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ETD1010
09-12-2007, 3:54 PM
http://feinstein.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=NewsRoom.PressReleases&ContentRecord_id=f69317af-96e2-8b78-3e01-8edcf38e25db&Region_id=&Issue_id=

She says it will have "no impact on law-abiding citizens" NONE? What about price increase? Fear of losing our shell casings at the range? The fact that no manufacturer (or little) will produce guns for California? That's a HUGE effect....


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Not to mention that this bill will do NOTHING to prevent crime. . . :mad:

Crazed_SS
09-12-2007, 4:39 PM
Couple things...

Why should prices increase? Did prices increase when they enacted the CLI and Magazine Disconnect requirement?
Why do you think manufacturers will stop selling guns here? They already have 1000+ models certified for sale. They can simply keep selling those models.

Also, I doubt anyone plans on buying a gun with microstamping (assuming manufacturers even make them) so the shell casing thing is a moot point.

I think a lot of people are confused about the microstamping requirement.. in fact, I got this email from the NRA today and it said, "The manufacture, sale, and transfer of handguns that do not imprint their identifying information on a cartridge case would be a crime." .. That's not necessarily true. FFLs and citizens will still be able to buy and sell guns without microstamping.


I'd like to see this bill defeated on principle, but I almost agree with Feinstien there. I really dont see how this will effect me all that much. So I can get certain models of handguns.. Oh Well.. I already cant get certain models because of the ridiculous requirments already in place. Nothing much is changing IMO.

CavTrooper
09-12-2007, 4:45 PM
Im kinda confused...
If they are going to require handguns to have this microstamping for "safety" reasons, why would they continue to allow handguns without the microstamping to be sold after the law takes effect? I understand there is already a "safe list", but if there are new requirements for a handgun to be "safe" why would the "unsafe" handguns still be permitted for sale?
I just dont get it.

MrTuffPaws
09-12-2007, 4:47 PM
Couple things...

Why should prices increase? Did prices increase when they enacted the CLI and Magazine Disconnect requirement?
Why do you think manufacturers will stop selling guns here? They already have 1000+ models certified for sale. They can simply keep selling those models.

Also, I doubt anyone plans on buying a gun with microstamping (assuming manufacturers even make them) so the shell casing thing is a moot point.

I think a lot of people are confused about the microstamping requirement.. in fact, I got this email from the NRA today and it said, "The manufacture, sale, and transfer of handguns that do not imprint their identifying information on a cartridge case would be a crime." .. That's not necessarily true. FFLs and citizens will still be able to buy and sell guns without microstamping.


I'd like to see this bill defeated on principle, but I almost agree with Feinstien there. I really dont see how this will effect me all that much. So I can get certain models of handguns.. Oh Well.. I already cant get certain models because of the ridiculous requirments already in place. Nothing much is changing IMO.

While you're at it, can you put the rest of your rights in an envelope and mail them to me.

Crazed_SS
09-12-2007, 4:55 PM
Great comeback.. Do you have anything to actually add? Did I state something wrong in my post?

Please tell me how this microstamping requirement will effect me in actual practice. Once again, I understand I wont be able to get certain handguns, but that's already the case. I wanted a Taurus 1911, but guess what, it cant be certified. Oh well, I bought a Springfield.

Realistically, how will microstamping really effect anything?

carsonwales
09-12-2007, 5:13 PM
Great comeback.. Do you have anything to actually add? Did I state something wrong in my post?

Please tell me how this microstamping requirement will effect me in actual practice. Once again, I understand I wont be able to get certain handguns, but that's already the case. I wanted a Taurus 1911, but guess what, it cant be certified. Oh well, I bought a Springfield.

Realistically, how will microstamping really effect anything?

I will give you an example:

Right now the Springfield XD45 is produced in 3 colors: Black, FDE, and FG. Only the Black XD45 is available in California.

Why? Because Springfield is sick of the California Lawmakers and thinks that California's market isn't worth the trouble or risk. How do I know this? Because I talked to Springfield about it.

What else did Springfield say? They told me that if Micro Stamping becomes a reality they will scratch California completely off the list for any new models developed by Springfield. Once again...its not worth the trouble.

This is a quote from the Springfield Rep: "You people should stop electing *&^% lawmakers to your government."

I would wager that almost ALL manufacturers say screw it. Why would they retool their assembly lines and add yet another hurdle to the already burdensome and onerous process just to sell a new model in California?

