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elite_is3
09-23-2007, 9:53 PM
Well id like to pick up an Optic for my AR-15 and the pricepoint is a turnoff for the originals so im looking at a replica OR a lower priced brand. where can i get a good replica or something comparable for less? links please if you can

im more interested in feedback in whether a particuler replica etc, is better than most, im looking for an ALTERNATIVE more than just the cheapest product available

oaklander
09-23-2007, 10:11 PM
I have one of these on my AR - it's good:

http://www.1337tactical.com/shop/productview.php?productId=111

WallyGeorge
09-23-2007, 10:21 PM
I have that scope as well and its a great value. I replaced it with an EOtech so no need for it anymore.

Let me know if you want one and I'll throw mine on the marketplace board for cheap. :D

elite_is3
09-23-2007, 10:51 PM
would the SPOT sights be any better than l33tTACTICAL

http://www.mountsplus.com/miva/merchant.mvc?page=MSP/PROD/SPOT/SPO-MK3-NR3

1911 in 916
09-24-2007, 2:27 AM
I have one of these on my AR - it's good:

http://www.1337tactical.com/shop/productview.php?productId=111

I have the same one too. Did you get instructions with yours? It's ok for the price. It holds at 25 yards real good so far. I been able to get consistant 1-1.5 groupings.

WallyGeorge
09-24-2007, 9:09 AM
would the SPOT sights be any better than l33tTACTICAL

http://www.mountsplus.com/miva/merchant.mvc?page=MSP/PROD/SPOT/SPO-MK3-NR3

Yes, they seem to get better reviews (I only have the 1337Tactical scope). However, the SPOT is $100 more than the 1337, and its still a "clone".

If you want more info. than you can read about these two scopes, go to ar15.com and use the search function.

bwiese
09-24-2007, 10:52 AM
"Good" replica? BWAAAAAH!

Not only are you buying junk liable to drift or fail, you're helping assist illegal/immoral copyright and 'trade dress' violations by Red Chinese. You're also helping raise the price for the rest of us who buy legit products.

Vendors like Trijicon (ACOG), Aimpoint, EoTech and Leupold build good products with good support/warranties. The discount goons illegally copy the external appearance and then put in crap on on the inside.

The US quality scope companies also back our troops, shooters and the NRA. You think NcStar and other crapper companies (and their ultimate boss Hu Jintao) do that?

If you can't afford a legit copy right now, save your pennies, work a night shift, brew your own coffee in a mug instead of going to Starbucks (there's $2.50+ a day right there!) and eat a few TV dinners and weenie-beenie.

elite_is3
09-24-2007, 5:18 PM
tried looking for a search button on AR15.com and i think you need to be a member to use it? lol am i blind...

QuickOnTheDraw
09-24-2007, 6:09 PM
I agree with BWIESE! I had the tactical clonepoint and while its ok it's no Aimpoint! It eventually wouldn't hold zero after 1200-1500 rounds, and I picked up a used Aimpoint with mount for $375.00. Save your money and get the real Aimpoint, it will last a lifetime, hold zero, and have a factory warranty. You get what you pay for when it comes to optics.

cornholio1
09-24-2007, 8:44 PM
Get what you can afford. I would save a bit more and get an authentic. Get a clone if your hard on cash and sell it to your buddy when you can afford the real deal.

elite_is3
09-24-2007, 11:17 PM
it doesnt have to be an AIMPOINT replica, just a lower priced RED DOT optic.
any feedback on the Burris Xtreme Tactical SpeedDot XTS-135?
http://www.talonarms.com/talonarms/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=22_252&products_id=456

shooterx10
09-25-2007, 8:42 AM
:iagree: with Bill on this one. If you're going to shoot real ammo, get the real scope.

Unless you plan to put the fake Aimpoint (I've even seen "AMPOINT" on some airsoft rifles) on an airsoft rifle for skirmishing, scenario games, or just plinking in a safe area, then it's not worth the money.

maxicon
09-25-2007, 9:26 AM
The Burris XTS-135 gets decent reviews (and nobody beats up on Burris for infringement, for some reason), as does the SPOT lookalike. Avoid the XTS-235 - Burris reportedly says they have trouble holding zero when switching reticles, and is discontinuing them.

If I were going to spend the money the Burris costs, I'd spring for the Bushnell Holosight instead, but I like the Eotech style better than the Aimpoint style.

