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gspam1
09-23-2007, 7:15 PM
A relative is visiting me in AZ and is happy to take all my CA illegal EBRs back to Oregon with him (I'm moving to CA). I don't want him to get into trouble if he is stopped in CA for some reason. He drives a van so there isn't a trunk. Searching the forum here, it looks like he's fine if I lock the unloaded EBRs in a case separate from any ammo.

All my rifle cases are discreet soft cases. Will a luggage lock through the zipper tabs count as locked or do I need to go out and buy a stack of hard rifle cases?

I'm assuming my collection of stripped OLLs would need to be in a locked case as well?

Thanks!

Crazed_SS
09-23-2007, 7:16 PM
EDIT: I didnt read your question clearly. Im not sure what you're asking here.

.. but just FYI, Long guns (Including legally configured OLL Rifles) dont need to be locked up. Only Handguns and Registered Assault Weapons need to be locked up.

-aK-
09-23-2007, 7:22 PM
A locked soft case is a locked case.

But did you say that they are illegal to be in CA?

SemiAutoSam
09-23-2007, 7:26 PM
If the Man is driving over 1000 miles of California highways It would be a good idea for the Rifles to be in some kind of a lockable case and for that case to be buried in the vehicle IMHO.

Crazed_SS would you be comfortable making the same trip with a pile of OLR's (Off List Rifles) just tossed in the back seat ?

I know I would not be.

You wouldn't even have to lock them up but it would keep a NOSY CHP from opening the case without PC I would think.

I have a nice Stainless Steel box in one of my vehicles that easily stores 6 full sized rifles under lock and key somewhat like the tool boxes that have a larger size master pad lock where the only part that is accessible is the end of the lock where the key goes in.

You dont have to go that overkill but a nice locking case would be a good idea when traveling such a distance in a hostile environment towards firearms such as the California highways.

sloguy
09-23-2007, 7:30 PM
if the rifle isnt legal here then a locked case wont make it any more legal.

Crazed_SS
09-23-2007, 7:30 PM
I usually throw long guns in the cheapy plastic or nylon gun cases I got a Wally world. From that other thread a couple days ago, it seems cops can inspect them regardless of if the case is locked as a result of them being in gun cases.



Regarding this thread though.. I dont know what the OP is asking here.. It sounds like he's asking if someone can drive unregistered AWs out of the state for him. That's bad juju and not legal.

SemiAutoSam
09-23-2007, 7:35 PM
That would depend on how its seen as illegal.

If its A OLL rifle just dismantling it would make it legal unless its a listed rifle.

IE its only illegal if its on Roberti Roos or the kasler list.

If its not on either of those the OP or his friend only needs to take the rifle apart.

Then its 100% legal to transport.

if the rifle isn't legal here then a locked case wont make it any more legal.

gspam1
09-23-2007, 7:36 PM
Sorry, I wasn't very clear. The rifles in question would be illegal in CA. On-list ARs, FN PS-90, etc. They are taking them from AZ (where Legal) to OR (where Legal) but have to drive through CA. If I can avoid buying multiple Pelican cases I'll never use again, I would like to do that.

In addition to the complete EBRs above, I have multiple stripped AR lowers (Sun Devil). These are OLLs to the best of my knowledge but I think I would need to install Bullet Buttons or similar in all of them to keep them legally in CA. I'd rather leave them stripped for now so off to Oregon they go too.

Is it illegal to even drive through CA with an unloaded, locked AW even if that weapon is legal in the resident's home state?

bwiese
09-23-2007, 7:39 PM
A relative is visiting me in AZ and is happy to take all my CA illegal EBRs back to Oregon with him (I'm moving to CA). I don't want him to get into trouble if he is stopped in CA for some reason. He drives a van so there isn't a trunk. Searching the forum here, it looks like he's fine if I lock the unloaded EBRs in a case separate from any ammo.

STOP. DO NOT PROCEED. OR YOUR FRIEND GOES DIRECTLY TO JAIL.

(1) Jeezus, you are helping screw your friend - if he's intending to drive thru CA with CA-illegal rifles (named or configured AWs).

