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carsonwales
09-03-2007, 9:34 AM
Team of Temecula officers disbanded, under investigation

By: JOHN HALL and JOHN HUNNEMAN - Staff Writers TEMECULA ---- A special team of police officers who are supposed to target the more serious crimes and criminals in the city has been temporarily disbanded and an internal investigation into their actions is under way, Police Chief Jerry Williams confirmed Friday.

While Williams said he could not discuss specifics, he did confirm that a raid conducted by the Street Enforcement Team last week ---- which ended up at the wrong Temecula house ---- is part of the administrative investigation.
"We received several allegations (involving the team) and I felt it was necessary to initiate this investigation," said Williams, who was named Temecula's police chief less than a month ago. He said he could not comment further on any of those allegations.

The team, which is specifically funded by the city, is composed of a sergeant, a corporal and six officers, Williams said.

None of the eight have been placed on leave and all have been reassigned to other duties, the chief said. The investigation is being done by the internal affairs division of the Riverside County Sheriff's Department, which Temecula contracts with for police protection.

Williams added that he intends to start up a new team once the administrative investigation is complete.

"They are my front-line team," the chief said. "It is critical we keep them out there."

Williams said the team is often assigned to particular problem areas or used to address crime trends in the city.

The team is also tasked with keeping a close eye on gang members, illegal drug activity and parolees who may be in the city, he said.

Williams said he believes the team was supposed to be raiding a parolee's home Aug. 24 when they inadvertently hit the wrong door.

Officers ended up at the home of David and Lillian Scott, just off Rancho California Road.

Lillian Scott said she and her husband were in the living room discussing family plans, their 15-year-old daughter was in the garage with two friends and their 16-year-old son was in another room feeding the Scotts' 5-month-old baby.

That all changed at 9:35 p.m. she said, when Temecula police officers ---- four or five, she's not sure ----- carrying rifles charged though the unlocked front screen door and ordered the couple to the floor.

"Two of them came over and put handcuffs on the two of us," Lillian Scott said. "We asked what we had done wrong and didn't get an answer."

Elsewhere in the house other officers handcuffed their daughter and her two friends.

"(The officers) told them to get down on the f---ing floor," she said.

Her 16-year-old son, who was feeding the baby, was also ordered to the floor and handcuffed, Scott said.

From the other room, Scott heard her infant crying.

"I asked if my baby was OK and the officer told me if I moved he was going to put a bullet in my head," Scott said.

She later learned one of the officers had picked the baby up off the couch and had tried to quiet the infant, Scott said.

That sent her mind racing, Scott said.

She was unsure if the house raid was somehow connected to the murder of her daughter, Heather Steimer, then 18, who disappeared in July 2003. Steimer's body was found several weeks later buried in a shallow grave in Escondido. An Escondido man was convicted of murder in that case in 2005.

"That made what was going on even more difficult," Scott said.

Officers continued to search the house.

"They went upstairs and kicked in the doors of my bedroom and my daughter's," Scott said.

Scott later found the hinges off her bedroom door and a hole in the door leading to the daughter's room.

"Then I heard one of the officers on the radio say the second floor was clear," Scott said. "Another officer on the radio then said they were supposed to be at a one-story house."

The raid, Scott said, was supposed to be at a nearby one-story house.

"(The officers) apologized and left," she said.

Scott sent an e-mail to Temecula Mayor Chuck Washington telling him what happened.

"He's been wonderful," she said. "And the police chief came to our house and apologized."

Washington went to Scott's workplace, a local bank, this week to offer a personal apology, she said.

Contacted by phone on Friday, Washington referred questions about the incident to Williams.

"I really appreciate what the mayor and the chief of police have done," she said. "They told us the people involved would be reprimanded."

Scott added she has been contacted by Riverside County human resources officials about a settlement of the incident in lieu of a possible lawsuit.

Scott said they had yet to make a decision on how the family would proceed.

When asked about the raid at the wrong house, Williams called the family "very nice and very cooperative.

"We've tried to mend the fences," he added.

Regarding the investigation into the Street Enforcement Team, Williams said he wants to get to the bottom of things, one way or another.

"I want to get to the facts or get them exonerated, I think we owe it to (the officers)," the chief said.

Contact staff writer John Hall at (951) 676-4315, Ext. 2628, or jhall@californian.com. Contact staff writer John Hunneman at (951) 676-4315, Ext. 2603.

http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2007/09/01/news/californian/20_02_748_31_07.txt

carsonwales
09-03-2007, 9:39 AM
Crime Stats for Temecula

http://www.cityrating.com/citycrime.asp?city=Temecula&state=CA

69Mach1
09-03-2007, 9:39 AM
Wow, an elite team who's members can't figure out the right house to bust through. :rolleyes:

KenpoProfessor
09-03-2007, 9:41 AM
What I find amazing is it sounds as if these guys did no absolutely zero recon before this raid. If they knew it was a one story house, why on earth didn't they look at the address, match the house to the description on the warrant (if they even had one)? This is ludicrous, and those officers should be justly dismissed, fined, and taken into civil court, each one seperately and personally responsible.

Have a great gun carryin' Kenpo day

Clyde

Bad Voodoo
09-03-2007, 9:48 AM
Crime Stats for Temecula

http://www.cityrating.com/citycrime.asp?city=Temecula&state=CA

Yeah, I was thinking the same thing. Guess when you're a police state, even the safest of cities have to have their soldiers.

-voodoo

Jicko
09-03-2007, 9:51 AM
Holy smoke!!!

Why can't whoever ordering the raid, personally go to the location, and take a photograph of the "house".....

So, they won't just go by "address".... and mistaking taken a single-story house with 2-stories...

@!$!#%!@#!@

CSACANNONEER
09-03-2007, 9:52 AM
They're lucky that it wasn't a calgunner's house that they hit by mistake!

wilit
09-03-2007, 9:53 AM
Wow. I'm speechless.

Hoop
09-03-2007, 10:48 AM
Hell, they put a bunch of macho idiots on something called "THE TEAM" - what do they think is going to happen? Some "elite unit", can't even find the right address hahahahahaha!

dustoff31
09-03-2007, 10:58 AM
And these people are issued weapons. Well, at least they didn't smack the baby around for resisting arrest.

CSACANNONEER
09-03-2007, 11:01 AM
And these people are issued weapons. Well, at least they didn't smack the baby around for resisting arrest.

How do you know they didn't? Maybe that's why he stopped crying!

Hoop
09-03-2007, 12:55 PM
How do you know they didn't? Maybe that's why he stopped crying!

Here's what that made me think of:
http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa195/Hooperinius/AC-Baby.jpg

Diablo
09-03-2007, 1:06 PM
Wow, an elite team who's members can't figure out the right house to bust through. :rolleyes:

What's so surprising? This happens in LA all the ime...:D

Piper
09-03-2007, 1:35 PM
I'm trying very hard not to write a police bashing post. If the family actually resisted this illegal invasion of their home, this could have turned into a very bloody incident. Because of that, those team members and their Gestapo attitudes need to be put somewhere that they can't harm anyone. The fact that they went to a two story house instead of a one story tells me that they didn't do their homework before engaging in this badly planned raid. Those people are a bunch of buffoons and more than a reprimand needs to be done. BTW, don't you just love it when a politician kisses @$$ when they have no legal position.

Boomer1961
09-03-2007, 2:20 PM
Yeah, I was thinking the same thing. Guess when you're a police state, even the safest of cities have to have their soldiers.

