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STAGE 2
09-13-2007, 5:18 PM
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peepshowal
09-13-2007, 5:25 PM
I think it's been talked about here: http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=61843&highlight=922%28z%29

carsonwales
09-13-2007, 8:23 PM
sounds right.october i believe 2006 it changed by fed law

What if you supply your own 'approved' lock? Either buyer or seller?

DedEye
09-13-2007, 8:27 PM
What if you supply your own 'approved' lock? Either buyer or seller?

Can't just use the lock, because then you could just reuse the same lock. You have to havea receipt from within the last 30 days for a gun lock. However, a handwritten receipt from the seller to the buyer should qualify.

pnkssbtz
09-13-2007, 8:52 PM
This has come up a lot on Calguns and the consensus is still out. Until I see Gene, Bill, Kestryll and Lee Law all say X I am going not going to believe it.


Basically Federal Law requires prohibits receipt of a handgun without a gun lock or a "secure gun storage or safety device."

Unfortunately a "secure gun storage or safety device." is never defined by the BATFE.


CA law mandates a NEW CA certified gun lock to accompany all handgun sales unless the purchaser has a Gun Safe and fills out the safe affidavit.


If you were to use the Gun Safe Affidavit your safe would have to satisfy both the state and federal requirements.

Since the BATFE has never defined a safe, thus the requirements are unknown, most gun stores do not want to chance it because the BATFE is known for screwing FFLS over stuff like this.

The SoCal Gunner
09-13-2007, 8:59 PM
I've had a seller provide me with a CA approved lock, new with no receipt, with the transfer and the dealer was ok with it. I think they listed the lock on the papers that were being filled out.

hoffmang
09-13-2007, 9:26 PM
This has come up a lot on Calguns and the consensus is still out. Until I see Gene, Bill, Kestryll and Lee Law all say X I am going not going to believe it.


Basically Federal Law requires prohibits receipt of a handgun without a gun lock or a "secure gun storage or safety device."

Unfortunately a "secure gun storage or safety device." is never defined by the BATFE.


CA law mandates a NEW CA certified gun lock to accompany all handgun sales unless the purchaser has a Gun Safe and fills out the safe affidavit.


If you were to use the Gun Safe Affidavit your safe would have to satisfy both the state and federal requirements.

Since the BATFE has never defined a safe, thus the requirements are unknown, most gun stores do not want to chance it because the BATFE is known for screwing FFLS over stuff like this.

I admit that I haven't spent the cycles on this to figure out what the right answer is. I know that Federal law requires that you deliver a lock with a handgun and I'm pretty confident that the CA safe affidavit doesn't suffice for Federal law.

-Gene

xenophobe
09-13-2007, 10:20 PM
I admit that I haven't spent the cycles on this to figure out what the right answer is. I know that Federal law requires that you deliver a lock with a handgun and I'm pretty confident that the CA safe affidavit doesn't suffice for Federal law.

That is correct. BATFE does not consider the CA Safe Affidavit as acceptable.

CSDGuy
09-13-2007, 10:43 PM
From what I understand, the Feds haven't created any regulations defining what "secure gun storage or safety device" is, so the lock is the only acceptable defined means of securing a handgun... at the time of the transfer.

EOD Guy
09-14-2007, 11:42 AM
From what I understand, the Feds haven't created any regulations defining what "secure gun storage or safety device" is, so the lock is the only acceptable defined means of securing a handgun... at the time of the transfer.

Congress defined the term when they wrote the law. Here it is out of Title 18 of the US Code:

TITLE 18 > PART I > CHAPTER 44 > § 921Prev | Next § 921. Definitions

(a) As used in this chapter—

(34) The term “secure gun storage or safety device” means—

(A) a device that, when installed on a firearm, is designed to prevent the firearm from being operated without first deactivating the device;

(B) a device incorporated into the design of the firearm that is designed to prevent the operation of the firearm by anyone not having access to the device; or

(C) a safe, gun safe, gun case, lock box, or other device that is designed to be or can be used to store a firearm and that is designed to be unlocked only by means of a key, a combination, or other similar means.

EOD Guy
09-14-2007, 11:47 AM
This has come up a lot on Calguns and the consensus is still out. Until I see Gene, Bill, Kestryll and Lee Law all say X I am going not going to believe it.


Basically Federal Law requires prohibits receipt of a handgun without a gun lock or a "secure gun storage or safety device."

Where does it say that? I'm not trying to be a smart a** but all I can find is 18 USC 923(d)(1)(G) which requires a dealer to have them on hand. Nothing there says the buyer of a handgun actually has to purchase one. Edited to Add: OK, I found it. It is in 18 USC 922(z).

Unfortunately a "secure gun storage or safety device." is never defined by the BATFE.

BATF does not have to define the term. Congress did when they wrote the law. (See my post above). BATF will likely adopt the definition in 27CFR, word-for-word out of 18 USC.


CA law mandates a NEW CA certified gun lock to accompany all handgun sales unless the purchaser has a Gun Safe and fills out the safe affidavit.


If you were to use the Gun Safe Affidavit your safe would have to satisfy both the state and federal requirements.