If you just want to find out how you like the Aimpoint style sights without spending much money, the 1337tactical lookalikes are good for that, and you can re-sell them easily when you upgrade to a better scope. I've had good luck with mine, but haven't really put it through any abuse.

ETA:
Here are a couple of ongoing threads on inexpensive lookalike sights. Read through them and make up your own mind, based on the input of people who have owned them.

Bushnell MP Trophy - http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=18&t=297384

1337tactical aimpoint lookalike - http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=18&t=258960

You can also scroll through the various threads in the arfcom optics forum - http://www.ar15.com/forums/forum.html?b=3&f=18

Jicko
09-25-2007, 9:48 AM
Well id like to pick up an Optic for my AR-15 and the pricepoint is a turnoff for the originals so im looking at a replica OR a lower priced brand. where can i get a good replica or something comparable for less? links please if you can

im more interested in feedback in whether a particuler replica etc, is better than most, im looking for an ALTERNATIVE more than just the cheapest product available

Can't afford "optics"? USE IRON-SIGHT!!!!

+1 with bill...

boogak
09-26-2007, 10:22 AM
Can't afford "optics"? USE IRON-SIGHT!!!!

+1 with bill...

+1 practice iron sights while saving for a nice optic. i bought cheap once and ended up wasting money. could of put it toward the real one.

stator
09-28-2007, 7:07 PM
The Eotech laser LED component is made in China, and their 3X magnifier is made in China. Aimpoint is a Swedish company.

draconianruler
09-29-2007, 2:18 AM
My clone point from 1337tactical is decent and don't really see a difference between it and the real aimpoint. The only thing is that the pin holding one of the lense cover fell out and i lost it (pin).

elite_is3
09-29-2007, 12:51 PM
yea i ended up getting the SPOT for 120 from csgunworks

i was considering the burris xts-235 but it was getting discontinued.

the SPOT works great

Josh3239
09-29-2007, 1:12 PM
Just go with a real high quality scope or iron sights. I played the game with replica/low quality scopes several times and now I wish I hadn't wasted my money.

WallyGeorge
09-30-2007, 12:10 PM
yea i ended up getting the SPOT for 120 from csgunworks

$120? Wow, that's a great price! :D
Did you have to call to get that price?

SemiAutoSam
09-30-2007, 12:31 PM
While I agree 100% with Billy Ray here I would like to see all of us do the same thing with every Chinese product out there at wally world.

BUY AMERICAN PEOPLE.

Don't support a communist country with slave labor.





"Good" replica? BWAAAAAH!

Not only are you buying junk liable to drift or fail, you're helping assist illegal/immoral copyright and 'trade dress' violations by Red Chinese. You're also helping raise the price for the rest of us who buy legit products.

Vendors like Trijicon (ACOG), Aimpoint, EoTech and Leupold build good products with good support/warranties. The discount goons illegally copy the external appearance and then put in crap on on the inside.

The US quality scope companies also back our troops, shooters and the NRA. You think NcStar and other crapper companies (and their ultimate boss Hu Jintao) do that?

If you can't afford a legit copy right now, save your pennies, work a night shift, brew your own coffee in a mug instead of going to Starbucks (there's $2.50+ a day right there!) and eat a few TV dinners and weenie-beenie.

aplinker
09-30-2007, 2:17 PM
While I agree 100% with Billy Ray here I would like to see all of us do the same thing with every Chinese product out there at wally world.

BUY AMERICAN PEOPLE.

Don't support a communist country with slave labor.

Yes, buy products made in America...

...by Mexican slave labor.

SemiAutoSam
09-30-2007, 2:32 PM
I'm sorry to confuse you when I said America I didn't mean the entire continent of north America I meant the US of A kind of America.


Yes, buy products made in America...

...by Mexican slave labor.

mxndrnks
09-30-2007, 2:56 PM
While I agree 100% with Billy Ray here I would like to see all of us do the same thing with every Chinese product out there at wally world.

BUY AMERICAN PEOPLE.

Don't support a communist country with slave labor.

I am surprised by the amount of Anti-Chinese sentiment I keep seeing on this site.... :rolleyes:

Yes the product that come out of there are not the highest of qualities.... but not every one can justify spending the $$$$ on a high quality and more expensive scope... and if it suits there needs and they are happy with the product.... Then it is great for them! And .... if you like the one you get enough...... save up and buy yourself the real one.... You will be super happy over the improvements you get!