-voodooCrime Stats for Temecula

http://www.cityrating.com/citycrime.asp?city=Temecula&state=CA

Looks like all crime but theft/larceny and maybe rape are extremely low and would be called a success by any police chief in USofA. Even those two crimes are well below average so not really an epidemic.

I am thinking though that they are worried about all the donut thefts and thus formed that task force thing.

And when you work for an ol' boring law department and see on TV shows and news all the other LE getting to play dress up with the cool black uniforms and army boots with that really cool helmet thing that looks like a nazi soldier, and the tightly fitting tailored uniforms that gets all the girls flirting with you when you are at the mall getting donuts and most of all getting to carry that cool M-16 and maybe getting to point it at somebody and hitting them with the butt stock, and prayer of all prayers answered, getting to shoot a bad guy and getting my mug with while wearing my fashionable and sexy uniform on the local TV so everyone can see what a fantastic policeman I am, you have to ask yourself, no wonder.

These guys are bored to death. To bad LE does not have a rotation policy like the army so the gung ho types could go into the combat zones and get there taste and have the more sensible Andy Griffin types patrolling my city.

Just for instance, A&E had a show about a gun freak (whatever that was) who was a serial killer. When the cops went to arrest him they surrounded the house then gave the chap a call and asked him to come out and chat with him. Can't imagine that happening in the USofA. I would expect at least two television news helicopters, an LE helicopter, four more news stations with remote ground vans getting superior parking up front while the SWAT team has to park way behind them so they get good video of them running then busting into the house and yelling and throwing flash bangs and/or teargas and tearing doors of the hinges with armored cars and if there is a gun owner he gets shot for owning a gun because he is clueless about what is happening other than his house getting invaded so he tries to defend himself.

I think there is to much police violence on TV that is affecting them just like we know it is affecting our children and they think now this is the normal way to do police work.

Where has Andy Griffin gone with his common sense police approach from the days when they were known as Peace officers instead of law enforcement officers. Maybe its because we have oh so many laws on top of laws and having someone violate 26 laws in a commission of a crime they make it 31 with five more laws saying its against the law to shoot someone while you are robbing them.

I am sure there is video of this raid somewhere and that the news was nearby. Anyone have a U-Tube link of the raid gone wild?
:D

dw1784
09-03-2007, 3:04 PM
this was posted at boingboing, botched raids:
http://www.cato.org/raidmap/

Mssr. Eleganté
09-03-2007, 3:54 PM
To bad LE does not have a rotation policy like the army so the gung ho types could go into the combat zones and get there taste and have the more sensible Andy Griffin types patrolling my city.
himself.

Where has Andy Griffin gone with his common sense police approach from the days when they were known as Peace officers instead of law enforcement officers.

OK, a little off topic here, but this is the second thread in which Boomer1961 has made reference to the actor who played Sheriff Andy Taylor on television's The Andy Griffith Show.

Merv Griffin
http://entimg.msn.com/i/150/TV/2/Griffin_PF003685_150x225.jpg


Andy Griffin
http://www.football.co.uk/shared/images/players/players_9193.jpg


Andy Griffith
http://www.sptimes.com/2002/06/16/photos/flo-griffith.jpg

Sorry, but that was just bugging me. :p

CalNRA
09-03-2007, 4:09 PM
If they came through my door I would be dead on sight, since I usually keep a shotgun ready for violent armed intruders and if the police got the wrong address and cam to my place, I would be shot and they would have a "valid reason" for shooting me.

"the suspect had a gun".

by the time the media gets a hold of it will be "suspect shot in raid, pointed a shotgun at police according to officer _____, no witness to dispute the account."

and the rest of Calguns will have a good time commenting on how dumb I was to have a shotgun in my hand pointing at the intruders.

on topic, so this raid did not require announcement prior to entry?

Hoop
09-03-2007, 5:21 PM
I'm trying very hard not to write a police bashing post. If the family actually resisted this illegal invasion of their home, this could have turned into a very bloody incident. Because of that, those team members and their Gestapo attitudes need to be put somewhere that they can't harm anyone. The fact that they went to a two story house instead of a one story tells me that they didn't do their homework before engaging in this badly planned raid. Those people are a bunch of buffoons and more than a reprimand needs to be done. BTW, don't you just love it when a politician kisses @$$ when they have no legal position.

They aren't regular cops. They're a bunch of macho idiots who slap each other around every morning as a sort of calisthenics. There are times for that sort of stupidity, but at the very least they ought to have gotten the right house. That in and of itself shows that the "TEAM" was probably mismanaged & functioned with very little oversight.

gmcal
09-03-2007, 5:36 PM
My first thought is, I hope this family sues the city and/or the individual officers. There is absolutely no excuse for going to the wrong house. Untrained people that make minimum wage (pizza delivery, for ex.) get it right, why can't an "elite unit" of LEO's?

My second thought is, why do cops feel the need to tell a handcuffed person that if they move the cop will "put a bullet in your head"? During my senior year in high school the local PD took my friends and I at gunpoint and they told several of us that we'd "get a bullet in the head if we moved" after we were cuffed (we were on our knees, with pistols against our skulls and in cuffs). BTW, they had the wrong people. They did however find a weapon, a tire iron. In my friends trunk. Under his spare. Yup, we were dangerous thugs. :rolleyes:

Piper
09-03-2007, 5:52 PM
My first thought is, I hope this family sues the city and/or the individual officers. There is absolutely no excuse for going to the wrong house. Untrained people that make minimum wage (pizza delivery, for ex.) get it right, why can't an "elite unit" of LEO's?

My second thought is, why do cops feel the need to tell a handcuffed person that if they move the cop will "put a bullet in your head"? During my senior year in high school the local PD took my friends and I at gunpoint and they told several of us that we'd "get a bullet in the head if we moved" after we were cuffed (we were on our knees, with pistols against our skulls and in cuffs). BTW, they had the wrong people. They did however find a weapon, a tire iron. In my friends trunk. Under his spare. Yup, we were dangerous thugs. :rolleyes:

You can bet if some mf'r told me or my wife that he would put a bullet in our heads, I would be arresting and filing a criminal complaint for 422 PC. That crosses the line of proper intimidation to maintain control, to outright thuggery. And you can also be assured that if the supervisor refused to accept my arrest of this B@$t@rd and refused to file, I will be making alot of arrests until they got it. And if that still doesn't work, I would be going directly to the D.A.

savageevo
09-03-2007, 6:06 PM
im speechless, after reading that I can't imagine how that family was thinking about when it was happening, was it the police? home invasion? burglery?. what ever they thought, it was a bunch of thugs breaking in. remember the duke la cros incident with nifong, i believe they should pay, I mean really pay, nobody is above the law. everybody involved should get fired and then get arrested for violating there civil liberties.

ccwguy
09-03-2007, 7:38 PM
Gotta love 'no-knock' warrants!

Piper
09-03-2007, 7:46 PM
I'm all for 844'ing some BG's door, but that was just wrong, wrong, wrong. And I think someone other than RSO should be investigating this incident, like say the FBI.

Yankee Clipper
09-03-2007, 8:22 PM
How would you like to be a resident of Temecula and know that could be you cuffed on the floor? Maybe next week, maybe next year. The Chief didn't say it would never happen again but he did say he'd put another team together.

odesskiy
09-03-2007, 8:46 PM
Why in God's name are these morons still not suspended? How can they still be carrying guns and badges?

Steyr_223
09-03-2007, 9:19 PM
Welcome to the New World Order..Glad this was not a Calgunners house or it would have gone bloody quick..

http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/703/300ResisttheNewWorldOrder.jpg

psssniper
09-03-2007, 11:15 PM
Thats what I did. Heres his email

chuck.washington@cityoftemecula.org

And heres my letter, could have been better but I was kind of pissed off when I wrote it.