FOPA '86 (Firearms Owners Protection Act) still doesn't have full traction and at best may be used for defense/appeal. (Still lotsa testing in NY/NJ).

Calif's AW laws have a limited, almost-useless competition exemption. Your friend is not even close to being able to using that, esp as the rifles ain't his.

(2) Damn, giving a guy a bunch of rifles and crossing multiple state lines really doesn't sound too kosher on a Federal /BATF basis either. Better off shipping them "to yourself/Care of Mr. X" for storage there.

Honestly, your idiot friend (I'm calling him an idiot for signing up for this) should walk away from this, esp as he's likely dumber than a stick (like most outta staters) on details of CA AW laws.

If he ends up in trouble - trumped up BS or otherwise - you ain't gonna feel too good.


All my rifle cases are discreet soft cases. Will a luggage lock through the zipper tabs count as locked or do I need to go out and buy a stack of hard rifle cases?

Aside from all the other stuff above, there's no standards for what ain't a good enough locked case. A typical Galati tac bag with a lock around the double zippers, is sufficient to be considered a locked case.

I'm assuming my collection of stripped OLLs would need to be in a locked case as well?

No. May be a good idea, however. FOR YOUR MOVING THEM.

Why ain't you taking your properly-configured OLLs back into CA?

SemiAutoSam
09-23-2007, 7:39 PM
In this case it would be a lot better to ship them UPS or FEDEX in fact EVEN USPS would accept your (outside of California not considered assault weapons) Rifles to transport them from AZ to OR.



Sorry, I wasn't very clear. The rifles in question would be illegal in CA. On-list ARs, FN PS-90, etc. They are taking them from AZ (where Legal) to OR (where Legal) but have to drive through CA. If I can avoid buying multiple Pelican cases I'll never use again, I would like to do that.

In addition to the complete EBRs above, I have multiple stripped AR lowers (Sun Devil). These are OLLs to the best of my knowledge but I think I would need to install Bullet Buttons or similar in all of them to keep them legally in CA. I'd rather leave them stripped for now.

sloguy
09-23-2007, 7:44 PM
as i was saying, being inside a locked case doesnt make an illegal weapon any more legal.

DO NOT DRIVE THRU CALIFORNIA. take the long way home, and skip cali.

CavTrooper
09-23-2007, 7:48 PM
Just a thought.
What if a guy is SHIPPING through UPS, FedEx or USPS, a legal firearm from say Yuma, AZ to Portland, OR. However once it crosses into California (supposing it had to) it becomes an illegal assault weapon. What would be the status of the firearm while in California and what would be the penalty to the carrier for transporting said firearm?

gspam1
09-23-2007, 7:55 PM
STOP. DO NOT PROCEED. OR YOUR FRIEND GOES DIRECTLY TO JAIL.

(1) Jeezus, you are helping screw your friend - if he's intending to drive thru CA with CA-illegal rifles (named or configured AWs).

FOPA '86 (Firearms Owners Protection Act) still doesn't have full traction and at best may be used for defense/appeal. (Still lotsa testing in NY/NJ).

Calif's AW laws have a limited, almost-useless competition exemption. Your friend is not even close to being able to using that, esp as the rifles ain't his.

(2) Damn, giving a guy a bunch of rifles and crossing multiple state lines really doesn't sound too kosher on a Federal /BATF basis either. Better off shipping them "to yourself/Care of Mr. X" for storage there.

Honestly, your idiot friend (I'm calling him an idiot for signing up for this) should walk away from this, esp as he's likely dumber than a stick (like most outta staters) on details of CA AW laws.

If he ends up in trouble - trumped up BS or otherwise - you ain't gonna feel too good.




Aside from all the other stuff above, there's no standards for what ain't a good enough locked case. A typical Galati tac bag with a lock around the double zippers, is sufficient to be considered a locked case.



No. May be a good idea, however. FOR YOUR MOVING THEM.

Why ain't you taking your properly-configured OLLs back into CA?

