PDA

View Full Version : The Lingering Effects of Iggy's Obfuscation


carsonwales
09-06-2007, 5:26 PM
FUDD: Fear Uncertainty Doubt and Disinformation

Today I witnessed first hand the depth and breadth of FUDD created by Iggy's earlier campaign to stem the tide, which is now a Tsunami, of Off List Lowers being imported into the state.

The reverberations of those attempted underground regulation echo across the California retail FLL landscape like a bad song. Everywhere I go, and invariably, I hear Iggy's earlier disingenuous and fallacious memos parroted back to me.

So many people to educate and so little time.

Today I paid a visit to Marin Firearms in hopes of catching up with a friend who used to own Bullseye shooting range; he was the ranges founder. I heard through the grapevine that he worked at Marin Firearms after selling Bullseye.

The main reason for my visit was to sound the depth and breadth of ignorance at the shop concerning OLL's. My business partner had stopped by the other day and mentioned OLL's to the shop staff.

The mere mention of OLL's by my business partner was as if someone had unleashed a drum of radioactive waste. The words felony, prosecution, arrest and jail time came spewing forth from the staff like a Marine bombardment of Falujah.

"We don't want that kind of trouble around here!"

Knowing that my friend (the prior range owner) might be there, I stopped by the shop today in a hope of bringing them up to speed on the issues, the dynamic nature of things, and to probe the extent of FUDD.

Surely my friend was more informed than the other members of the staff who had spoken to my partner?

Talking about OLL's is like opening an old can of tuna. You just don't know how its going to end up smelling. So I eased into it...I opened the can slowly.

Through the ensuing course of the conversations, it became apparent that this shop wanted nothing to do with OLL's. They insisted that though it was legal to buy the lower, you could not build a gun from it. Nobody in the store had ever heard of bullet buttons, prince locks, mag-locks, or stocks without pistol grips.

One of the fellows in the shop insisted that 'prosecution and confiscation' was imminent! I had an exchange with this same fellow about high capacity magazines. I tried to explain to him that the purchase of them was not illegal, and it was the sale that was regulated. He grew quite vociferous in claiming I was wrong. I tried to enter a wager with him for a case of .223 if he was so 'sure'. He declined.

As things wound down I went outside alone with my friend, and began to right the ship. I had grown weary of the fusillade of false assumptions and hearsay from the staff inside.

I explained bullet buttons in detail, the grip-less stock options and the finer details of the law regarding high capacity magazines. We talked about the 'memos' and Calguns...on parting I promised to bring him some printed information so that at the very least, the staff could be more informed.

The sad part of this story is that this type of reaction or attitude is more prevalent than not West of the East Bay hills.

Like I said before...so many to educate, so little time....

bwiese
09-06-2007, 5:30 PM
Carson,
Let's not get too far ahead of ourselves on hicap mags until a bit more research is done, OK?

Otherwise the rest of what you write is good.

BTW, it's not just Iggy, it's the whole DOJ BoF. BoF's leader, Will Cid, is yet another dude on retirement path cruise control and the inmates are running the asylum.

Iggy himself is a special piece of work given the apparent multiple perjuries, approvals-du-jour, and complete lack of supervision.

carsonwales
09-06-2007, 5:33 PM
Carson,
Let's not get too far ahead of ourselves on hicap mags until a bit more research is done, OK?



Roger that Boss.

I am going to take Prince 50 and BB to the shop next week and show it to these guys...

And print out the part about a bullet being a tool...

And the memo to the LEO that you and Gene did...several copies...

Baby steps

SemiAutoSam
09-06-2007, 5:41 PM
Show them Pics of my lock as well if you like.

Pics are in the thread linked to in my sig line.

Good luck with FUDD.

Hope you prevail.

Roger that Boss.

I am going to take Prince 50 and BB to the shop next week and show it to these guys...

And print out the part about a bullet being a tool...

And the memo to the LEO that you and Gene did...several copies...

Baby steps

carsonwales
09-06-2007, 5:45 PM
Show them Pics of my lock as well if you like.

Pics are in the thread linked to in my sig line.

Good luck with FUDD.

Hope you prevail.

Roger that....Will be taking a picture of your lock, and the grip-less stocks...as well as two examples of the BB and Prince...

My friend who owned the range has a cabin north of Clear Lake where we go shooting in winter...he was happy to see me, gave me his number and expressed more than a casual interest to join us on one of our 'adventures'.

edit:

Incidentally....FUDD should be FUDDD when used in context with CA-BOF: Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt and DELIBERATE Disinformation

capitol
09-06-2007, 5:49 PM
Thanks for making the effort.

metalhead357
09-06-2007, 5:55 PM
I'd LOVE to make BIG swaths of truthfulness out there but there ARE just toooooo many closed to the idea as they've been beaten senseless with years of FUDD laws and anything resmebling the illustrious AW and they tuck tail and run.