This law will have zero effect on crime, and will impede the lawful commerce of lawful product, and all of us will feel the bite of this law if and when it comes to pass.

Librarian
09-12-2007, 5:22 PM
Great comeback.. Do you have anything to actually add? Did I state something wrong in my post?

Please tell me how this microstamping requirement will effect me in actual practice. Once again, I understand I wont be able to get certain handguns, but that's already the case. I wanted a Taurus 1911, but guess what, it cant be certified. Oh well, I bought a Springfield.

Realistically, how will microstamping really effect anything?
It's another validation of the grabber's desire to sort guns into 'good' and 'bad'.

Success here will lead to more support nationally - DiFi is already proposing a bill, and I believe Rhode Island is considering one.

It is another 'line the pockets' result of one company lobbying for government to adopt its technology.

It inflates the Brady Bunch's opinions of themselves, and may revive them - success leading to more members, more $.

It validates the political judgement of cities, who hire police chiefs who will go on record as supporting technologically and practically ineffective bills instead of chiefs who believe in actually fighting crime.

Fight it on principle, please, even if you don't feel this particular piece of insanity will have direct impact on you.

Centurion_D
09-12-2007, 5:24 PM
I will also have to add the fact that this is not a case of gun control..it's a case of flat out gun PROHIBITION! The anti's know if the just keep piling on more and more laws restricting manufacture then eventually gun companies will say adios to the PRK! Please show me any state or country that uses this technology. No one does because it's never been used outside a laboratory. Last but not least who is the author of this bill? If that doest make you wake and smell the coffee then nothing will.

EastBayRidge
09-12-2007, 5:26 PM
It's a silly, burdensome law that runs the real risk of depriving Californians of the latest advances in handgun technology, per carsonwales above.

Just another one in the "death by a thousand cuts" that are CA gun laws - individually, they may not have a huge effect and can be seen as "reasonable" (if ineffective) - taken together, they'll bleed you dry.

Prc329
09-12-2007, 5:38 PM
Couple things...

Why should prices increase? Did prices increase when they enacted the CLI and Magazine Disconnect requirement?
Why do you think manufacturers will stop selling guns here? They already have 1000+ models certified for sale. They can simply keep selling those models.

Also, I doubt anyone plans on buying a gun with microstamping (assuming manufacturers even make them) so the shell casing thing is a moot point.

I think a lot of people are confused about the microstamping requirement.. in fact, I got this email from the NRA today and it said, "The manufacture, sale, and transfer of handguns that do not imprint their identifying information on a cartridge case would be a crime." .. That's not necessarily true. FFLs and citizens will still be able to buy and sell guns without microstamping.


I'd like to see this bill defeated on principle, but I almost agree with Feinstien there. I really dont see how this will effect me all that much. So I can get certain models of handguns.. Oh Well.. I already cant get certain models because of the ridiculous requirments already in place. Nothing much is changing IMO.

"The manufacture, sale, and transfer of new model handguns that do not imprint their identifying information on a cartridge case would be a crime.". That is what the NRA should have said.

You also have to remember one other thing, the Mag disconnect and chamber indicator already has started to cause manufacturers to not make models for cali. Kimber will not get the desert warrior certified because even though it is another color to the warrior it has to be retested. They flat out told me I will never be able to buy one in CA.

Having this microstamping also forces the manufacturer into a position of mandatory payments to CA since they will not have a real choice if they let the approval lapse. They either have to use microstamping or no longer sell in CA. I have spoken to a couple of reps (springfield is one) that pretty much said I would be SOL for any new springfield model. If the ever make an XD45 sub compact I would never be able to own my dream XD.

The impact on the private citizen would be a back door gun ban in the guise of "safety". Microstamping will be useless in actually stopping or minimizing gun violence it is just a way for the antis to get a win and the government to make a silly attempt at looking like they are doing something besides taking kick backs by the company that created this technology.

rhunter
09-12-2007, 5:47 PM
I saw that lemon of the letter and used it to construct my own Anti 1471, to wit:

Dear Governor Schwarzenegger:

I write to urge you to veto AB 1471, the Crime Gun Identification Act of 2007, which received final passage in the California Legislature yesterday.

In short, AB 1471 represents gun legislation designed to reduce gun ownership and to punish legal gun owners. It will not reduce crime nor save lives and it deserves your opposition. I urge you to save more lives and solve more crimes in California by signing crime reducing legislation, not this pie in the sky bill.