Well, ok then, sounds like driving with AWs through CA is out of the question. What about flying them to Oregon myself? I'm definitely crossing CA airspace when flying from Phoenix to Portland?

Why ain't I taking my properly-configured OLLs back in CA? My OLLs are stripped. . . bare receivers. My understanding from reading the threads is that is illegal - they need to have a Bullet Button or Prince 50 or Monsterman stock installed before crossing the CA border. I want to leave them stripped.

SemiAutoSam
09-23-2007, 8:03 PM
While im not Bill I feel that this would be a lot better proposition than driving them into Oregon but shipping them UPS or FedEx should be fine.

Call California DOJ and FEDEX, UPS to get their take on it.

If you do take a flight make sure its a non stop and Ask the airline about the legality of it as well.

you dont want the surprise of getting to the ticket counter and being told NO you cant take those rifles on this flight but BTW your ticket is non refundable.

Well, ok then, sounds like driving with AWs through CA is out of the question. What about flying them to Oregon myself? I'm definitely crossing CA airspace when flying from Phoenix to Portland?

Why ain't I taking my properly-configured OLLs back in CA? My OLLs are stripped. . . bare receivers. My understanding from reading the threads is that is illegal - they need to have a Bullet Button or Prince 50 or Monsterman stock installed before crossing the CA border. I want to leave them stripped.

bwiese
09-23-2007, 8:05 PM
Well, ok then, sounds like driving with AWs through CA is out of the question. What about flying them to Oregon myself? I'm definitely crossing CA airspace when flying from Phoenix to Portland?

CA doesn't control airspace. Go fly 'em.

Why ain't I taking my properly-configured OLLs back in CA? My OLLs are stripped. . . bare receivers. My understanding from reading the threads is that is illegal - they need to have a Bullet Button or Prince 50 or Monsterman stock installed before crossing the CA border. I want to leave them stripped.

ABSOLUTELY NOT TRUE.

Bare receivers are perfectly legal and they're sold that way at gunstores thruought California.

Go ahead & bring in your stripped OLLs, stack 'em like cordwood. Just ensure they are not listed (either as "Colt AR-15" or listed in Kasler list, 11 CCR 5499).

The only time a BB or Prince 50 or other method of rendering a fixed magazine setup is required is if the rifle is (1) assembled and (2) has evil features attached.

Thousands of Californians are now running grip-free or MonsterMan-gripped rifles that have open magwells/detachable magazines and no other evil features.

dustoff31
09-23-2007, 8:22 PM
Just a thought.
What if a guy is SHIPPING through UPS, FedEx or USPS, a legal firearm from say Yuma, AZ to Portland, OR. However once it crosses into California (supposing it had to) it becomes an illegal assault weapon. What would be the status of the firearm while in California and what would be the penalty to the carrier for transporting said firearm?

From FFL to FFL, when shipping on a common or contract carrier, if the AW is legal where you pick it up and legal where you deliver it, it is simply freight in interstate commerce, just like the box of ping pong balls next to it. There can be no penalty to the carrier unless he knows or has reason to believe the shipment is unlawful.

However, a non-licensee may not ship by common or contract carrier to a non-licensee in another state. So that's a no-go.

SemiAutoSam
09-23-2007, 8:35 PM
Care to provide a source for this ?

A person shipping their own property to themselves is totally legal IMO Even over state lines.




a non-licensee may not ship by common or contract carrier to a non-licensee in another state. So that's a no-go.

CavTrooper
09-23-2007, 8:46 PM
A private party can ship a long-gun to a FFL in another state for transfer.
A private party can ship thier own firearms to themselves in another state.

http://www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#b1

(B7) May a nonlicensee ship a firearm through the U.S. Postal Service?[Back]


A nonlicensee may not transfer a firearm to a non-licensed resident of another State. A nonlicensee may mail a shotgun or rifle to a resident of his or her own State or to a licensee in any State. The Postal Service recommends that long guns be sent by registered mail and that no marking of any kind which would indicate the nature of the contents be placed on the outside of any parcel containing firearms. Handguns are not mailable. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun.

