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turinreza
09-06-2007, 9:12 AM
Philosophically speaking a defensive race which employs only
defensive technology (such as the Gungans from Star Wars
whose shield technology was the best but was only useful
for defense) should be considered peaceful and non threatening...
so why should a person who just wants to focus on being
totally defensive without using a firearm as a defense not be
able to purchase body armor? If more people, say students
on campus, wore body armor during a "rampage" more of them
could run away and have a better chance of survival. Sure,
combining guns and body armor makes the shooter "last longer"
but don't existing laws make criminals have super advantages
(like having both automatic weapons and body armor) make it
more unfair to those who abide by the law? If a criminal faced
more people who had body armor and a hand gun then the
chance of the criminal succeeding falls way short. At least for
body armor there is less chance for someone who has no
or little training to hurt someone else.. so why ban body armor?

toolman9000
09-06-2007, 9:17 AM
illegal only when used in commission of a crime, not for law abiding citizens.

turinreza
09-06-2007, 9:27 AM
illegal only when used in commission of a crime, not for law abiding citizens.

so why can't regular people get armor like dragonskin?
if it's the best of the best anyone should be able to get it
especially people who just want defensive stuff like armor?

69Mach1
09-06-2007, 9:28 AM
I think it might by illegal for felons to posses also. If you're in So.Cal, go to either the Ontario or Costa Mesa gun shows. There's at least one company always there scaring people into buying their body armor.

I might pick one up myself, just for the range trips to Burro on the weekends.:D

ocabj
09-06-2007, 9:54 AM
so why can't regular people get armor like dragonskin?
if it's the best of the best anyone should be able to get it
especially people who just want defensive stuff like armor?

Companies can opt to not sell to the public. Considering the primary market for DragonSkin is going to be the military, I see why they are focusing on Gov't contracts right now. Why waste time and resources to sell their body armor to Joe Blow on the Internet via some online store? I'm sure eventually some distributor/vendor will place a contract order for some DragonSkin body armor and resell to the public.

toolman9000
09-06-2007, 10:05 AM
Does violating the speed limit qualify as "commission of a crime?"

IE if you drive 56MPH while wearing body armor could you be convicted of a felony?


maybe it's commission of a "violent crime"?

---
I think it might by illegal for felons to posses also.

I think you are right

-------

-toolman9000

Neil McCauley
09-06-2007, 10:24 AM
I think it might by illegal for felons to posses also. If you're in So.Cal, go to either the Ontario or Costa Mesa gun shows. There's at least one company always there scaring people into buying their body armor.

I might pick one up myself, just for the range trips to Burro on the weekends.:D

Puhlease, that asian guy thats always saying body armor will be illegal is a *****. I wouldn't recommend anyone buying anything from his *****. Last time I talked to him he started threatening me about buying SAPI plates that aren't from him, saying things like I was going to jail and what not. What a dill.

AJAX22
09-06-2007, 10:34 AM
If you have enough cash you can buy any armour you want.

the draggon scale stuff just has more sales than they have production capacity so they opt to sell to law enforcement and military.

you can still get it through roundabout channels, it just costs more. (thats capitalism)

Anthonysmanifesto
09-06-2007, 11:00 AM
12370. (a) Any person who has been convicted of a violent felony,
as defined in subdivision (c) of Section 667.5, under the laws of the
United States, the State of California, or any other state,
government, or country, who purchases, owns, or possesses body armor,
as defined by Section 942 of Title 11 of the California Code of
Regulations, except as authorized under subdivision (b), is guilty of
a felony, punishable by imprisonment in a state prison for 16
months, or two or three years.
(b) Any person whose employment, livelihood, or safety is
dependent on the ability to legally possess and use body armor, who
is subject to the prohibition imposed by subdivision (a) due to a
prior violent felony conviction, may file a petition with the chief
of police or county sheriff of the jurisdiction in which he or she
seeks to possess and use the body armor for an exception to this
prohibition. The chief of police or sheriff may reduce or eliminate
the prohibition, impose conditions on reduction or elimination of the
prohibition, or otherwise grant relief from the prohibition as he or
she deems appropriate, based on the following:
(1) A finding that the petitioner is likely to use body armor in a
safe and lawful manner.
(2) A finding that the petitioner has a reasonable need for this
type of protection under the circumstances.
In making its decision, the chief of police or sheriff shall
consider the petitioner's continued employment, the interests of
justice, any relevant evidence, and the totality of the
circumstances. It is the intent of the Legislature that law
enforcement officials exercise broad discretion in fashioning
appropriate relief under this paragraph in cases in which relief is
warranted. However, this paragraph may not be construed to require
law enforcement officials to grant relief to any particular
petitioner. Relief from this prohibition does not relieve any other
person or entity from any liability that might otherwise be imposed...


