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View Full Version : How to react if Microstamping becomes law?


Rivers
09-08-2007, 12:42 PM
IF this happens, and I really hope that it doesn't, we need to consider what we can do to get it repealed. Keep in mind that the microstamping movement is happening is a few states as well as in Congress. We are likely to eventually have to make a stand so thinking about this now is appropriate. Here are some ideas, and please contribute your own:

1. All manufacturers and distributors of firearms and ammunition should refuse to sell or service any law enforcement, municipality or agency in ANY state with microstamping laws. It makes no difference whether the transaction is direct or indirect. This would also require that manufacturers and distributors contractually require that any goods sold to clients in other states would not be resold or transferred to any state, municipality or agency in a "microstamp" state. Stop the "straw purchase" like federal gun laws do. If CA can pressure our favorite distributors and gun supplies to stop shipping to various CA cities like San Francisco and Los Angeles, why not use that same tactic against them - just on a statewide scale?

2. Should any manufacturer or distributor continue to do business with any law enforcement, municipality or agency in such state, that company should be boycotted by its nationwide customer base.

This would do a few things.

First, it puts immediate financial pressure on the company to cease enabling the state and its politicians who have placed this microstamping burden on its citizens.

Second, it hits the state, the politicians and the voters right where they are weakest. They want gun control, then let them have it. I'm betting that the citizens can go without ammo resupply longer than the state and its agencies can.

Third, a nationwide boycott would surely get media coverage. How would the media tell the story about its own city and state being crippled because it couldn't arm itself thanks to the liberal politicians going too far? Would it tell the story of the citizens who have embraced the 2A and kept themselves adequately armed? How would your anti-gun neighbors feel knowing that the bad guys haven't gone on vacation? Do they still have confidence that the state can keep them safe while they vote to weaken their own ability to defend themselves? (Not that they would stand up to defend themselves, just a hypothetical question.)

The voters need to wake up to the fact that feel-good laws and ideology are great in theory but don't live up to the hype. We live in a real world with real successes and real failures. As much as the Brady Bunch wants to eradicate guns from our lives, if that were to truly happen, ONLY the criminals would be armed. Even the Brady followers need some good guys armed and willing to stand up for them as they flock together.

I do need to make an apology for likely having made LEO a victim in this posting. I certainly don't want to do anything that would make their jobs any more difficult or encourage any disrespect for the great work they often do. However, when the chiefs and sheriffs and mayors stand up to support such damaging legislation as microstamping, and the SHTF, LEO need to be aware of which side of the fan you're standing on. Did the LEO unions speak up against this? No. Should they have taken a position against this? That's for the union members to decide.

CavTrooper
09-08-2007, 1:07 PM
Does the new microstamping bill have a police exemption? Im willing to bet it does, and if thats the case than we need to exploit that fact. Why should the criminals and police be able to get away with murder (by not complying with the law) and the avaerage law abiding Joe Citizen cant even buy a non-compliant pistol?
Manufactures and dealers need to STOP selling and servicing CA LEAs, NOW! This stuff is out of hand and the "powers that be" need to feel the wrath. Manufactures need to be bombarded with emails, letters and telephone calls. Local shops need to be informed as well, If they sell to and service LEAs or LEOs than we will take our buisness elsewhere.
Extreme? Yeah, so. No one wins anything playing defense. If we are truly commited to changing the laws then we need to take drastic actions.

As far as buying ammo is concerned, I have a good line on where to buy (internet sales) and the guy WILL ship to CA, let me know if you want the info.
Cant help with guns though, Federal laws and all.:mad:

dustoff31
09-08-2007, 1:08 PM
Whether it passes or not, the clown that introduced this measure and all co-sponsors should be recalled. Even if the recall doesn't succeed, I think it would send a much stronger message than just complaining about it.

Not long ago some space case state legislator here introduced a bill to outlaw the Minute Men. She wasn't recalled ultimately, but I'll bet you money she never does anything like that again.

Patriot
09-08-2007, 2:18 PM
How about a legal challenge based on its immateriality to the nominal "unsafe handgun" focus of Section 12126?

hoffmang
09-08-2007, 2:23 PM
The only grounds I can think of that could be interesting are whether a state can use legislation to create a defacto monopoly in Interstate Commerce. Unfortunately some of my initial reading on this in the recent past is that it can.