EricCartmann
09-30-2007, 3:39 PM
"Good" replica? BWAAAAAH!

Not only are you buying junk liable to drift or fail, you're helping assist illegal/immoral copyright and 'trade dress' violations by Red Chinese. You're also helping raise the price for the rest of us who buy legit products.

Vendors like Trijicon (ACOG), Aimpoint, EoTech and Leupold build good products with good support/warranties. The discount goons illegally copy the external appearance and then put in crap on on the inside.

The US quality scope companies also back our troops, shooters and the NRA. You think NcStar and other crapper companies (and their ultimate boss Hu Jintao) do that?

If you can't afford a legit copy right now, save your pennies, work a night shift, brew your own coffee in a mug instead of going to Starbucks (there's $2.50+ a day right there!) and eat a few TV dinners and weenie-beenie.


I always laugh at your posts. You are such a playa hater and I can tell you don't like anything of value. All these companies are goons like the rest of us. They are all trying to make a buck. Don't think they are here for us, they are here to make money.

The original poster was asking about the clonepoints, and where to buy one... not your idea of utopia is. Or how buying an clonepoint will ruin your utopia.

EricCartmann
09-30-2007, 3:47 PM
I am surprised by the amount of Anti-Chinese sentiment I keep seeing on this site.... :rolleyes:

Yes the product that come out of there are not the highest of qualities.... but not every one can justify spending the $$$$ on a high quality and more expensive scope... and if it suits there needs and they are happy with the product.... Then it is great for them! And .... if you like the one you get enough...... save up and buy yourself the real one.... You will be super happy over the improvements you get!

These people are blind to how much of all the goods they own are made overseas. Open up a computer and about 99% of the components in it are from overseas. I challenge any of these so called "pro" Americans to let me in their house, and inventory all their things. I'll bet $100 to anyone that I'll find at least 20 things in that house made in China.

EricCartmann
09-30-2007, 3:54 PM
Can't afford "optics"? USE IRON-SIGHT!!!!

+1 with bill...

hah! That's a joke. That's like saying "can't afford Nikes, then go barefoot"

People can, and should be able to buy whatever they want.

EricCartmann
09-30-2007, 4:33 PM
Now for those of you that want to know how the clonepoints work... I have to say for the price they kick ***! I have had mine for almost 2 years before I bought a real Aimpoint to replace it. I did not need the real Aimpoint, but what can you say, I am a the ultimate mall ninja and I like designer labels. :)

Can't even tell the difference:
http://images26.fotki.com/v960/photos/9/932051/5242512/AimpointFakePoint-vi.jpg


For those of you who think I don't support the American Optic Companies, think again. I have a $1100 Leupold, a $800 ACOG, a $400 Aimpoint, and $350 Eotech. But I also like the vaule of things, such as my $230 DMS 1-4x optic, and my $70 Clonepoint. I have no problem using these when the SHTF. I am still using the clonepoint mount (came free with the clonepoint) because American Mounts cost like $150!

http://images27.fotki.com/v1021/photos/9/932051/5417828/xcrARbigbro-vi.jpg http://images23.fotki.com/v806/photos/9/932051/4850997/twins-vi.jpg

elite_is3
09-30-2007, 4:40 PM
$120? Wow, that's a great price! :D
Did you have to call to get that price?

no it was a Display piece from what i was told. new in box is 149

elite_is3
09-30-2007, 4:42 PM
Now for those of you that want to know how the clonepoints work... I have to say for the price they kick ***! I have had mine for almost 2 years before I bought a real Aimpoint to replace it. I did not need the real Aimpoint, but what can you say, I am a the ultimate mall ninja and I like designer labels. :)

Can't even tell the difference:
http://images26.fotki.com/v960/photos/9/932051/5242512/AimpointFakePoint-vi.jpg


For those of you who think I don't support the American Optic Companies, think again. I have a $1100 Leupold, a $800 ACOG, a $400 Aimpoint, and $350 Eotech. But I also like the vaule of things, such as my $230 DMS 1-4x optic, and my $70 Clonepoint. I have no problem using these when the SHTF. I am still using the clonepoint mount (came free with the clonepoint) because American Mounts cost like $150!

http://images27.fotki.com/v1021/photos/9/932051/5417828/xcrARbigbro-vi.jpg

nice collection!:D

aplinker
09-30-2007, 5:03 PM
I'm sorry to confuse you when I said America I didn't mean the entire continent of north America I meant the US of A kind of America.