[18 U.S.C. 1715, 922(a)(3), 922(a)(5) and 922 (a)(2)(A)]



(B8) May a nonlicensee ship a firearm by common or contract carrier? [Back]


A nonlicensee may ship a firearm by a common or contract carrier to a resident of his or her own State or to a licensee in any State. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun. In addition, Federal law requires that the carrier be notified that the shipment contains a firearm and prohibits common or contract carriers from requiring or causing any label to be placed on any package indicating that it contains a firearm.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(2)(A), 922(a) (3), 922(a)(5) and 922(e), 27 CFR 478.31 and 478.30]


(B9) May a nonlicensee ship firearms interstate for his or her use in hunting or other lawful activity? [Back]


Yes. A person may ship a firearm to himself or herself in care of another person in the State where he or she intends to hunt or engage in any other lawful activity. The package should be addressed to the owner. Persons other than the owner should not open the package and take possession of the firearm.



(B10) May a person who is relocating out of State move firearms with other household goods? [Back]


Yes. A person who lawfully possesses a firearm may transport or ship the firearm interstate when changing his or her State of residence.

Certain NFA firearms must have prior approval from the Bureau of ATF before they may be moved interstate. The person must notify the mover that firearms are being transported. He or she should also check State and local laws where relocating to ensure that movement of firearms into the new State does not violate any State law or local ordinance.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(4) and 922(e), 27 CFR 478.28 and 478.31]


(B11) What constitutes residency in a State? [Back]

This is all Fed stuff, state laws... i dont know.

dustoff31
09-23-2007, 9:03 PM
Care to provide a source for this ?

A person shipping their own property to themselves is totally legal IMO Even over state lines.

I'll have to get the exact section of the USC for you, if you like. The source I used is the BATF Federal Firearms Regulations Reference Guide, Page 178, Question B9.


B8. "May a nonlicensee ship a firearm by common or contract carrier?

Answer: A non-licensee may ship a firearm by a common or contract carrier to a resident of his or her own state or to a licensee in any state..."


B9. "May a non-licensee ship firearms interstate for his or her use in hunting or other lawful activity.

Answer: Yes. A person may ship a firearm to himself or herself in care of another person in the state where he intends to hunt or engage in any other lawful activity...."

In the case we are discussing, the person has made it clear that he does not intend to hunt or engage in any lawful activity in Oregon. He is simply moving to California.

This may seem like a minor point, but knowing this, as a carrier now my butt would be on the line, and I'd refuse the shipment.

CavTrooper
09-23-2007, 9:13 PM
In the case we are discussing, the person has made it clear that he does not intend to hunt or engage in any lawful activity in Oregon. He is simply moving to California.

This may seem like a minor point, but knowing this, as a carrier now my butt would be on the line, and I'd refuse the shipment.

You are correct IF he is selling the firearms to his friend, if he is just giving them to him for safekeeping then it appears as though he is good to ship as long as they stay sealed in the box.

B9) May a nonlicensee ship firearms interstate for his or her use in hunting or other lawful activity? [Back]


Yes. A person may ship a firearm to himself or herself in care of another person in the State where he or she intends to hunt or engage in any other lawful activity. The package should be addressed to the owner. Persons other than the owner should not open the package and take possession of the firearm.

Once he is in Oregon, lawful activity can be shooting at the range, cleaning his guns, etc. He may then legally loan or rent his firearms to his friend (under FED law, state may be different)

B1) To whom may an unlicensed person transfer firearms under the GCA? [Back]


A person may sell a firearm to an unlicensed resident of his State, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. A person may loan or rent a firearm to a resident of any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. A person may sell or transfer a firearm to a licensee in any State. However, a firearm other than a curio or relic may not be transferred interstate to a licensed collector.

dustoff31
09-23-2007, 9:15 PM
This is all Fed stuff, state laws... i dont know.

Thanks for the help CavTrooper, you were a little quicker on the draw than I was.

Assuming a lawful shipment on a common or carrier, simply passing through CA, state law is not an issue. Which is good, because that could really make me crazy.

dustoff31
09-23-2007, 9:24 PM
You are correct IF he is selling the firearms to his friend, if he is just giving them to him for safekeeping then it appears as though he is good to ship as long as they stay sealed in the box.

