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CRTguns
09-06-2007, 10:14 PM
As a matter of law, a gun shop is REQUIRED to facilitate a private party transfer whereupon the buyer and seller request it. A gun shop CANNOT deny or refuse to process a private party transfer. This is a fact...

So, to those shops out there that refuse to import, sell, transfer, offer for sale, or otherwise furnish OLLS, there's a way to MAKE this happen. Take an OLL and your best freind into a store that is not OLL friendly, and make them do a transfer of ownership. This will cause them to have to put an OLL on their books, causing the shop to lose its "OLL-ginity."

Whaddya think?

Can'thavenuthingood
09-06-2007, 10:43 PM
They already have enough gov stuff forced on them, why force them to engage in something they choose not to?

Its their store, they can run it any way they want.

Vick

Ratters
09-06-2007, 11:00 PM
I think there is still enough questions about legality that I bear no ill will on shops that refuse to participate in OLLs. Why force them, there are plenty of other options if they don't want the business.

What pisses me off are shops that refuse transfers because they are busy or have only a small time period during the week where they will do one. I will not shop at such stores.

Zhukov
09-07-2007, 12:46 AM
CRT is right. I actually spoke with the BOF over the phone about this. While the guy said the OLL's are legal, the shop owner could then delay the process while getting a consult from the legal dept of the BOF. But once legal cleared it, the shop would have to do it.

It was a rare circumstance where the guy on the phone at the BOF was 100% honest about everything and didn't misconstrue anything. In fact, he only said to be careful because the OLL could be mistaken as an illegal firearm/unregistered assault weapon.

jumbopanda
09-07-2007, 1:04 AM
I say it's a waste of time. What if they just flat out refuse? Are you going to call the cops? File some sort of complaint? I'd rather just take my money elsewhere and leave store owners to run their businesses as they see fit.

DedEye
09-07-2007, 1:13 AM
I think there is still enough questions about legality that I bear no ill will on shops that refuse to participate in OLLs. Why force them, there are plenty of other options if they don't want the business.

What pisses me off are shops that refuse transfers because they are busy or have only a small time period during the week where they will do one. I will not shop at such stores.

I don't think there's any question about legality, but I also don't bear ill will since I've talked to enough FFLs about the crap they get from the ATF and BOF as it is, and the ones who sell OLLs get reviewed even more thoroughly.

tenpercentfirearms
09-07-2007, 4:43 AM
I don't know, I am kind of irked with shops who treat us as if we are criminals. The DOJ FUD definitely works because just yesterday I was talking to someone who wants wholesale pricing on MMGs, but won't sell OLLs. They said a gun shop in Modesto got shut down because of them. I said, "No actually, they were never shut down over it, and the charges were just dropped." The owner's response was that was good enough to make them to not want to do it and they still weren't going to do it.

But they want to sell MMGs? I don't know I still find the stores not doing this because they are scared kind of irritating. Maybe I just haven't been audited enough to learn a proper respect for my masters. :eek:

Forcing people to PPT OLLs just doesn't seem like a good idea to me. If they want to live in a hole, that is more business for us who choose to exercise our rights.

metalhead357
09-07-2007, 4:49 AM
leave it alone....


let the blind lead the blind; they're missing the cash inflow and if they wanna play sheeple to the stoopidity rule then let them have it thier way. There are enough already willing to do an OLL. Let the unwise remain as so.

tenpercentfirearms
09-07-2007, 4:52 AM
leave it alone....


let the blind lead the blind; they're missing the cash inflow and if they wanna play sheeple to the stoopidity rule then let them have it thier way. There are enough already willing to do an OLL. Let the unwise remain as so.

I like the other thread where people are trying to educate these gun shops, this is a good idea and can't hurt. Trying to force them to do an OLL, not worth your time and effort.

metalhead357
09-07-2007, 4:57 AM
I like the other thread where people are trying to educate these gun shops, this is a good idea and can't hurt. Trying to force them to do an OLL, not worth your time and effort.


I was part of that thread...edumiKation IS a good thing...but when rejection is Stout........just walk away and be done with them; it truly is thier own loss, not ours.

CSACANNONEER
09-07-2007, 5:47 AM
My thoughts on this are simple. THIS IS STILL THE UNTITED STATES OF AMERICA! People should be free to run their bussiness without too much (if any) government intervention. If you don't like the way someone runs their bussiness, you are free to take your bussiness somewhere else. Just because I choose to sell widgets, I should not be required to sell anything else. This same principle can be used with the recent e-bay changes. If you don't like it, GO SOMEWHERE ELSE! But, why try to make life difficult for other Americans?

Pappy91W
09-07-2007, 6:08 AM
I've run into 1 shop near my that is not OLL lower friendly. This is the USA, he can run his business how he wants to, just like I can choose not to shop there.

While I don't personally understand why that guy is so anti OLL, it's not my problem. I'm certainly not going to argue with the guy or try to force him into a transfer of an OLL, I'll just go elsewhere.

Paratus et Vigilans
09-07-2007, 6:21 AM
Personally, I see no benefit to "the cause" in trying to force a reluctant FLL to transfer OLL's, or stock and sell them.

Let the free market do its thing. Customers will vote with their feet and their $$$ and will go where they get the services and products they want and will not go where they don't get them.

I'm all for educating the ignorant. +1 on that. I think that spreading the truth and dispelling FUD is worth the time and effort for all of us. Lead them to the water, and let them drink if they choose. Trying to force it is not something I think would be effective, or appropriate.

It makes me think of the stories in the news lately about people trying to force pharmacists to dispense the morning after pill when they have moral and/or religious opposition to it, since it is in effect a chemical abortion of an embryo. The fact that something is legally available is one thing. Going from that point to the point that you are forcing someone to sell it to you, or transfer it in the case of an OLL PPT, is a whole different story. That offends my sense of one's personal freedoms.