Dear Mayor Washington ,
It was with a deepening sense of Orwellian horror that I read the article in the North county Times. After reading I felt compelled to write to you and express my opinion. http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2007/09/01/news/californian/20_02_748_31_07.txt
I am very pro law enforcement and have many friends and a younger brother working as LEO here in Orange County Ca. so what I write next is not a knee jerk reaction nor an anti-LEO stance. I believe that the officers involved in this sad miscarriage of justice, written about in the above referenced article, should all be terminated. There is no place in law enforcement for people who cannot do the most basic preparation for their job, such as finding the right address for a raid! This poor family was terrorized by the officers and had their most basic rights violated in the most extreme fashion. Lucky for your “Team of Officers” these innocent people were not prepared to defend themselves. If they had been, one or more of them would surely be dead because I’m sure your “Teams” Gestapo tactics and policies would tolerate no resistance from their victims. If it had been my house that the “Team” had wrongfully entered in that fashion I can assure you that carnage on both sides would have been the order of the day and you would be cleaning up a bigger mess than the one you have on your hands now. Then again maybe that’s why most politicians want to keep the populace unarmed? I hope and pray that you as Mayor can see your way to do the right thing and fire each and everyone of these officers so that a clear message is sent to a “Team” that is clearly out of control.

Paul

Boomer1961
09-03-2007, 11:19 PM
OK, a little off topic here, but this is the second thread in which Boomer1961 has made reference to the actor who played Sheriff Andy Taylor on television's The Andy Griffith Show.

Merv Griffin
http://entimg.msn.com/i/150/TV/2/Griffin_PF003685_150x225.jpg


Andy Griffin
http://www.football.co.uk/shared/images/players/players_9193.jpg


Andy Griffith
http://www.sptimes.com/2002/06/16/photos/flo-griffith.jpg

Sorry, but that was just bugging me. :pTo bad LE does not have a rotation policy like the army so the gung ho types could go into the combat zones and get there taste and have the more sensible Andy Griffin types patrolling my city.
himself.

Where has Andy Griffin gone with his common sense police approach from the days when they were known as Peace officers instead of law enforcement officers.

Ha Ha Ha Ha, me bad, very bad!:(

None the less you prove my point.

Be nice and polite with people as you were to me just now, or expect the worse, think the worse of me as an idiot that is to lazy to google to get the right name then bash my brains out with deragatory statements without even really knowing me and while you are at it make fun of my family by talking about the gene pool and you have todays law enforcement culture that is creeping into even small town USofA with their no knock warrants and home invasions and guilt by assoiciation of being at the address (oops, or wrong address) of the subject and getting the full treatment.

================================

For example of the FIVE times I have had a law enforcement agent draw his weapon on me I provide the following example.

My folks own a summer house in the Sierras in a National forest. It was fun to go target shooting as that is legal (except during hunting season when a hunter’s license is strongly encouraged). Several times while target shooting a ranger or sheriff would stop by and check things out and talk politely and kindly ask to look at things and would even pop a few rounds off.

Well one time when the snow was deep, we saw one of the logger roads was closed and gate was locked, me and a friend decided to hike down this snow bound and closed road about a mile or less and target shoot there (snow was to deep to just plough on through the snow). Well somebody called in a complaint. Well this changes everything as instead of being kindly approached and some chit chat and talking and even shooting guns for fun it is a whole other story. As we were unloading our weapons and cleaning up-picking up brass and such, a dozen or so law enforcement agents including a CHPer, some Rangers (no not the 75th regiment kind, the yogi the bear kind), a game warden I think, and a border patrol agent of all things (as I vividly remember that patch on his shoulder, and thought later he was the sucker that stole my guns), a couple of sheriffs, etc showed up and snuck up on us and drew down on us and made us all plop our faces in the snow and do snow bunnies and spread our wings-MAN, it is hard to breath, I am telling you, laying face first in snow. We were handcuffed and roughed up a bit and threatened with being shot for non compliance at first and our personal gear was rummaged about and thrown in the snow and we were searched, mans hands in my pockets (YIKES! alert alert-DANGER DANGER WILL ROBISON-possible homosexual in your pants-oh god please don't have me get an erection now-this copper will interpret it all wrong!) and our belts get removed (huh? wierd?), then they proceeded to walk us back to our vehicles where they rummaged through them with us protesting and for this being threatened with a free trip to their jail else to shut up and maybe we might be let go.

They were not successful at finding anything like liquor or drugs or loaded weapons in the vehicle. They did not have a clue when they saw targets set up and shooting safety classes and ear muff protection or they pretended to ignore this. Fortunately they did not find anything we did not know about, if you know what I mean, to justify the SWAT team approach. Thank god for some honest cops not piling it on.

In the end they told us to cooperate and we would be let go, but if we protested in any way expect to get locked up because they would not go easy on us (I did ask for higher up supervisor like a sergeant or ranger equivalent as they were the juristictional agency I was told) and they said the supervisors were too far away and if that is what we wanted, fine, that they could arrest us and we could talk to them in jail tomorrow or maybe the day after to tell our story, and if they had time.

Well in the end the end they were having problems on what to cite us for but apparently the CHPer was the brains of the outfit as he decided to cite us for firing within 300 feet (I think that is the correct distance) from a road as that was the best they could do. We tried to argue stating the obvious that it was a closed road with maybe 3 feet of snow and a locked gate and they argued about "a snow mobile could drive that road" which we responded that snow mobiles are illegal on a road because you taught us that several years back with a ticket for an unlicensed motor vehicle on a public road to wit they responded "you really want to go to jail now don't you".

At this point they wrote us up a ticket, or so I thought, and said it would be a simple fine then proceeded to steal, yes steal, not confiscate, our weapons (I will get to that in a minute). They said we could get our firearms back but probably would not want to do that as we would have to go to court and anything can happen in judge "so and so's" court.

Well they let us go but left our stuff in a mess with stuff strewn about everywhere with everything taken out of our vehicles and thrown about onto the snow.

Well here is where I learned about Federal Circuit Court Judges (heard of such on Gunsmoke and other westerns). It appears this judge held court the first and third Fridays in that area of South Lake Tahoe. Since the court office was near our lodgings we immediately went to see what the court was like and to see if there was anyone there that might hear us out.

Well we hit pay dirt. The Federal Circuit Court Judge there was an ex Vietnam Vet and the courthouse (a small shared public building) had his pictures and his decorations and everything hanging on the walls as he was a sniper in Vietnam and had lots of his war pictures and copies of his commendations. He was also a president or something of the junior NRA sporting club or something like that. Now I am thinking I am not paying the fine, I am going to court to get my guns back.

It was a few weeks, then the court paperwork showed up and it had a court date in 3+ months, or in lieu to pay a bond of $2800 (I think the word was bond, it used a word like that which struck me funny and WAS NOT CALLED TICKET/FINE/FEE/ASSESSMENT like I have seen on my parking tickets and had lots of legal mumbo jumbo I did not understand like being under the court for one year from time fine is received if I repeat offend). So I am thinking a couple thousand $ in guns and $2800, bond thing a gun friendly judge-well let’s go to court as we will certainly win this one.

In the end my friend had accepted work in Saudi because the money was to good and he said it would cost him more to miss this job and go to court so he decides to pay the fine and surrender his three guns which meant I was going to court alone-a bad omen for me for sure!