-Gene

bwiese
09-08-2007, 2:54 PM
We also have the whole issue of replacement part control mangled at the state level quite possibly in conflict with the Magnusson-Moss Warranty Act and Berkey v. Kodak issues over control of replacement parts market in that it essentially makes the original gun manufacturer the sole issuer of replacement warranty parts (and possibly, to a lesser extent, services) if the gun is to be resold via non-PPT methods in California.

This applies not only to microstamping issues but the whole 'safe handgun' laws in 12125PC et seq.

JawBone
09-08-2007, 2:55 PM
Yes, I could see a challenge based on the Dormant Commerce Clause (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dormant_Commerce_Clause) doctrine, but neither Scalia or Thomas recognize it. Not sure if the local Federal Courts have ever ruled on it or how they view it so it would be a low percentage shot.

Steyr_223
09-08-2007, 3:23 PM
"How to react if Microstamping becomes law?"

Civil disobedience. Early, often, in numbers and in the open..

CCWFacts
09-08-2007, 3:31 PM
It will not be a happy day if this becomes law. There will be a bunch of possible reactions:

1. Surely there will be lawsuits. On what grounds, and how successful, I do not know.

2. I'll buy a bunch of handguns before it kicks in.

3. Are guns already on the safety list grandfathered?

4. This might be the kick in the pants we need to inspire CA gun owners to get even more organized and active.

5. There will be turn-over in the state assembly, due to term limits. Maybe we'll have a shot at replacing some bad assemblymen?

BaronW
09-08-2007, 4:20 PM
I'm making a list of MUST purchases before 2010... I'm not 21, but my father can legally buy them and transfer them to me. Right now, I'm looking at a RIA 1911 and a Glock 23. After that maybe a beretta neos, but I may not have that much luxury money (college student). In that case, I'll just buy a 1911 .22lr kit at my convenience. I'm also planning to buy a 9mm conversion barrel for the 23. Including my GP-100, I'll be able to shoot 22lr, 9mm, 38spl, 357mag, 40s&w, 45acp. 3 handguns with two calibers each.

KenpoProfessor
09-08-2007, 4:33 PM
I'm making a list of MUST purchases before 2010... I'm not 21, but my father can legally buy them and transfer them to me. Right now, I'm looking at a RIA 1911 and a Glock 23. After that maybe a beretta neos, but I may not have that much luxury money (college student). In that case, I'll just buy a 1911 .22lr kit at my convenience. I'm also planning to buy a 9mm conversion barrel for the 23. Including my GP-100, I'll be able to shoot 22lr, 9mm, 38spl, 357mag, 40s&w, 45acp. 3 handguns with two calibers each.

If you go with a G23 you get 3 calibers, .40 S&W, 357Sig, and 9mm with the conversion barrels. I have all 3 and they're all ported.

With the G21 I have the luxury of 4 calibers, .45 ACP (duh), 10mm, 400 Corbon, and .40 Super. The last round is a Wildcat and is difficult to find, but from what I hear, it's one helluva round, on par with a .41Mag.

I was at the gun show today where I picked up my KKM 10mm conversion barrel and some 15rd 10mm mags with the ambicut (I assume they're going to start producing a G20SF soon), as well as a .40-9mm conversion barrel for my XD40Sub. They just started producing these at EFK Firedragon and the owner sold me one of the first batch. I immediately headed to Scottsdale Gun Club and tried them out. WOOWWWWWWW is all I can say. I also picked up a couple of each of the 25rd .45 and 28rd .40 for both the 21 & 23 and another 33rd for the 9mm conversion.

The whole beauty of using a conversion barrel is the gun is registered at a certain caliber, when a different caliber is used, it will throw the brass and you can claim someone else has your gun number. Something else the legislation didn't think about to throw in their faces.

Have a great gun carryin' Kenpo day

Clyde

BaronW
09-08-2007, 4:36 PM
If you go with a G23 you get 3 calibers, .40 S&W, 357Sig, and 9mm with the conversion barrels. I have all 3 and they're all ported.

With the G21 I have the luxury of 4 calibers, .45 ACP (duh), 10mm, 400 Corbon, and .40 Super. The last round is a Wildcat and is difficult to find, but from what I hear, it's one helluva round, on par with a .41Mag.

I was at the gun show today where I picked up my KKM 10mm conversion barrel and some 15rd 10mm mags with the ambicut (I assume they're going to start producing a G20SF soon), as well as a .40-9mm conversion barrel for my XD40Sub. They just started producing these at EFK Firedragon and the owner sold me one of the first batch. I immediately headed to Scottsdale Gun Club and tried them out. WOOWWWWWWW is all I can say.