Just MHO, on both issues.

jkasandiego
09-07-2007, 6:37 AM
If the shop is not OLL friendly, go somewhere else. There's a lot of shop will take and transfer OLL. Leave them alone, they know how to run their business..:)

bwiese
09-07-2007, 6:57 AM
I understand y'all's point about not forcing shops to sell what they don't wanna, but then we are kinda sanctioning a violation of the law. Gunshops are *required* to PPT legal firearms.

There actually is no legal question about legality of OLLs, that controversy is just a false position held as underground regulation by DOJ BoF.

In fact I believe with the various attacks by BoF on CA FFLs relating to OLL matters that another nice discussion with OAL is required. Pulling the memo but still enforcing similar underground law just won't fly.

Pappy91W
09-07-2007, 7:48 AM
I understand y'all's point about not forcing shops to sell what they don't want, but then we are kinda sanctioning a violation of the law. Gunshops are *required* to PPT legal firearms.

There actually is no legal question about legality of OLLs, that controversy is just a false position held as underground regulation by DOJ BoF.

In fact I believe with the various attacks by BoF on CA FFLs relating to OLL matters that another nice discussion with OAL is required. Pulling the memo but still enforcing similar underground law just won't fly.

Bill,

I understand what you are saying, are we REALLY sanctioning a violation of the law, or refusing to do business with the bull headed?

The gun shop that I was speaking of (Won't name, won't smear) is adamantly dug in, the guy flat out says to me each time I see him 'Oh, I see your not in jail yet for your OLL, give it time" and then laughs at me. He'll go on and on spewing how "bunch of guys are being arrested and prosecutes for buying OLLs" but refuses to cite cases. He spews this stuff arrogantly, he comes off as he's the all knowing gun guru and likes to humiliate anyone in front of his cronies that disagrees with him. Why would I want to do business with THAT guy when I can drive less than two miles down the road to a gun shop that will accommodate me and treat me like a valued customer and like a friend even though I barely know the guy? The guy further down the road publicly says he won't be bullied by the DOJ, he says he's boned up on the OLL lower regs and it's a non issue, he'll sell it, dros it, transfer it, end of story. He says he's in business to do legal gun business. I like the way the guy further down the road treats me. So, why force guy "A" to do a transfer and make money when guy "B" will do it voluntarily, and treat me like gold?

JawBone
09-07-2007, 8:28 AM
I see both sides of this but I think the real goal is being missed. The aim shouldn't be to harass gun shops into making policy decisions, the goal is to force the DOJ's hand.

If we go into these shops and they refuse to transfer (in violation of the law) then we get a lawyer to write them a letter telling them they are going to be sued as a result.

The gun owner will then contact the DOJ and say "Hey, WTF, you're telling me one thing, and the law says another...I'm not going to get stuck in the middle here so you tell me whether this is or is not legal?" The DOJ then confirms with the Gun Shop, in writing, that OLL's are legal to transfer.

More gun shops feel safe doing transfers, the word spreads and the end result is the DOJ is forced to deal with the actual laws for a change and acknowledge OLL legality.

Is it strong medicine? Yes, but these shops are part of the problem and they should be doing their homework about what is/is not legal instead of breaking the law...so let's make them part of the solution.

simonov
09-07-2007, 9:20 AM
I understand y'all's point about not forcing shops to sell what they don't wanna, but then we are kinda sanctioning a violation of the law. Gunshops are *required* to PPT legal firearms.

So what? As someone else has already pointed out, what are you going to do if they refuse, hold your breath until your face turns blue?

I'm a live and let live kind of guy. Why hassle people who already live with enough unnecessary hassles? And frankly, this being the gun business, quite a large proportion of those who refuse to deal in OLLs are simply *******s I wouldn't want to do business with anyway.

Of course, it's easy for me to talk; I have Ade's, J&J Armory and Ammo Bros all within a 20 minute drive, and Gunrunners and Brite Spot if I don't mind a longer drive.

While I do not favor compulsion, I do wonder what some of these asshats must think when they see all these dudes selling OLLs at gunshows, with no raids by SWAT or the DoJ or any other JBTs.

Zhukov
09-07-2007, 9:56 AM
If the shop refuses to do the PPT, the BOF will send people to the shop and start an investigation.

Basically, they could get in deep crap or risk their license over refusing to do a PPT transfer. They are required by California law to do it. By not, they are in violation of the law.

We have a state that government that has aggressively attacked our 2nd amendment, all I've encouraged is just to fight back by using their own system to help us.

Shops that refuse to follow the law deserve whatever comes to them. Whether it be by improper record keeping or refusing to ppt transfer. Both are violations, both have penalties.

They agreed to all of what we're asking when they obtained their license.

leelaw
09-07-2007, 10:01 AM
While I do not favor compulsion, I do wonder what some of these asshats must think when they see all these dudes selling OLLs at gunshows, with no raids by SWAT or the DoJ or any other JBTs.

They think "man, I wish we could get in on that, but DOJ has directly threatened to pull our MG/AW/DD/etc.. permits if we do because they've got a stick up their butt about OLLs and we're right in their backyard."

If a shop does not choose to deal with OLLs, it's not a black and white "because they're pu**ies and ignorant of reality" situation.

SemiAutoSam
09-07-2007, 10:05 AM
Just intimidated by FUDD. Ohh and the Iggster.

They think "man, I wish we could get in on that, but DOJ has directly threatened to pull our MG/AW/DD/etc.. permits if we do because they've got a stick up their butt about OLLs and we're right in their backyard."

If a shop does not choose to deal with OLLs, it's not a black and white "because they're pu**ies and ignorant of reality" situation.

TonyNorCal
09-07-2007, 10:08 AM
Personally I'd just let it go.

Let's assume one went to a non-friendly OLL shop to try and force an OLL PPT sale. The shop refuses. One then calls the DOJ and tries to force the issue. Well, depending on who one gets on the phone at the DOJ you may or may not get any assistance.