I go to court but here is where I thought I was to smart for my own good. The first person he sees is someone that the rangers arrested for a pickup load of firewood. It seems this was his third time seeing this judge in two years so after the judge explains to him he is given a summary judgment or such and if asks if he understood, judge says he really needs to learn a lesson and time to think about why he was in court again and gives him a 6 month to think about it. HOLY COW!:eek: says I. There was not even like a jury trial or anything. What is going on? I must have msised something. And the judge orders immediate surrender for incarceration.

The next is a lady that looked well to do from Los Angeles that shoplifted from a tourist store on Federal land they said. WOMP! The gavel strikes again and it is 60 days in jail. I must have blinked and missed the jury trial. Judge was nice enough to say since this is the your first offense apparenlty, I am giving you 7 days to get your things in together and order you by such and such a date to report to such and such jail. If you fail I will add another 30 days or such and such (its like I am not hearing things correctly as everything sounds muffled now as my heart races and sweat drips off my back and I hear these really really loud drums beating in my ear and I know it is my heart racing)

The next is a fellow was someone caught snow mobiling in a "PRESERVE". Judge says this is your second offense and last time you chose to not appear in court and to pay the bond in lieu of in the amount of $3500 (jeez, $3500 for essentially a very minor traffic ticket). He says you clearly did not learn your lesson last time, so he wanted to see this person appear in his court so he could get the message directly this time and not have another repeat offense.

The fella says he and his friend got lost and they were trying to get back and only went maybe 300 feet into the preserve as was explained to him by the rangers that caught him and that most of the signs were covered up by the snow and that there was no fences to demarcate the area that is right next to a popular snow mobile area.

Boomer1961
09-03-2007, 11:19 PM
The judge said he did not care if it was only 6 inches and that it was clearly posted and that this man had a summer home in the area and would have knowledge of the preserve and all the signs but obviously chose to ignore it for his personal pleasure.

He also stated that he was disappointed that the other party chose not to appear in his court and to pay the bond instead as he was certain he would see this gentleman again shortly as he would probably be a repeat offender. He then lectures the fellow about being selfish and in need of a lesson and about how his last court papers where he chose to pay the bond instead of appearing stated that if he repeated the offense that the court could still incarcerate him for that offense because he was stating he was guilty of the crime by submitting the bond payment, and clearly he was not getting the message by thinking he could have his own personal snow mobile reserve simply because he had money to pay court orderd bonds. He then proceeds to summarily sentence the fellow to 30 days for the first time and 6 months for the second time with orders for the jail to let him go at 120 says if he behaves in jail. WOMP! the judges gavel strikes again! (this is where I soiling my pants because I am up next).

Well they call me and all my courage and bravado just faded away. The judge starts out by saying he was happy to see me in his court instead of paying the bond as it showed respect and wishes that this was a requirement as everyone that pays the bond seems to come to court eventually anyways.

Well the judge says this is an arraignment, I could enter a guilty plea and he would then be able to do summary judgment or I could enter a not guilty plea and he would set up a court date. I am thinking jimeny Christmas-keep my guns and I will pay the fine, I will pay double or triple the fine, let me out of this place, please God, I do not want to go to jail for six months.

Well I plead guilty. The judge then says are you sure you understand the plea you are entering and what the charges are and the severity and that he could sentence me to jail right then and there and do you understand you have a right to have legal counsel before entering such a plea (you see my cheap ar$e thought going into this it was a slam dunk and to save myself $2500 for a retainer and $500 for a court appearance-I did call around the Tahoe area for lawyers and the picking were slim and it was going to cost this much).

He then tells the court the to document the Mr. so and so is entering a guilty plea at this time and waives his right to counsel and states he understands the consequences of his decision then says before I sentence you do you have anything to say. I said it is a summertime road it was snowed in and the gate was closed/locked and so on and so on.

He says I understand, then he says the smallest amount his court can fine for any guilty plea in a federal court was $5 and he had no choice since I entered a guilty plea that I would have to pay it (WHoa, I outsmarted myself again, I should have pleaded not guilty and got a lawyer as now I am a misdemeanor offender). The judge then asks the ranger supervisor who represented the prosecuting agency if they had my guns. He said yes. He says he is giving a summary order or such that before sundown that if I am ready and request to receive the return of my firearms that they should do so. Well court is over for me, one more person to go, but I need to get some air so I leave. But the judge says before you gentelman leave my court please sign the papework the clerk has for both of you. Afterwards I wait in the hall for the ranger and ask him about the firearms. He says shouldn't be a problem. He then calls on the radio. After a bit they call him back and I hear ............."there is a problem".........

uh oh!:(

Well now court is out and the judge stops by and starts chatting if I am an NRA member, and I say yes (can you go to jail for lying to a judge?), he says well done, then says if you have any problems getting your firearms back to come back to his court. I say there all ready is a problem as the ranger supervisor is appearing evasive. He then proceeds over to him and says to him that he does not want to see either of us in his court so he better work things out with me.

Well the ranger says no problem to the judge, and after he leaves the ranger supervisor gave me some story about how he is from another district and filling in for this one this week and no one on duty can access to the gun safe. I said the judge told me I would get them that day. He asks me to understand and says give me your address and I will ship them back to you at our expense. Seemed reasonable to me.

I go back home to the Bay Area. Two weeks pass by and no guns. I call the ranger office number I was given and was told the supervisor I had talked to was unavailable and to leave a message. Well like three more weeks of this goes on. Finally when I call I ask to speak to whoever was in charge that day. I explain everything to him, he says he is unaware of any of this and he can not promise anything till he investigates and that he would call back. Well he doesn't. Next day I call again and ask for the supervisor and it is a totally different person Same story about not knowing anything and he will investigate. No call back. To my misfortune I had to leave the state for 2 months for work. I called the idiot rangers a few more time while away, and call home to see if the guns show up, and no go.

I then called the judges office and left a message. He ended up calling my house and talking to people there and saying he was going to make a phone call as they were in violation of the court. Next day the rangers call my house and leave a message that they were mailing my guns back. Few days later my guns show up, or so I thought. For checking I just said there should be six guns, are there?, they say yes. THANK GOD THIS IS OVER, or not.:confused:

Well a month later I come back home from gun friendly Texas (where at work there is a sign, it says no concealed firearms, so I ask if it is not concealed is it OK and they all turn their heads and give me a dirty look). I am eager to look at my guns. I look, WTF?:eek:

There are six guns, three are mine including an AR-7, Ruger MkII and a my mini NAA revolver, but where is my 870, my AR-15, and my Glock. Seems there was a single shot shotgun of some funny named brand, a marlin 22 semi-rifle, and one of those cheappy cheapy LA pot metal 9mm's I think it was a Bryco. I immediately call the rangers and again the supervisor I call was clueless (a different one again and that made like five now including the one in court).

I then call the judge and leave a message and he calls back in like a half hour and I explain this huge mix-up and he says he has never heard of such a thing and that this would be a clear violation of his court order. He then directs me to immediately surrender them the three extra firearms but I explain that I can not just take off work like that so he directs me to my local PD and to have them faux a report to his court and he was going to enter it into his proceedings and have a document ordering the surrender of these three firearms sent to me and to my local PD.

Now for the really confusing part. I called my PD and said I wanted to surrender the firearms in question, they say sure no problrm, then I start explaining, and they say "WHAT"? I repeat it over and over then they said something about since it is court related they didn't want to have anything to do with it without something called and adjunct. So I call back to the judge and his clerk answers and she knows all about my situation (whew, for the first time no repeating the whole long story). She says she will faux the adjunct to my local PD. Later that day I call my local PD and they said they received whatever it was they wanted and to come back not the next day but the day after because they had no one to receive the firearms (how weird), they tell me to call some detective that day.

