, 10:20 PM
I don't recall many teachers I would want to be armed. Of course some of my classmates were strapped and that probably wasn't any better. There were armed cops on campus from jr. high on.

God Bless The Mauser
09-25-2007, 10:31 AM
I'm thinking about going to my school and seeing if they would consider arming some of the people that are actually at the school. There are cops around the area but we need to arm some of the people that would be the ones getting shot at. There are some people at school that I would never trust to be armed but there are others that would very trustworthy. Just a few teachers and a few students armed is better than nothing.

I'm 17 and I want a CCW but I know I would have a very slim chance at actually getting one based on the fact that I am a teenager. Well there are dumb teenagers out there but there are also dumb adults. An individual should not have to be an adult to be able to defend themselves. I have not seen anything restricting age on CCWs though. My dad is thinking about going down and getting a CCW again and maybe I could go with him and apply for one and see if they let me. I know the place I found that does the CCW training has no age limit but I don't know how the sheriff feels about it.

09-25-2007, 11:14 AM
I've been seriously thinking of putting my IIIA vest in my trunk... as near as I can tell there are no rules against keeping body armour in your car while at school.

heck in the cooler months I wouldn't mind wearing some light stuff under a sweatshirt.

09-25-2007, 11:52 AM
And in a major Jewish city like LA everyone can be quite certain, there are no armed people there.

Don't bet on that.

A good friend of mine does security at a few Jewish centers and on Holy days some of his staff does security for various temples and meeting places, all are armed.
On occasion he has invited me to come over and show him my latest handgun purchase. I always seem to get there just before services start, being a Gentile I wait outside for him, just kinda walking the property until he's done inside.

I told him long ago that he was welcome to carry his sidearm on my property and his friends always reciprocate, kind fellows that they are.

Things aren't always as exposed and vulnerable as they seem.

09-25-2007, 12:07 PM
Oh, that's true, on private property they can CC without a CCW, so maybe there are armed people there. I didn't consider that. I hope so. I know that only about 1,500 residents of LA county have CCW permits so the odds of any one of them being in any particular place are quite low. (And yes, a handful of LA rabbis do have CCWs.)

09-25-2007, 12:11 PM
Keep in mind that heat can degrade vests -- some faster than others.

ETA: But bullets degrade flesh faster.

I've been seriously thinking of putting my IIIA vest in my trunk... as near as I can tell there are no rules against keeping body armour in your car while at school.

heck in the cooler months I wouldn't mind wearing some light stuff under a sweatshirt.