And what happens then? I am assuming most shops that refuse aren't going to pursue the matter with the DOJ. Most likely the shop would simoly say 'they're not legal' or 'we don't do those' and leave it at that.

So, it seems all the effort would be on the part of the buyer. It seems to one would have to call the DOJ, find someone willing to call the shop and tell them it's legal, and also tell them they're required to do it. When dealing with the DOJ this might be a time-consuming and frustrating process.

But, let's just assume one's able to get it all done. The DOJ calls the shop and tells them they must comply. Ok. Now what?

Now one has a shop that's most likely going to be pissed. One goes in and does the PPT transfer. One is probably also a persona non grata there.

And to top it all off, the shop still isn't required to receive OLLs via mail/internet transfers. They are now only required to do PPTs with them. For sent transfers they are still free to do as they please.

Seems to me like it's a lot of effort that will result in lots of frustrated and negative emotional energy. And the end result will be the shop still isn't OLL-friendly for anything other than PPTs. And they likely won't process those with any cheer.

I'd let it go

Red_5
09-07-2007, 10:51 AM
I say educate them with your money.

My "old" shop gave me the run around when I wanted to transfer my first OLL, Trying to tell me that what I wanted to do was illegal. I encouraged them to review the regulations and pointed out that rifles built on OLLs are 100% legal when properly configured. They were quite adamant that it couldn't legally be done.

I now do business with another shop that knows the regulations and has chosen to accept my money.

:cool:

leelaw
09-07-2007, 12:45 PM
Just intimidated by FUDD. Ohh and the Iggster.

You seem to be confused. The threat of pulling the permits are not "FUDD" since they are something they really can pull.

FUDD would be saying that OLLs are illegal or might be illegal. Threatening to pull permits which the shop uses to keep afloat is entirely different.

It'd be similar to an IRS agent threatening to review your tax records, or lack thereof.

CalNRA
09-07-2007, 12:49 PM
Just intimidated by FUDD. Ohh and the Iggster.

Sam, you know I normally agree with much of what you say but from what I know the place Lee works in is one of the better ones I have dealt with. Their permits are completely discretionary and can be pulled anytime, which constitute a big part of their business.

In turn Lee's place provides one of the best place in Norcal to transfer other firearms. I drive 80-90 miles+ each trip to go to him, for what it's worth. I would rather see them open then shut down.

Hey what do I know, I'm just a consumer.

The question essentially come to, would you rather have two dealers in an area, one deals OLL and one doesn't, or have the one who doesn't start dealing it, and then gets their permit pulled and goes out of business and the gun buyers are now left with one less dealer to do transfers with.

OLLs aren't the whole picture and I am more interested to see their shop open and people in Alameda and Contra Costa counties have a place to go for various purchases and PPTs instead of one less choice.

ArmedBear
09-07-2007, 12:52 PM
They already have enough gov stuff forced on them, why force them to engage in something they choose not to?

Its their store, they can run it any way they want.
Well, think about this.

FFL's collect legally-enforced "rent", as in "rent-seeking". See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rent-seeking if this is a new term to you.

There's a huge barrier to entry if you want to open a gun shop in most populated areas, and the FFL is just the start. You and I are legally forced to conduct transactions like private party transfers through an FFL, despite there being costs and no benefits to us in doing so, and we are forced to compensate the FFL for their part in the transaction. Federal, State and local laws limit the competition they have, as well.

That's just something to remember. The FFL benefits financially from gun laws, and we are forced to pay. Many of those gun laws are the laws that infringe on our rights.

Most FFL's are 2nd Amendment supporters. But don't forget that their shops may not even exist if the law didn't limit their competition. What do you think a gun would cost if you could buy one at every store that sells Airsoft guns? A lot less? BINGO.

So, it's not really 100% THEIR store, and they really DON'T have an inherent right to run it exactly how they want. That might not be their fault, either, but it's a fact, nevertheless.

If there is a law that says that all transfers have to go through an FFL, who charges a fee, it is perfectly moral for that law to mandate that said FFL is obligated to handle all legal transfers.

SemiAutoSam
09-07-2007, 12:59 PM
I recall the IRS asks you to provide your tax records if you are scheduled for an audit or other enquiry but nowhere in title 26 have I found any code that requires an individual to keep records.

Also if one does not make themselves liable to pay a tax they are not considered a taxpayer and would be exempt from a number of invalid statutes.


It'd be similar to an IRS agent threatening to review your tax records, or lack thereof.

SemiAutoSam
09-07-2007, 1:05 PM
Are you saying the California DOJ or BATF&E does not need a reason to pull their FFL or any other permit they may have to operate a firearms business ?

I'm not familiar with the shop that Lee works at. Im not a person that would hassle the shop if they dont want to do a OLL transfer. I have plenty of shops in my neck of the woods that will do OLL and other transfers that a lot of shops in my area would not do as they dont realise how these firearms are legal and also are intimidated by DOJ. And dont want to bother to investigate the actual law and understand it.


BTW all I meant by the post you quoted was a lot of shops are intimidated and are threatened by DOJ and dont want to risk it. I totally understand this and would not fault them for being intimidated.



Their permits are completely discretionary and can be pulled anytime, which constitute a big part of their business.

ArmedBear
09-07-2007, 1:19 PM
I totally understand this and would not fault them for being intimidated.


Sure. And remember that what they're really interested in is their legally-enforced income stream, not you or me. Can't blame them, but there's no need to support them, either, if there is any competition in town. Show them what will be good for their business, if it matters to you.

CalNRA
09-07-2007, 3:32 PM
Are you saying the California DOJ or BATF&E does not need a reason to pull their FFL or any other permit they may have to operate a firearms business ?