Well, I guess that's a judgement call. Shipping them for safekeeping isn't on the list. He has told me that he is going to California, not to Oregon.

Now, if he had just kept his mouth shut and said take this package to this address in Oregon, BTW, it's a rifle. Then I would have no reason to question it.

CavTrooper
09-23-2007, 9:28 PM
Actually, Id like to see UPS, FedEx or USPS get busted for/harrased for shipping "assault weapons" from one state to another through California. I think it would be interesting. I dont see where theres an exemption in the law for carriers to be exmpt for transporting or possessing AWs. however , theres alot to read... and its confusing.

CavTrooper
09-23-2007, 9:31 PM
Well, I guess that's a judgement call. Shipping them for safekeeping isn't on the list. He has told me that he is going to California, not to Oregon.

Now, if he had just kept his mouth shut and said take this package to this address in Oregon, BTW, it's a rifle. Then I would have no reason to question it.

Like I said, if he intends to go to Oregon 1 time to clean his guns, then he is shipping them there to engage in a lawful activity. He is then free to loan or rent to his friend. If hes trying to sell them then he must do a transfer through an FFL unles he moves to Oregon first.

dustoff31
09-23-2007, 9:33 PM
The exemption is the interstate commerce clause of the constitution and related legislation.

gspam1
09-23-2007, 9:36 PM
Now, if he had just kept his mouth shut and said take this package to this address in Oregon, BTW, it's a rifle. Then I would have no reason to question it.

Rest easy big fella, I have a home in Oregon too. Just trying to get my poor guns there from AZ, and since my relative was passing through town on his way to Oregon I was hoping the EBRs could hitch a ride.

Wow, CA sure got less friendly since I moved away. I've been called an idiot, a dumb arse, and told to keep my mouth shut in this thread. I guess I'll have to log in under a new name to ask any more stupid questions :o

CavTrooper
09-23-2007, 9:38 PM
I didnt think the US Constitution applied in California.:smartass:

kidding.

sorta.

dustoff31
09-23-2007, 9:41 PM
Like I said, if he intends to go to Oregon 1 time to clean his guns, then he is shipping them there to engage in a lawful activity. He is then free to loan or rent to his friend. If hes trying to sell them then he must do a transfer through an FFL unles he moves to Oregon first.

Understand. But he told me his intent was to move to California.

Like I said, maybe it's being overly cautious on my part. But I have no absolutely no interest in loosing my business and going to jail.

As I said before it would be very different if he just kept quiet.

ivanimal
09-23-2007, 9:50 PM
Rest easy big fella, I have a home in Oregon too. Just trying to get my poor guns there from AZ, and since my relative was passing through town on his way to Oregon I was hoping the EBRs could hitch a ride.

Wow, CA sure got less friendly since I moved away. I've been called an idiot, a dumb arse, and told to keep my mouth shut in this thread. I guess I'll have to log in under a new name to ask any more stupid questions :o

Sorry the boys get high strung when giving advice that will keep you and your friend out of the pokey.

dustoff31
09-23-2007, 9:51 PM
Rest easy big fella, I have a home in Oregon too. Just trying to get my poor guns there from AZ, and since my relative was passing through town on his way to Oregon I was hoping the EBRs could hitch a ride.

Wow, CA sure got less friendly since I moved away. I've been called an idiot, a dumb arse, and told to keep my mouth shut in this thread. I guess I'll have to log in under a new name to ask any more stupid questions :o

Well, I certainly meant no offense. You can see that current gun laws have created a mess and even paranoia.

I wouldn't recommend sending them to Oregon with your friend.

If you ship them via carrier, don't tell them more than they need to know.

CavTrooper
09-23-2007, 9:55 PM
Understand. But he told me his intent was to move to California.

Like I said, maybe it's being overly cautious on my part. But I have no absolutely no interest in loosing my business and going to jail.

As I said before it would be very different if he just kept quiet.