- Roger

Crazed_SS
09-12-2007, 5:53 PM
It's another validation of the grabber's desire to sort guns into 'good' and 'bad'.

Success here will lead to more support nationally - DiFi is already proposing a bill, and I believe Rhode Island is considering one.

It is another 'line the pockets' result of one company lobbying for government to adopt its technology.

It inflates the Brady Bunch's opinions of themselves, and may revive them - success leading to more members, more $.

It validates the political judgement of cities, who hire police chiefs who will go on record as supporting technologically and practically ineffective bills instead of chiefs who believe in actually fighting crime.

Fight it on principle, please, even if you don't feel this particular piece of insanity will have direct impact on you.

This I agree with you 100%. A Microstamping defeat or victory would be more symbolic IMO. Both sides are putting a lot of effort into something that wont make much a difference either way. This isnt like SB23 which was like a dagger in the heart. This is just another cut added to the other 999 we already have.. That's why I said I'm against it on principle, but not really too concerned about it effecting my gun buying/owning.

EDIT: Librarian, Prc329 - The response you got from SA is exactly what I said would happen. SA knows they already have X number of models certified in Cali. They neednt even bother produce a microstamping pistol. Same goes for Glock, Sig, Ruger, Hipoint, Seecamp, and a plethora of other manufacturers. I agree, this is a defacto ban on new handgun models. It's pretty jacked up, but not the end up the world.

Charliegone
09-12-2007, 6:57 PM
This I agree with you 100%. A Microstamping defeat or victory would be more symbolic IMO. Both sides are putting a lot of effort into something that wont make much a difference either way. This isnt like SB23 which was like a dagger in the heart. This is just another cut added to the other 999 we already have.. That's why I said I'm against it on principle, but not really too concerned about it effecting my gun buying/owning.

EDIT: Librarian, Prc329 - The response you got from SA is exactly what I said would happen. SA knows they already have X number of models certified in Cali. They neednt even bother produce a microstamping pistol. Same goes for Glock, Sig, Ruger, Hipoint, Seecamp, and a plethora of other manufacturers. I agree, this is a defacto ban on new handgun models. It's pretty jacked up, but not the end up the world.

True, but sometimes these things can lead to a slippery slope. What's to say next they won't try something else..hell while they are at it, why not?

Centurion_D
09-12-2007, 7:26 PM
True, but sometimes these things can lead to a slippery slope. What's to say next they won't try something else..hell while they are at it, why not?

I'm willing to bet that they are gonna try some stupid shiite with revolvers next..you watch!

dwtt
09-12-2007, 8:03 PM
EDIT: Librarian, Prc329 - The response you got from SA is exactly what I said would happen. SA knows they already have X number of models certified in Cali. They neednt even bother produce a microstamping pistol. Same goes for Glock, Sig, Ruger, Hipoint, Seecamp, and a plethora of other manufacturers. I agree, this is a defacto ban on new handgun models. It's pretty jacked up, but not the end up the world.
Within my or your lifetime the "safe" handgun list will end up reducing the available handguns to just PPT handguns. Eventually the guns on the list will be discontinued by their manufacturers and replaced with new ones. The guns will not be renewed on the list because they would not be made anymore. The microstamp is another way to ensure no new guns will be added to the list. Also, this will someday spread to revolvers, shotguns, and rifles. Think long term and you will see how the microstamping bill is bad.

ETD1010
09-12-2007, 9:52 PM
The impact on the private citizen would be a back door gun ban in the guise of "safety". Microstamping will be useless in actually stopping or minimizing gun violence it is just a way for the antis to get a win and the government to make a silly attempt at looking like they are doing something besides taking kick backs by the company that created this technology.

+1 billion

M. Sage
09-12-2007, 9:54 PM
Within my or your lifetime the "safe" handgun list will end up reducing the available handguns to just PPT handguns. Eventually the guns on the list will be discontinued by their manufacturers and replaced with new ones. The guns will not be renewed on the list because they would not be made anymore. The microstamp is another way to ensure no new guns will be added to the list. Also, this will someday spread to revolvers, shotguns, and rifles. Think long term and you will see how the microstamping bill is bad.

Exactly. Microstamping might not be a short-term threat, but it is a huge threat in the long term.