Sam, you can go back a few posts and see what permits Leelaw was talking about in terms of what they need to operate as a commercial entity. The FFL is technically federally reviewed, which just so happens that the BATFE is trying to reduce the number of FFLs out there. But the other permits, issued by the CA DOJ, from my uneducated understanding, are discretionary and they *could* revoke those permits(not FFL) with relative little reason other than "we don't think it's a good cause".

in short Leelaw wasn't just talking about the FFL when he said "permits". There are other permits out there keep certain FFLs working, just so happens that some of these FFL are a great asset to people in the area.

plus, from what I have seen/heard, the DOJ *could* "point" the ATF in the direction of any dealer without violating the law. Hey, there is "multi-jurisdictional inter-agency" cooperation for ya.

CRTguns
09-07-2007, 7:25 PM
I see both sides of this but I think the real goal is being missed. The aim shouldn't be to harass gun shops into making policy decisions, the goal is to force the DOJ's hand.

If we go into these shops and they refuse to transfer (in violation of the law) then we get a lawyer to write them a letter telling them they are going to be sued as a result.

The gun owner will then contact the DOJ and say "Hey, WTF, you're telling me one thing, and the law says another...I'm not going to get stuck in the middle here so you tell me whether this is or is not legal?" The DOJ then confirms with the Gun Shop, in writing, that OLL's are legal to transfer.

More gun shops feel safe doing transfers, the word spreads and the end result is the DOJ is forced to deal with the actual laws for a change and acknowledge OLL legality.

Is it strong medicine? Yes, but these shops are part of the problem and they should be doing their homework about what is/is not legal instead of breaking the law...so let's make them part of the solution.

That's what I'm Talking about!

CRTguns
09-07-2007, 7:27 PM
Just intimidated by FUDD. Ohh and the Iggster.

What does FUDD and Ohh mean?


I see it as a means to put the OLL in every FFL A&D book in the state- make any action by the DOJ a far reaching and nearly imposible task to execute. The total and unlimited distribution of OLLs would make the DOJ's case, that these are, or can be AWs a very weak argument in a court's eyes.

metalhead357
09-07-2007, 7:38 PM
What does FUDD and Ohh mean?
.


AcronymDefinitionFUDDFear Uncertainty Doubt and Disinformation
http://acronyms.thefreedictionary.com/FUDD


Ohhhhh.

As in Ohhhhhhh SPIT;) at least for here I think it means...... but I've been wrong about Sam before:p you know the OH My god........ nothing other than that that I know of........

SemiAutoSam
09-07-2007, 7:42 PM
The Ohhh was to place emphasis on also IGGY.

As such "Ohh and the Iggster"

What does FUDD and Ohh mean?

I see it as a means to put the OLL in every FFL A&D book in the state- make any action by the DOJ a far reaching and nearly impossible task to execute. The total and unlimited distribution of OLLs would make the DOJ's case, that these are, or can be AWs a very weak argument in a court's eyes.

carsonwales
09-07-2007, 10:40 PM
They already have enough gov stuff forced on them, why force them to engage in something they choose not to?

Its their store, they can run it any way they want.

Vick

Your right and your wrong.

Your right in the sense they can do what they please...but 'they' do so at their ultimate peril.

Zumboism is a disease amongst the firearms community...brought to you by the divisive and fracturing nature of the opponents and the apparently chronic and reprehensible segregationist trends that have infected America.

I wonder what your take is on the pigeon holing of Americans into ever smaller groups: African Americans, Hispanic Americans, Asian Amerricans, Americans of European Descent (White), Men, Women, Gays, Lower Class, Middle Class, Upper Class, Conservatives, Liberals, Republicans, Democrats, Labor, Management etc etc...

You can see what they are doing here can't you? The smaller they can fracture the whole, the easier it will be to create crisis and friction between groups. The easier it is to control the mass.

Guess who will provide the salve and solution to the fabricated crisis...?

Victims...they want to dice and slice us up, and paint all of the sub groups as victims so they can ride in on their white horse and save the day.

Its a sea of wedges...they want to drive wedges between shooting enthusiasts, hunters, self-defense adherants, competition shooters and patriot anti-tyranny second amendment gun owners.

They see fissures and demarcations in a granular sense, and they want to slice and dice us up.

Don't fool yourself.

I expect more...I expect solidarity from the firearms community.

Zumboism is a disease we cannot afford to accept.

United we stand, Divided we fall...

I have read too many letters in gun magazines lately written by hunters calling for an outright abolition on 'assault weapons'.

Rue the day when we are fighting our own...stand strong.

socalguns
09-08-2007, 12:33 AM
I understand both sides, but since they're legally required to do PPTs, there's nothing wrong with politely exercising your rights.
Hows that saying ot "Use it or lose it"

Got Stuff?
09-08-2007, 11:22 AM
Some people are just stupid and ignorant. If shops just don't want to do it, that's fine. But maybe sometimes people need to press the issue to make someone see the light.

For me, it depends on why the shop doesn't want to PPT or sell OLL's. If it's the FUD they are afraid of and we can turn them around I think it's worth it and it benefits everyone in the end.

However, there's no sense in beating a dead horse and at that point it's time to shop elsewhere.

want_ar
09-24-2007, 10:34 PM
This stopped being a "free to do as you please" land a while ago. We have to fight for our rights every single day. So if a local store owner is being a dick and getting in the way of your rights, you have every right to run him into the ground legally. If that means forcing them to do OLL transfers, so be it. We are all in this together. I'm sick and tired of the "we cater to hunters only, we will not deal with gray areas" crap. There is no gray area. OLLs are legal. If you are not willing to deal with that, I will fight you by any legal means necessary. Some of us don't have the time to keep driving hundreds of miles to do our *legal* transfers. If the local guy won't deal with it, he should lose business and perhaps be replaced by someone who will.

Let me tell you about a little drama that happened locally last year. There was a local shop that was doing OLL transfers. This started hurting another store's business. The owner of the rival store had a long standing family feud with the OLL friendly guy. The OLL friendly guy was dumb enough to not be on top of his records and didn't keep them up to date. His rival found out about this and called the BoF/ATF on him. The OLL friendly guy lost his license and was made out to be an "rogue/evil" gun dealer in the media. He was at fault and should have known better. However, the rival is back to charging high prices + treats people who ask him about OLL with contempt.