Understand, but did he say he was selling the firearms to his friend or having his friend move them for him? If he has his own home in Oregon, then he could ship them to himself c/o of a friend or nieghboor and pick them up when he gets there.
I belive that Fed law states that you must inform the carrier that the package contains a firearm, nothing more. I dont belive that it requires or implies that the carrier make any sort of legal determination as to the nature of the transaction. Therefore, how would the carrier be held responsible for an illegal transaction?
If I wrong please show me where.

dustoff31
09-23-2007, 10:11 PM
I belive that Fed law states that you must inform the carrier that the package contains a firearm, nothing more. I dont belive that it requires or implies that the carrier make any sort of legal determination as to the nature of the transaction. Therefore, how would the carrier be held responsible for an illegal transaction?
If I wrong please show me where.

I not saying you are wrong. I'm saying that based on what he said, As a motor carrier, I'm not willing to take the chance. Others may. I'm not required to make a legal determination, unless the person gives me cause to.

SS 478.31(c) No common or contract carrier shall transport or deliver in interstate or foreign commerce any firearm or ammunition with knowledge or reasonable cause to believe that the shipment, transportation, or receipt thereof, would be in violation of any provision of this part.

Again, "This package contains firearms, please deliver it to this address." That's all I need to know.

gspam1
09-24-2007, 6:29 AM
Again, "This package contains firearms, please deliver it to this address." That's all I need to know.

Good advice indeed.

Thanks to everyone for the help!

Rob P.
09-24-2007, 12:51 PM
I believe (I could be wrong) but I think there is an exception to the AW prohibition IF the EBR is just being transported through Calif. Out of State residents can drive through with EBR's so long as they are disassembled and in a locked case.

I could be totally wrong, partially wrong, or absolutely correct in what I said above. Since I don't own an EBR I didn't pay attention when I came across that gem so the above advice is worth what you pay for it.

bwiese
09-24-2007, 2:39 PM
I believe (I could be wrong) but I think there is an exception to the AW prohibition IF the EBR is just being transported through Calif. Out of State residents can drive through with EBR's so long as they are disassembled and in a locked case.

I could be totally wrong, partially wrong, or absolutely correct in what I said above. Since I don't own an EBR I didn't pay attention when I came across that gem so the above advice is worth what you pay for it.

OK, I'll clarify about outsiders-with-AWs matters in CA:

There are two issues here:
There is a limited, almost-worthless exemption in PC AW section for residents outside CA going to/from "sanctioned competition by a recognized body" with their AW(s). This does *not* include casual shooting or anything highly informal like the Lower Hayward Roller Derby League Easter Tin-can Shoot. You're probably at risk unless it's a formal, scheduled NRA Hi Power competition.

*Training* does not count, only competition. I believe that there may be quite a few LE trainers from outside CA that may not understand this law or are stretching it beyond recognition.

And the 'competition exemption' in CA AW laws is so ill-defined - and described only in regards to the competition - that any extended stay, shopping, dining, etc. is likely excluded. It's a very grey area, and it's biased towards the dangerous side since we have opportunities for multiple felony counts (unreg'd AW transport plus unreg'd AW importation) on top of simple AW possession charges, a "wobbler" (unless multiple AWs are involved).

It's, IMHO, best used as a defense strategy instead of something to rely upon for visitors.

[I have *heard* once - but have never substantiated! - that folks have filed for/received in the past a CA AW *permit* for a very limited time span (i.e., a day or so) for travel time surrounding the competition. This could all be apocrypha though.]


Fed law has FOPA '86 protections ("Firearms Owners Protection Act") as part of 1986 McClure-Volkmer. In theory, it protects against hassles if transporting locked/unloaded in interstate travel thru a 'denied' state. Do not expect it to be honored without a court fight; folks in NY & NJ have been bitten hard relying on it and are having to fight in court to even have it become useful to them.


Remember that we're talking about situations involving out-of-state residents.

Figure out that you don't live here and you have a job - if a problem occurred related to these outta-state-AW-in-CA matters, what about all the time & trouble of travel costs combined with forced time off your job for court attendance - in addition to legal fees fighting prospective felonies?