Have a great gun carryin' Kenpo day

Clyde

There are conversion barrels for the XD? That was the main draw of the Glock over the XD, I'd actually rather get the SA gun. Thanks for the tip!

KenpoProfessor
09-08-2007, 4:40 PM
There are conversion barrels for the XD? That was the main draw of the Glock over the XD, I'd actually rather get the SA gun. Thanks for the tip!


https://www.efkfiredragon.com/categories.php

Do a Google search for XD conversion barrels, you can find 'em easy, they're just more expensive than the Glock barrels ;).

Have a great gun carryin' Kenpo day

Clyde

chris
09-08-2007, 4:42 PM
We all know what will happen the gun makers will more than likely drop the KA market. Since retooling an entire industry for one state is not worth it. I see semi-auto handgun sales dropping to zero but a huge jump before this becomes law. This bill will do nothing but raise the amount of handgun purchases to an all time high.

donger
09-08-2007, 4:47 PM
I'll buy a file!:eek:

simonov
09-08-2007, 5:45 PM
We all know what will happen the gun makers will more than likely drop the KA market. Since retooling an entire industry for one state is not worth it. I see semi-auto handgun sales dropping to zero but a huge jump before this becomes law. This bill will do nothing but raise the amount of handgun purchases to an all time high.

And then get Californians interested in revolvers again.

A silver lining!

bwiese
09-08-2007, 6:14 PM
And then get Californians interested in revolvers again.

A silver lining!


Yep, I can see a variety of N-frame 38/357 variants on the 627 platform becoming in demand.

BaronW
09-08-2007, 6:16 PM
I just did the math again and I WILL be 21 before this takes effect! Wunderbar!

turinreza
09-08-2007, 6:30 PM
time to buy a pair of 1911s

Crazed_SS
09-08-2007, 7:21 PM
We all know what will happen the gun makers will more than likely drop the KA market. Since retooling an entire industry for one state is not worth it. I see semi-auto handgun sales dropping to zero but a huge jump before this becomes law. This bill will do nothing but raise the amount of handgun purchases to an all time high.

Why would manufactuers drop CA altogether. There'd still be many models that were certified already. The microstamping requirement doesnt make all pistols without microstamping fall off the list on Jan 1, 2010..... Does it?

Im confused now. :(

I was under the impression, stuff that has already been certified will get to stay on the list as long as the manufacturers pay the fee.

hoffmang
09-08-2007, 7:43 PM
That which is on the list now, stays on the list as long as it's manufacturer continues to renew it each year.

This law only applies to new semi-automatic handguns.

-Gene

Pvt. Cowboy
09-08-2007, 7:52 PM
The big moneymakers in all of this are going to be the people selling aftermarket barrels and firing pins to the conga line of Californians coming by their table at the Reno show. They'll display them right next to boxes of Dremel tool jeweler's buffing wheels in diameters to match whatever caliber you need.

California will probably respond by not permitting anything but a fixed barrel handgun to be put on the 'authorized for sale in CA' list and make it a felony for any gunsmith to circumvent the microstamping by retrofitting a new barrel on a handgun. One of these days it will become law in California to have a 75 pound iron ball permanently chained to your handgun which must be kept at an authorized shooting club of which you are a member. I'm surprised that photo IDs aren't required for all gun owners.

Man, am I glad I don't live in CA anymore.

glockman19
09-08-2007, 10:10 PM
1. Surely there will be lawsuits. On what grounds, and how successful, I do not know.
?
2. I'll buy a bunch of handguns before it kicks in.
Me too, but witha limit of one a month that's only 27 New gund before 12/31/09. Better get on those PPT's
3. Are guns already on the safety list grandfathered?
YES
4. This might be the kick in the pants we need to inspire CA gun owners to get even more organized and active.
YES
5. There will be turn-over in the state assembly, due to term limits. Maybe we'll have a shot at replacing some bad assemblymen?
YES anyone want to run for their offices? Fuer, Deleon must go.

WokMaster1
09-08-2007, 10:37 PM
That which is on the list now, stays on the list as long as it's manufacturer continues to renew it each year.

This law only applies to new semi-automatic handguns.