I take a day off work, call the detective, he switches me over to some reserve officer who says to drive there with the firearms unloaded and to keep them locked in the trunk and to leave them there when I come to the office. I follow instructions and that officer then takes my keys and goes to my car and retrieves the firearms.

I then stated I wanted a report sent to the court. He says it will cost $25 and take two weeks minimum-YIKES!:p

Next day I call the judges office, as usual I leave a message, he calls back later that day and says to call him again after he receives the surrender report.

Two weeks later I call my local PD and say I wanted a copy of the report and is it sent yet. They say no, and then also inform me since it is two copies that it would be another $25. Never heard of such a thing I tell you. If I was not so determined to have the report sent directly from my local PD to the Tahoe circuit court I would only by one and then copy it.

Next day I call report still not ready, next day, oh- it will be a few more days. A few more days-call us later today. Later today-ok it is ready and for two copies that will be $50 (since then I here something about some law that says there are limits to what they can charge). I get my copy direct them to faux and send by certified mail one copy directly to the court.

I wait about a week, call the judge, he is out for four weeks for vacation or something, I end up getting in touch with the clerk and she says to wait as you don't want the fill in judge.....OK, I waited like almost 6 months now, what's another one.

Boomer1961
09-03-2007, 11:20 PM
In the meantime I am also calling the rangers periodically. They have no answer other than saying the firearms they took from me were returned as ordered and that they had no further comment except to add that possibly they were stolen by UPS.

Well after about a month I contact the judge, he calls back and says he received the report and repeats he never heard of such a thing. I say since it was a court order to return on what to do. He said he had talked to the rangers and they said that they complied. He tells me now something I have never heard of in that he says to go to that ranger station and to file a report at that station for having my guns stolen. WOW!:D He also tells me to get a lawyer if I ever want to see my guns again and that he welcomes seeing what will come of this.

Well I pay my family's attorney for $250 to write a nasty lawyer like letter to the rangers and to the court and saying we were going to file a theft report (it was only that cheap because he was a family lawyer we all do business with and was for just a letter-further help meant more money)

Like three or four days later or so I get a call from the Rangers saying they located my missing firearms and that they were sending a ranger to my house with them, just give a time. I say right now. They said how about tomorrow at noon, I say how about 4:30 so I don't have to take a day off so they say ok. Next day at almost precisely 4:30 pm a SUV type ranger vehicle drives into my court-like in street court-not judges court-I am watching out the window. He comes to the door, I open it. He says he has some firearms he wants me to look at and verify they are mine. I say OK.

Well he brings them in all loose-no boxes or cases-and sets them on my kitchen table-oh my god-these are my firearms-:D He then says he is authorized to release them but I had to sign some forms. They were all printed out with details about the incident, the date, the citing officer’s name, the court action and date, the return order, acknowledgement that these were my firearms-a release of sort saying that this concludes the court action and that I had no further grievance. Further more the ranger said that if I did not sign that he would not return the firearms.

I am thankful that it is over, or so I thought. I sign like three different documents-ya I should have had the lawyer look at them-but this is their police tactics. like the used car salesman tactics, where they tease you, where I saw conclusion of the ordeal just inches away on the table-if I do not sign then maybe the guns get lost again for another six months-more than likely when I file the theft reprort the rangers mysteriously find drugs in my car while it is parked in their parking lot-nah lets not go there-oh give me the dam pen I will sign, I really don't want trouble, just what I am entitled to by law and judges decision.

So later that evening I look at my guns. Huh-funny mark on my 870. It's a wear mark around the barrel-don't remember that before. Reminds me of the mark left on police shotguns from the locking thing in the car. Whoa-my GLOCK, my poor baby and pampered GLOCK-the finish around the front site and the corners on the front/top of the slide are worn-UH? Looks like holster wear-only I don't wear a holster and certainly know better than carry my GLOCK around with me. My AR15, oh pray tell what did they do to you my honey. I look at it. Looks fine, looks to fine, wait a minute-IT'S BEEN CLEANED-as confiscated it had like 100 rounds through it-wait a minute-the GLOCK is clean to-and the 870 has been cleaned.....

.....thinking, thinking, that border agent-his comments about us being better armed than him or his department, thinking thinking-his comment about they are not even allowed to use confiscated firearms and I questioned him about that sayin I saw in 60 minutes that was not true-thinking thinking ---2 + 2 equals -----ha ha- BORDER AGENT STOLE MY GUNS AND WENT BACK TO WHERE HE CAME FROM (ARIZONA HE SAID) SO THE RANGERS COULD NOT RETURN MY FIREARMS-BINGO THE ANSWER TO TWO PLUS TWO IS FOUR.

So I thought over that night, not being able to sleep, if I should make a stink and have 30 days Judge Harry teach the rangers and border agent a lesson. Then again best let sleeping dogs lie as I now have my guns which is what I was fighting for.

I called the judge the next day-left a message. He did not call back but a letter from his court was sent to me saying they are finding the rangers in compliance with the return order.

Never called that judge again. He was actually really really cool. Wish we had more of them. In the end I think he was not to strict after all as all those people he sent to jail had paid a bond or such in lieu of court and agreeing the action was not completed and could be revisited for similar further violations. For me it was for a period of one year in which the judge said if I came back to his court or he heard about a simlar violation in another court that was firearms related or weapons or violence related, that he still held jurisdiction in the matter up to and including incarceration. Needless to say I lied low and did not do any public lands shooting for a year or more.

Kind of wish I kept in touch with that judge and knew what happened to him. Also kind of neat that his court was really low key and common sense and just like Jesse James and Matt Dillon and such as the court was really like those in the westerns, and best of all I had my day in Front of a Real Life Federal Circuit Court Judge, just hope it never happens again.

Well I see I told this story again-at least I believe it’s the first time at CalGuns-maybe some of you saw it at another gun friendly forum...


[WHEW HOO-CALGUNNERS eagerly clap and whoop it up in anticipation that he is done typing]

Well I like to repeat this story whenever I here about wacky law enforcement story. I have a few more whoppers like this one, some where I was partly at fault, but I still have the right to vote and right to keep and bear arms so that should tell you something....

carsonwales
09-03-2007, 11:41 PM
Well I see I told this story again-at least I believe it’s the first time at CalGuns-maybe some of you saw it at another gun friendly forum...


[WHEW HOO-CALGUNNERS eagerly clap and whoop it up in anticipation that he is done typing]

Well I like to repeat this story whenever I here about wacky law enforcement. I have a few more whoppers like this one, some where I was partly at fault, but I still have the right to vote and right to keep and bear arms so that should tell you something....

That is an amazing tale....

Oh my god.....

Thank you for taking the time to write that up....

jkasandiego
09-03-2007, 11:48 PM
Those officers involved should be fired!!!

pnkssbtz
09-04-2007, 3:28 AM
Hey wait guys!

You are all ANTI-LEO, I see how the people of calguns REALLY ARE!

This is rare I tell you, RARE!

Why, not more than 1 botched dynamic entry raid happens a month, you guys are all cowards and will be thanking god when you need a police officer to bail you out of that jam that the SCOTUS has decreed the LEO's are not there to protect you from.


P.S. They should of known the instant they kicked that door that they had the wrong house by looking at the people they busted in on.

I bet they didn't even know what the real suspect even looked like.

Should be Attempted murder for the guy who threatened the wife and everything else under the sun for the other perpetrators.

KenpoProfessor
09-04-2007, 3:34 AM
Hey wait guys!