I'm in no way affiliated to any gun store or dealer, but this sort of stuff hurts gun owners and our rights.

Can'thavenuthingood
09-25-2007, 4:51 AM
I wonder what your take is on the pigeon holing of Americans into ever smaller groups: African Americans, Hispanic Americans, Asian Amerricans, Americans of European Descent (White), Men, Women, Gays, Lower Class, Middle Class, Upper Class, Conservatives, Liberals, Republicans, Democrats, Labor, Management etc etc...


Missed this post when it was fresh.

My take is I'm against the divisivness created by segregating and then pandering to individual enclaves of voters which become the victim of the week. Then the politicians want more of my money to fix the victim they created. We are all Americans, hyphenation begins the pidgeonholing process and the politicians have the consultants working overtime to take advantage of every miscue, unintended slight or perceived prejudice.

My thinking on the FFL that doesn't want to sell or transfer OLL's is that he/she is making that decision from an educated, informed opinion, a business decision. He chooses which way he wants to take his business from a perspective of remaining a healthy business rather than fear of authorities. As a consumer I decide where I'll take my business.

I understand the part about forcing the FFL to partake of the OLL aspects
in order to maintain our rights and insist he get on board, however, now we are forcing him to do something against his will or business plan. I have a problem with that. Where is the line drawn?

If he doesn't want my OLL business, I'll take it to Taft, and the non compliant business will suffer a decline and further decay. He ought to be communicating with DOJ and getting the OLL issues ironed out on paper for his business to succeed. Maybe even enlist the aid of the BATF&E to apply pressure for a final determination in writing.

The guy that called the BoF/BATF&E on a fellow FFL needs to be run out of business. He apparently has no business skills other than to call the authorities and get the law to do his bidding for him.
Thats what is being proposed here is it not? That we use the law to make an FFL do business as we wish?

Coffee is done,

Vick

gunsnrovers
09-25-2007, 5:49 AM
Some stores don't deal with OLL's out of ignorance.

Then you run into FFL's like the one I ran into in San Diego doing a PPT on a revolver. He had AR's in the store so I asked about receiver transfers. I was told the AR's were for his police customers (two officers were in the store comparing the S&W's to the RRA's while I was there) and he didn't believe the public should have rifles like that.

I guess the store name, California Police Equipment, should have been a give away...

That's one shop I'll never set foot in again.

SemiAutoSam
09-25-2007, 6:39 AM
Some stores don't deal with OLL's out of ignorance.

Then you run into FFL's like the one I ran into in San Diego doing a PPT on a revolver. He had AR's in the store so I asked about receiver transfers. I was told the AR's were for his police customers (two officers were in the store comparing the S&W's to the RRA's while I was there) and he didn't believe the public should have rifles like that.

I guess the store name, California Police Equipment, should have been a give away...

That's one shop I'll never set foot in again.


Is this what you meant ?

FortCourageArmory
09-25-2007, 9:40 AM
Let me begin by saying that I am an FFL holder AND OLL-friendly. I have Stags and Spike's Tactial receivers on my shelf right now along with lower parts kits, MMGs, M4 and A2 stocks and, of course, Prince 50 kits. That being said, I find it incredible that some here would want to force a gun store into handling a product line that they may not be interested in handling. Whether it be a business decision, unfamiliarity with the product, or simply fear of repercussions, to force a business owner to deal in a product line YOU want him to is wrong. It's like going into a Ford dealership and demanding that they sell you a new Chevy.

I spent months of my time and six figures of my life savings to get my store open and running. If I had a customer come in and try to force me to do something I didn't want to do (especially if they were being a jackass about it)...well, the outcome wouldn't be pretty. I should ask, how would any of you feel if our positions were reversed? Now I'm not talking about refusing a PPT. I know it's legally required for me to conduct one if requested. I'm talking about trying to force me to carry products I don't want to carry. Just so there's no confusion.

Here's something to remember: You're the consumer!!! You hold the power over the retail store right in your wallet. Exercise that power and go where you will be accomodated. Don't harass an FFL because they don't carry whatever toys you have a hard-on for. They will either learn or lose income to the point they change or go out of business on their own.

Getting off my soapbox now.

want_ar
09-25-2007, 10:20 AM
Here's something to remember: You're the consumer!!! You hold the power over the retail store right in your wallet. Exercise that power and go where you will be accomodated.

Your assumption is that the gun business in CA is a free market. It is not. Local stores monopolize the market because there are very few people who are interested or have the resources to sell guns in this state. This isn't Texas or some such state where there actually is a lot of competition between gun stores. If my local gun store is terrible, I don't have the time or the energy to keep driving 200 miles.

If you give in to the BoF's arm twisting and threats, you are not helping gun owners and hastening the demise of private gun ownership in this state. It is not about "toys." An OLL is not a "toy." It is a statement.

What is worse is that some FFLs have the nerve to lecture gun owners and tell them that they are "going to jail" for buying OLLs. You are equivalent to BoF agents if you spread myths and lies and try to scare honest gun owners interested in exercizing their rights. In this state, it is no longer just a business where you can do what you please. Your actions as a dealer have repercussions on second amendment rights. Sorry if you didn't choose that, but you are part of the fight whether you like it or not. If we keep losing inch by inch, we will be left without rights in a fairly short amount of time. Dividing people into communities is one way of eating away at your rights. "Oh I'm a hunter. All I care about is bolt actions. Who needs those evil black rifles ?" It's a cliche, but when they come for your bolt actions, the OLL people won't be around.

