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RRangel
09-03-2007, 10:06 PM
Just a little commentary on one of the latest problems we face as gun owners in this state. Not only are our beloved state representatives attempting to disarm Californian's with a flurry of anti-gun legislation every year, some of them are trying to bring California style Utopian gun control to every state in the union. Even though no one is asking for it being that the rest of the country is headed in the opposite direction.

Please reference this article:
http://hartfordbusiness.com/news2610.html

The subtitle says it all.

West coast law change could stamp out gun maker's profit.You're already familiar with this topic, but it's useful to have some details. The more incite we can gain the better.

California lawmakers next month are expected to vote on a measure that — if it passes — could greatly impact how handgun manufacturers across Connecticut and the rest of the nation assemble their deadly wares.

The debate centers around a technique called microstamping, a technology that imprints the shells spit out from handguns with an identifying code. That code is linked to a traceable serial number, which could help police track down owners of a gun fired during a crime.Even if that vote fails, the debate over microstamping likely will not fade. A similar, failed measure was introduced in Maryland last year, and lawmakers in other states have also talked of introducing similar bills. At the federal level, Sen. Edward M. Kennedy (D-Mass.) and Congressman Xavier Becerra (D-Calif.) have advocated a nationwide microstamping requirement for handgun makers.These individuals have the gall to push for laws that the general public does not want. How do they have the audacity to want this for the rest of the nation? Can they not see the forest for the trees? As if the nation is just asking for California style victim disarmament.

Look at the advocates. Anti-gun organizations such as VPC and the Brady Campaign that have been created and funded by elitists from the top down. They are counter grass roots. That's why you do not see large turn outs at these "huge" anti-gun rallies. They have few members and that would make sense since the whole reason for these organizations is related to the disarming of the general public. However they have the support of the mainstream media and left of center politicians which makes them a problem.


Manufacturers claim that serializing firing pins, breech faces and other parts creates a logistical nightmare — a major piece of the claimed $200 cost.
Baloney, said Todd E. Lizotte, the Londonderry, N.H.-based inventor of the technology. Adding microstamping to a handgun involves relatively quick, costless modifications to existing parts. Plus, he has agreed to make the technology available royalty-free, meaning near-zero costs per unit to use his patent.Of course the inventor of this technology is going to push for his product. How very convenient. What's he going to do say it's not needed? Yes he's going to spare gun makers the royalties, but they'll need to pay anyway. I suppose re-equipping their plants won't cost anything? That's just a lie.

Once again pay attention to those who are really trying to push this travesty. It's not the general public who these elected victim disarmers purport to be concerned for. The socialist elite, the maker of the technology, and fake organizations who's sole purpose is to disarm American citizens.


A study sponsored by the State of California and conducted by Michael Beddow, a University of California at Davis graduate student, found that microstamping works but may not be feasible for all type of guns. Beddow also found that the technology could be disabled through tampering, such as filing off the end of the firing pin.
Of course, that study was never peer-reviewed – a point raised by the University of California Chancellor Larry N. Vanderhoef. Lizotte and supporters of the legislation claim Beddow’s research was flawed, since it used older handguns.What older guns are these, muzzle loaders? What kind of excuse it that? This non-peer reviewed research is better than what him and the gun control advocates have on "micro stamping" which is pretty much no research.

There you have it. The socialist elite in office, the usual fraudulent victim disarmament groups, and the maker of said technology are pushing hard for this "micro stamping" bill regardless of common sense.

CCWFacts
09-03-2007, 10:25 PM
California has long been a "policy exporter" in many areas. All those people who say, "Thank God I live in a free state, not California!" should instead be saying, "I'm glad I'm in a free state but we need to help out the gun owners in CA because what happens there will impact me here."

M. Sage
09-03-2007, 10:28 PM
Manufacturers claim that serializing firing pins, breech faces and other parts creates a logistical nightmare ó a major piece of the claimed $200 cost.
Baloney, said Todd E. Lizotte, the Londonderry, N.H.-based inventor of the technology. Adding microstamping to a handgun involves relatively quick, costless modifications to existing parts. Plus, he has agreed to make the technology available royalty-free, meaning near-zero costs per unit to use his patent.

Royalty-free does NOT mean zero-cost. It would still be a manufacturer's nightmare.