No confusion, I was referring to the illegal immigrant slave laborers who make the "Proudly made in USA" products.

SemiAutoSam
09-30-2007, 5:20 PM
Well OK I dont control Hiring the illegal aliens but at least the products are made here and help support American companies.

That has to be a plus over helping the Chin economy dont ya think.


No confusion, I was referring to the illegal immigrant slave laborers who make the "Proudly made in USA" products.

EricCartmann
09-30-2007, 5:32 PM
Well OK I dont control Hiring the illegal aliens but at least the products are made here and help support American companies.

That has to be a plus over helping the Chin economy dont ya think.

How do you feel about selling American stuff overseas? Would that not support American companies?

edittman1
09-30-2007, 9:59 PM
I'm gonna get this:

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=859535&utm_source=nextag&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=657

ar15barrels
09-30-2007, 10:16 PM
I'm gonna get this:

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=859535&utm_source=nextag&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=657

So you like the look of the Facog?

I saw this thread and I'm suprised it took our "defender of all things cheap" friend a whole week to get here... :43:

EricCartmann
09-30-2007, 10:20 PM
So you like the look of the Facog?

I saw this thread and I'm suprised it took our "defender of all things cheap" friend a whole week to get here... :43:

well thats because I have not been checking in as much as usual :43: :D

also if you are going to go FakeAcog, there are much better altenatives. And it has a pretty good glass and 4x mag to boot too.

edittman1
09-30-2007, 10:49 PM
Well, I'm a total newb on a budget. So, I'm all ears on better alternatives.. But for $150 that looked like a decent set of optics.

That is not a knockoff either, seeing as how Bushnell makes it. They did model off of the style of the Trijicon ACOG no doubt, but there is nothing wrong with that. For 1/10th the price, I expect 1/10th the experience. That's fine with me.

I have had quite a few hobbies over the years and it's pretty startling how the firearm community is so full of elitists who like to knock anything that isn't the most expensive or most popular... But hey, just calling it like I see it I guess..

ar15barrels
09-30-2007, 10:59 PM
That is not a knockoff either, seeing as how Bushnell makes it. They did model off of the style of the Trijicon ACOG no doubt, but there is nothing wrong with that. For 1/10th the price, I expect 1/10th the experience. That's fine with me.

So if Sub-par performance is acceptable in-light of the low price, you should be fine.

The only similarity that has to a real ACOG is the outward appearance.
Real ACOG's are magnified and use tritium to illuminate the reticle.
That one is not magnified and uses a battery.

I don't know what you mean by "model off of the style of", but that's exactly the same term that a company would use when cloning someone elses products.
The REASON they do this is because people recognize "the style of".

If $150 is your budget, I recommend you look for a dot sight that's made in Japan vs one that's made in China.
That's a step in the right direction.

edittman1
09-30-2007, 11:05 PM
I see your point Randall, and it's a good one. My friend said to save my money and get an ACOG. He also says that optics are the most important part of the rifle and are worth doing right.

But, I figure for a temporary sight, that one would suffice.

If your budget was under $200, which red dot sight would you recommend that is made in Japan? I am completely new to all of this and would love some expert advice. Thanks!

EricCartmann
09-30-2007, 11:06 PM
Check out the ACOG replica on 1337 tactical. I believe uncompany sells the same one. It as 4x optic just like a real ACOG. There is no tritium and glass is not as clear as a real ACOG, but for $150 it is a screming deal (considering a real ACOG cost about $800-$900.

ar15barrels
09-30-2007, 11:09 PM
I see your point Randall, and it's a good one. My friend said to save my money and get an ACOG. He also says that optics are the most important part of the rifle and are worth doing right.

But, I figure for a temporary sight, that one would suffice.

If your budget was under $200, which red dot sight would you recommend that is made in Japan? I am completely new to all of this and would love some expert advice. Thanks!

I would be looking for a good used genuine Aimpoint or EoTech.
These can be had for around $300 and you end up with something you won't throw away when you finally get the real ACOG.

Rather than getting a "temporary sight", learn to shoot with iron sights.
A good quality optical sight will be so much more appreciated later.

ar15barrels
09-30-2007, 11:11 PM
It as 4x optic just like a real ACOG. There is no tritium and glass is not as clear as a real ACOG, but for $150 it is a screming deal (considering a real ACOG cost about $800-$900.