Small doeses....small doeses seems to work for me when talking to the unitiated;)

hoffmang
09-06-2007, 6:27 PM
Credit to Bill where it is fully due. Bill wrote the "Cop" memo.

I wrote this with some editing from oaklander and the_quark:
http://www.hoffmang.com/firearms/oal/Underground_Rulemaking_Important_Notice-2007-07-11-04-public.pdf

You can let them read mine and tell them that the memo in question disappeared about 4 days after they received this...

-Gene

wilit
09-06-2007, 8:23 PM
I'm amazed as to how many FFL's out there don't know the legalities of the products they sell. On one instance I tried to have a local FFL purchase a PA-63 for me from J&G Sales. This is how the conversation went down:

Me: Hi, I'm interested in buying one of these, can you order one for me? (show his J&G add with a big CA APPROVED below the pic)
Him: Nope. I don't even think it's on the approved list.
Me: Actually it is. I just checked earlier today.
Him: Oh, well, I don't keep up with stuff like that.

WTF?! You don't keep up with the laws that govern your business? That was the last time I went in that shop. What sucks is, my friend is REALLY good friends with this guy and he keeps trying to get me to spend money at his shop. I just keep telling him "next time."

artherd
09-06-2007, 9:28 PM
The simple fact is; you have to be an attorney just to own a gun in CA these days, must sell them.

I live just north of the Marin area, I'd be happy to bring in my JP and drop some knowledge :D

adamsreeftank
09-06-2007, 9:40 PM
One thing to keep in mind is that, even if they don't get prosecuted for selling OLLs, FFLs have a lot to loose by dealing with them. Since the DOJ and ATF is intent on shutting them all down anyways, most want to keep a lower profile. They are also worried about "stings" so they may want to make a show of distancing themselves from the whole OLL deal.

Case in point, there are several local FFLs I know of that deal in OLLs who are willing to deal with varying degrees of risk meaning guns in varying degrees of completeness. Most are OK with stripped receivers, but not built CA-legal guns. The two exceptions are/were SJGE and Irvington. As most know, SJGE got "audited" and lost their FFL. Irvington is the last one and they are very conservative in other parts of their opperations.

hoffmang
09-06-2007, 9:44 PM
SJGE's audit was ATF related and had absolutely nothing to do with handling legal guns that CA DOJ doesn't like. The Feds really don't care much about CA laws and are in fact kept from reporting violations of state laws by an FFL from an inspection.

-Gene

Addax
09-06-2007, 10:10 PM
There are some gunshop owners who are so paranoid about losing everything if they deal with the OLL/OLR's.

Many of them still read the memos pushed out by IGGY and Team:rolleyes: and swear that since it is written on an official DOJ letter head that whatever the DOJ says is the law....

Ignorance is a way of life for those who are made to live in fear.

carsonwales
09-06-2007, 10:58 PM
That was the last time I went in that shop. What sucks is, my friend is REALLY good friends with this guy and he keeps trying to get me to spend money at his shop. I just keep telling him "next time."

Sounds like an opportunity to me.

Iggy is the dutch boy with his finger in the dike...we are the ones raising the water level.

Like it or not...all of us regular 'common' posters on the 2A thread are soldiers. We are the day to day enlisted dog-faces in this fight. We have a job..we are the trench level ambassadors of the 'word'...

Some days I love it...other days its like work...

You have to take it to the street...talking about it here is only half the battle...

Give this guy another shot...print some stuff out and see if he has an open mind...

Can't hurt...keep your powder dry...lots of battles in front of us.

artherd
09-06-2007, 11:04 PM
One thing to keep in mind is that, even if they don't get prosecuted for selling OLLs, FFLs have a lot to loose by dealing with them. Since the DOJ and ATF is intent on shutting them all down anyways, most want to keep a lower profile. They are also worried about "stings" so they may want to make a show of distancing themselves from the whole OLL deal.
Justify it however you like, it's still cowardice at it's core. Understandable cowardice; perhaps. But cowardice nonetheless.