That being said, I am glad that you do actually carry OLLs and help the cause instead of hinder it. Thanks for your perspective and I wish more dealers were like you. Average gun owners who want to exercise their rights are your friends, and not other dealers who will oppose individual rights.

mdhpper
09-25-2007, 10:26 AM
leave it alone....


let the blind lead the blind; they're missing the cash inflow and if they wanna play sheeple to the stoopidity rule then let them have it thier way. There are enough already willing to do an OLL. Let the unwise remain as so.

X's 2 forget the ones that don't, support the ones that do!

boogak
09-25-2007, 2:04 PM
a store does have the right to refuse service to anyone, but if all gun stores started to do olls, it might make a statement favorable toward us.

PIRATE14
09-25-2007, 2:26 PM
They think "man, I wish we could get in on that, but DOJ has directly threatened to pull our MG/AW/DD/etc.. permits if we do because they've got a stick up their butt about OLLs and we're right in their backyard."

If a shop does not choose to deal with OLLs, it's not a black and white "because they're pu**ies and ignorant of reality" situation.

Well the DOJ didn't renew my AW permit and I am still in business..........:chris:

gunsnrovers
09-25-2007, 2:28 PM
Is this what you meant ?

Thanks. Fixed my original post. Too many acronyms. :)

PIRATE14
09-25-2007, 2:34 PM
Some stores don't deal with OLL's out of ignorance.

Then you run into FFL's like the one I ran into in San Diego doing a PPT on a revolver. He had AR's in the store so I asked about receiver transfers. I was told the AR's were for his police customers (two officers were in the store comparing the S&W's to the RRA's while I was there) and he didn't believe the public should have rifles like that.

I guess the store name, California Police Equipment, should have been a give away...

That's one shop I'll never set foot in again.

Let me tell you a story about the CPE........

Technically, we can sell just about any rcvr to a LE guy or they can just buy the rifle in parts and submit their paper work for a permit. Needless to say we sold a "few" to the LE bros in SD county but........apparantly this guy from CPE gets miffed so now the SD LE guys can only buy their weaps from a AW permitted FFL by DEPT policy.......best part is that he wanted to carry some POF rifles and when he talked to POF.....they told him to call CWS cause they won't ship anything into the state of CALI......doesn't matter what permits he has........

It's all about politics so if you want to be a dickhead.....go ahead...;)

PIRATE14
09-25-2007, 2:39 PM
I don't know, I am kind of irked with shops who treat us as if we are criminals. The DOJ FUD definitely works because just yesterday I was talking to someone who wants wholesale pricing on MMGs, but won't sell OLLs. They said a gun shop in Modesto got shut down because of them. I said, "No actually, they were never shut down over it, and the charges were just dropped." The owner's response was that was good enough to make them to not want to do it and they still weren't going to do it.

But they want to sell MMGs? I don't know I still find the stores not doing this because they are scared kind of irritating. Maybe I just haven't been audited enough to learn a proper respect for my masters. :eek:

Forcing people to PPT OLLs just doesn't seem like a good idea to me. If they want to live in a hole, that is more business for us who choose to exercise our rights.

I don't really care if they want to sell/xfer or not but.......that should be their point of record.....it's legal to do but we choose not to sell those types of firearms..........

It's the illegal bull**** has got to go......

There is power in numbers......you guys have proved that.......:chris:

gunsnrovers
09-25-2007, 3:16 PM
Let me tell you a story about the CPE........

Technically, we can sell just about any rcvr to a LE guy or they can just buy the rifle in parts and submit their paper work for a permit. Needless to say we sold a "few" to the LE bros in SD county but........apparantly this guy from CPE gets miffed so now the SD LE guys can only buy their weaps from a AW permitted FFL by DEPT policy.......best part is that he wanted to carry some POF rifles and when he talked to POF.....they told him to call CWS cause they won't ship anything into the state of CALI......doesn't matter what permits he has........

It's all about politics so if you want to be a dickhead.....go ahead...;)

I'm being a dickhead because I think their position that non-LEO's shouldn't own legal rifles is BS?:confused:

PIRATE14
09-25-2007, 4:54 PM
I'm being a dickhead because I think their position that non-LEO's shouldn't own legal rifles is BS?:confused:

No.....I agree w/ ur pos....

I meant that if anyone wanted to be a DH back at any FFL cause they don't want to deal w/ OLL and force them to PPT xfer....go ahead....not just you but anyone in particular.....

bear308
09-25-2007, 5:51 PM
... The FFL benefits financially from gun laws, and we are forced to pay. Many of those gun laws are the laws that infringe on our rights.



Wrong. We no longer entertain a CFD here (so it doesn't affect my shop one way or another), however you are dead wrong. You really think $10 is compensation for the man-hours involved with a PPT?

Crazed_SS
09-25-2007, 6:08 PM
Some stores don't deal with OLL's out of ignorance.

Then you run into FFL's like the one I ran into in San Diego doing a PPT on a revolver. He had AR's in the store so I asked about receiver transfers. I was told the AR's were for his police customers (two officers were in the store comparing the S&W's to the RRA's while I was there) and he didn't believe the public should have rifles like that.

I guess the store name, California Police Equipment, should have been a give away...

That's one shop I'll never set foot in again.

Too bad you had a bad experience.. CPE is a good store and they actually have fair prices for a brick and mortar gun shop. I got my M1A and MC Operator 1911 there. The same guns were $100-200 more at other shops like Discount Gun Mart. The staff is really cool too. They get a lot of wierdos wondering in there off El Cajon Blvd and they treat everyone with respect.

Who told you they didnt think the public should have ARs? Seems kinda hypocritical for them to think that if they're selling M1A/SOCOM rifles to the public.

EDIT: If you need to do OLL stuff, go down to Royal Loan which is about 2-3 miles west of CPE.. also on El Cajon Blvd.

dustoff31
09-25-2007, 6:09 PM
Perhaps the time to remember, or more to the point forget, the shops that don't want to do PPTs or handle OLLs, especially those who want to get in on the MMGs and other accessories, is after the issue is settled.