I bought my last REAL ACOG for $450 earlier this year.
The deals are out there, you just have to have cash in-hand and catch them QUICK.

edsel6502
09-30-2007, 11:26 PM
Well, I'm a total newb on a budget. So, I'm all ears on better alternatives.. But for $150 that looked like a decent set of optics.


Have you looked at the new red dot sights from Tru-Glo? they are in your price range.

http://www.truglo.com/content/products/firearm/red_dots/reddot_dual_multiple.asp

edittman1
09-30-2007, 11:43 PM
So, if I hold out for a trijicon ACOG, what am I looking for? What differences are there? Any specific model that fits on an AR15 well and is good for all around purposes?

I'd like to know what to keep an eye out for, so I know if the unit for sale is a good fit and will fit my needs or not. TIA!

ar15barrels
09-30-2007, 11:52 PM
There are a lot of different models.
You really need to become familiar with the different families and reticles to know which one you want.

Three basic reticles are the triangle, the donut and the ladder.
Each has it's own good and bad points.

Then you have sizes, 20mm on the little guys, 32mm on the midsize models.

The little guys come in multiple magnifications and usually with the triangle.
The mid-size models come with donuts, triangles or the ladders.

EricCartmann
10-01-2007, 9:34 AM
I bought my last REAL ACOG for $450 earlier this year.
The deals are out there, you just have to have cash in-hand and catch them QUICK.

You got lucky. I offered $800 for a NIB TA31F and he called me a lowballer! :D Even now TA31F are going for $1000 and TA31RCO's are going for about $1200. ACOGs are expensive but to me they are well worth it. They are rock solid and practically bomb proof.

I think a well used TA01NSN (which is basically a TA31F without the BAC) can go for aboout $500 if you are willing to scan the internet all day on Arfcom and other gun boards. Even a well uses ACOG you will get value as these things will last forever.

But I got to sample some clones at the last gun show and I have to say they are pretty dam good. Not just that, but if you are a mall ninja like me, you want your equipment to look good even if you can't afford the real thing :p

For $150, you will not be disappointed. Here is a pic of a TA01NSN fakecog:

http://www.uncompany.com/images/ta01copy_big.jpg

EricCartmann
10-01-2007, 9:41 AM
As for real ACOGs.....

I tried the BAC and I did not really like it. But most ACOG users said BAC is awesome once you learn how to use it.

For the guys that are lucky enough to own multiple ACOGs, the consensus is most of these guys prefer the TA11 series because of the extra eye relief.

ar15barrels
10-01-2007, 11:37 AM
As for real ACOGs.....

I tried the BAC and I did not really like it. But most ACOG users said BAC is awesome once you learn how to use it.

For the guys that are lucky enough to own multiple ACOGs, the consensus is most of these guys prefer the TA11 series because of the extra eye relief.

I don't have binocular vision so BAC does not work for me. :mad:

I mostly use the TA01NSN and I absolutely love the ladder.
I also have a little guy in 2x with the triangle.
2x is a good compromise for short to medium range 15yds to 200yds.

The TA01NSN absolutely rocks from 25yds to 400yds.

EricCartmann
10-01-2007, 1:32 PM
I don't have binocular vision so BAC does not work for me. :mad:

I mostly use the TA01NSN and I absolutely love the ladder.
I also have a little guy in 2x with the triangle.
2x is a good compromise for short to medium range 15yds to 200yds.

The TA01NSN absolutely rocks from 25yds to 400yds.

I totally agree. I can't think of a better optic for an AR than a TA01NSN. But then again I try to hold this opinion to myself as I have not extensively used other ACOGs.

If you do have shoot at 25 yards or less in a hurry, the irons on the NSN is also not bad. The glass on all ACOGs are about as clear as it gets. Only issue with the 01 and 31 series is the short eye relief, but hey it's for an AR, and AR's don't kick much so short eye relief is not really an issue.

With an ACOG you get:
- compact and relatively light package
- big field of view
- clear glass
- bomb proof package
- kick *** looks

I also like Eotechs and Aimpoints but nothing beats magnification. With a 4x ACOG I can see camoflauged rabbits through the brush, and fI can see objects better under low light conditions, things just seem to lighten up with good optics such as an ACOG.. That is what a crystal clear quality glass will do.

edittman1
10-01-2007, 1:57 PM
So, I guess I better start saving my pennies for an TA01NSN!