12022.2. (a) Any person who, while armed with a firearm in the
commission or attempted commission of any felony, has in his or her
immediate possession ammunition for the firearm designed primarily to
penetrate metal or armor, shall upon conviction of that felony or
attempted felony, in addition and consecutive to the punishment
prescribed for the felony or attempted felony, be punished by an
additional term of 3, 4, or 10 years. The court shall order the
middle term unless there are circumstances in aggravation or
mitigation. The court shall state the reasons for its enhancement
choice on the record at the time of the sentence.
(b) Any person who wears a body vest in the commission or
attempted commission of a violent offense, as defined in subdivision
(b) of Section 12021.1, shall, upon conviction of that felony or
attempted felony, in addition and consecutive to the punishment
prescribed for the felony or attempted felony of which he or she has
been convicted, be punished by an additional term of one, two, or
five years. The court shall order the middle term unless there are
circumstances in aggravation or mitigation. The court shall state
the reasons for its enhancement choice on the record at the time of
the sentence.
(c) As used in this section, "body vest" means any
bullet-resistant material intended to provide ballistic and trauma
protection for the wearer.

AKman
09-06-2007, 11:49 AM
Most violent felons can't read or could care less about breaking another law.

Two to the chest, pause, one to the head.

Then again, I might have to buy a guy a beer if he can get up after two .480 rounds (410 gr) to the chest, even with the best body armor. What does 7.62 NATO do to this body armor?

Its a lot cheaper to duck and cover...

savasyn
09-06-2007, 12:44 PM
Cool, so it's legal for law abiding people to buy, own and wear body armor. What are some good brands to look at?

I was told that you couldn't get 2nd Chance armor unless you were law enforcement or some other such designated "good guy". Is that still true?

What are the different types(protection levels) available these days?

Thanks!

ghettoshecky
09-06-2007, 1:43 PM
Thats really sad that a convicted felon cannot wear body armor. Sure they had a bad past, but I think that would be a big reason for them to wear body armor. Body Armor can't kill anyone unless you somehow shoot it at 250mph or suffocate someone with it. If supposedly the body armor will protect them in a crime, then the crime should be enough to convict them. I don't see why a guy who has served his time should be prevented from owning something that is intrinsically defensive. gawd I hate our politicians who'll do anything to make a show.

AKman
09-06-2007, 1:55 PM
Perhaps you missed that little incident at the Burbank B of A?

bwiese
09-06-2007, 2:13 PM
Turinreza,

What idiots made you think body armor is illegal?

The doofuses at gun shows quotiing a proposed law by DiFi 1.5 decades ago?\

Go buy your body armor and trauma plates if you care to.

sigguy552
09-06-2007, 2:52 PM
Dragonskin is a sham and doesn't work. NIJ has removed their armor from the certified list and they are being investigated by the Inspector General for fraudulent claims made during the procurement process. The owner will probably have a federal indictment in his lap by the end of this year or next year if he's lucky. Stay away from their crap as it does not work.

Forestboy
09-06-2007, 2:58 PM
What are some good brands to look at?

Dyneema is the latest and greatest. Better than Kevlar for soft body armor.


http://www.alaudacenturion.com/dyneema.html


We shot a dyneema vest with the blended metal( http://www.rbcd.net/ ) rounds this spring and it wouldn't penetrate the dyneema vest.

ibanezfoo
09-06-2007, 4:19 PM
I think it might by illegal for felons to posses also. If you're in So.Cal, go to either the Ontario or Costa Mesa gun shows. There's at least one company always there scaring people into buying their body armor.

I might pick one up myself, just for the range trips to Burro on the weekends.:D

Haha yeah they always have letters and copies of supposed pending laws that are going to outlaw the armor. They've been doing that as long as I've been going to gun shows....


-Bryan

moulton
09-06-2007, 4:42 PM
http://www.ultimatesurvival.com/product_view.cfm?product_line_ID=132
this is the stuff I bought from a guy in arkansas... to bad I couldnt buy it straight from the company

adamsreeftank
09-06-2007, 4:42 PM
Dyneema is the latest and greatest. Better than Kevlar for soft body armor.


http://www.alaudacenturion.com/dyneema.html


We shot a dyneema vest with the blended metal( http://www.rbcd.net/ ) rounds this spring and it wouldn't penetrate the dyneema vest.

So what would you recommend for a good covert level IIIA Dyneema vest?

Crazed_SS
09-06-2007, 4:45 PM
Dragonskin is a sham and doesn't work. NIJ has removed their armor from the certified list and they are being investigated by the Inspector General for fraudulent claims made during the procurement process. The owner will probably have a federal indictment in his lap by the end of this year or next year if he's lucky. Stay away from their crap as it does not work.

I've heard this from a few places, but then I watched "Future Weapons" and "Mail Call" and it looked pretty convincing. I'm wondering where the discrepancy lies. Is the stuff just not consistent or what?

STAGE 2
09-06-2007, 4:53 PM
If you do some research, there are allegations that whoever was conducting the testing for dragonskin "tweaked" things so it would not pass. I beliebe that the company is petitioning for a retest.

What exactly this means I dont know. What I do know is that budgets have much more to do with which troops get issued what than the actual quality of equipment. I also know that issuing newer better armor to the troops would cost an arm and a leg.