-Gene

There are a lot of guns out there that WILL PASS the safety tests that the DOJ/legislature wants. The fact that John Doe in Nevada can have it but not me really makes my blood boil. What kind of legal ramifications can we use against the state? Discrimation? Fraud? Stupidity? There's got to be something. If those tools can sue McD over a cup of coffee, I'm sure with the wealth of legal minds here, we can certainly think of something. Think people! Think!

What if the ceramic pin keeps on breaking? Can we sue the maker/inventor til he runs out of business. Just bury him in legal paperwork? Then the anyone else who picks up the patent, gets the same treatment. What is the NRA's stance on this?

Crazed_SS
09-08-2007, 11:05 PM
A. Most likely, the manufacturers will go along, and modify and certify the common models (Glocks, Springfields, Rugers). It won't change very much compared to today, except that the roster of approved handguns will get even shorter.


I have to disagree here. Why would Glock, SA, Ruger, etc even bother adding Microstamping capability to their pistols when all of their popular models are already certified for sale? All it would do is cost them more money.. when they can just keep paying the fee to keep their current guns listed. Im putting money on very few manufacturers even bothering with microstamping. The popular models are still here so the gun companies will still get their money out of Californians.

CalNRA
09-08-2007, 11:08 PM
I have to disagree here. Why would Glock, SA, Ruger, etc even bother adding Microstamping capability to their pistols when all of their popular models are already certified for sale? All it would do is cost them more money.

Im putting money on very few manufacturers even bothering with microstamping. The popular models are still here so the gun companies will still get their money out of Californians.

I agree. they can keep the same old G19/21/30/etc, a few models 1911s and rimfire pistols on the roster. It costs them next to nothing to keep the guns on the list but as long as they sell more than a few guns they are already breaking even.

then again, everyone should have at least one Glock, one 1911, and one rimfire pistol already and if not get your butt over to the local gunshop, skip the next upgrade to your flat-screen TV and buy a few guns this year.

hoffmang
09-08-2007, 11:54 PM
On close reading of this bill there are some interesting and non obvious issues with it. This story is not at all over...

-Gene

383green
09-09-2007, 12:16 AM
I know I'm preaching to the choir, but here are a few reasons why this microstamping stuff cannot work.

Miniature diamond file:

http://www.mcmaster.com/catalog/113/gfx/large/4252ac1l.gif


Flexible cylinder hone:

http://www.mcmaster.com/catalog/113/gfx/large/4424ap1l.gif


Brass catcher:

http://www.three-peaks.net/brass_catcher.jpg

BaronW
09-09-2007, 12:21 AM
But people won't file off their microstamps, they made it ILLEGAL.

383green
09-09-2007, 12:36 AM
But people won't file off their microstamps, they made it ILLEGAL.

:smilielol5:

Anthonysmanifesto
09-09-2007, 12:52 AM
This thread is most appropriate AFTER it has passed.

which it has not.

FAX

CAll

E-mail.

radioactivelego
09-09-2007, 1:45 AM
http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/10/uhaulsu1.jpg

No really, I will have given up completely if Arnold really does sign this bull****.

BrianK_73
09-09-2007, 4:55 AM
http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/10/uhaulsu1.jpg



:rofl2:

CavTrooper
09-09-2007, 6:32 AM
This thread is most appropriate AFTER it has passed.

which it has not.

FAX

CAll

E-mail.

Defense doesnt win anything. Thats one reason the CA laws are as they are. People trying to defend against stupid new laws rather than going on the offense to tear down exisisting laws and create laws that will prevent further infringement.

Piper
09-09-2007, 9:19 AM
My first thought if microstamping becomes law and LE is exempt, is how can a firearm be considered dangerous without a microstamp in the hands of a private citizen, but not dangerous in the hands of LE?

I really think there is a legitatimate legal challenge there if a group of people are willing to take it up.

mike100
09-09-2007, 9:21 AM
Defense doesnt win anything. Thats one reason the CA laws are as they are. People trying to defend against stupid new laws rather than going on the offense to tear down exisisting laws and create laws that will prevent further infringement.

Gerrymandered districts can not be overcome when you are talking about certain issues that will always be ramrodded thru the the legislature in CA. We lost the initiative when the governors reform propositions were all shot down. one of them (don't remember which number) had to do with redrawing districts so that more moderate/ republican reps could get votes.

the game is fixed- perhaps the governator will veto.

Crazed_SS
09-09-2007, 9:30 AM
My first thought if microstamping becomes law and LE is exempt, is how can a firearm be considered dangerous without a microstamp in the hands of a private citizen, but not dangerous in the hands of LE?