CCWFacts
09-12-2007, 9:59 PM
This microstamping bill is a very serious threat. If it passes it would be worse than the AWB and everything else.

jdberger
09-12-2007, 10:08 PM
I'm willing to bet that they are gonna try some stupid shiite with revolvers next..you watch!

nope. They'll go back to the microstamped ammo bill. That was a fun one. Present your ID to be swiped and linked to the purchased ammo at the time of purchase. Ammo that didn't have the serial numbered bullets would be illegal. That includes handloaders.

Of course, they'll enact this law because microstamping the cases was ineffective (guns already in circulation, guns that don't eject cases, reticence of manufacturers to "embrace the technology").

You see, SS, the point is never to reduce or solve crime - it's to raise the price of entry into our sub-culture, to deplete our ranks and to make life so unfreakin' unbearable for us gun owners that we decide that it isn't worth the hassle to own guns anymore.

Crazed_SS
09-12-2007, 10:49 PM
You see, SS, the point is never to reduce or solve crime - it's to raise the price of entry into our sub-culture, to deplete our ranks and to make life so unfreakin' unbearable for us gun owners that we decide that it isn't worth the hassle to own guns anymore.

I realize that. No one of this stuff is ever about safety or solving crime.

I just dont get what makes microstamping worse than the CLI/Magazine Disconnect requirement. I mean, everyone loves 1911s and those dont have Magazine Disconnect Safeties. Are people here worried about never getting 1911's again if they fall off the list?

Microstamping is just another stupid requirement that manufacturers will simply ignore.

M. Sage
09-12-2007, 10:57 PM
This would be many more guns that become out of reach as new models, and after they fall off for whatever reason, like a minor re-work that changes the model number/name.

Hell, "many more?" It would be everything not on the list, and everything that falls off.

jdberger
09-12-2007, 11:01 PM
I realize that. No one of this stuff is ever about safety or solving crime.

I just dont get what makes microstamping worse than the CLI/Magazine Disconnect requirement. I mean, everyone loves 1911s and those dont have Magazine Disconnect Safeties. Are people here worried about never getting 1911's again if they fall off the list?

Microstamping is just another stupid requirement that manufacturers will simply ignore.

It's not worse. It sucks equally. And people are worried about never getting 1911s again if they fall off the list. Currently, I have more than I need, but I LOVE custom guns and one of the ways for me to have one made is to buy a base model and send it to a 'smith. Should the supply of those base models dry up, the price will skyrocket, possibly pricing me out of the custom market.

Think it can't happen? Look at the price of a Colt Series '70 (not the new ones) in and out of California. There's a $200 difference. That's a 30% bump in price 'cause it aint on the list.

The same applies to S&W N frames and pre-locks.

It's a bunch of crap and we shouldn't tolerate it. NOT ONE BIT.

We draw the line HERE.

tenpercentfirearms
09-13-2007, 5:01 AM
I realize that. No one of this stuff is ever about safety or solving crime.

I just dont get what makes microstamping worse than the CLI/Magazine Disconnect requirement. I mean, everyone loves 1911s and those dont have Magazine Disconnect Safeties. Are people here worried about never getting 1911's again if they fall off the list?

Microstamping is just another stupid requirement that manufacturers will simply ignore.

How are you not understanding the implications of no new handguns in California? You keep stating the same thing over and over again, "No big deal, we still have the ones we have". What if Glock, Springfield Armory, Taurus, Smith & Wesson or Kahr decide to produce a new line and end the old line?

As soon as the current Glock 22, Springfield Armory XD9201, Taurus 24/7, Smith & Wesson SW40VE, or Kahr CW9 falls off the list by the manufacturer, they will no longer be available for sale by dealers in this state. When the manufacturers do not pay to put their new models through testing, you did just have guns fall off the list and your life most certainly will be changed.

Manufacturers are constantly changing model numbers and adding new guns to the list because it forces Californians to hold onto an old class of guns because they are hard to sell except by PPT and buy the new class of guns, making the manufacturers and retailers big time money. The manufacturers and big time retail operations love the list and what it does for new gun sales.

Add in the microstamping to the list and they might change their tune. Some of them might say screw CA all together and you think that would be the status quo? You don't see how adding a requirement that is currently not readily available unlike magazine disconnects and chamber indicators is not different? You don't see how many of these gun manufacturers are not going to pursue this pipe dream technology? They might as well say all new handguns must fire a proton beam.

You are crazed.

Crazed_SS
09-13-2007, 5:17 AM
How are you not understanding the implications of no new handguns in California? You keep stating the same thing over and over again, "No big deal, we still have the ones we have". What if Glock, Springfield Armory, Taurus, Smith & Wesson or Kahr decide to produce a new line and end the old line?