Since the BATFE has never defined a safe, thus the requirements are unknown, most gun stores do not want to chance it because the BATFE is known for screwing FFLS over stuff like this.

Right now, under Federal law, a safe is a safe. There are no requirements other that it be lockable. If the safe meets California requirements, it also meets the Federal just in being a safe.

Dr. Peter Venkman
09-14-2007, 1:19 PM
Have someone you know write out "Gun Lock - $5" on a piece of paper.

You now have a gun lock and receipt purchased within 30 days permanently.

Glock22Fan
09-14-2007, 1:22 PM
When I transferred several guns over from my B.I.L, the dealer told me that he needed a lock receipt not more than 30 days old. However, he said, the same lock receipt would do for each and every gun being transferred, so one lock could be used for dozens of guns, as long as they were all transferred within 30 days of buying the lock. So, he sold me one lock and transferred all the guns.

That was before the law changed, but I don't think it's any different now in this regard. Edited. However, the next poster disagrees, and may well be correct.
P.S., I did offer to sell him, and then buy back, for ten cents, one of my collection of locks still in their maker's packaging, but he wouldn't play along with that as he said those locks were no longer approved.

It's one big scam, folks.

CSACANNONEER
09-14-2007, 1:24 PM
Have someone you know write out "Gun Lock - $5" on a piece of paper.

You now have a gun lock and receipt purchased within 30 days permanently.

That will pacify California law but not the new Federal law! Now every FFL in the country is required to make sure that a lock goes with each new handgun purchased!

Librarian
09-14-2007, 1:56 PM
That will pacify California law but not the new Federal law! Now every FFL in the country is required to make sure that a lock goes with each new handgun purchased!

... until BATFE provides regs that describe how they will accept a safe, according to the requirements of 18 USC 921(a)(34)(C), as posted by EODGuy up-thread.

guns_and_labs
09-14-2007, 2:37 PM
I guess I just won't buy any guns until this all gets sorted out. That seems the prudent thing to do. I trust that the authorities will figure out some sensible regulation in this area, for the children's sake if for no other reason.






Bwa-ha-ha. Right.

I think I just hurt myself laughing.

pnkssbtz
09-14-2007, 2:51 PM
... until BATFE provides regs that describe how they will accept a safe, according to the requirements of 18 USC 921(a)(34)(C), as posted by EODGuy up-thread.

What he said!

CavTrooper
09-14-2007, 3:21 PM
Every new gun Ive ever purchased has come with a lock, do these locks not come with new firearms purchased in CA?

jmlivingston
09-14-2007, 3:48 PM
Here is the pertinent legislation, copied from http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_sec_18_00000922----000-.html. It's Title 18 Chapter 44 Section 922. I'll take a stab at deciphering it.



(z) Secure Gun Storage or Safety Device.—

(1) In general.— Except as provided under paragraph (2), it shall be unlawful
for any licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, or licensed dealer to sell,
deliver, or transfer any handgun to any person other than any person
licensed under this chapter, unless the transferee is provided with a
secure gun storage or safety device (as defined in section 921 (a)(34)) for that handgun.


Hmm.... Other than any person licensed under this chapter. Interesting, as this chapter (Chapter 44) includes the licensing for 03 C&R FFL. I think we 03'rs here in CA just got another use for our license! :D We can still rely on a safe affidavit for all handgun purchases according to this. Now just have to convince our retailers, which might be easier said than done.

The next highlighted phrase says "unless the transferee is provided with". I understand this to mean any licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, or licensed dealer must do the providing.



(2) Exceptions.— Paragraph (1) shall not apply to—

(A) (i) the manufacture for, transfer to, or possession by, the United States,
a department or agency of the United States, a State, or a department,
agency, or political subdivision of a State, of a handgun; or
(ii) the transfer to, or possession by, a law enforcement officer employed
by an entity referred to in clause (i) of a handgun for law enforcement
purposes (whether on or off duty); or
(B) the transfer to, or possession by, a rail police officer employed by a rail
carrier and certified or commissioned as a police officer under the laws of
a State of a handgun for purposes of law enforcement (whether on or
off duty);

(C) the transfer to any person of a handgun listed as a curio or relic by the Secretary pursuant to section 921 (a)(13); or

(D) the transfer to any person of a handgun for which a secure gun storage
or safety device is temporarily unavailable for the reasons described in
the exceptions stated in section 923 (e), if the licensed manufacturer,
licensed importer, or licensed dealer delivers to the transferee within 10
calendar days from the date of the delivery of the handgun to the
transferee a secure gun storage or safety device for the handgun.



Note that a CA safe affidavit should be just fine for a C&R handgun, whether or not the purchaser (transferee) has an 03FFL or not.

Any comments, agreements, or disagreements with my interpretation?

John

EOD Guy
09-14-2007, 6:36 PM
Every new gun Ive ever purchased has come with a lock, do these locks not come with new firearms purchased in CA?

As long as they also meet the California standards. A California dealer cannot legally give you a noncompliant lock.

I have seen dealers take California compliant locks out of the cases and tell the customer that they were not approved for California. Then they would try and sell the customer another lock. They also have a free lock to sell to another customer.