Case in point, there are several local FFLs I know of that deal in OLLs who are willing to deal with varying degrees of risk meaning guns in varying degrees of completeness. Most are OK with stripped receivers, but not built CA-legal guns. The two exceptions are/were SJGE and Irvington. As most know, SJGE got "audited" and lost their FFL. Irvington is the last one and they are very conservative in other parts of their opperations.
I don't belive SJGE's 'audit' was related to OLLs in any way. I belive Hector/CWS sells full rifles as well as many others.

carsonwales
09-06-2007, 11:22 PM
Justify it however you like, it's still cowardice at it's core. Understandable cowardice; perhaps. But cowardice nonetheless.


Cowardice?..Not sure about that...but....I think they are disingenuous and irresponsible, and their attempts are nothing more than ignorant and short sighted attempts of self preservation

It reeks of being Zumbo'ed...

Message to FFL's.....United we stand, divided we fall.

CW

adamsreeftank
09-07-2007, 1:43 AM
...I don't belive SJGE's 'audit' was related to OLLs in any way. I belive Hector/CWS sells full rifles as well as many others.

Maybe not, but SJGE lost its FFL and Old Sac Armory is still in business. You do the math...

Ford8N
09-07-2007, 4:14 AM
There are some gunshop owners who are so paranoid about losing everything if they deal with the OLL/Or.

Many of them still read the memos pushed out by IGGY and Team:rolleyes: and swear that since it is written on an official DOJ letter head that whatever the DOJ says is the law....

Ignorance is a way of life for those who are made to live in fear.

If you meet a FFL that thinks that the DOJ letter head is the law then give them this...http://www.hoffmang.com/firearms/DOJ-large-cap-magazines-2005-11-10.pdf

It's signed by you know who.


Not many brick and mortar shops deal with OLL from what I have seen. You have to ask. Some just want to keep a low profile and will only order if you want. Others just about crucify you for even asking. The old "everyone is going to go to jail one of these days" speech. I saw this poor kid getting railed by a FFL at a gun shop for asking about OLL's and all the Fudd's standing there soaking it up like this guy was an expert at gun law. Pretty sad, because that kid is the next generation of gun enthusiast that will carry on the Second Amendment and this FFL was spewing the anti-gun vitriol about OLL's. I just tell everone to go to Calguns and read.

Pappy91W
09-07-2007, 6:20 AM
I am not surprised at any of this. Iggy scares people with his disinformation backed by threat of criminal prosecution and civil suits. Iggy and his team of thugs made genuine pests of themselves at Cold War Shooters when the OLL drive first gained momentum. Iggy reached all the way to the Midwest to suppliers and manufacturers and threatened them with prosecution and law suits, Iggy says whatever Iggy wants, he gets away with it, he operates nearly above the law. Of course there will be those that fall for it or are just two scared to challenge it. Iggy is nearly promising to open up the gates of hell to anyone that challenges him on the OLL issue and similar. Until Iggy and Alison can be successfully held accountable within the law for their actions, there will be those that will believe the likes of Iggy. Including cops and FFLs, especially when official looking documents with DOJ letterhead are circulated promising demise to so called offenders of DOJ policy, it looks real enough to believe it's the law in those that don't "know better". It's sad, but it's reality that it happens.

bwiese
09-07-2007, 7:37 AM
Maybe not, but SJGE lost its FFL and Old Sac Armory is still in business. You do the math...

Old Sac Armory may not have had a few trivial errors on 4473s during their audit, regardless of their favored relationship with Iggy.

A CA firearms dealer can lose his licenses in two major ways: due to ATF violations, in which his FFL is pulled, or the CA DOJ can pull his state permit even if ATF is happy. They are fairly separate/independent: just because one is happy doesn't mean the other is.

762cavalier
09-07-2007, 8:40 AM
SJGE lost its FFL and Old Sac Armory is still in business. You do the math...

Hmmm, sounds like fuzzy math to me:rolleyes:

simonov
09-07-2007, 9:29 AM
Through the ensuing course of the conversations, it became apparent that this shop wanted nothing to do with OLL's. They insisted that though it was legal to buy the lower, you could not build a gun from it. Nobody in the store had ever heard of bullet buttons, prince locks, mag-locks, or stocks without pistol grips.

These guys are all dumb as a box of hammers, and crappy businessmen to boot.

Unless their guns are very expensive, they aren't making much money selling firearms. The money is in accessories, consumables like ammunition and cleaning supplies, etc.

The BEST money in the business is selling AR-15 bling: uppers, stocks, grips, rails, LPKs, triggers, etc. Sell a guy a lower for a couple bucks profit, you now have a continuous stream of high margin business, coming into your shop weekly to buy all kinds of AR-15 crap, especially in a high income area like Marin.

Why these morons want to walk away from that is beyond my comprehension.