The tide is turning as we all know. Then everyone will want to jump on the OLL bandwagon. That's when they should be told "We take our business to those who supported us. Where were you when we needed you?"

heyjak
09-25-2007, 6:25 PM
I have mixed feelings about this. I wish some of the shops here in Central Kalifornia would be more bold, but I understand the risk (either real or imagined) that they may have to face. One small mistake in the paperwork, for example, and they open themselves up for harrassment. To some, it's simply not worth it. I am fortunate in that I've found a FFL who is willing to take the risk (either real or imagined). Time will tell where all this is going.
I believe if we all keep the pressure up and (most important) stick together, we may someday see a better climate for the "Black Rifle" hobby. One key to all of this as with other gun issues is education. Teach young people about the safe handling of guns and show them the enjoyment of target shooting and/or hunting and develop their interest. This will go a long way towards preserving our hobby- even in the ultra-liberal climate of Kalifornia. :) (end soapbox):D

metalhead357
09-25-2007, 6:51 PM
You really think $10 is compensation for the man-hours involved with a PPT?

Oh goood lord:rolleyes: I've gone down this route with Wes whenst we were both new here. It doesn't "take hours"...if you know what you are doing and DO it right it takes maybe 20 minutes for a standard PPT on day 1.....and what? another 10 on Day 10. Most employess in the North state would be lucky to be making $10/hr for 30 minutes of work. Stand in your shop and jabber jaw with you for an hour and walk out with nothing I bet I've cost you more than $10 and hour........

But hey......... that aside......... I would agree it is an absolutely inanane & stoooopid law; 100000000X more so for anyone with a hunting licence, CCW, a transcrip showing anything resembling POST training, an HSC, etc...... 10 day cooling off period? as noted many times elsewhere WHAT in god's green earth is gonna stop someone who ALREADY OWNS a gun from using THAT GUN ALREADY OWNED in some nefarious fashion? 10 days my butt.........

its a bass ackwards re-sale tax for no other purpose but to reduce the otherwise lawfull trade that 40+ other states DONT have to deal with:cool:

Now ask me how I REALLY feel:p

gunsnrovers
09-25-2007, 7:41 PM
No.....I agree w/ ur pos....

I meant that if anyone wanted to be a DH back at any FFL cause they don't want to deal w/ OLL and force them to PPT xfer....go ahead....not just you but anyone in particular.....

Cool. Figured it was better to ask you then assume...:cool:

gunsnrovers
09-25-2007, 7:43 PM
Too bad you had a bad experience.. CPE is a good store and they actually have fair prices for a brick and mortar gun shop. I got my M1A and MC Operator 1911 there. The same guns were $100-200 more at other shops like Discount Gun Mart. The staff is really cool too. They get a lot of wierdos wondering in there off El Cajon Blvd and they treat everyone with respect.

Who told you they didnt think the public should have ARs? Seems kinda hypocritical for them to think that if they're selling M1A/SOCOM rifles to the public.

EDIT: If you need to do OLL stuff, go down to Royal Loan which is about 2-3 miles west of CPE.. also on El Cajon Blvd.
Never did catch his name. He was an older guy. You would have thought I asked him where the porn mags where. His look and tone were full of disdain.

I was dressed neatly as I came from work to do the PPT and they knew the guy I was doing the PPT with. Certainly not one of the streetwalkers from the area.

Solidmch
09-25-2007, 8:12 PM
I have been in a few shops in the bay area that have a heart attack if you even mention oll. I have wondered if someone has found them out of compliance on paper work, and told them that they will not violate them as long as they don't do oll. I couldnt figure out what their deal was.OI racked my brain and that was the best I could come up with. I hate lectures from people that are wrong. They gave me one about oll. Told me if I even said it I could leave.

randy
09-26-2007, 3:36 AM
They might have to do PPT but they don't have to do your PPT.

You call the DOJ they show up and the store owner says that one or the other of you gave him a bad feeling I don't think he has to do the transfer. If the store owner doesn't like the way you are dressed he doesn't have to sell you a firearm. It's a guess but I bet they can get away with it.

If they don't want to do it go someplace else.

I don't blame any FFL for not wanting to do it it costs them more $$$ than they make.

metalhead357
09-26-2007, 4:55 AM
...... it costs them more $$$ than they make.


HOW do you figure that? Its state mandated & it is a bass akwards way of getting potential cleients in the door. They do make money...arguably it is a pittance in comparison to selling a firearm; but then again-- the guy that just walked in to do a PPT is now in your store and a potential for another sale on anything from a gun case to ammo, reloading equip to whatever. And wow...a whole 20 minutes went by while the PPT was done. Guess the FFL coulda been standing there instead clientless playing pocket pool making money....doing inventory making money....jabber jawing about the asinine laws making money; OH WAIT- they dont make money doing those things:p About THE ONLY argument that I come close to buying is that a high frequency place into a LOT of PPT's IS arguably loosing Safe/shelf space that coulda gone to new weapons.

The PPT system simply forces the law-abbiding to kneel to one more government intrusion. It DOES bring cleints into the stores though and the FFL does get SOMETHING for thier troubles. Those places that do a decent job of doing them I frequent often and buy things; those that whine about how they're not making money on the PPT I just take my biz...all my biz that woulda gone to them to somewhere else.....

bear308
09-27-2007, 11:33 AM
the problem is that it's not thirty minutes. For you or most of the calgunners it might average thirty minutes. However, for the casual buyer it can take much longer than that. If you do everything correctly the first time than sure thirty minutes. But when I have to handhold someone through every step it takes much longer. Oh, and man-hours is a term regarding total payroll time spent dealing with a situation, could be a half man hour.

If you run a business on direct compensation vs payroll spent you'd be in the ground in days. My employees need to bring in much more than what they make for this to be profitable, as in any business. One employee making $10 an hour needs to be bringing in much more than $20 and hour. Sorry to burst your bubble, but ppt's don't make money.