And I too saw the demos of this stuff on the history channel. Sure its TV, but I don't think the gunny would pull a fast one.

metalhead357
09-06-2007, 6:23 PM
If you do some research, there are allegations that whoever was conducting the testing for dragonskin "tweaked" things so it would not pass. I beliebe that the company is petitioning for a retest.



yep. Military WONT allow its use and about a year ago an investigation launched due to some Col. using it WHILE ON TV...or at least some of his men were caught wearing it; basically said "I didn't get the memo". But yeah....dragon skin would be nice if they started Civi sales...........

dw1784
09-06-2007, 6:32 PM
Dragonskin is a sham and doesn't work. NIJ has removed their armor from the certified list and they are being investigated by the Inspector General for fraudulent claims made during the procurement process. The owner will probably have a federal indictment in his lap by the end of this year or next year if he's lucky. Stay away from their crap as it does not work.

think they were pulled by the NIJ earlier but it's been certified again and on 8/20 it passed NIJ level III and manufactuer's 6 year warrenty claim.
http://www.defensereview.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1043

tyrist
09-06-2007, 6:33 PM
Body armor is legal unless you are a felon or about to commit a felony.

grywlfbg
09-06-2007, 7:14 PM
Cool, so it's legal for law abiding people to buy, own and wear body armor. What are some good brands to look at?

I was told that you couldn't get 2nd Chance armor unless you were law enforcement or some other such designated "good guy". Is that still true?

What are the different types(protection levels) available these days?

Thanks!

I haven't bought from these folks but there's a lot of good info on the site:

http://www.bulletproofme.com/

turinreza
09-06-2007, 7:21 PM
Turinreza,

What idiots made you think body armor is illegal?

The doofuses at gun shows quotiing a proposed law by DiFi 1.5 decades ago?\

Go buy your body armor and trauma plates if you care to.

some other website (non california) .. just assumed it'd be worse
over here.. :/

that's good news...

let's have a Million man Body Armor march!!
to the steps of the capitol!
see what happens ;)

hehe

Dont Tread on Me
09-06-2007, 7:58 PM
I got mine from Galls.com. I chose a great level II feather weight from second chance. I use it for range and competitions as well as keeping it handy by the bed. It also makes a good safe direction. It is bearable even in hot CA weather.

I got some very old stuff from Bulletproof me and shot the hell out of it. Stopped all my handgun attempts.

ljg17
09-06-2007, 8:14 PM
I read a rebuttal to the testing that the military did and it was pretty obvious that they were trying to get the dragonskin to fail, at one point in the testing they took a vest that was only certified for handgun and shot it with a .308 rifle after it had stopped several 9mm rounds. The vest stopped the .308 so after that they shot the severly compromised vest at a 40 degree angle with .308 and the rounds penetrated--surprise so the military failed it. Dragon Skin is Manufactured in Fresno and there is a retailer here named "The Range" it is available tonight call 559.277.9800 if you have 55K burning a hole in your pocket.

savasyn
09-06-2007, 8:30 PM
I got mine from Galls.com. I chose a great level II feather weight from second chance.

Are you or did you have to say you were law enforcement to get a second chance vest from there or will they sell to citizens as well?

Thanks!

savasyn
09-06-2007, 8:39 PM
I was reading on wikipedia about the different levels of body armor and that page ended with this comment. I had to stop and read it again just to make sure:
"Canadian legislation makes it legal to wear and to purchase body armor such as ballistic vests. However, there are current proposals to the legislation to make it illegal to wear such body armor during the commission of a criminal offense."


Ummm, ok. Yeah, don't get caught holding up a liquor store if you've got a vest on, they'll arrest you TWICE for that!

zemperfi1971
06-30-2008, 3:22 AM
J and J in Orange County sells the Dragon armor. It can be had by anyone problem is that it is just expensive. $5500 for full tactical armor Front and Back with extended sides SOV-2000. The SOV-3000 is not even available yet for civilian use it is level 4 to 5. THe SOV 2000 certified 3 but will stop what is normally level 4 rounds such as .223, ak rounds, and 308 multiple shots.

Afmo
06-30-2008, 9:40 AM
this thread get +1 for the star wars reference:xwing::50:

Shenaniguns
06-30-2008, 9:42 AM
I haven't bought from these folks but there's a lot of good info on the site:

http://www.bulletproofme.com/


+1

Stick with Kevlar or Twaron vs. the new latest and greatest... :TFH:

Synergy
06-30-2008, 10:29 AM
I just got issued US Armor - Enforcer Classic Level IIIA, its comfortable and concealable. Much better than our last Safariland vest which was jacket style and velcro down the center. The Safariland was standard sizes and US Armor is custom fitted. I dont know if they will sell to individuals but they are located in Los Angeles.

US Armor (http://www.usarmor.com/homepage.htm)

turinreza
06-30-2008, 10:50 AM
I was reading on wikipedia about the different levels of body armor and that page ended with this comment. I had to stop and read it again just to make sure:
"Canadian legislation makes it legal to wear and to purchase body armor such as ballistic vests. However, there are current proposals to the legislation to make it illegal to wear such body armor during the commission of a criminal offense."


Ummm, ok. Yeah, don't get caught holding up a liquor store if you've got a vest on, they'll arrest you TWICE for that!

And don't drive away from the scene of the crime while talking on a cell phone starting july 1st.. you get a $20 ticket!

gimebakmybulits
06-30-2008, 10:51 AM
There is some good reading on body armor here

http://lightfighter.net/eve/forums/a/frm/f/440107306

pnkssbtz
06-30-2008, 1:42 PM
If you do some research, there are allegations that whoever was conducting the testing for dragonskin "tweaked" things so it would not pass. I beliebe that the company is petitioning for a retest.