Wonder if I can score one for a deal somewhere..

bwiese
10-01-2007, 5:32 PM
I am surprised by the amount of Anti-Chinese sentiment I keep seeing on this site.... :rolleyes:

Umm, anti- *RED CHINESE* sentiments.

This is not racial, it's avoidance of products of criminal companies violating copyrights and trade dress. (Probably not patents in this scope, since they put in crap innards that are likely architecturally different than ACOG's prism setup.)

And I'm not even playing the 'buy American' card either - I have a selection of IOR Valdada scopes I really like.

Anything Red China touches, it trashes. (This was told to me by a Chinese dude.)



Yes the product that come out of there are not the highest of qualities....


I wouldn't scrape dog turds with a chinese scope.

Chinese scopes and Ruger Mini14s deserve each other: each one can mask the other's slop.

but not every one can justify spending the $$$$ on a high quality and more expensive scope...

Maybe they should work harder? A few extra hours? Brew their own coffee instead of buying $3 Starbucks?

If you buy a good scope from a good company it lasts a lifetime, can be repaired (unlikely it's even needed), has warranty.

How much ammo and time do you waste when a Chinese scope fails and you have to put another scope on and re-zero?


and if it suits there needs and they are happy with the product.... Then it is great for them!

These scopes are so bad, that's about like saying people should just sh*t in their underwear if they're happy with it.

bwiese
10-01-2007, 7:13 PM
I own a real Aimpoint that's 10 years old and still going strong after innumerable rounds, several tactical courses and desert trips where the rifle and scope were treated like the tools they are.

I doubt you'll get more than six months out of one of the knock-offs under rough conditions.

Multiply that low price point by 20 and compare it to the cost of the real thing.

That says it best.

Kinda why I got a Rolex - I kept going thru Seikos.

EricCartmann
10-02-2007, 1:13 AM
cool. I hope when Bill says "All chinese stuff is junk" you guys believe him.

Hopefully this will drive down the prices of Chinese Polytech's and Norinco's M14s (the most dimensionally perfect M14 on the market today).

As the old saying goes, if you say it enough it must be true.

edsel6502
10-02-2007, 11:13 AM
cool. I hope when Bill says "All chinese stuff is junk" you guys believe him.

Hopefully this will drive down the prices of Chinese Polytech's and Norinco's M14s (the most dimensionally perfect M14 on the market today).

As the old saying goes, if you say it enough it must be true.

Hell yeah. What Bill and Ted (excelllent!!!...) said is true. Most Chinese stuff is junk. But like all manufactured things, QC will improve in time.

My company does business in China. We have a development center in China. I have found that you have to be on your toes as the chinese engineers though hard working and cheap :) Tend to copy everything. I hate it when I find open source code with the copyrights removed passed as company code.

This is a sad fact. Modern China has lost the ability to innovate. The only thing they know to do well is to follow rote instructions and to copy. I'm not even going to get into Chinese food products.

So I will repeat Bill and Ted's excellent advice. Buy crap if you have no choice. Be prepared to replace it down the line. Or suck it up. Go without and then get something nice.

Bill and Ted have met me so IRL so if you think I'm being anti-chinese, that will be funny as all hell.

edsel6502
10-02-2007, 11:18 AM
I just had another thought.. I know its bad.. I'm thinking...

IMO. Its not Red China that is a problem. I would prefer Red China. That way the government can still control and at least still pretend to have standards.

The trouble is that we have a billion plus people wanting free markets etc., and have no qualms about cutting corners to be a capitalist. Its just like the good old US of A early on in the 20th century. The problem is there is a butt load more chinese this time doing it.

EricCartmann
10-02-2007, 11:25 AM
Hell yeah. What Bill and Ted (excelllent!!!...) said is true. Most Chinese stuff is junk. But like all manufactured things, QC will improve in time.

My company does business in China. We have a development center in China. I have found that you have to be on your toes as the chinese engineers though hard working and cheap :) Tend to copy everything. I hate it when I find open source code with the copyrights removed passed as company code.

This is a sad fact. Modern China has lost the ability to innovate. The only thing they know to do well is to follow rote instructions and to copy. I'm not even going to get into Chinese food products.