Now you've got to serialize parts before they get to assembly and make sure all those parts wind up on the correct gun. Example: Instead of pulling a firing pin out of a big box of firing pins and dropping it into a slide, they'd have to get the correct firing pin for the slide. Same thing for the extractors.

It's not going to be ten cents of fifty like this lying POS claims. I've worked in factories as quality control, I know what a PITA it is to add anything new to the process. The bigger the PITA, the more the money.

Piper
09-03-2007, 10:51 PM
With the internet, it shouldn't be a problem networking with people in N.Y., Mass., Wis., Ill., and N.J. Those are all battle ground states and we need to make Teddy's life as miserable as Feinstein, Boxer and Pelosi. Meanwhile we can tell family and friends how these things will effect them by showing those that are clueless the after effects of Katrina and showing them movies like "In Search of the Second Amendment". BTW, while this movie is informative, you do have lawyers talking so it gets a bit dry.

Anyway, we should be doing our dead level best to get rid of those traitorous socialist elitists. They should be everybit as much on our radar screen as what happens locally.

hoffmang
09-03-2007, 11:06 PM
I've spoken on the phone at length with Mr Lizotte. For handguns there isn't a per handgun royalty, but there is a per machine tool royalty to be able to manufacture handguns that comply going forward.

It is a very nasty anti-trust style business ploy.

-Gene

RRangel
09-03-2007, 11:07 PM
You know the inventor is a crock. He is the inventor of this mess and he's trying to sell it. He stands to make a fortune because some moonbat politicians want to legislate the state into oblivian. Imagine every gun maker that wants to sell in California must use his equipment and technology. This guy may stand to make a fortune. I wish he would disclose how much he's going to make if every gun maker that currently sells in this state hypothetically follows through. The mess would be clearer.

CCWFacts
09-03-2007, 11:11 PM
Here's a detailed video explanation:

http://www.pivotaldevelopment.com/downloads/microstampwm.wmv

Quite interesting, and it gives detailed real-world examples of how this works, what it looks like under various types of microscopes, how it fits in the gun, etc.

After reviewing this, it is 100% clear to me that:

1. The markings could be removed from a firing pin with a few strokes of a fine file, without changing the function of the pin.

2. Nothing prevents swapping of pins, and pins aren't regulated parts anywhere in the US.

3. They mentioned that there are marking surfaces on the breach face also, but they didn't show what those look like. That makes me wonder if that part of the technology might be vapor-ware. In any case, they will be of the same nature as firing pin markings and will also be removable with a couple of strokes of a file.

jdberger
09-03-2007, 11:12 PM
if it's so inexpensive, why doesn't Brady or the Joyce Foundation fund a trial period. They can pay for a manufacturer to implement the technology. I mean, it's for the children, isn't it?

Wulf
09-04-2007, 7:12 AM
Here's a detailed video explanation:

http://www.pivotaldevelopment.com/downloads/microstampwm.wmv

Quite interesting, and it gives detailed real-world examples of how this works, what it looks like under various types of microscopes, how it fits in the gun, etc.

After reviewing this, it is 100% clear to me that:

1. The markings could be removed from a firing pin with a few strokes of a fine file, without changing the function of the pin.

2. Nothing prevents swapping of pins, and pins aren't regulated parts anywhere in the US.

3. They mentioned that there are marking surfaces on the breach face also, but they didn't show what those look like. That makes me wonder if that part of the technology might be vapor-ware. In any case, they will be of the same nature as firing pin markings and will also be removable with a couple of strokes of a file.

There's some youtube videos up that show Lizotte examining the marks on the case (extractor, ejector, firing pin, and breech face). IIRC they also hint that there may be other marks. They also use some polarized, and non visible wave length light tricks to enhance faded marks.

His rebuttal to the argument that the marks would be easy to erase is that between all the different stamps and different techniques for enhancement, they could assemble a complete set of id numbers.

AJAX22
09-04-2007, 7:29 AM
if it's so inexpensive, why doesn't Brady or the Joyce Foundation fund a trial period. They can pay for a manufacturer to implement the technology. I mean, it's for the children, isn't it?

Because that would violate one of the priniciple tenannts of socialism. never pay for anything you can pursuade the state to make your neighbors pay for.

paradox
09-04-2007, 8:01 AM
There's some youtube videos up that show Lizotte examining the marks on the case (extractor, ejector, firing pin, and breech face). IIRC they also hint that there may be other marks. They also use some polarized, and non visible wave length light tricks to enhance faded marks.

His rebuttal to the argument that the marks would be easy to erase is that between all the different stamps and different techniques for enhancement, they could assemble a complete set of id numbers.

I spent the better part of yesterday polishing the hell out of my new ciener kit. I seriously doubt that removing all microstamping would be harder than removing all the tool marks from the baring surfaces of the ciener kit (Iíve seen Soviet Bloc guns with better machining).

What metalworking canít be accomplished with a dremel, files, and stones?

dustoff31
09-04-2007, 9:33 AM
California has long been a "policy exporter" in many areas. All those people who say, "Thank God I live in a free state, not California!" should instead be saying, "I'm glad I'm in a free state but we need to help out the gun owners in CA because what happens there will impact me here."

You're right we should always help where we can. However, the fact remains that you guys (Californians) continue to elect and re-elect the people who are doing to you. We can't help you there.

CCWFacts
09-04-2007, 9:59 AM
You're right we should always help where we can. However, the fact remains that you guys (Californians) continue to elect and re-elect the people who are doing to you. We can't help you there.

Our state gov't is hard to change but we are working on it. You can help by being an NRA member, writing to your reps about bills that will help us like the national reciprocity act, and doing whatever you can to raise awareness in your state.

bulgron
09-04-2007, 10:15 AM
What they really don't talk about in microstamping is the cost to forensic labs to be able to examine the microstamping features left on the brass and primers. It isn't just about buying the right equipment to be able to see those details; it's also about training the technicians in their use as well as the sheer cost in time to examine brass for these marks.

All so that a defendant can argue at trial that the scene must have been salted with brass that he left behind at a gun range.

Microstamping's real purpose is to make it as hard as possible to sell guns inside California. It's truly an evil bill.

What is the status of this thing, anyway? Did it ever finally come up for a vote?

I know that if it passes, I'm going to go buy the semi-auto handgun I want to use for CCW eventually, even though I can't yet legally CCW. Get 'em now while you can ....

Bad Voodoo
09-04-2007, 11:05 AM
You're right we should always help where we can. However, the fact remains that you guys (Californians) continue to elect and re-elect the people who are doing to you. We can't help you there.

That's the ugly truth, as difficult as it is to swallow for those of us on this forum. And it's the primary reason why Californians get skewered by the free-staters.

-voodoo

tombinghamthegreat
09-04-2007, 11:13 AM
You're right we should always help where we can. However, the fact remains that you guys (Californians) continue to elect and re-elect the people who are doing to you. We can't help you there.

In my area (Newbury park/thousand oaks) Tom McClintock runs our area and he extremely pro gun. I sent a few emails and he responded back, telling me he will not support any law that violate the second amendment.

The problem with the legal gun battle in CA, most people do not even know what is going on. Hell, I told my friend that the assault rifle ban was still in effect in CA and he did not believe me. I had to tell my dad that you need a handgun certificate to buy a handgun and he owns a few handguns. Some people i worked with was not even aware that DC has a gun ban and a self defense ban. So if we want to change the gun battle in CA and the US, we need to inform them that there is a gun rights battle going on.

Glock22Fan
09-04-2007, 12:16 PM
There's some youtube videos up that show Lizotte examining the marks on the case (extractor, ejector, firing pin, and breech face). IIRC they also hint that there may be other marks. They also use some polarized, and non visible wave length light tricks to enhance faded marks.

His rebuttal to the argument that the marks would be easy to erase is that between all the different stamps and different techniques for enhancement, they could assemble a complete set of id numbers.

And all of this becomes totally irrelevant when the BG realizes that all he needs to do is use a revolver, or scatter brass from the range around.

And how many criminals has the MD brass registration scheme sent to jail? None, at a cost of millions.

scattered_x
09-04-2007, 6:16 PM
California has long been a "policy exporter" in many areas. All those people who say, "Thank God I live in a free state, not California!" should instead be saying, "I'm glad I'm in a free state but we need to help out the gun owners in CA because what happens there will impact me here."

I agree, and it's to bad the people in the free states have the opinion that nothing like what we have here can occur to them in their state. I have family in the south that holds this view...but I'm working on them.;)