Now you are correct about the fact that I now have someone in my store, that might buy some other stuff. As a point of fact every time I do a PPT I buy something from the store I'm at. However, not everyone thinks that way, many people are already pissed about the process to begin with. Some people have been sent away from their normal store for whatever reason, and are just there to do the ppt and get out.

Look we all agree most of the laws are pointless, I just don't see the need to force things on a business when you can take it somewhere else. If you feel so strongly about it, find a small storefront, get an FFL and PPT all the OLLs you want. According to your argument you'll be rolling in dough in a couple of days.

BaronW
09-27-2007, 12:18 PM
I say my transfers and my money should go to shops that support OLLs, why force money into the hands of shops that don't want my business? I'd MUCH rather support Ade's or Ammo Bros than use a technicality to make someone else facilitate a PPT.

metalhead357
09-27-2007, 3:35 PM
If you feel so strongly about it, find a small storefront, get an FFL and PPT all the OLLs you want. According to your argument you'll be rolling in dough in a couple of days.

As noted earlier...I Am much a proponet of simply walking away from them FFL's that wont do it; let 'em hovel together and die off needlessly over underground regs spewed as truth almighty. I'll spend my duckets on FFL's that are worth thier worth;)

To note: Absolute FASTEST PPT was with a transfer here from another member and his rec of a FFL who quite litterally had my head spinning...Did it in SEVEN MINUTES on the first round:eek: Took longer to read the questions out loud/answer than the resst of the paperwork; he had a nice/neat little cheat sheet checkoff card so he wouldn't miss anything. Day 10 pick up was faster than I could imagine.

So truth be told; I can guess/agree that a noob behind the counter and a noob to PPT's would certainly take longer...... but how long? and HOUR:confused:

It might be cool to see if the millpetus FFL would chime in as to what his average time(s) were for the Group buys. IIRC he was scheduling peeps every 15 minutes; So if'n thats the case that'd be $40 an hour for meer paperwork.........dont know too many paper pushers that make that;)

JCG
09-27-2007, 5:06 PM
This is my point of view on this. In the SF Bay area we have a number of gun shops that are without FFL's right now because of what amounted to a BATFE witchhunt.

I can speak from personal experience, that you can own a legal gun, yet be arrested and charged with owning an illegal gun. Your choice is to spend ALOT of your own money to fight a legal fight.

To add to this, gun stores are operating on a tight profit margin, due to the fact that many gun owners will order on-line to save a few bucks, rather than support the local gun store.........

Do I agree with not being OLL friendly? No. Do I understand why they don't... to protect their business, and not incur legal fees they may not be able to afford? 100%

bear308
09-27-2007, 6:43 PM
So truth be told; I can guess/agree that a noob behind the counter and a noob to PPT's would certainly take longer...... but how long? and HOUR:confused:

It might be cool to see if the millpetus FFL would chime in as to what his average time(s) were for the Group buys. IIRC he was scheduling peeps every 15 minutes; So if'n thats the case that'd be $40 an hour for meer paperwork.........dont know too many paper pushers that make that;)


Let's not start slinging the noob crap too much. I had my paperwork skills down, but when someone has to be hand held thru an entire 4473 it takes time. Maybe fifteen minutes, then (for a pistol) you have all the HSC BS. Everytime the comes back with a non state approved proof of res, it takes more time. For a rifle, sure it will take a little less. I have done ppt's in ten minutes total. What I am talking about is that it's not the NORM. Guys that a buying off list generally know the paperwork, but not everyone.

And again you stated it was for "profit" that means it covers everything. Workers comp, insurance, utilities, rent, payroll, plus a little left over for profit. All I am saying is that ppt's are not profitable to the dealer, in and of themselves. If our employees brought in $40 an hour while open and on the clock we would go broke real fast.

metalhead357
09-27-2007, 9:25 PM
Let's not start slinging the noob crap too much. .........

And again you stated it was for "profit" that means it covers everything. Workers comp, insurance, utilities, rent, payroll, plus a little left over for profit. All I am saying is that ppt's are not profitable to the dealer, in and of themselves.

If our employees brought in $40 an hour while open and on the clock we would go broke real fast.

Noob comments meant for the noobs; Not you as it seems you're not- so apologies if I offended- not my intention to have done so.

__________________________________________________ __________

So what is Fair? Here's your chance to tell the world......... what is a fair markup on the cost of paperwork for a PPT to "make it worth your while"???????

__________________________________________________ ______

I think you mispoke the last bit; If employees were ONLY bringing in $40/hour...then yes...I can see that. But if One employee is bringing $40 and hour while the other gomers behind the counter are jabber jawing and playing pocket pool how much are THAY costing you per hour??????

bear308
09-28-2007, 2:16 PM
Noob comments meant for the noobs; Not you as it seems you're not- so apologies if I offended- not my intention to have done so.

__________________________________________________ __________

So what is Fair? Here's your chance to tell the world......... what is a fair markup on the cost of paperwork for a PPT to "make it worth your while"???????

__________________________________________________ ______

I think you mispoke the last bit; If employees were ONLY bringing in $40/hour...then yes...I can see that. But if One employee is bringing $40 and hour while the other gomers behind the counter are jabber jawing and playing pocket pool how much are THAY costing you per hour??????

no problem, little testy yesterday.

To make it worth my while it would be 25 or so, but I actually think the 10 is fair as it is. Maybe even less. We always did ppt's and thought of them as a tax on new sales. We had to do them if we wanted to sell. I'd have to do more number crunching, but my employees average a hell of a lot more than $50 an hour in intake.

The thing is I don't have employees sitting around jacking with the customers all day. Sure once in a while we have a slow day, but if we have employees sitting around on their duff, than we have one too many working that shift. y employees time is valuable to them and our bussiness over and above that $50 an hour intake that I mentioned. My only thing is that it is not done for profit. My view on them was always a tax on our new firearms sales.