So I will repeat Bill and Ted's excellent advice. Buy crap if you have no choice. Be prepared to replace it down the line. Or suck it up. Go without and then get something nice.

Bill and Ted have met me so IRL so if you think I'm being anti-chinese, that will be funny as all hell.


Thanks for playing. I was getting bored today.


Sounds to me you are anti-red-chinese. You probably hate Nixon too because he made formal relations with China. Let me quess, you are Hong Kongnese? Taiwanese? If you are Taiwanese, don't worry, Red China will eventually take Taiwan and you will be one of them.


I would not say they lost the ability to innovate. Paper, gun powder, and the compass were invented in China. It is true that the grounds there does not allow innovation has much as here in America but they "can" innovate if needed to. When there is a need there will be innovation. Bill Walsh was innovative, :D he did not have the players to compete so he came up with the West Coast Offense and he made them competitive. Walsh even said that if not for the "lack of talent" with his teams, he would have not came up with the West Coast offense.


+1 on QC. People who think an American can put together a scope better than a Chinese person is just fooling themselves. It's all about Quality Control. USA has it, China does not (for the most case, but not all cases, see Polytech M14's)

edsel6502
10-02-2007, 2:50 PM
Thanks for playing. I was getting bored today.


Sounds to me you are anti-red-chinese. You probably hate Nixon too because he made formal relations with China. Let me quess, you are Hong Kongnese? Taiwanese? If you are Taiwanese, don't worry, Red China will eventually take Taiwan and you will be one of them.


I would not say they lost the ability to innovate. Paper, gun powder, and the compass were invented in China. It is true that the grounds there does not allow innovation has much as here in America but they "can" innovate if needed to. When there is a need there will be innovation. Bill Walsh was innovative, :D he did not have the players to compete so he came up with the West Coast Offense and he made them competitive. Walsh even said that if not for the "lack of talent" with his teams, he would have not came up with the West Coast offense.


+1 on QC. People who think an American can put together a scope better than a Chinese person is just fooling themselves. It's all about Quality Control. USA has it, China does not (for the most case, but not all cases, see Polytech M14's)

Heh. I am probably anti-red chinese then. No skin off my asiatic tuckus... :)

At this point in time, the quality of manufactured goods from China is just terrible. They will get there eventually. Please don't get me wrong I like a good deal, as such I will continue buying chinese products. But in this particular case, I'm content to wait and drool or buy the darn thing right away and then go hungry.

Please also note. I said, "modern China". Old china was pretty inventive as you have said above. This weird disconnect between old and new, I believe this is due to cultural, education and political influences. The chinese system to date does not encourage inventiveness. They tend to emphasize harmony and all that hippy-like stuff. That IMO is a strength as you tend to get people willing to grind it out and toe the line. Especially in a factory assembly line. The weakness is that when you do innovate/be enterprising you tend to 'cut corners'. I have read of situations where the chinese farmers where using toxic whatever to treat food products. When told that this would be bad to consumers. The reply was that people in cities get free health care. However, during my last trip there, this lack of innovation/QC/whatever seems to recognized and people are trying to do something about it. ie. executing the equivalent of the Chinese head of the FDA.

After all my ranting I still say in this particular instance. The following holds true.

1. If you really really want a red dot sight. Get one. Get what you can afford. Realise it is usually not as well built and durable as the more spendy ones.
2. If you really want a good red dot sight. Save your moolah. I know It sound eird but glass tends to cost more the bloody boomstick
3. Chinese products depending on what and how they are used suffer from QC issues. Caveat Emptor.

Oh yeah... when you do get good glass. Mounts and the like will cost an arm and a leg too.

maxicon
10-02-2007, 8:59 PM
I'm always amused by the "Chinese stuff is all crap" line. Might as well say "American stuff is all top notch", and you'd be just as accurate. The implication is that being born in China makes people unable to care about producing quality goods, when it may just be that we only see the cheap junk that Americans choose to import.

Being an American manufacturer doesn't mean squat when you compare the guy behind Hesse Arms and Mark LaRue. Is it possible there are some Chinese Mark LaRues, and we just haven't imported their stuff yet because it's expensive?

Sturgeon's Law says "90% of everything is crap", and I believe it's a pretty good rule of thumb, whether you apply it to 300 million Americans or 1 billion Chinese.

mxndrnks
10-02-2007, 9:35 PM
So many intelligent responses on here...... Making me laugh.....:smilielol5: