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View Full Version : 21 year-old gun owner shot by Deputy thanks in part to a picture posted online


Dr. Peter Venkman
09-07-2007, 1:15 PM
http://www.newsobserver.com/news/story/637859.html

Facebook.com and Myspace.com are virtual billboards for young people to proclaim who they are.
But for many, these social networking sites are places where they try on disguises, mimicking tough or provocative identities often counter to their honor-roll reality.

For the police and school officials turning to these sites to monitor students and investigate crimes, navigating the space between pretending and endangering can be deadly.

Ryan Mills knows the cost of posting a photo that unsettled police.

Mills, 21, posed on Facebook with friends and high-powered guns. A deputy sheriff ended up shooting to death Mills' friend Peyton Strickland, an 18-year-old college student from Durham, during a botched raid in December in Wilmington. A grand jury decided last week that the deputy, who said he expected heavily armed resistance based on the Facebook picture, should not be indicted for fatally shooting an unarmed Strickland through the door.

University of North Carolina-Wilmington police and sheriff's deputies had gone to the Wilmington home of Strickland, a student at Cape Fear Community College, looking for a PlayStation 3 video game machine they suspected he and Mills stole.

Police feared that the guns pictured with Mills were in Strickland's house. Christopher Long, the deputy who shot Strickland, carried a .45-caliber submachine gun, a .45-caliber pistol, two extra pistol magazines, two extra sub gun magazines, a gas mask, a knife and a flash bang grenade, according to court records.

Long fired through the front door after mistaking the sound of a battering ram hitting the door for the blast of a gun.

"If I had even thought once that [the photo] could be misconstrued, or even worse, used against me or my friends by the people who are supposed to be protecting human life, I would have removed them," Mills said Friday, speaking publicly about the photo for the first time.

Two years ago, Mills tried out his new digital camera by snapping pictures of himself and his buddies posing with a friend's gun collection.

They spent the day target shooting, then goofed around at the licensed gun owner's house in Pittsboro, posing like tough guys with the unloaded rifles and handguns. In the photos, Mills is smirking; another friend is grinning.

Mills thought the photos were cool and posted a few to his Facebook profile. They joined a collage of pictures of college parties and beach trips.

An affidavit by Long filed as part of the grand jury proceedings last week shows just how much stock police put in Mills' Facebook photo.

Long said the mission that night was expected to be "extraordinarily dangerous." He described Mills' photo as "intimidating" and "hostile."

Long's team, he said in the affidavit, had been briefed that the "AR-15 firearms that we had seen in the photos and which were believed to be in the residence were capable of penetrating our body armor."

Mills said he can't believe officers made such a leap.

"Anyone looking closely at the facial expressions in the photo can tell it is just guys goofing on the guns," Mills said.

It is not clear why officers thought those guns would be in Strickland's house. Strickland is not in the photo. Mills did not live with Strickland. He lived in a townhouse three miles away; the address appeared in a campus directory.

Police found nothing but an unloaded hunting rifle and shotgun in Strickland's room at the other end of his house, said his father, Don Strickland of Durham. Peyton Strickland was a licensed hunter.

Strickland's death presents a sobering lesson on how photos and statements posted online can be misinterpreted.
Facebook and other Internet social networking sites such as MySpace.com and Friendster.com became popular with teens several years ago, creating online communities for chatting, sharing pictures and making friends. More and more university police departments are turning to these sites to gather information.

"As students have migrated to electronic communication, we've had to adjust to that," said N.C. State University Police Sgt. Jon Barnwell. "Day to day, we peruse these sites. It's part of our job now because that's where students are."

Nationally, police and university officials turn to these sites to make drastic decisions. Last year in Colorado, police arrested a 16-year-old boy pictured on MySpace with a gun and charged him with juvenile possession of a firearm.

In April, officials at the State University of New York in Cobleskill suspended student Tharindu Meepegama and sent him to a mental hospital after finding a Facebook photo of him posing with a shotgun and reading a comment they found troubling.

Meepegama, who is from Sri Lanka, was escorted from his apartment in handcuffs after university leaders saw the photo, he said. He has since won back his right to study there and says the incident was a misunderstanding.

"As they say, hindsight is 20-20," he said, "and now I lie in bed at night and think about everything I post online and make sure nothing can be misconstrued."

Intent lost in translation

Because of how students use these sites, it is easy to see why adults often misinterpret postings and photos.

"To the extent that it's a dress-up-and-play thing, it is widely misunderstood by adults," said Fred Stutzman, a graduate student at UNC-Chapel Hill who has conducted many studies on online social networking sites. "Just because we see these photos on the Internet does not mean we have a bunch of young people ready to have shootouts with police."

University police say they often don't have the luxury of giving students the benefit of the doubt. "When it comes to threatening behavior, unless we have something else to counter it, we have to treat it as a threat," said Marlene Hall, director of UNC-Charlotte's University Police and Public Safety. "We don't have some sort of magic notion or ESP or something."

UNC-Wilmington police have been unwilling to discuss their investigation into the PlayStation 3 robbery and the Dec. 1 raid of Strickland's house. They were unavailable Friday to discuss how their department uses sites such as Facebook to investigate student behavior.

In April, Mills pleaded guilty to common law robbery for his part in the PlayStation robbery. He is on probation and works full time with a crew building solar homes.

Strickland's death haunts him. His possible role in it devastates him.

"The injustice of his death crushed me, and it has taken a long time to even begin moving on from what has happened," Mills said.

After Strickland died, he stripped his Facebook profile off the Internet.

"It simply seems too risky to me now to involve myself in any way online, and I don't think that will ever change," Mills said.

(News researcher Denise Jones contributed to this report.)

Copied this over from the High Road. It's a little old but still worth talking about. I sure hope that Law Enforcement does not go banging on my door (nor the SoupNazis) any time soon.

Socal858
09-07-2007, 1:37 PM
in before the tinfoilers and everyone feeling guilt for an innocent little boy

obviously, i deem it negligent to be shooting through a door into the unknown.

however, i believe the article omitted the part where strickland and pals committed armed robbery and beat the bleeding crap out of some kid for a ps3?

just putting the facts out there . . everyone here celebrates when some ghetto hoodlum gets killed for drug dealing, robbery, or assault; i believe this to be a common situation

StukaJr
09-07-2007, 1:50 PM
Yes, it does:

UNC-Wilmington police have been unwilling to discuss their investigation into the PlayStation 3 robbery and the Dec. 1 raid of Strickland's house. They were unavailable Friday to discuss how their department uses sites such as Facebook to investigate student behavior.

In April, Mills pleaded guilty to common law robbery for his part in the PlayStation robbery. He is on probation and works full time with a crew building solar homes.

Was the suspect convicted by a jury of his peers for that armed robbery? Or did the suspect perish in a serving of a warrant? Last time I checked - innocent before proven guilty, so ideally, the suspect survives the arrest (not shot through the closed door) and then tried in the court...

As these incidents pile on, the cops will lose their "dynamic entry" no knock warrants for when they actually need them - by executing these jackbooted tactics with bad intel on small juvenile fish... This guy was a student - which suggests that he would be coming and going in some accordance to a "class schedule"... It also suggests, that he could have been apprehended outside of the residence... How about knocking on the door and pretending to be a UPS or Jahova's Witness?

And shooting through the door, into the residence?

Fjold
09-07-2007, 1:52 PM
The part that I find unusual is:

"Long fired through the front door after mistaking the sound of a battering ram hitting the door for the blast of a gun."


Weren't the cops the ones using the battering ram?

Was he standing right by the battering ram being used?

Bishop
09-07-2007, 1:54 PM
Unbelievable.

I'm speechless.

Socal858
09-07-2007, 1:59 PM
Yes, it does:



Was the suspect convicted by a jury of his peers for that armed robbery? Or did the suspect perish in a serving of a warrant? Last time I checked - innocent before proven guilty, so ideally, the suspect survives the arrest (not shot through the closed door).

As these incidents pile on, the cops will lose their "dynamic entry" no knock warrants for when they actually need them - by executing these jackbooted tactics with bad intel.

And shooting through the door, into the residence?

i dont disagree with you at all. dynamic entry was pulled off very crappily and recklessly. also upsetting and ridiculous an unarmed unthreatening subject perished in search warrant execution

however, i was illustrating a point that hypocrisy will eventually arise in this forum because i dont believe this situation is any difference when a street banger with big rims and big pants commits a crime and this kid commits armed robbery.

the difference is that people will sooner cheer for the hoodie expiring and raise more questions about this kid dieing. just because he was a gun owner and took some unthreatening pictures makes him less of a street thug?

CalNRA
09-07-2007, 2:04 PM
I'm speechless, both at the situation as well as the poster before me.

Patriot
09-07-2007, 2:05 PM
The guy was a **** Committing violent crimes after posting pictures like that on the web is just stupid.

I don't want to be unjustly critical of the officer in question, but it's pretty obvious that he definitely used very poor judgment considering none of the other officers reacted as he did:

"When the ram hit the door, he thought it was gunfire," David said. "His belief that there was gunfire coming from the inside out was not shared by others."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16160104/


However, this incident in general is relevant for people who might be potential targets of frivolous or malicious harassment and have disseminated media of this sort on the web. As Calguns has seen recently, you don't have to be a criminal to attract unwelcome LE attention

Bishop
09-07-2007, 2:09 PM
Check here:
http://www.starnewsonline.com/article/20070426/NEWS/704260436/-1/news30

No murder charges, but the officer was fired.

"Long was covering another deputy and later told investigators he mistook the crashing noise of an ERT battering ram for gunfire from inside the home. Long fired through the front door, hitting Strickland twice and inflicting a fatal head wound.

Long was fired by Sheriff Sid Causey several days after the shooting.

David presented second-degree murder charges against Long to a grand jury in December. A clerical error by a grand jury foreman resulted in an announcement that Long had been indicted, when in fact the grand jury had found no grounds for a second-degree murder charge. The mistake was corrected the next day."

Bishop
09-07-2007, 2:13 PM
It's still not illegal to post pictures of yourself on the internet with guns.

The student didn't commit any of the crimes with guns, and what ever happened to waiting until someone you're trying to catch was out of their dwelling?

If I was so afraid of someone being armed to the teeth, I'd pick them up while they walked down the street or were backing out of their driveway! I don't know what policy is, but if I feared for my life, I certainly wouldn't wait until the dangerous person was behind closed doors in a defensible position.

ghettoshecky
09-07-2007, 2:23 PM
"Police feared that the guns pictured with Mills were in Strickland's house. Christopher Long, the deputy who shot Strickland, carried a .45-caliber submachine gun, a .45-caliber pistol, two extra pistol magazines, two extra sub gun magazines, a gas mask, a knife and a flash bang grenade, according to court records."

Was it a Mac-10??? Tragic for the boy, but I am in agreement with Socal858 in that strickland did jack a kid who was waiting for a few days to get a PS3 and I thought that was pretty damn low. Nonetheless thats pretty damn cool North Carolina police can roll with a Mac-10 .45 cal.

StukaJr
09-07-2007, 2:25 PM
however, i was illustrating a point that hypocrisy will eventually arise in this forum because i dont believe this situation is any difference when a street banger with big rims and big pants commits a crime and this kid commits armed robbery.

the difference is that people will sooner cheer for the hoodie expiring and raise more questions about this kid dieing. just because he was a gun owner and took some unthreatening pictures makes him less of a street thug?

It's all fine and well, except for the fact that the deceased was getting a warrant served - not a criminal (no admission of guilt, not found guilty, charged, pleaded etc). He also did not own the firearms in the pictures - it's unclear whether the shotgun and a hunting rifle found at the residence even belonged to the suspect.

I don't know about the size of his pants - apparently you know a lot more about this kid, than the article lets known.

I have pictures of myself grinning on a WWII tank - should cops fire bazookas into my garage, when serving me a warrant? :43:

In the end, it's the case of Police Officer discharging his weapon on "audio" target without having perception of a threat (other than being scared of there being AR-15's on the other end) and shooting through the door - that's what I have the main problem with. Second, is the decision to execute a no-knock warrant on a robbery suspect with no prior convictions - the risk of botching a raid greatly outweigh the netted prosecution (what would the suspect be given... Probation? 60 hours of community service?)... A .45 slug to the head for a stolen PS3 - I want my money back

Bishop
09-07-2007, 2:26 PM
I think we're missing something here...

1. Kid poses in pictures holding guns
2. Kid participates in theft of PS3.
3. Unarmed kid is shot to death through his door.

This is OK with some folks here? :confused:

pnkssbtz
09-07-2007, 2:30 PM
I think we're missing something here...

1. Kid poses in pictures holding guns
2. Kid ALLEGEDLY participates in theft of PS3.
3. Unarmed kid is shot to death through his door.

This is OK with some folks here? :confused:

Just added that to point out the whole "Innocent Until Proven Guilty IN A COURT OF LAW" part that people forget.

sen24
09-07-2007, 2:32 PM
Was it a Mac-10???

probably hk ump.

aplinker
09-07-2007, 2:39 PM
All I can say is...

SWAT for a PS3?

StukaJr
09-07-2007, 2:43 PM
It shows up on the "Botched Raids" http://www.cato.org/raidmap/

http://wmimg.ny.publicus.com/apps/pbcsi.dll/bilde?Site=WM&Date=20061211&Category=BREAKING&ArtNo=61211004&Ref=AR&maxW=255&MaxH=400&Q=100
Cpl. Christopher Long

More incident related articles are here:

http://www.starnewsonline.com/section/news30

Harbinger
09-07-2007, 2:46 PM
the difference is that people will sooner cheer for the hoodie expiring and raise more questions about this kid dieing. just because he was a gun owner and took some unthreatening pictures makes him less of a street thug?

I've been seeing a lot of this trolling for racism, lately. Where are you guys getting this crap from, cuz I'm not seeing it on this board.

Mike

alpha_romeo_XV
09-07-2007, 2:54 PM
A message that I can reinforce from first hand experience, related to this thread, is this: MySpace postings can/will be used against you ( or your friends/family) by LE or Court and the consequences may be disastrous. I have learned the hard way a lot about the lack of rights a juvenile has, e.g. no right to bail, no right to jury, no option to serve your “sentence” with reduction for good behavior. Reality is juveniles can be forced into a treatment program until age 25 at the parents expense ( $5- 10K /month). Unlike Paris Hilton who served 21 days of a 45 day sentence (at county expense) for violating probation, a juvenile, under the same violation could be sent to “re-education” for 2-4 years, with a $100k/yr bill to the parents.:eek:
Forget about judging the actions of ONE deputy in this case, the kid is dead and not coming back. But as OP intended, try spreading the word that MANY people are getting jacked beyond belief for goofing off on MySpace. I see it more as a 1st amendment / freedom of expression issue. DA’s are easily and successfully using MySpace postings in ways that the posters never imagined could happen or were legal. Things that are shown on TV shows, movies, music videos everyday by “professionals”, and are considered entertaining – even get laughs, will get you, “average Joe” in deep s**t when posted on-line. Don’t assume you or your buddies have the same right to expression/humor that the media industry does. It just ain’t so, and price could be very high for the mistake. Either that or start plastering disclaimers on your MySpace postings "for entertainment purposes only, do not take seriously".

Japedo
09-07-2007, 2:55 PM
I like this quote:
A grand jury decided last week that the deputy, who said he expected heavily armed resistance based on the Facebook picture, should not be indicted for fatally shooting an unarmed Strickland through the door.

So now because we post pics here of our toys, its okay for officers to shoot at us. After all they have reason to believe we are armed. This story is very upsetting.

saki302
09-07-2007, 2:58 PM
I want to know WTF they were executing a no-knock warrant for with a PS3 theft, I mean, what's the kid going to do, flush it down the toilet like drugs?!?! The whole point of the no-knock is to barge in before they have a chance to flush the evidence..

If they watched the house for a day or two, picked him up on the way to class and did a warranted search of the empty house, all this would have been avoided.
Even a pimp crap drug delaer deserves a trial, not to be shot through a closed door.

-Dave

StukaJr
09-07-2007, 3:04 PM
I like this quote:
A grand jury decided last week that the deputy, who said he expected heavily armed resistance based on the Facebook picture, should not be indicted for fatally shooting an unarmed Strickland through the door.

So now because we post pics here of our toys, its okay for officers to shoot at us. After all they have reason to believe we are armed. This story is very upsetting.

The prosecutor got overzealous and charged the officer with manslaughter with malicious intent - it's very likely that the case would not have gotten thrown out, has the charge been "involuntary manslaughter" (as there is no proof of the former)... There is also a possibility that it was a "filing error", in which case - the officer just got lucky...

But yes, exercising your first Amendment means you surrender your Fourth :sleeping:

Patriot
09-07-2007, 3:06 PM
The prosecutor got overzealous and charged the officer with manslaughter with malicious intent - it's very likely that the case would not have gotten thrown out, has the charge been "involuntary manslaughter" (as there is no proof of the former)... There is also a possibility that it was a "filing error", in which case - the officer just got lucky...

Yeah, I wondered about that.

Bad Voodoo
09-07-2007, 3:18 PM
[url]Strickland's death presents a sobering lesson on how photos and statements posted online can be misinterpreted.

Oh, is that the lesson here???? Really???? Or is the lesson how LEAs all over the country, no matter the size, have transformed themselves into jackbooted, tacticool, paramilitary organizations? At least these agencies and Temecula PD apparently have something else in common. BOREDOM.

-voodoo

supersonic
09-07-2007, 3:32 PM
LAW-ABIDING CITIZEN SAVES LIVES OF FAMILY/FRIENDS BY USING DEADLY FORCE AGAINST ARMED CAREER CRIMINAL=JAIL TIME & $100'S OF THOUSANDS LOST (USUALLY HOME/PROPERTY LOST-LEGAL BILLS).
LEO MAKES STUPID "MISTAKE" = INNOCENT PERSON DEAD/FAMILY DESTROYED/LEO GETS PAID DURING OFF-TIME/INVESTIGATION. OUTCOME:COP IS CLEARED OF ALL WRONGDOING. Welcome to the real world we know as "THE US of A," AND MORE SO IN PRK.
S.S.:43:

RandallH1989
09-07-2007, 4:06 PM
They did a dynamic entry on a house who held a suspect of stealing a PS3? Wow.. I knew those things were expensive, but jeez!

Seriously, though - what the hell was he thinking firing through the door?

SavageMaxx
09-07-2007, 4:28 PM
I want to know WTF they were executing a no-knock warrant for with a PS3 theft

-Dave

my thoughts exactly....:eek:

CalNRA
09-07-2007, 5:08 PM
my thoughts exactly....:eek:

but the kid was seen with guns!!!! The horror!!!!

hell the heck with the war on drugs, we need a war on PSIIIs!!!:rolleyes:

1919_4_ME
09-07-2007, 5:12 PM
I dont know why they just didnt wait till the guy leaves his house and then do a normal stop on him or go visit him at work where theres less danger to everyone.:chris:

aplinker
09-07-2007, 5:26 PM
I dont know why they just didnt wait till the guy leaves his house and then do a normal stop on him or go visit him at work where theres less danger to everyone.:chris:

They wanted to catch him in the act of playing PS3?

They probably did want to find the PS3 there, but come on, it's a PS3. Seriously, people.

Reminds me of the 80's when people were getting killed over Air Jordans.

RANGER295
09-07-2007, 5:58 PM
I don’t know that there is anything that I can add to this in terms of analyzing the situation in the article and giving my $0.02 worth. I will say this however, we should all take this as a reminder to be cautious about what we put online. It is not like we have never seen anything remotely like this. BWO is an example of a MySpace profile being used against someone. Right after he got nailed, I removed most firearms related pictures from my MySpace profile and added a disclaimer. I see a large number of people that are careless. I know one guy who has a picture of his illegally configured OLL on his profile. Right or wrong, like it or not, this is the environment that we live in and we need to act accordingly.

taloft
09-07-2007, 6:34 PM
The cop screwed the pooch on this one, no doubt about it.

Which is more likely, they arrest him on the street then recover the PSIII, or they serve a no-knock warrant and catch him with multiple incriminating items in plain view? Items not on the warrant like drugs, guns, etc.

I personally think they used the theft of the PSIII as an excuse to go on a fishing expedition. The no-knock approach would give them the best chance of finding things left out in plain view. Odds are that if they knocked first, the kids would stash whatever they could prior to opening the door. If they grabbed him on the street, most likely he would have stashed anything incriminating prior to leaving the dwelling. Since a warrant is usually supposed to list very specific items and their location, anything that wasn't on the warrant and not in plain view wouldn't be admissible as evidence.

Of course, we don't know much about the suspects past. Perhaps they've had run ins with the law before. Maybe the police knew something else that made this a good approach, who really knows. Using the ego induced crap typically put up by kids on a myspace or face page to determine threat levels is just dumb. Whatever happened to good ole observation? By the way, I don't buy the battering ram story either. Sounds like a trigger happy fool trying to justify his stupidity.

I guess this confirms my suspicions about doors making for poor protection against bullets.:p

DedEye
09-07-2007, 6:50 PM
Sad and scary.
I'm still gonna leave the pictures of me at the range on my Facebook page because my privacy settings are set to "high," and I don't have any of those "thug posturing" pictures of me.

metalhead357
09-07-2007, 7:13 PM
I'm speechless, both at the situation as well as the poster before me.

+10000000 and In before the lock:):sleeping:

artherd
09-07-2007, 7:36 PM
"Long fired through the front door after mistaking the sound of a battering ram hitting the door for the blast of a gun."
He did WHAT now?!?!

neomentat
09-07-2007, 10:58 PM
a sad situation, I can't believe an innocent young life lost @ the stupidity of 1 trigger happy officer ended in the shooter just getting fired from his job.

It seems that many wrongful trigger happy shooting incidents executed by the law enforcing community are being white washed these days. And the ease of finding some bullcrap defense "excuse" for the shootings in the first place are not scrutinized very much by the court.

I believe that it's time for the law enforcement agencies in the states to start some sort of psychological screening for their employees. It seems the trend now a days is shoot first and ask questions later, and if we screwed up and killed an innocent person then we'll just make up some bull crap story so the shooter won't get punished. I think it's these same unpunished shooting incidents that promotes the "shoot first and ask questions later" type of mentality.

Hoop
09-07-2007, 11:06 PM
BOREDOM.

-voodoo

That about sums it up.

RandallH1989
09-07-2007, 11:12 PM
I seriously do not understand the article.. He shot the door that was being rammed? WTH? Someone email the damn people who put this up - have we found a coverup that was horribly covered up? =P

KenpoProfessor
09-08-2007, 4:23 AM
I don’t know that there is anything that I can add to this in terms of analyzing the situation in the article and giving my $0.02 worth. I will say this however, we should all take this as a reminder to be cautious about what we put online. It is not like we have never seen anything remotely like this. BWO is an example of a MySpace profile being used against someone. Right after he got nailed, I removed most firearms related pictures from my MySpace profile and added a disclaimer. I see a large number of people that are careless. I know one guy who has a picture of his illegally configured OLL on his profile. Right or wrong, like it or not, this is the environment that we live in and we need to act accordingly.



BBBaaaaaaaahhhhhhh,,,BBBaaaaaaaahhhhhh. Keep bleating.

Have a great gun carryin' Kenpo day

Clyde

DedEye
09-08-2007, 4:55 AM
BBBaaaaaaaahhhhhhh,,,BBBaaaaaaaahhhhhh. Keep bleating.

Have a great gun carryin' Kenpo day

Clyde

I don't understand, are you saying Ranger is being a sheep for warning others to be careful and removing pictures of himself with guns :confused:? Granted, I didn't feel the need to take that step but don't see it being a symptom of a herdlike mentality for someone else to be careful with their own photos.

rkt88edmo
09-08-2007, 6:29 AM
Welcome back Clyde :)

wow, no knock for a playstation, this is very very bad.

Dr. Peter Venkman
09-08-2007, 10:08 AM
I don't understanding how a battering ram can be confused for a gun, nor the "no-knock" over a PS3. Maybe he had the model capable of launching SCUD Missiles.

RANGER295
09-08-2007, 10:40 AM
BBBaaaaaaaahhhhhhh,,,BBBaaaaaaaahhhhhh. Keep bleating.

Have a great gun carryin' Kenpo day

Clyde

I resent that tone. You may disagree with me, but reasonable men can disagree without being insulting.

Perhaps “most” pictures was a bit to strong. I just went back and looked at what I have up there. There are pictures of me with an AR (not mine ), my AK-22, my 10FP, a group shot from a squirrel hunting trip. What I did, was remove some pictures of me shooting some NFA items in Nevada (also not mine) and a couple of pictures of myself all camoed out in silly poses. I also added a disclaimer stating that everything that I own is legal, that any assault weapons pictured are registered to a friend, and that even though I strongly disagree with it, I do not in any circumstances condone breaking the law and that I do not condone violence.

Nothing that BWO had on his profile was wrong but some of it was just unnecessary and antagonistic. I had some stuff on mine that could be construed in a similar light. I am not saying that we should hide who we are and what we do, but we should just be cautious and play heads up. Having pictures of illegal weapons like one of the guys I mentioned, is just plain stupid. We should also watch the image we portray and not fuel the crazed gun toting radical image that the antis try to paint. I may have been overboard by taking the NFA pictures off, but there was no reason to have pictures of myself looking like I was ready to storm a bunker with a caption something like “militia being necessary…” under it.

Early in the whole OLL thing I said that we should be careful about how we transport them and that we should put them in cases so that we are not flashing them when we go to and from the car and so forth. I was chastised then for being afraid to exercise my rights and told that if we are not doing anything illegal, then we shouldn’t be acting that way. Then several months later there was a whole thread on how to do basically what I had said early on. All I am saying, is that we should be careful.

metalhead357
09-08-2007, 3:50 PM
Last I checked freedom of speech was still here....arguably dying but THAT is another thread.

Similarly though we now have several occurences where Myspace, this site, and other hosting sites have been used to essentiall PRe-profile someone...

So gents (Storm~ and Kenpo~) play easy..... while Kenpo's comment was definitely the wrong tone.....it carries some unfortunate truth(s) to it. Do we lay down and play dead in fear that our lives are under the microscope?????? But so too is Ranger right in a variety of ways......

I do think Ranger said it right; Grown men CAN disagree on things....but let us not forget we ALL here have something at stake; dont let divison be our undoing.

Steyr_223
09-08-2007, 3:54 PM
did the police have a warrant? If so the judge that issued it should be reviewed..

RANGER295
09-08-2007, 4:45 PM
Last I checked freedom of speech was still here....arguably dying but THAT is another thread.

Similarly though we now have several occurences where Myspace, this site, and other hosting sites have been used to essentiall PRe-profile someone...

So gents (Storm~ and Kenpo~) play easy..... while Kenpo's comment was definitely the wrong tone.....it carries some unfortunate truth(s) to it. Do we lay down and play dead in fear that our lives are under the microscope?????? But so too is Ranger right in a variety of ways......

I do think Ranger said it right; Grown men CAN disagree on things....but let us not forget we ALL here have something at stake; dont let divison be our undoing.
In many ways I agree with what you say. We need to find somewhere in-between “playing dead” and letting it all hang out or being antagonistic. I think we should be very proud and open about the fact that we own firearms and exercise our rights. I just feel that we should do it in a smart way. I think we should try to do it in a way that portrays us in a positive light to the common person.

I really do not see this as being a freedom of speech issue. We are free to post anything we want online as long as it doesn’t violate the terms of the site you are posting on. If you were a drug dealer, you could say so online, post pictures of your goods, and give your address. That would be perfectly legal to post in terms of freedom of speech… but it would be stupid. I am not meaning to compare gun ownership to dealing drugs in any way, I am just using it as an analogy. Another analogy would be the gay lobby groups. They turn so many people off by what they portray at the gay pride parades. If they were to not fuel that image, then they would probably have a much easier time advancing their causes. The same goes for us. We need to be strategic, we need to be strong, and we need to be united. Sorry I got a bit off topic there.

metalhead357
09-08-2007, 5:11 PM
.

I really do not see this as being a freedom of speech issue. .

No no no, sorry- my bad...you missed my point as I didn't make it clear 'nuff; I did NOT mean you/this site/etc. per se..... I meant as soon as we all feel desperately compelled to curb our enthusiasm and NOT post pics for fear of Big Bro then the censorists have won, the anti's have won, and true freedom of speech dies a little more...... and that would suck;)

simonov
09-08-2007, 5:24 PM
however, i was illustrating a point that hypocrisy will eventually arise in this forum because i dont believe this situation is any difference when a street banger with big rims and big pants commits a crime and this kid commits armed robbery.

Hypocrisy? Okay, try this for size: even if the suspect was "a street banger with big rims and big pants" (WTF? is that a crime now?), IT STILL WOULDN'T BE RIGHT TO FIRE THROUGH A DOOR!

Find the hypocrisy in that statement and you win a cookie.

ANYONE ELSE IN THE COUNTRY would be up on the dock for manslaughter after firing a gun through a closed door, regardless of circumstances. But again, the wearer of the mighty badge gets a pass. Cops are allowed to use their firearms in a reckless, negligent and dangerous manner. The rest of us little people are not.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yoshihiro_Hattori

simonov
09-08-2007, 5:26 PM
wow, no knock for a playstation, this is very very bad.

I hope all you dudes have all your traffic citations and parking tickets paid up.

tyrist
09-08-2007, 5:32 PM
Not that the deputy was'nt negligent but different departments have different policies with reguard to "cover" fire. In some departments you can fire through a door if that was the armed suspects last known location.

Also the no knock warrant was probably given because there was a likely hood the suspect was heavily armed inside and by knocking the suspect could have been given time to arm himself. Try to remember that when you are in the moment and you are experiancing fear, excitement and other emotions your thinking is not what it is when you are sitting at home behind your computer with no fear of injury. Tunnel vision happens too everyone.

simonov
09-08-2007, 5:34 PM
Sad and scary.
I'm still gonna leave the pictures of me at the range on my Facebook page because my privacy settings are set to "high," and I don't have any of those "thug posturing" pictures of me.

I'm still gonna leave the pictures and videos of me with guns on Flickr and YouTube because I'm a goddamned American and it is my right to do so.

dwtt
09-08-2007, 6:11 PM
Uhh,
isn't that myspace and facebook web site for teenagers with too much free time on their hands? I wouldn't take anything on those web sites seriously, especially a bunch of kids posing with guns and trying to look stupid. But then, that's just me.

shark92651
09-08-2007, 8:53 PM
I followed this story when it first came out. They shot and killed his dog on the front porch too. What a f'ed up situation.

rg_1111@yahoo.com
09-09-2007, 9:48 AM
Does this mean we might get shot threw the door if we don't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rkt88edmo
wow, no knock for a playstation, this is very very bad.

I hope all you dudes have all your traffic citations and parking tickets paid up.

DedEye
09-10-2007, 12:47 AM
Also the no knock warrant was probably given because there was a likely hood the suspect was heavily armed inside and by knocking the suspect could have been given time to arm himself. Try to remember that when you are in the moment and you are experiancing fear, excitement and other emotions your thinking is not what it is when you are sitting at home behind your computer with no fear of injury. Tunnel vision happens too everyone.

Irrelevent. Completely freaking irrelevent. If they're worried about him arming himself, they can bust him on the way to class, wait for him to come out his door to go to class/pizza wherever, impersonate a delivery man then tackle him when he answers the door, etc. There's any number of ways they could have done this without using a freaking SWAT team.

DedEye
09-10-2007, 12:47 AM
I'm still gonna leave the pictures and videos of me with guns on Flickr and YouTube because I'm a goddamned American and it is my right to do so.

:iagree:

Me too.

Fjold
09-10-2007, 7:13 AM
Not that the deputy was'nt negligent but different departments have different policies with reguard to "cover" fire. In some departments you can fire through a door if that was the armed suspects last known location.

Also the no knock warrant was probably given because there was a likely hood the suspect was heavily armed inside and by knocking the suspect could have been given time to arm himself. Try to remember that when you are in the moment and you are experiancing fear, excitement and other emotions your thinking is not what it is when you are sitting at home behind your computer with no fear of injury. Tunnel vision happens too everyone.



I'm not a cop-basher but....

Police are supposed to be trained to a level such that tunnel-vision doesn't occur in a situation like that. Yes, it is a non-routine evolution but it is one that they train for and have pre-mission briefing, etc. It was not a surprise situation where the participants are caught unaware.

armspin
09-10-2007, 9:08 AM
I followed this story when it first came out. They shot and killed his dog on the front porch too. What a f'ed up situation.

Geez, that's horrible. So, his mom or his girlfriend or whatever could have been behind the door going out to inspect the SCREAM from the pooch?

Besides that, this is another recent development that really bothers me. I've heard that in my area, LEOs are allowed to kill your dog, even if they are not serving a warrant, if they "feel it poses a threat". WTF? Isn't that destruction of private property without due process? Was the seizure of the dog covered in the warrant? Hello, anyone seen your 4th or 5th amendments anywhere? They seem to have been lost in the shuffle...:mad:

hitnrun
09-10-2007, 10:14 AM
I always love these threads. They serve no purpose other than to further the attempts to denigrate law enforcement into some sort of mafia and are ALWAYS devoid of logic, fact, and most importantly, information.

Once again, I'll do my best to address the obvious short sidedness here...

a sad situation, I can't believe an innocent young life lost @ the stupidity of 1 trigger happy officer ended in the shooter just getting fired from his job.

You say innocent young life like you are a trained and professional apologist. :rolleyes: Did you steal that line from the media or Al Sharpton? What do you know about this guy, who was apparently wanted for robbery at the very minimum, that would lead you to believe he was 'innocent' and that the cops actions were out of stupidity? Are you saying that you are passing judgment on the whole scenario based on what has been posted here? I don't think that is very thorough, but then again, thoroughness isn't some peoples strong suit.

It seems that many wrongful trigger happy shooting incidents executed by the law enforcing community are being white washed these days. And the ease of finding some bullcrap defense "excuse" for the shootings in the first place are not scrutinized very much by the court.

Again, where are you getting this info? There are more prosecutions TODAY against LEOs for wrongful actions in the field. Civil litigations against departments have never been higher, nor have they ever been taken more seriously by depts. It doesn't mean that it isn't happening, but, it is not worse than before. Also, who are you to single handedly determine, from behind a computer and after reading an internet article, that the "excuses" are bullcrap? I must have missed the part where you are getting your detailed facts of the various cases. You are clearly a youngin' yourself. Do yourself a favor and ask somebody who had a run in with the law in the 60s or 70s. They might still have the scars and broken bones from the beat downs they received.

Also, I am assuming you missed the part where the LEO was FIRED UPON! Last time I checked, that is a pretty good case for self defense. Unless, you somehow think that the cops staged the shooting too.:rolleyes:

I believe that it's time for the law enforcement agencies in the states to start some sort of psychological screening for their employees.

Ummm, psychological testing is REQUIRED by state law for ALL LEOs. It has been for quite some time. Again, you need to be thorough before you start spouting off. Otherwise, it undermines your integrity and makes EVERYTHING else you say suspect of errors.:rolleyes: Are you implying that there is some mental deficiency with a cop who shot somebody in self defense? Heaven forbid you should ever have to shoot someone.


It seems the trend now a days is shoot first and ask questions later, and if we screwed up and killed an innocent person then we'll just make up some bull crap story so the shooter won't get punished. I think it's these same unpunished shooting incidents that promotes the "shoot first and ask questions later" type of mentality.

It seems, that you have been tracking law enforcement use of force data.:rolleyes: Again, maybe you should more thoroughly check your facts on issues and realize that violent assaults and homicides against LEOs is ALSO at an all time high. In the first six months of this year alone, more cops have been killed than any other first half year ever. What you ignorantly call a "bullcrap excuse" may very well be, and is likely, an act of self defense for the LEOs involved. I know, heaven forbid cops might have to defend themselves, even against innocent youth....after all, nobody wants to hurt cops.
I have never met one cop that WANTED to kill someone. It is traumatic, life changing event that can result in civil penalties even if the cop did everything right. A cop's career will be scrutinized and his family will also be effected emotionally.

Maybe, you should consider some of the things you say and there impact it has when others read them. Not everybody knows what goes on outside of there homes after dark. For those of you who don't have a clue (neomentat), legitimate research, asking questions, and a logical understanding of the way the world REALLY is will get you a lot further than spouting off hateful and ignorant remarks.

However, as I was not present for this incident, I cannot comment one way or the other. I have no way of knowing what actually happened. I just know what the media printed. That's all that anybody knows at this point, unless you were there first hand. I am not saying that the LEO screwed up or the dead guy screwed one way or the other. It is what it is.

hitnrun
09-10-2007, 10:28 AM
Isn't that destruction of private property without due process? Was the seizure of the dog covered in the warrant? Hello, anyone seen your 4th or 5th amendments anywhere? They seem to have been lost in the shuffle...:mad:


LOL! Ya, let's get a warrant to seize the dog that's actively trying to bite someone. I'm sure the person who gets gnawed on won't mind waiting for the judge to sign it.:rolleyes: Let's put the WHOLE legal system on hold so that we can expedite a warrant for a dog that is PRESENTLY posing a threat. Are you one of those guys that always says, "Oh don't worry, he won't bite you." Right after he just chased somebody on a bike, while frothing at the mouth and growling?? You know the kind!

Some of the things you guys come up with don't even bother me anymore, they just make me laugh!:p And then hang my head in shame because the bigger picture has nearly been lost.:(

simonov
09-10-2007, 4:29 PM
You say innocent young life like you are a trained and professional apologist. :rolleyes: Did you steal that line from the media or Al Sharpton? What do you know about this guy, who was apparently wanted for robbery at the very minimum, that would lead you to believe he was 'innocent' and that the cops actions were out of stupidity?

Because everyone is innocent until duly convicted by a jury of his peers.

I guess that's something they forgot to mention to you in cop school, as well as during the fifth grade. Or maybe you slept through that lecture. Both times.

However, as I was not present for this incident, I cannot comment one way or the other.

WTF? So what were doing just now?

Dr. Peter Venkman
09-10-2007, 5:10 PM
Because everyone is innocent until duly convicted by a jury of his peers.

By the way you are using this statement it appears you have a problem with taking suspects into custody. He is innocent of the crime until he has been found guilty by a jury of his peers (or by a magistrate depending on the circumstances) after he has been charged. You simply cannot charge someone of a serious crime without taking them into custody. It would be nonsensical and simply would not work, hence the reason for habeas corpus and the Bill of Rights.

simonov
09-10-2007, 5:37 PM
By the way you are using this statement it appears you have a problem with taking suspects into custody.

I am overly simplifying as a reaction to his statement that we don't know what kind of person the suspect was . . . which is kind of the point of why you do never fire guns through doors.

Anyway, as I stated before, even if they had the right house, there is still no justification for shooting through the door . . . which is why you can rely on hitnrun to attempt to make one.

KenpoProfessor
09-10-2007, 5:54 PM
LOL! Ya, let's get a warrant to seize the dog that's actively trying to bite someone. I'm sure the person who gets gnawed on won't mind waiting for the judge to sign it.:rolleyes: Let's put the WHOLE legal system on hold so that we can expedite a warrant for a dog that is PRESENTLY posing a threat. Are you one of those guys that always says, "Oh don't worry, he won't bite you." Right after he just chased somebody on a bike, while frothing at the mouth and growling?? You know the kind!

Some of the things you guys come up with don't even bother me anymore, they just make me laugh!:p And then hang my head in shame because the bigger picture has nearly been lost.:(

So, what is the bigger picture exactly, I'd like to know?

The cops could've easily waited for the suspect to come out of the house, hell, have a pizza delivered and have the delivery guy say he won't come to the door because of the dog. There were many more avenues to take than a no knock. So again, what is the bigger picture?

Have a great gun carryin Kenpo day

Clyde

M. Sage
09-10-2007, 6:27 PM
Also, I am assuming you missed the part where the LEO was FIRED UPON! Last time I checked, that is a pretty good case for self defense. Unless, you somehow think that the cops staged the shooting too.:rolleyes:

He was fired upon by the battering ram hitting the door?!

Long fired through the front door after mistaking the sound of a battering ram hitting the door for the blast of a gun.

So if I hear some kinda loud-ish noise that I should actually be anticipating, I can open up on my front door?

Note to self: time to set heavy objects on the edge of every shelf in the house. :rolleyes:

Sniper3142
09-10-2007, 6:29 PM
inflammatory ~ rkt88edmo
Just like Ruby Ridge. Shooting thru a door without worrying about whos on the other side.

Someone should sue ....

Of course, I don't much like lawyers either.

metalhead357
09-10-2007, 6:33 PM
rkt88edmo wuz here
Just like Ruby Ridge. Shooting thru a door without worrying about whos on the other side.

Someone should sue

Of course, I don't much like lawyers either.


While the sentiment is understandable...NOT all cops are like that nor (unfortunately) posts like that keep this thread going...and it is a good topic. I AINT sayin' dont say it...just dial it back a bit 'for the gods of forum hit d' cloze button;)

But yeah............ would love to know *years on the force* from tha' guy; either a TOTAL flinch/wince shot or he's gotta be something resembling a noobie unfortunately. I dont relish the years of lawsuits to follow him....

M. Sage
09-10-2007, 6:39 PM
But yeah............ would love to know *years on the force* from tha' guy; either a TOTAL flinch/wince shot or he's gotta be something resembling a noobie unfortunately.

Err... years on the force shouldn't matter. Finger off the trigger until you've got a target. In fact, that's why you should keep your finger straight until you've got a target - so you don't wince or flinch and kill someone.

eta34
09-10-2007, 6:41 PM
Just for clarity, and not as a defense, this was NOT a no-knock warrant. They gave the proper knock and notice according to the MSNBC article posted before. Here is a quote from that article.

"Officers knocked on the front door and watched through a window as Strickland walked away from the door."

Also, please note he was wanted for robbery, not simple theft. This doesn't change my opinion of the shooting, so LEO-bashers and tinfoil hat wearers, relax.


So, what is the bigger picture exactly, I'd like to know?

The cops could've easily waited for the suspect to come out of the house, hell, have a pizza delivered and have the delivery guy say he won't come to the door because of the dog. There were many more avenues to take than a no knock. So again, what is the bigger picture?

Have a great gun carryin Kenpo day

Clyde

Sniper3142
09-10-2007, 6:50 PM
While the sentiment is understandable...NOT all cops are like that nor (unfortunately) posts like that keep this thread going...and it is a good topic. I AINT sayin' dont say it...just dial it back a bit 'for the gods of forum hit d' cloze button;)

But yeah............ would love to know *years on the force* from tha' guy; either a TOTAL flinch/wince shot or he's gotta be something resembling a noobie unfortunately. I dont relish the years of lawsuits to follow him....

Gee...

I did dial it down?!?

:(

I know not all cops are like that one. I've met some pretty good ones.

But there seems to be a growing us vs. them attitude among police agencies. And this Power Elite status that Politicians and members of Hollywood seem to think they have just adds to the fire.

metalhead357
09-10-2007, 6:54 PM
LOL! Ok Sniper.... I got ya';) no harm/no foul inteneded.


And EXCELLENT point about keeping d' finger off d' trigger....but even in THAT that would show some level of the training (or lack thereof) wouldn't it????;)

KenpoProfessor
09-10-2007, 7:01 PM
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4843228839745442510

This is why the the people are scared of police.

Now try the link

Have a great gun carryin' Kenpo day

Clyde

metalhead357
09-10-2007, 7:06 PM
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...93977759&hl=en

This is why the the people are scared of police.

Have a great gun carryin' Kenpo day

Clyde


noooo workie

hitnrun
09-11-2007, 4:42 AM
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4843228839745442510

This is why the the people are scared of police.

Now try the link

Have a great gun carryin' Kenpo day

Clyde

And this is why people shouldn't make pass judgment absent complete facts of the situation...:rolleyes:


Video 1 (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1881048181043536422)


Video 2 (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=75292382353014760)




The story: http://www.nola.com/crime/shooting.ssf/

See this thread that interestingly enough, not many of you responded to.:rolleyes:

Split Second Decisions (http://64.151.69.37/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=62133)


Some of you guys b*tch and moan about due process for the people at the receiving end of deadly force, but what about the cops that are forced to react in those situations? They don't get due process? They are super human robots trained to be emotionless government assassins? Every time a cop fires a gun and a jury decides it was in lawful self defense, you'll cry BS by default! It's like some of you have become experts analysts of LE shootings based on media articles. Then some will say it is us v. them and whatever else they can blame it on. Maybe it was nothing more than a good shoot and you end up ticked because you can't take your pent up and hateful rage out in a healthy way, so, it becomes easier to dump your emotions on a media article. Remember, there are AT LEAST two sides to every story. When you read only one, why is it your reaction to reject due process for one of the involved parties? They both deserve it no? Some here are eating these Anti-LE ideals and media stories up like the sheep do every time the Brady's speak...and then they turn around and complain about the sheep listening to the Brady's anti gun rhetoric! It's madness! :eek:

M. Sage
09-11-2007, 6:54 PM
Every time a cop fires a gun and a jury decides it was in lawful self defense, you'll cry BS by default!

Not every time. What about the point that the cop fired when he mistook the sound of a battering ram hitting the door for the sound of gunfire? He wasn't fired at.

Not to mention the fact that the whole basis for this raid was bad tactics. Does it sound like a good idea to go after someone who's supposed to be heavily armed in his own home? Or does it sound better to hit him in a traffic stop situation, with the same amount of manpower, two blocks from said home?

The basic facts are that someone pulled a trigger when they shouldn't have and someone died because of it. That the person who pulled that trigger got off scot-free. Oh, and that the decision that this was a "high risk" raid was made based on some pictures of some other guy on that other guy's Myspace page of guns that neither of them even owned.

The officer screwed up big time, so did his superiors and they should be taken to task for it.

tyrist
09-11-2007, 7:00 PM
Trying to stop this guy at a traffic stop instead of serving a warrant at his home is a rediculous idea. If he is in a car he can drive off at high speed and possibly cause worse injury/death to innocent people. There is nothing wrong with serving a felony warrant against a heavily armed person at there own home.

M. Sage
09-11-2007, 7:12 PM
You can grab him on his way to the car, if you prefer. I know the traffic stop thing is done. If you're going to use the kind of manpower that a raid like this needs, it shouldn't be terribly hard to use three or more vehicles and simply box him.

eta34
09-11-2007, 8:34 PM
So you propose boxing in a vehicle that contains an armed suspect? That is an extremely bad tactic. Those men in the cars doing the "boxing" would be less than 15 feet from an armed suspect. The man boxing him in on the passenger side is trapped in his vehicle with no escape route....dead duck.

Serving warrants at homes is completely acceptable. Yes, they could wait for him to exit and take him down that way. There are also "surround and call out" techniques. Letting this guy get in a vehicle is a worst case scenario. Think about what happens when this guy goes in pursuit...pedestrians in danger, chasing officers in danger, other motorists in danger....not good.

ETA: The boxing thing is something I don't see in CA anymore. You see it on those "Wildest Police Chases" where some Kentucky or Arkansas county mountie tries it. Not safe, not done here.

M. Sage
09-11-2007, 8:57 PM
K.

The other way just doesn't sound good either.

No matter how you slice it, starting the shooting when the ram hits the door isn't bright.

artherd
09-12-2007, 1:25 AM
Some of you guys b*tch and moan about due process for the people at the receiving end of deadly force, but what about the cops that are forced to react in those situations? They don't get due process?
I bet my lunch money you would hook me for firing *through a closed door* and killing the WRONG GUY, even if my idoit 5-year old did pop a paper bag that sounded scary... a paper bag I knew in advance he had, and gave to him 5 minuites previous...

COME ON!