What if Glock, Springfield Armory, Taurus, Smith & Wesson or Kahr decide to produce a new line and end the old line?

Well we'd be screwed with or without microstamping because most Glock, Springfield Armory, Taurus, Smith & Wesson or Kahr guns dont have both a CLI and magazine disconnect safety. That's the point I'm trying to make here. Im not saying Microstamping is OK.. It just isnt that big of deal to me because we're already barred from getting many new models because of the requirements already in place.

As soon as the current Glock 22, Springfield Armory XD9201, Taurus 24/7, Smith & Wesson SW40VE, or Kahr CW9 falls off the list by the manufacturer, they will no longer be available for sale by dealers in this state. When the manufacturers do not pay to put their new models through testing, you did just have guns fall off the list and your life most certainly will be changed.

How is this any different than what we've been dealing with for years now?

Add in the microstamping to the list and they might change their tune. Some of them might say screw CA all together and you think that would be the status quo? You don't see how adding a requirement that is currently not readily available unlike magazine disconnects and chamber indicators is not different? You don't see how many of these gun manufacturers are not going to pursue this pipe dream technology? They might as well say all new handguns must fire a proton beam.

If manufacturers are willing to pay an extortion fee for every single pistol they want sold here, I doubt they'd abandon CA over microstamping, especially since they dont even have to take any action in this case.

Prc329
09-13-2007, 6:25 AM
If manufacturers are willing to pay an extortion fee for every single pistol they want sold here, I doubt they'd abandon CA over microstamping, especially since they dont even have to take any action in this case.

This bill gives the manufacturers one more reason to consider not paying it. We are already seeing this happen before CLI and Mag disconnects (Kimber and the Desert Warrior, SA with the diffrent color XDs), it will just get worse.

With a mag disconnect they could easily design one as well as say the XD already has a CLI. Some Smith models already have a Mag disconnect. Microstamping would cause a manufacturer to have to completely retool and buy new machines. This means they are paying the extortion fee twice.

I know I certainly would not sell to CA anymore if that happened.

Does anyone know if the manufacturer will have to pay a royalty fee to the inventor of microstamping?

Prc329
09-13-2007, 6:31 AM
What you are saying is akin to California forcing Toyota to keep making the 1999 Camary to be able to sell in this state even though the 2007 model is so much better and safer. Why would any maker keep an old line running for a gun that sees very little sales.

If Glock came out with a Glock 54A with all sorts of bells and whistles and a biometric system that only allowed the owner of the gun to fire it, Cali would be left out. Say if Springfield made an XD45A and it was selling like hotcakes in the other 49 states, why in there right mind would they keep making the XD45 for cali when that manufacturing capacity would be put to better se keeping up with demand for the new gun?

I sure as hell wouldn't. Especially since I would have to design a cali specific unit, pay the fee to the state, buy microstamping equipment, probably pay a royalty fee for the technology, etc, ect, ect. I have a feeling my lawyers would say walk away.

concentric
09-13-2007, 7:01 AM
Does California have any requirement to recertify handguns that are already on the list when they expire? They are allowing those models to be renewed at present, it's not a legal right. They can just as easily let them all expire and not renew them.

Corbin Dallas
09-13-2007, 7:03 AM
< fade in 10 years to the future.... >

Fox 6 news reports the suspect in the Dennys shooting over the weekend has been arrested in part due to the microstamping law put into effect back in 2007. The suspect claims he had nothing to do with the shooting and was actually out of town during the time of the shooting, but police recovered bullet cases that traced back to the suspects weapon.

... a few months later...

The defendant in the Denny's shooting last May has been found guilty of murder and will be sentenced in November. He still affirms he is innocent and says the evidence is incorrect. His lawyer presented to the jury that the real suspect must have gathered cases from the local shooting range, sorted them by the microstamp number and left them at the scene of the crime. Police say that is not possible because the microstamp is not visible to the naked eye. Even though witnesses could not identify the suspect in a line up and the suspect has receipts and affidavits to his where-abouts during the shooting, the jury did not believe him and found him guilty of murder.

... now your weather...

Prc329
09-13-2007, 7:18 AM
Does California have any requirement to recertify handguns that are already on the list when they expire? They are allowing those models to be renewed at present, it's not a legal right. They can just as easily let them all expire and not renew them.

If I remember correctly they just have to pay the extortion fee to keep previously listed guns listed. Any new models would have to be submitted to testing.