You are all ANTI-LEO, I see how the people of calguns REALLY ARE!

This is rare I tell you, RARE!

Why, not more than 1 botched dynamic entry raid happens a month, you guys are all cowards and will be thanking god when you need a police officer to bail you out of that jam that the SCOTUS has decreed the LEO's are not there to protect you from.


P.S. They should of known the instant they kicked that door that they had the wrong house by looking at the people they busted in on.

I bet they didn't even know what the real suspect even looked like.

Should be Attempted murder for the guy who threatened the wife and everything else under the sun for the other perpetrators.

The very first indicator what that it was a 2 story house. You'd think someone with even average intelligence would notice the difference.:mad:.

It's funny, I haven't heard of one bad no knock raid here in AZ over the last few years, wonder why that is? If someone can find one, I'd love to read the details.

Have a great gun carryin' Kenpo day

Clyde

spencerhut
09-04-2007, 6:55 AM
Dear Mr. Washington,

This is regards to the story posted here: http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2007/09/01/news/californian/20_02_748_31_07.txt

You may want to rethink the policies of your police department. The use of no knock warrants is an unnecessary and very dangerous tactic. Had the victims in the house in question been armed there surely would have been bloodshed for no reason at all, it would have been more of a tragedy than it already is. Try to put you own family in their place. Now consider that criminals understand these police tactics and are using these very same tactics to do home invasion robberies.

Please take some time to read this information from the folks at the CATO institute:.

This entire text can be downloaded for free and is a really good read. You are a mayor take some responsibility and inform yourself:
http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=6476

Your town will soon be on this map of police raids that terrified, injured or killed innocent people.
http://www.cato.org/raidmap/

simonov
09-04-2007, 7:31 AM
Holy smoke!!!

Why can't whoever ordering the raid, personally go to the location, and take a photograph of the "house".....

So, they won't just go by "address".... and mistaking taken a single-story house with 2-stories...

@!$!#%!@#!@
I share everyone's outrage over the police hitting the wrong house, but even if it was the right house their behavior was still pretty over the top.

And seriously, WTF is an armed citizen expected to do when a gang of armed thugs break down your door and tie up your loved ones?

The more popular these no-knock warrants get, the more dead cops we will start to see, as well as entire families wiped out when the better armed cops respond to an armed citizen protecting his home and family. Remember what happened at Waco.

simonov
09-04-2007, 7:53 AM
Never called that judge again. He was actually really really cool. Wish we had more of them. In the end I think he was not to strict after all as all those people he sent to jail had paid a bond or such in lieu of court and agreeing the action was not completed and could be revisited for similar further violations.

Everyone should spend a morning or afternoon in a courtroom and see how the judge goes through the docket. First time I did it really opened my eyes.

In my experience, and in yours, I noticed a trend. The judges put a lot of people in jail, but it was always people who in one way or another ignored the expressed orders of the court. In your case it was the repeat offenders; what I saw was a judge throwing people in jail for failure to appear or driving on a suspended license. These violations are like a slap in the face to the judge, like you don't take the judge and the court seriously. Clearly they hate that.

Ordinary first offenders, on the other hand, were usually treated respectfully and, for the most part, leniently.

eta34
09-04-2007, 9:12 AM
Statistically speaking, it is rare. Compared to the number of warrants served daily/weekly/yearly, this rarely happens. The point is that it should NEVER happen. As a LEO, there is no excuse for this.


Hey wait guys!

You are all ANTI-LEO, I see how the people of calguns REALLY ARE!

This is rare I tell you, RARE!

Why, not more than 1 botched dynamic entry raid happens a month, you guys are all cowards and will be thanking god when you need a police officer to bail you out of that jam that the SCOTUS has decreed the LEO's are not there to protect you from.


P.S. They should of known the instant they kicked that door that they had the wrong house by looking at the people they busted in on.

I bet they didn't even know what the real suspect even looked like.

Should be Attempted murder for the guy who threatened the wife and everything else under the sun for the other perpetrators.

savageevo
09-04-2007, 9:47 AM
eta. I commend you for understanding the average joe, (like us:p). you should apply at the temecula police department and manage these rambo gustova. We need more people like you to be in these departments. :)

pnkssbtz
09-04-2007, 10:19 AM
Statistically speaking, it is rare. Compared to the number of warrants served daily/weekly/yearly, this rarely happens. The point is that it should NEVER happen. As a LEO, there is no excuse for this.

True, if you think of the total number of warrants served it is rare.

But I've been reading about a new incident every month for the last year.


How many innocent people must die / be assaulted before the Police Departments realize the severity of the situation and crack down on no-knock and/or dynamic entries?

eta34
09-04-2007, 10:56 AM
Look, I am with you on that. In the grand scheme of things, is it worth it to kill ANYBODY over a little bit of dope? For example, if you are raiding a house that has a couple of pounds/kilos, after the knock/notice, there will be little time for the bad guy to flush it. If he has an ounce or two and flushes it, oh well. The chances are that he will get caught again.

There should be very few exceptions to the knock/notice rule. I would prefer a surround/call-out situation on most days. There is a lower likelihood that the cops get shot, a bad guy gets shot, or worst-case-scenario, an innocent bystander or resident gets shot.

Simple intel and doing one's homework would eliminate these kinds of things. These warrants are not simply things that are written and executed in a matter of seconds. A great deal of planning should take place.

I have been in a situation in which we were about to serve a warrant, realized the address on the warrant did not match the one on the residence (correct house, typo on the warrant). The investigating detective and lead man in the "raid team" noticed the error immediately. We retreated, corrected the warrant, had it re-signed by the judge, and came back later.

I understand that by nature, cops are human, and mistakes will happen. We often get bad intel. I try to corroborate every bit of information I get. Sometimes the intel is believable on its face, checks out after further investigation, but ends up being bad. Going to the wrong house completely is just poor police work.

I think most of the people on this board are reasonable and understand that most of us realize the significant responsibility we possess in "violating" the 4th amendment.

Bad Voodoo
09-04-2007, 11:08 AM
Look, I am with you on that. In the grand scheme of things, is it worth it to kill ANYBODY over a little bit of dope? For example, if you are raiding a house that has a couple of pounds/kilos, after the knock/notice, there will be little time for the bad guy to flush it. If he has an ounce or two and flushes it, oh well. The chances are that he will get caught again.

There should be very few exceptions to the knock/notice rule. I would prefer a surround/call-out situation on most days. There is a lower likelihood that the cops get shot, a bad guy gets shot, or worst-case-scenario, an innocent bystander or resident gets shot.

Simple intel and doing one's homework would eliminate these kinds of things. These warrants are not simply things that are written and executed in a matter of seconds. A great deal of planning should take place.

I have been in a situation in which we were about to serve a warrant, realized the address on the warrant did not match the one on the residence (correct house, typo on the warrant). The investigating detective and lead man in the "raid team" noticed the error immediately. We retreated, corrected the warrant, had it re-signed by the judge, and came back later.

I understand that by nature, cops are human, and mistakes will happen. We often get bad intel. I try to corroborate every bit of information I get. Sometimes the intel is believable on its face, checks out after further investigation, but ends up being bad. Going to the wrong house completely is just poor police work.

I think most of the people on this board are reasonable and understand that most of us realize the significant responsibility we possess in "violating" the 4th amendment.

Well said, eta.

-voodoo

odesskiy
09-04-2007, 11:11 AM
Look, I am with you on that. In the grand scheme of things, is it worth it to kill ANYBODY over a little bit of dope? For example, if you are raiding a house that has a couple of pounds/kilos, after the knock/notice, there will be little time for the bad guy to flush it. If he has an ounce or two and flushes it, oh well. The chances are that he will get caught again.