What exactly this means I dont know. What I do know is that budgets have much more to do with which troops get issued what than the actual quality of equipment. I also know that issuing newer better armor to the troops would cost an arm and a leg.

And I too saw the demos of this stuff on the history channel. Sure its TV, but I don't think the gunny would pull a fast one.

IIRC, There were 4 issues with the original testing:

1.) The Karl Masters was in charge of over seeing the tests has financial ties to Interceptor™ Body Armor, who would be the competitor of Dragon Skin. Karl Masters is the acting product manager for Interceptor Body Armor. Why is the DIRECT competitor the one overseeing the testing of a competing product? Regardless of the Ethics of Karl Masters, he should not ever have been the director in charge of testing. Period.

2.) The testing that was actually conducted was not the testing that was contracted to be done. The testers (at the behest of the guy in charge) conducted testing above and beyond what was designated for that test. The tests conducted were that for Level IV NIJ standards, despite the vest being classified for level III NIJ standards.

3.) Even including the failure of the armor in the testing, it still exceeded that of equivalent classified body armor by its competitor Interceptor Body Armor.

4.) To this date, the actual specifics of the testing and data gained are deemed "classified". The armor manufacturer cannot even get access to the files to see what went wrong to make changes. No one knows what the testing staff did, what they were trying to do, or why they decided to do tests they were not ordered to do (but disclosed publicly anyways).


At a later date, the Dragon Skin was tested at Aberdeen by different staff and satisfied every single test.



Reading the wiki entry, I find this new tidbit of info:

In April 2008 one of the Dragon Skin vests, with serial number that identify it as a one of 30 vests bought by Department of Defense for U.S. Army for testing in 2006, was listed and later bought from eBay. The vest was shot more than 30 times with no single failure. The seller, David Bronson, allegedly was connected to U.S. Army testing facility. U.S. Government Accountability Office (GOA), U.S. Department of Justice and F.B.I. is investigating matter as of May 2008.

Subvertz
06-30-2008, 1:48 PM
I hear the black helicopters coming...

pnkssbtz
06-30-2008, 1:59 PM
I hear the black helicopters coming...
Do you know what ad hominem is?

Can you actually refute anything or are you just going to make wild accusations at my person? But of course not. Because the documentation of everything is solid.

Subvertz
06-30-2008, 2:02 PM
I meant for myself, being int the military, but whatever dude.

KDOFisch
06-30-2008, 2:37 PM
LINK!

It's a little scooby doo, but it's a relatively new 'press release'. If any of it's true, it's a forensic nightmare and it's essentially fraud. But the other thing it would do is discredit DARPA or anyone else contracting and testing these armor systems.

http://www.sftt.org/cgi-bin/csNews/csnews.cgi/csNews.cgi?database=Unlisted%202008%2edb&command=viewone&id=18&rnd=812.730566482951

06-12-2008-- -- Roger Charles

Army Acquisition Capos Fraudulently Alter Body Armor Test Results


Thanks to an Air Force debarment action against Pinnacle Armor, manufacturer of Dragon Skin body armor, documents have been obtained, and witnesses deposed that provide hard evidence that the Army Acquisition capos fraudulently altered test reports to reflect the results desired by this band of criminal knaves.

And, they did so knowing full well the certain and fatal consequences that their unconscionable actions would have on America's Grunts.

Here's the latest ugly story in this litany of shameful, corrupt conduct by the Army Acquisition capos and their black-hearted contempt for America's Grunts.

ALTERED TEST DOCUMENTS AND CORRUPTED TEST DATA

DefenseWatch recently obtained ballistic test documents that show blatant and unequivocal signs of having been fraudulently altered, albeit in the most clumsy manner, to falsely portray test results of Pinnacle Armor's Dragon Skin body armor in three tests from August 2005 through June 2006.

Additionally, sworn depositions describe the criminal manipulation of test protocols by Army acquisition officials to produce fraudulent test reports that allowed them to falsely claim Dragon Skin had failed to perform to the levels cited by its manufacturer. These criminal distortions of standard test protocols were simple, yet breathtaking in their audacity.

To see but one example of the fraudulent alteration of documents, Note that this document is purported to be a print-out page displaying data captured in a computer-hosted data base which would therefore have uniform format and data entries if they were made by a printer. On just this single "print out" page, ten specific alterations have been detected by a certified forensic document examiner!

Numerous other documents show similar brazen and bold indicators of fraudulent alterations.

The documents were obtained by Pinnacle Armor during the discovery phase of its ongoing dispute with the Air Force over that Service's debarment. The forensic analysis of the cited documents was performed by a certified forensic document examiner in Seattle, Washington, hired by Pinnacle Armor after the company's own examination noted a number of suspicious anomalies.

The following is a list of ten items noted by the certified forensic document examiner are keyed to the one page linked to above. (While DefensWatch was able to note all ten of the types of alterations listed below, only the first listed item specified that magnification had been used to identify the precise cause of the alteration, "liquid paper white out.")