SgtBulldog
09-13-2007, 7:33 AM
Are people here worried about never getting 1911's again if they fall off the list?

Yes.

Crazed_SS
09-13-2007, 7:48 AM
oh well guess we better all start stocking up now.. ;-) .. cause stuff like this microstamping will keep coming

carsonwales
09-13-2007, 8:09 AM
oh well guess we better all start stocking up now.. ;-) .. cause stuff like this microstamping will keep coming

And if your son or the son of someone else grows up and wishes to purchase a gun he will SOL...because he couldn't stock up....

You have made our point perfectly

Librarian
09-13-2007, 10:15 AM
Does California have any requirement to recertify handguns that are already on the list when they expire? They are allowing those models to be renewed at present, it's not a legal right. They can just as easily let them all expire and not renew them.
Just to expand on PRC329's answer ...

Once a gun is tested and added to the roster, it stays there so long as the manufacturer pays the $200 annual fee. No retesting is required.

Guns on the Roster, so far, have been exempted from new requirements. That is not required but is a part of the bills which have made changes. For example, AB 1471 says (7) Commencing January 1, 2010, for all semiautomatic pistols that
are not already listed on the roster pursuant to Section 12131,IF the DOJ suspects that guns as tested are not the same as guns as sold, they can grab commercial copies and retest; at that time, if the retested copies fail, the gun can be dropped from the Roster.

A handgun dropped from the roster for any reason cannot be sold by a CA FFL out of dealer stock; private party transfer (PPT) is OK.

So far, a handgun submitted for testing for inclusion on the Roster must meet the statutory requirements in effect when the handgun is first submitted. That is, a handgun submitted for testing on December 31, 2005 needed only one of the magazine disconnect and loaded chamber indicator, because the requirement for both was not in effect until the next day. The actual date it is added to the Roster (apparently) governs only when it may begin to be sold and when the next year's fee must be paid.

The way the law reads, a gun that WAS on the Roster, dropped off, and now is resubmitted, must meet current legal requirements. If Springfield let their MilSpec 1911 drop off, and applied next January to get it back on, it would need the magazine disconnect and the loaded chamber indicator to qualify.

Crazed_SS
09-13-2007, 10:30 AM
Hence the reason I'm currently 6 days into the wait for a new SA MC Operator 1911. :)

AYEAREFIFTEEN
09-13-2007, 11:03 AM
< fade in 10 years to the future.... >

Fox 6 news reports the suspect in the Dennys shooting over the weekend has been arrested in part due to the microstamping law put into effect back in 2007. The suspect claims he had nothing to do with the shooting and was actually out of town during the time of the shooting, but police recovered bullet cases that traced back to the suspects weapon.

... a few months later...

The defendant in the Denny's shooting last May has been found guilty of murder and will be sentenced in November. He still affirms he is innocent and says the evidence is incorrect. His lawyer presented to the jury that the real suspect must have gathered cases from the local shooting range, sorted them by the microstamp number and left them at the scene of the crime. Police say that is not possible because the microstamp is not visible to the naked eye. Even though witnesses could not identify the suspect in a line up and the suspect has receipts and affidavits to his where-abouts during the shooting, the jury did not believe him and found him guilty of murder.

... now your weather...

Excellent point.

What do we do about a criminal that knows enough not to leave cases behind or in this example collects cases from known "microstamped equiped" weapons and uses the cases to throw off investigators. How many criminals are capable of buying weapons legally or dumb enough to used a handgun registered to their name in a crime?

CalNRA
09-13-2007, 11:10 AM
Great comeback.. Do you have anything to actually add? Did I state something wrong in my post?

Please tell me how this microstamping requirement will effect me in actual practice. Once again, I understand I wont be able to get certain handguns, but that's already the case. I wanted a Taurus 1911, but guess what, it cant be certified. Oh well, I bought a Springfield.

Realistically, how will microstamping really effect anything?

you do realize that there is a list composed of dozens of pages called "Dropped Guns", right?:rolleyes:

guns will drop off the list one by one, it's just a matter of time before they drop off and the only choices we get are some uber-safe guns that we can't use at the range. You however seem pretty complacent, I admire you ability to remain so optimistic in a time like this.:mad:

the fact is, you kids may not be able to buy a new Springfield out of an FFL when he/she grows up. But that's so far down the road why worry about it, right?