In the same way a firearm without a magazine disconnect and/or CLI can be considered dangerous in the hands of a private citizen, but not dangerous in the hands of LE.. Microstamping isnt the big deal here.. the whole certified safe pistol program was the death blow.

glockman19
09-09-2007, 9:33 AM
My first thought if microstamping becomes law and LE is exempt, is how can a firearm be considered dangerous without a microstamp in the hands of a private citizen, but not dangerous in the hands of LE?

I guess the same argument can be used for the fact that they, LEO, can buy guns NOT on the DOJ Approved list. What makes them able to buy firearms? Also Anyone moving to the state with a gun NOT on the DOJ Approved list can still transfer it through a PPT.

MedSpec65
09-09-2007, 9:39 AM
Didn't the Governor Veto a bill like this once before?

CavTrooper
09-09-2007, 9:51 AM
Gerrymandered districts can not be overcome when you are talking about certain issues that will always be ramrodded thru the the legislature in CA. We lost the initiative when the governors reform propositions were all shot down. one of them (don't remember which number) had to do with redrawing districts so that more moderate/ republican reps could get votes.

the game is fixed- perhaps the governator will veto.

I say BULL! When it comes down to it, we have truth, right and logic on our side. We need to spread it throughout our comunities as or more effectively as the ANTIs do. We must go on the offensive, tear down ignorance and misconceptions, go above and beyond merely wringing our hands everytime a vote comes along. Expose the liars, cheats and ANTI gun hacks for who they are. If some folks spent half the time trying to discredit the ANTI-GUN movement as they do trying to discredit the Predsident of the United States, we might be a little further along in this process.

Instead we have docile, timid folks leading the pro-gun movement. Folks who are afraid to expose themselves as gun-owners and folks who are afraid to excercise thier rights as Americans. Theres no need to push the edge of legalities, walk the fine line between freedom and jail, just do what is right, follow the laws and be proud to be an upstanding, law abiding, gun owning citizen. In the end the law is on your side.

When you act like criminals, you will be treated as criminals. When you hide and sneak around to participate in your hobbies, or excercise your rights you will be looked at as dishonest. What do you have to hide?

Educate your neighboors, friends, co-workers.
Go out of your way to expose yourself as a law abiding gun owner.
Take every opportunity to fight disinformation.
It will not come easy, thanks to those who have comprimised our rights away, we must FORCE change! Use the tactics of the ANTIs against them and we will win.
Shout down, sue and legislate EVERYONE if we must, but we must get it done.

MedSpec65
09-09-2007, 10:11 AM
Just look at the faces of some of the Assemblymen and women the voters of this State have placed in office. I doubt if 10% of them would even take the time to review a bill like this one. They'll simply vote with their colleagues. Guns are not a big issue with these people. They just hate 'em and wish they would go away. Our only hope is with the Governor IMHO.

hoffmang
09-09-2007, 10:54 AM
Just look at the faces of some of the Assemblymen and women the voters of this State have placed in office. I doubt if 10% of them would even take the time to review a bill like this one. They'll simply vote with their colleagues. Guns are not a big issue with these people. They just hate 'em and wish they would go away. Our only hope is with the Governor IMHO.

So we have to make it a big issue for them. You'd be surprised what effect having to wade through email and keep answering phone calls from gunnies has on their desire to be on the wrong side or sponsor/deal with these sorts of bills.

It's easy for them to learn to just say that "I think we have enough gun laws in CA" to avoid the pain we can and do cause them. Call, fax, and email the Assembly.

-Gene

bulgron
09-09-2007, 11:04 AM
It doesn't matter whether Arnold signs this bill, this should be a wakeup call for all of us.

There's only one appropriate response. Go after the sponsors of this bill the next time they come up for election.

Since CA is gerrymandered, it isn't currently a viable strategy to advance Republican candidates against these people. What we have to do is advance pro-gun Dems against them in the Dem primaries.

The obviousness of this is blinding, and yet every time I bring it up with gunnies, they all just shrug. But we have to punish the antis by taking their jobs away from them, and the primaries are currently the best way to do that. They are generally very poorly attended, so they are our best bet if we can get pro-gun Dems to go vote for pro-gun Dems ... or pro-gun Declines To State types to switch registration and go vote for them.

The hard part is putting all the partisan crap aside, identifying pro-gun Dems, and then organizing to get them elected in the primaries.

Or should we all just sit around and cry when bills like this one get shoved down our collective throats?