Bubbling under magnification indicative of ink being laid over the top of liquid paper white out.
Incorrect placement of vertical alignment of number.
Hand filled in line.
Different font size of numbers and/or letters.
Hand drafted letters and/or numbers.
The vertical rise of the number 5 is different from the body of the text which is slightly slanted.
The lack of even spacing above and below the letters and/or numbers in rows.
The lack of the two sized horizontal separation lines, not indicative of format used on a regular basis.
The vertical splice line.
The lower filled in dark splice covering line, not indicative of format used on a regular basis.
Murray Neal, President and CEO of Pinnacle Armor further explained that the documents turned over by the Air Force during the discovery phase of the debarment dispute were from several tests conducted by H. P. White Laboratory, Inc. (Interestingly, H.P. White Lab has been the most frequently used test facility used by PEO-Soldier. It has been used in spite of the Army's own premier ballistic test facility, the Army Test Center, Aberdeen, Maryland, being available and located just a few miles from H.P. White Lab.

Note that on the test-results document linked to above, that PEO Soldier (sic) is listed as the receiving office, and further that the ubiquitous "Dr. J. Zheng" is listed at the individual to receive the document. The date of the test was 13 June 2006, less than a month after the notorious May test of Dragon Skin which was the central topic of discussion at the House Armed Services Committee hearing in June 2007.

All seven deposed witnesses to the tests report that Zheng was physically present for the test on June 13, 2006. But, recently obtained copies of visitors' log from H.P. White Lab do not record Zheng as having been checked in and out of the facility as is required for all such activities with clearance for DoD classified information.

To add to the intrigue on just who was giving improper directions to the H.P. White Lab technicians during the tests, these H.P. White Lab records show that Karl Masters, then director of testing for PEO-Solider, checked in at 10:50am and checked out at 4:00pm. (While not one of the seven deposed persons volunteered information that Masters was present, they were not specifically asked about this point.)

Contemporaneous documents show Masters present, but not Zheng. Yet seven staff members of H.P. White Lab have under oath said Zheng was present, although access logs do not show he was officially checked in and out of the facility as required by DoD security directives.

Why is the question of which Army representatives were present for these tests an important issue? Because five test technicians (both "shooters" and "recorders") have stated under oath and penalty of perjury that the data forms presented for their review at their depositions did not reflect their recall of the events. That is, they did not recall Dragon Skin Level III body armor being defeated by Level III rounds, yet the test reports -- showing clear signs of having been altered -- did show such failures.

The "chain of custody" of this test data and the resulting records should be a focus point for the ongoing GAO body armor inquiry, if not for a new criminal investigation.

A reminder -- the head of the PEO-Soldier office responsible for the Army's body armor program was then-Colonel John Norwood, highlighted in DefenseWatch on several previous occasions. Norwood retired a few months after this June 2006 test of Dragon Skin, going to work for Armor Holdings, a major recipient of Army body armor contracts. (Armor Holdings was bought by BAE, a major defense contractor in the summer of 2007.)

DefenseWatch reported on January 2 of this year that Norwood was under criminal investigation.

This quote is from a April 4, 2008 news report in the Miami Herald that stated Norwood and BAE Systems Specialty Defense Systems (the successor entity to Armor Holdings' body armor business) are both subjects of a civil legal claim by a body armor competitor.
Point Blank accuses BAE Systems Specialty Defense Systems of Pennsylvania and John Norwood, a former Army program manager now employed with BAE's parent, of using confidential information Norwood learned while he was with the Army to persuade a Point Blank subcontractor to enter into an exclusive relationship with BAE.


MANIPULATING AND CORRUPTING TEST PROTOCOLS

The President and CEO of Pinnacle Armor was unaware that this and some other tests had even been conducted on his company's body armor until the discovery phase of his ongoing dispute with the Air Force produced documentary evidence of these previously undisclosed "tests."

H.P. White Lab conducted the tests under contract to support PEO-Soldier, but the tests were conducted for the Air Force Office of Special Investigation which had at the time a contract with Pinnacle Armor.

To state the obvious -- the fraudulent alterations are done to portray Dragon Skin as having failed the ballistics tests, when in fact, as confirmed by several depositions from persons involved in the tests at H.P. White Lab, Dragon Skin passed the tests.

This document and the others obtained by Pinnacle Armor are copies, not originals. The actual perpetrators of the fraudulent alterations have not yet been identified, but DefenseWatch has seen no evidence to date that implicates H.P. White Lab in any such misconduct.

DefenseWatch reviewed information in three despositions that shows a number of clever "tricks" used to manipulate and grossly violate the standard test protocols that, if honestly implemented, should ensure all products are "tested to the same standard," as a legion of Army Acquisition capos have claimed.

For example, on one test of a Dragon Skin Level III body armor vest, an on-scene Army official directed that a Level IV round be fired into the Level III Dragon Skin test item. The Level III Dragon Skin was penetrated by the Level IV round, but the Army reported to the Air Force, which readily accepted the fraudulent Army misrepresentation, that the Dragon Skin Level III vest had failed to stop the round.

This blatant distortion totally ignored the key fact, that the shot was illegitimate and the penetration invalid because the penetration was by a Level IV round into a Level III vest.

ARTICLE CONTINUED

KDOFisch
06-30-2008, 2:39 PM
Yep. When the tests showed that the Level III Dragon Skin was defeating the specified Level III rounds, some Army official -- or officials -- simply directed the testers to substitute Level IV rounds in order to get the desired result, i.e., a penetration of the Dragon Skin ballistic protection. The test results were then falsely portrayed to the Air Force as a Dragon Skin failure. (Whether the Air Force personnel were merely clueless about the difference between Level III and Level IV, or were criminally complicit in the fraud is an unanswered question at this point.)

Another distortion of the test protocol was to remove the Dragon Skin ballistic inset protection, i.e., the ceramic disks and their adhesive mesh, from the kevlar vest, and to then shoot just this component -- without the "backing" that is an integral part of the design. One deposed H.P. White Lab test technician said that such a test shot -- into a segregated component -- should not be counted as a failure under standard test criteria and protocols, and was not reported as a failure by those recording the data at the time of the test!

The conclusion is crystal clear: Someone manipulated the data base to falsely record this test result as a failure.

Both Interceptor Body Armor (IBA) and Dragon Skin body armor are designed to be worn as complete units. Shooting Dragon Skin without its outer tactical vest component would be akin to shooting IBA without its Outer Tactical Vest, and everyone at H.P. White Lab and PEO-Soldier know this to be the case. The Army's own test protocol very clearly requires that the solid ceramic ballistic plate be mounted in front the OTV component for all tests. Dragon Skin must also be shot with the complete vest assembled -- the outer tactical vest component and the ballistic inset component.

Of course, in this case, the Army reported to the Air Force that Dragon Skin had failed to defeat the test round. The Army did not report that the shot was outside standard criteria and protocols.

Not surprisingly, the Air Force is protesting Pinnacle Armor's efforts to submit these depositions. It is also trying prevent these very same test participants appearing as witnesses in an upcoming hearing on the Air Force debarment action against Pinnacle Armor.

For those who have not followed DefenseWatch reporting on the body armor controversy over the past 32 months, this latest episode is yet one more example of the ugly truth the when it comes to personal protective equipment for America's Grunts -- a fair, full and transparent test of Dragon Skin has never been conducted whenever the Army Acquisition capos controlled the testing.

To any objective observer, a strange paradox stands starkly exposed:

--Whenever Dragon Skin has been tested by someone other than the Army Acquisition Mafiosi, its performance has been as advertised by the manufacturer.

-- On the other hand, whenever Dragon Skin has been tested under the control of the Army Acquisition Mafiosi, its performance has not been as advertised by the manufacturer.

Is it any wonder then that Lt.Gen. Peter W. Chiarelli, nominated to be Vice Chief of Staff of the Army, ordered eight sets of Dragon Skin for himself and his personal staff in May 2006 while serving in Baghdad, and that several Personal Security Detachments (PSD's) also had the option of using Dragon Skin instead of Interceptor?

Dragon Skin may not be "good enough" for today's Soldiers, but it was fine for Lt.Gen. Chiarelli and his horse-holders.

For more reporting on this story,see this video clip of a news report by KSEE24 television in Fresno, California.

pnkssbtz
06-30-2008, 2:52 PM
I meant for myself, being int the military, but whatever dude.
Don't play coy. Using the phrase "I hear the black helicopters coming..." implies only one thing.

It's a little too late to pretend innocence.

Subvertz
06-30-2008, 2:59 PM
Dude, i have no reason to doubt what you are saying. You laid out the facts in black and white. Im not one to start sh*t, escpecially since I see this underhanded government contractor favortism crap EVERYDAY at work. I'm furious at the waste, fraud and abuse that the Navy, government, shipyards get away with so that the boots in the sand don't get the stuff they need to fight the good fight.
Now, maybe I coulda worded myself more clearly, such as, "I hate this coverup BS!" or maybe either you or I have a misunderstanding of the the modern conotation of "black helicopters".
Or maybe, you're just in the mood to pick a fight, which I just won't oblige. I meant no attack on you or any of the previous posters so calm down, aight?

Gland
06-30-2008, 5:32 PM
does pinnacle armor have any intention of going public? i'd really like a position in their company at the time of their IPO.
please don't call me a war profiteer. i'm an american

NiteQwill
06-30-2008, 5:39 PM
Everyone gets all wound up for nothing. I love this forum.

pnkssbtz
06-30-2008, 6:07 PM
Dude, i have no reason to doubt what you are saying. You laid out the facts in black and white. Im not one to start sh*t, escpecially since I see this underhanded government contractor favortism crap EVERYDAY at work. I'm furious at the waste, fraud and abuse that the Navy, government, shipyards get away with so that the boots in the sand don't get the stuff they need to fight the good fight.
Now, maybe I coulda worded myself more clearly, such as, "I hate this coverup BS!" or maybe either you or I have a misunderstanding of the the modern conotation of "black helicopters".
Or maybe, you're just in the mood to pick a fight, which I just won't oblige. I meant no attack on you or any of the previous posters so calm down, aight?I am going to take your sincerity at face value.

However, I must ask you seriously, what do you think people will infer when you respond with someones post (which involves potential government fraudulent activity) with "I hear the black helicopters coming"? I mean seriously!