It's amazing to hear a person as well reasoned and active as you to be talking in this tone.

dfletcher
09-13-2007, 11:11 AM
I'm willing to bet that they are gonna try some stupid shiite with revolvers next..you watch!

Of course you mean along the lines of:

1) Microstamping solves crimes and contributes to public safety.
2) Revolvers do not have microstamping and do not leave casings behind.
3) Revolvers contribute to crime and compromise public safety and should be
banned.

I guess we should never say never. But the more likely approach is something that IDs the bullet since obviously a revolver leaves that behind. Who knows how the hell that could be done, but some one will try I suppose.

If microstamping becomes law it will become only a matter of time before firing pins and barrels will have some sort of restriction on them - you'll see the "Not for Sale in CA" logo all over Brownells & Midway. It will become a crime to own a gun which, having been produced with microstamping, no longer has the capability through use or parts change. Opens a whole can of worms and is of course fundamentally wrong.

Prc329
09-13-2007, 11:12 AM
Here is another senario.

A criminal burglarizes a house a steals a XD45MS (for microstamp) and proceeds to use the gun to kill someone with it leaving the shells that trace back to Innocent gun owner A (IGO). Now the IGO is in europe for a month and has no idea he was burglarized. Upon returning to the US he finds out and when the cops come they arrest him for murder instead of believing him abut the stolen gun. What happens then?

Hey, as wild as some of that may sound, it could happen with a high profile case during an election year.

Crazed_SS
09-13-2007, 2:26 PM
you do realize that there is a list composed of dozens of pages called "Dropped Guns", right?:rolleyes:

guns will drop off the list one by one, it's just a matter of time before they drop off and the only choices we get are some uber-safe guns that we can't use at the range. You however seem pretty complacent, I admire you ability to remain so optimistic in a time like this.:mad:

the fact is, you kids may not be able to buy a new Springfield out of an FFL when he/she grows up. But that's so far down the road why worry about it, right?

It's amazing to hear a person as well reasoned and active as you to be talking in this tone.

Yea.. you guys are right. I guess I am looking at it from a pretty short term point of view. I think I'm just becoming a little apathetic with CA gun stuff lately. Maybe Ill go make some phone calls.. Im sorry to have despaired. :(

ruey220
09-13-2007, 6:41 PM
one thing we need to tell these people and letting them know the solution is full of flaws is that the firing pin that makes the microstamp can easily be covered with a piece of small solder so the imprint will no longer be accurate to that pistol...let's see them try to enforce this law by checking the microscopic engraving on the firing pin. it can also be smoothed out with a decent sander. if they're trying to catch so called would be criminals who would use guns that cannot be traced, what's stopping them from doing something like that?

ruey220
09-13-2007, 6:46 PM
after reading this thing about microstamping, it looks like the guy who owns the patent may have a reason to be trying to get this passed to make some easy bucks.

cadurand
09-13-2007, 7:20 PM
Great comeback.. Do you have anything to actually add? Did I state something wrong in my post?

Please tell me how this microstamping requirement will effect me in actual practice. Once again, I understand I wont be able to get certain handguns, but that's already the case. I wanted a Taurus 1911, but guess what, it cant be certified. Oh well, I bought a Springfield.

Realistically, how will microstamping really effect anything?Ok, how about limited, more so than today, choice of pistols.

Anything new made after 2010 will require microstamping or it won't be sold in California. That could possible effect your choices, right? I know you mentioned wanting a Taurus but had to go with a Springfield. Imagine if the year was 2010 and Springfield decided not to build microstamping technology into their design? No pistol for you.

There are already plenty of pistols I would like to purchase but can't because they aren't on the "safe list" of pistols in California.

Eventually the list will get shorter and shorter once gun makers decide not to do business in California with the approved safe list, CLI, Mag Disconnect, and now microstamping. It could happen.

And it's not even just that. The whole thought of microstamping is crazy. It's flawed technology that won't work in real life. A criminal will just file off the numbers, duh. I'm sure this will be illegal but again, duh, we're dealing with criminals here. Why does it have to be "micro" anyhow? Am I not allowed to see these magic stamps on my shell cases?

Gun laws only inconvenience law abiding gun owners. Criminals don't care.

The bottom line is sometimes you don't know the impact of a law until AFTER it goes into effect and by then it could be too late to do anything about it.

carsonwales
09-13-2007, 8:00 PM
Yea.. you guys are right. I guess I am looking at it from a pretty short term point of view. I think I'm just becoming a little apathetic with CA gun stuff lately. Maybe Ill go make some phone calls.. Im sorry to have despaired. :(

You sir are worthy.