There should be very few exceptions to the knock/notice rule. I would prefer a surround/call-out situation on most days. There is a lower likelihood that the cops get shot, a bad guy gets shot, or worst-case-scenario, an innocent bystander or resident gets shot.

Simple intel and doing one's homework would eliminate these kinds of things. These warrants are not simply things that are written and executed in a matter of seconds. A great deal of planning should take place.

I have been in a situation in which we were about to serve a warrant, realized the address on the warrant did not match the one on the residence (correct house, typo on the warrant). The investigating detective and lead man in the "raid team" noticed the error immediately. We retreated, corrected the warrant, had it re-signed by the judge, and came back later.

I understand that by nature, cops are human, and mistakes will happen. We often get bad intel. I try to corroborate every bit of information I get. Sometimes the intel is believable on its face, checks out after further investigation, but ends up being bad. Going to the wrong house completely is just poor police work.

I think most of the people on this board are reasonable and understand that most of us realize the significant responsibility we possess in "violating" the 4th amendment.

To me the main issue was the behavior of police officers. Even if it was the RIGHT house, you just can't treat human beings the way they did. Even if they human beings happen to be disgusting drug-dealing scumbags, denying a mother access to her crying baby smells too much of gestapo techniques. The problem is, if this WAS the right house, noone would ever listen to these facts. After all, what is the word of a criminal worth going against the word of "Temecula's Finest".

I am even more outraged at the actions of the city personnel. How could they fail to at least suspend officers involved in this incident? How can the public feel safe when these bozos are still out there carrying guns and badges???

pnkssbtz
09-04-2007, 11:42 AM
eta34, well said!

We need more people like you keeping our streets safe.

Satex
09-04-2007, 11:48 AM
I understand that by nature, cops are human, and mistakes will happen. We often get bad intel. I try to corroborate every bit of information I get. Sometimes the intel is believable on its face, checks out after further investigation, but ends up being bad. Going to the wrong house completely is just poor police work.

I think most of the people on this board are reasonable and understand that most of us realize the significant responsibility we possess in "violating" the 4th amendment.

Absolutely, and since in a democracy there are CHECKS and BALANCES, there should be a balance for law enforcement doing such careless work. At present, the only balance is "we are sorry". That such balance isn't balancing.

ghettoshecky
09-04-2007, 12:07 PM
If they came through my door I would be dead on sight, since I usually keep a shotgun ready for violent armed intruders and if the police got the wrong address and cam to my place, I would be shot and they would have a "valid reason" for shooting me.

"the suspect had a gun".

by the time the media gets a hold of it will be "suspect shot in raid, pointed a shotgun at police according to officer _____, no witness to dispute the account."

and the rest of Calguns will have a good time commenting on how dumb I was to have a shotgun in my hand pointing at the intruders.

on topic, so this raid did not require announcement prior to entry?

Yeah I totally am in the same position of CAL. I would've pulled out my XD9 or my HK, whatever I had on me and it would've been very very very bad. I have very little experience on law enforcement, but from what I see on TV they usually announce that is the police with a warrant before busting down the door. Also if you guys ever watch that show on Bravo called Dallas SWAT, the sergeant and either an assisting sergeant or second in command goes to the house to do recon (ie taking pictures, drawing diagrams, making mental notes, etc.)before the raid. Say if it was the right house and the parolee was armed and dangerous or even just had a big scary dog, it would've turned out very bad for the police. I don't know about the whole team, but the sergeant and corporal should be held responsible. They should at least force the sergeant to retire if he has the needed years.

simonov
09-04-2007, 12:11 PM
I understand that by nature, cops are human, and mistakes will happen. We often get bad intel. I try to corroborate every bit of information I get. Sometimes the intel is believable on its face, checks out after further investigation, but ends up being bad. Going to the wrong house completely is just poor police work.

That's why we used to have a Bill of Rights.

simonov
09-04-2007, 12:12 PM
I have very little experience on law enforcement, but from what I see on TV they usually announce that is the police with a warrant before busting down the door.

You know what, if I and four of my friends wanted to perform a home invasion, we could do the same thing.

Is that like a get out of jail free card?

StukaJr
09-04-2007, 12:33 PM
That is some poor showing and the fact that they endangered a child/not clear mother to take care of a 5 month old baby - that deserves a talk with the career office, pronto. Not once in that story did I read the word "Warrant" - was this an entry without a warrant? Maybe these kind of "mistakes" will put a leash on these ninja jackbooted entries into people's residences...

Officer safety is one thing, but when do they start caring for citizen safety, they are entrusted to protect? I was watering the plants about 10PM and saw another "elite" team making an "entry" - van pulled up to the side of the street and out come 3 highly tactical officers, that begin approaching 12-unit apartment building with their weapons at the mid ready, with another staying across the street. I don't know if there were any officers coming from the back, but the 3 making the frontal approach had 2 AR-15's on point and a 870 in the rear. The pointman was literally approaching a building with his AR trained chest high, approaching an apartment building that housed multiple families not to mention the neighboring buildings.

Everything was quiet, then I heard some talking, maybe laughing and then the "team" departed - no suspects in tow and in very relaxed manner... Police officer safety or not, I really feel uneasy if LAPD responds to calls with this kind of response - I don't want to be a guy faced with AR's muzzle when walking my dog... Or be on the way to my patio BBQ with a steak knife and fork to test the meat...

ghettoshecky
09-04-2007, 1:24 PM
You know what, if I and four of my friends wanted to perform a home invasion, we could do the same thing.

Is that like a get out of jail free card?

Uhh noooo because they would give me a chance to open the door for them and then I can see that they are really police or not. Do I have mention that they give you some time before they bust down the door (in all honesty I've never seen them just yell police and bust down your door without at LEAST 5-10secs)? Usually they bust it down because they just hear running in the backround as if they are trying to hide something. Usually I wonder why they don't go in faster, but from what I see on TV they give them more than enough time to get to the front door. If it was my home, then I would have enough time. If it was my parents home I would be able to look out my window real quick. If you and you friends were in plain clothes with no marked car I would at least pop a few rounds in your direction before maybe you get me.

Hoop
09-04-2007, 2:14 PM
Absolutely, and since in a democracy there are CHECKS and BALANCES, there should be a balance for law enforcement doing such careless work. At present, the only balance is "we are sorry". That sort of balance isn't balancing.

What they need to do is stop giving carte blanche to small departments when it comes to developing "counter-terrorism-narcotics-super-units". Why should a small department (like a certain one down in the bay area I know of) have 4 dozen AR-15's, ALL of which need to be replaced right away (they are 10-year-old bushmasters, I guess they don't work as well as they used to)? 3 Hummers to stop the terrorists? Air-to-air missiles?

That's why you read more and more about this kind of stuff - small departments are getting funding for these super-units, and they have to justify their existence.

CalNRA
09-04-2007, 4:09 PM
I share everyone's outrage over the police hitting the wrong house, but even if it was the right house their behavior was still pretty over the top.

And seriously, WTF is an armed citizen expected to do when a gang of armed thugs break down your door and tie up your loved ones?

The more popular these no-knock warrants get, the more dead cops we will start to see, as well as entire families wiped out when the better armed cops respond to an armed citizen protecting his home and family. Remember what happened at Waco.

good lord I'm agreeing with Siminov....

carsonwales
09-04-2007, 4:30 PM
Look, I am with you on that. In the grand scheme of things, is it worth it to kill ANYBODY over a little bit of dope? For example, if you are raiding a house that has a couple of pounds/kilos, after the knock/notice, there will be little time for the bad guy to flush it. If he has an ounce or two and flushes it, oh well. The chances are that he will get caught again.