And as to me in a mood to pick a fight; lets say, I am tired of people trying to discredit other people by making ad hominem attacks. Such as calling them "tin foil hat crazy" or the like.


Every time Pinnacle Dragon Skin come sup, people go crazy about calling it a fake and talking trash about it. Yet the facts surrounding it clearly show to the contrary, and anyone who points these facts out, regardless of their support for the product in question, or questions the validity of the accusations is labeled "crazy" or wears "tin foil hats" with the implication being that they are insanely stupid and therefor anything they say is delusional.

In other words, the common rebuttal every time this product comes up is ad hominem.

So I will ask again: What do you think people will infer when you respond with someones post with "I hear the black helicopters coming"?

Subvertz
06-30-2008, 6:17 PM
Government cover-ups. That simple. Thank you for being reasonable and trusting me. It's users like you that make CALGUNS so nice to visit. Next time, please PM me if I offend you, I'd like to keep this kind of stuff off the radar. Again, I'm sorry.

trinydex
06-30-2008, 6:23 PM
I read a rebuttal to the testing that the military did and it was pretty obvious that they were trying to get the dragonskin to fail, at one point in the testing they took a vest that was only certified for handgun and shot it with a .308 rifle after it had stopped several 9mm rounds. The vest stopped the .308 so after that they shot the severly compromised vest at a 40 degree angle with .308 and the rounds penetrated--surprise so the military failed it. Dragon Skin is Manufactured in Fresno and there is a retailer here named "The Range" it is available tonight call 559.277.9800 if you have 55K burning a hole in your pocket.

J and J in Orange County sells the Dragon armor. It can be had by anyone problem is that it is just expensive. $5500 for full tactical armor Front and Back with extended sides SOV-2000. The SOV-3000 is not even available yet for civilian use it is level 4 to 5. THe SOV 2000 certified 3 but will stop what is normally level 4 rounds such as .223, ak rounds, and 308 multiple shots.

oh it's 5500, the guy before said 55k i was like :eek:

trinydex
06-30-2008, 6:25 PM
IIRC, There were 4 issues with the original testing:

1.) The Karl Masters was in charge of over seeing the tests has financial ties to Interceptor™ Body Armor, who would be the competitor of Dragon Skin. Karl Masters is the acting product manager for Interceptor Body Armor. Why is the DIRECT competitor the one overseeing the testing of a competing product? Regardless of the Ethics of Karl Masters, he should not ever have been the director in charge of testing. Period.

2.) The testing that was actually conducted was not the testing that was contracted to be done. The testers (at the behest of the guy in charge) conducted testing above and beyond what was designated for that test. The tests conducted were that for Level IV NIJ standards, despite the vest being classified for level III NIJ standards.

3.) Even including the failure of the armor in the testing, it still exceeded that of equivalent classified body armor by its competitor Interceptor Body Armor.

4.) To this date, the actual specifics of the testing and data gained are deemed "classified". The armor manufacturer cannot even get access to the files to see what went wrong to make changes. No one knows what the testing staff did, what they were trying to do, or why they decided to do tests they were not ordered to do (but disclosed publicly anyways).


At a later date, the Dragon Skin was tested at Aberdeen by different staff and satisfied every single test.



Reading the wiki entry, I find this new tidbit of info:

this sounds like an application of national security classified status being used to cover up government embarassment.

Dragonskin is a sham and doesn't work. NIJ has removed their armor from the certified list and they are being investigated by the Inspector General for fraudulent claims made during the procurement process. The owner will probably have a federal indictment in his lap by the end of this year or next year if he's lucky. Stay away from their crap as it does not work.

so the facts behind this are the nij removal?

DesertGunner
06-30-2008, 6:39 PM
this sounds like an application of national security classified status being used to cover up government embarassment.

It's not super top secret or anything. The Dragon Skin had problems with all of the ceramic biscuits detaching and pooling at the bottom of the vest like a bag of jelly beans.

trinydex
06-30-2008, 6:40 PM
It's not super top secret or anything. The Dragon Skin had problems with all of the ceramic biscuits detaching and pooling at the bottom of the vest like a bag of jelly beans.

hmmm the plot thickens...

pnkssbtz
06-30-2008, 6:47 PM
It's not super top secret or anything. The Dragon Skin had problems with all of the ceramic biscuits detaching and pooling at the bottom of the vest like a bag of jelly beans.Um... really? Did they really all pool at the bottom like "a bag of jelly beans"? And you know that all of the discs came loose how?

Or did a SINGLE disc come loose via adhesives weakening due to extreme temperatures combined with submersion with gas/diesel?

Also, why was a level 3 Vest being shot at with 7.62x54 AP rounds? Does that sound like something a level 3 vest should be tested against while being subjected to extreme heat and immersed in fuel?


And how do you explain the fact that the Aberdine tests were a unanimous pass?


Or really, are you just distorting the facts to make it appear that all the product is faulty when it has passed all subsequent tests conducted by individuals who do not work for the competing company?

If all of the discs came loose and pooled at the bottom like jelly beans, as you say, why was that same vest that was the one tested in which Pinnacle was deemed to have failed sold on ebay, and subsequently shot 30 times with zero penetrations? Oh but wait, but I thought I heard someone say that the discs were "pooled at the bottom like jelly beans"...