Your debate is welcome, your input is valued.

CW

ruey220
09-13-2007, 9:10 PM
i think if they know that the criminals would naturally file off the digits, they are obviously hoping someone commits a crime and forgets or doesn't know there's a microstamp on the ejected shells. This is entrapment.

FatKatMatt
09-13-2007, 9:54 PM
Yeah, like this won't do anything to us law-abiding citizens

Manufacturers are already sick of having to deal with the BS California laws, and as others have said yet another hurdle will likely keep them away completely. A lot of people will be dissauded from buying handguns because of this, and no new models will be coming in since manufacturers don't want to deal with all the crap.

In addition, what's to stop a criminal from filing off the microstamping or just picking up someone else shell casings and sprinkling them around their crime scene?

This is just a part of the hoplophobe's "slow incrementalism" strategy. If this goes through, all new handguns are banned. That's not too bad now, since we have a nice amount on the list; but when the companies come out with a new model and drop the old one, we're all SOL. After a couple decades there probably won't be any guns left on the list, and once all the pistols are gone the antis can start targeting the SA revolvers, the rifles and the shotguns. Much more nefarious in the long run than it is now.

Yet another piece of "common sense" garbage that is just veiled gun grabbing. Supreme idiocy.

gazzavc
09-13-2007, 10:14 PM
What its going to take is the gun manufacturers not selling anything to CA. Not to the Police, Sheriff's , Highway Patrol. Nada. Nothing. Gornischt !!!

Also ammo manufacturers do the same thing. How long could LE go without weapons, ammo and spares? I reckon it could bring CA to its knees as far as this idiocy is concerned.

Lets fight fire with fire. Start talking to the makers and builders and convince them that a total boycott of weapons and ammo is the only way to stop this nonsense once and for all.

Gaz

SKG19
09-14-2007, 12:56 PM
Here are the patents, you can go to http://www.uspto.gov and search the patent database to check them out.

1 7,204,419 Method and apparatus for reading firearm microstamping
2 7,111,423 Method and apparatus for reading firearm microstamping
3 6,886,284 Firearm microstamping and micromarking insert for stamping a firearm identification code and serial number into cartridge shell casings and projectiles
4 6,833,911 Method and apparatus for reading firearm microstamping

Sure doesn't look like a very deep mark...nothing a little 600 grit polishing compound couldn't get through. The other thing unless they make the firing pin from something extremely hard it probably would only take a few thousand rounds to wear the marking off. The problem with hard material is they're brittle and you probably don't want to make firing pins from brittle materials.

gordoe
09-14-2007, 3:42 PM
people that know nothing about guns make stupid gun laws. also i hate how our governor made his carrer promoting "assault" weapons in his movies and yet hasn't done anything to lift the ban on "assault" weapons that will take 10 days to get with a background check and be under your name, but people with malicious intentions can get withing 2-4 hours in the street if you have the right connections.

CalNRA
09-14-2007, 3:47 PM
Yea.. you guys are right. I guess I am looking at it from a pretty short term point of view. I think I'm just becoming a little apathetic with CA gun stuff lately. Maybe Ill go make some phone calls.. Im sorry to have despaired. :(

Californians love talking on the phone. Just think, it still beats talking to your mother-in-law(if you have one) :p

didn't mean to sound condescending, if I came across that way. Last thing we need is a SS lost to incrementalism!!!:D

Glock22Fan
09-14-2007, 4:55 PM
This is incrementalism (death by 1,000 cuts).

In turn, they plan to get rid of (already have got rid of) assault weapons, high powered firearms, sniper weapons, Saturday Night Specials, unsafe guns, guns without mag disconnects, guns without loaded chamber indicators, guns that hold more than 10 cartridges, guns without microstamping, semi-automatic firearms, guns that look ugly, guns that don't have a sporting use, guns that don't have a "militia" application, etc. etc. etc. Anyone see a pattern here?

As "approved guns" fall off the list, and cease getting manufactured, we could be left with just a few revolvers. Then they will think of a reason to get rid of those (because they don't leave brass behind, maybe? Or because there are only ten gun owners still holding out, so clearly there isn't a need?).

This is why it behooves us to resist all and every such move.

And yes, you people who talk with the manufacturers; Ask them to follow Barrett's example, and stop selling anything to California that we, the citizens, aren't allowed to buy. And email Barrett's and praise their example.