DesertGunner
06-30-2008, 8:01 PM
Um... really? Did they really all pool at the bottom like "a bag of jelly beans"? And you know that all of the discs came loose how?

Or did a SINGLE disc come loose via adhesives weakening due to extreme temperatures combined with submersion with gas/diesel?

Also, why was a level 3 Vest being shot at with 7.62x54 AP rounds? Does that sound like something a level 3 vest should be tested against while being subjected to extreme heat and immersed in fuel?


And how do you explain the fact that the Aberdine tests were a unanimous pass?


Or really, are you just distorting the facts to make it appear that all the product is faulty when it has passed all subsequent tests conducted by individuals who do not work for the competing company?

If all of the discs came loose and pooled at the bottom like jelly beans, as you say, why was that same vest that was the one tested in which Pinnacle was deemed to have failed sold on ebay, and subsequently shot 30 times with zero penetrations? Oh but wait, but I thought I heard someone say that the discs were "pooled at the bottom like jelly beans"...

Wow. Take off the tinfoil hat when you come inside...

All I know is I saw Xrays taken of the vests on the silentprofessionals forum in which they did exactly that - jelly beans (ok, a pile of biscuits).

pnkssbtz
06-30-2008, 8:39 PM
Wow. Take off the tinfoil hat when you come inside...Gee, didn't we go through this already? Support your argument and leave the ad hominem at home.

All I know is I saw Xrays taken of the vests on the silentprofessionals forum in which they did exactly that - jelly beans (ok, a pile of biscuits). silentprofessionals.what? .com? .net?

Sorry, no such board exists when I google "silentprofessionals". There is a domain registered, but it is a cyber squater.


So you saw some pictures of xrays of busted up vests. Does that mean the vests failed? What was done to the vests? Which testing were the vests from? The Airforce testing? The Army testing? Or the Aberdine tests? Because I seem to recall it passing the Airforce and the Aberdine testing... but failing the testing conducted by the army (at the oversight of Karl Masters, you know the production manager for Interceptor Body Armor...)


The point is, not that I am defending dragon skin armor, but that there is so much bullsh*t, half truths and misrepresented facts surrounding this armor. It is quite clear that there is a propaganda war surrounding this product.

And then to tell me to "take off the tinfoil hat" despite all of this being pointed out? What a hypocrite!

zemperfi1971
07-08-2008, 11:40 AM
About that bunching up...anybody with a x-ray machine available? I have my 2003 produced SOV dragon skin that we can x-ray. I'd like to know too if my dragon skin is bunching up like said.
OFFER IS OUT THERE>..somebody with an X-RAY MACHINE?

Casual Observer
07-08-2008, 3:40 PM
so why can't regular people get armor like dragonskin?
if it's the best of the best anyone should be able to get it
especially people who just want defensive stuff like armor?

I will sell you dragon skin armor up to level 3 sov 2000 Im a dragon skin dealer and I work at J and J Armory in Santa Ana

richarab
05-14-2009, 11:46 PM
may 30th 2009 ebay due to bann body armor sale

7x57
05-15-2009, 1:17 AM
However, I must ask you seriously, what do you think people will infer when you respond with someones post (which involves potential government fraudulent activity) with "I hear the black helicopters coming"? I mean seriously!


Instead of speculating, I'll give you one data point on what one person thought about that little exchange. I thought Subvertz made a small but moderately amusing joke about the amount of coverup that is alleged to be going on w.r.t. the DragonSkin testing. He didn't care tremendously about the issue, but saw a bit of humor in it. Then I thought you entirely missed the joke and went off on him. :eek: It took me a while to even figure out how you could take offense. Then I thought he was surprisingly gracious about your rather heated misunderstanding. So I concluded you really needed to just relax and not imagine that everyone else is so passionately involved with the issue as you are. :chillpill:

That's what one person inferred, anyway.

Seriously. :D

7x57

cousinkix1953
05-15-2009, 1:58 AM
Haha yeah they always have letters and copies of supposed pending laws that are going to outlaw the armor. They've been doing that as long as I've been going to gun shows....

-Bryan
I saw a piece about the Brady Bunch going nuts over body armor the other day. They wanna ban it too. On the other hand, I remember both G Gordon Liddy and a certain San Jose police sergeant reminding us, that really doesn't matter if they shot you in the head...

derwiking
05-15-2009, 11:46 AM
Dragon Scale armor- the proof is in the pudding. I would say it is a grab bag, I have read articles and posts by active duty soldiers and I have read 'it saved my life from a 7.62x39' and 'the armor failed miserably in use and I was injured'. Personally? I would say rather than go with 'scale/ring mail', which the technology is based upon, go with the time tested armor... Platemail(IV Tramua plates, or SAPI's.). History repeats itself, no? Historians are still arguing whiether ring/scale mail existed widespread, and if it did, how effective it was. However platemail was widely used and very effective. All I know is that a level IV plate will stop a 7.62, and the worst you'll be dealing with is broken ribs and some internal bleeding, other than having a hole blown out your back. Sounds like a good deal to me.

bohoki
05-15-2009, 2:47 PM
is it?