There should be very few exceptions to the knock/notice rule. I would prefer a surround/call-out situation on most days. There is a lower likelihood that the cops get shot, a bad guy gets shot, or worst-case-scenario, an innocent bystander or resident gets shot.

Simple intel and doing one's homework would eliminate these kinds of things. These warrants are not simply things that are written and executed in a matter of seconds. A great deal of planning should take place.

I have been in a situation in which we were about to serve a warrant, realized the address on the warrant did not match the one on the residence (correct house, typo on the warrant). The investigating detective and lead man in the "raid team" noticed the error immediately. We retreated, corrected the warrant, had it re-signed by the judge, and came back later.

I understand that by nature, cops are human, and mistakes will happen. We often get bad intel. I try to corroborate every bit of information I get. Sometimes the intel is believable on its face, checks out after further investigation, but ends up being bad. Going to the wrong house completely is just poor police work.

I think most of the people on this board are reasonable and understand that most of us realize the significant responsibility we possess in "violating" the 4th amendment.

Good cop.

Good American

Thank you for your 'diligent' law enforcement work.

pnkssbtz
09-04-2007, 4:46 PM
Uhh noooo because they would give me a chance to open the door for them and then I can see that they are really police or not. Do I have mention that they give you some time before they bust down the door (in all honesty I've never seen them just yell police and bust down your door without at LEAST 5-10secs)? Usually they bust it down because they just hear running in the backround as if they are trying to hide something. Usually I wonder why they don't go in faster, but from what I see on TV they give them more than enough time to get to the front door. If it was my home, then I would have enough time. If it was my parents home I would be able to look out my window real quick. If you and you friends were in plain clothes with no marked car I would at least pop a few rounds in your direction before maybe you get me.

A "No-Knock" entry means that they do not announce their presence.


And 5-10 seconds is not enough time for me to hear, recognize and get to the front door from the master bedroom in my house. Nor do I think 5-10 seconds is sufficient except in rare circumstances involving studio apartments.

No offense, but 5-10 seconds enough time to recognize the sound and break out a window and then flee?

Bull****.


TV != Real World Happenings

AKman
09-04-2007, 5:35 PM
A few years ago there were some home invasion robberies committed by people wearing jackets printed with "POLICE" on the back and driving cars that looked like unmarked police cars. They mainly worked Hispanic neighborhoods in the greater Los Angeles area. I know there is no valid reason for the police to raid my house (well, except for posting here and owning an undisclosed number of OLLs) and would likely assume that they were not real police. Since I know all the officers that work my beat and have met a fairly large number of local police (including SWAT and their snipers), I feel I would have a sporting chance of determining if it was a real raid, however mistaken it might be. They would also show up with their armored vehicle and fully auto ARs. Since the beat commander has been to my house and has seen all the dead things on the walls, I'm either on a list that says knock politely, or one that says blow the place up...

As for the Temecula knuckleheads, if they can't tell the difference between a family and their prime suspect, or a one versus two story house, they should be encouraged to find another line of work.

simonov
09-04-2007, 5:38 PM
As for the Temecula knuckleheads, if they can't tell the difference between a family and their prime suspect, or a one versus two story house, they should be encouraged to find another line of work.

Are you suggesting dudes on probation don't have families?

This sort of raid is uncalled for in any circumstance except an immediate and known threat to human life.

JohnJW
09-04-2007, 6:18 PM
What would be the consequences of us shooting back at armed people breaking into our house that later turn out to be police officers and they were at the wrong house? for following 4 scenarios?

A. We died. End of story
B. We lived and no one was hurt.
C. We lived but they were wounded.
D. We lived but they died.

We have no idea it was the police when we started firing.

This is just a hypothetical question. It'll take me a few minutes to to open the safe, run to the garage and load the magazines so . . . hmm. . . I better fortified all my doors then. . . . maybe have a permanent sign on my front door asking all visitors to double check and make sure they have the right house . ..

Yeah, there are way too many SWAT teams out running around here in SoCal. Every department no matter how small wants their own "tactical" team. . . donno how much budget and training they receive though. . . . I still remember the grandfather shot dead by El Monte SWAT in Compton due to poor intel, ie sloppy police work, ie negligence, back in 99'.

Scarecrow Repair
09-04-2007, 7:13 PM
It's funny, I haven't heard of one bad no knock raid here in AZ over the last few years, wonder why that is? If someone can find one, I'd love to read the details.

Using the link supplied above, http://www.cato.org/raidmap/, one finds one in 2004 (complete with APC!), one in 2003, and then back to 1994 for the next one.

scattered_x
09-04-2007, 8:12 PM
I think everything has pretty much been said. Just to add my opinion; every one of those JBT's needs to be fired. The morons responsible for the poor investigative work, as well as the chicken ****s with the bad a** attitudes have no business in law enforcement.

Creeping Incrementalism
09-04-2007, 8:33 PM
The 2AF just put out a press release stating that the Forest Service acknowledged its regulation prohibiting shooting within 150 yards of any road is invalid (http://www.saf.org/viewpr-new.asp?id=239). Furthermore, I doubt a closed logging road could be considered a road at all. Most people when they go off-range plinking just goes a little distance off an unused or mostly unused "road" (generally, just wide tracks that the logging trucks use) with their vehicle, then parks and starts shooting. Targets/guns/ammo are too heavy to haul further than that.

So what you believe happened is the BP agent was using your firearms as his duty guns, and after the pressure got put on him by the Rangers he sent them back to the station, and they delivered them to you?

Your story explains why people are willing to spend so much on lawyers.

Addax
09-04-2007, 11:26 PM
I hate to say it folks, but this family just won the lottery, the hard and stressful way, but they won it...

Boomer1961
09-05-2007, 12:01 AM
The 2AF just put out a press release stating that the Forest Service acknowledged its regulation prohibiting shooting within 150 yards of any road is invalid (http://www.saf.org/viewpr-new.asp?id=239). Furthermore, I doubt a closed logging road could be considered a road at all. Most people when they go off-range plinking just goes a little distance off an unused or mostly unused "road" (generally, just wide tracks that the logging trucks use) with their vehicle, then parks and starts shooting. Targets/guns/ammo are too heavy to haul further than that.

So what you believe happened is the BP agent was using your firearms as his duty guns, and after the pressure got put on him by the Rangers he sent them back to the station, and they delivered them to you?

Your story explains why people are willing to spend so much on lawyers.

First, as your name implies, the tortoise always beats the rabbit except on Tuesdays when the fastest usually wins over the slow and steady which we never notice because it happens slowly, then it is too late.

2nd yes as I always did plinking from dirt roads and never did the distance rule properly if enforced that way from those dirt and gravel trails, in my case back in January 1997 when they must have did the mutual response thing (my conclusion due to so many of one or two officers from different agencies being there) and showing up to play SWAT and also later learning their was in house political work place infighting with Federal Rangers not getting guns of their own to shoot law breakers while they insisted on getting them if they were to do LE functions, and met Duly authorized Federal Officers with ability to carry guns (marshals, Border patrol agents, game wardens, etc) were being rotated in and paired with rangers at that time. Even saw such on the national news later (oh the power of government employee unions) as it caught my interest and I made a point of watching as it being exactly what I experienced.

I think Rangers recently won the work place right to carry firearms when they are doing LE- just I gulp at that because I think they might shoot Yogi the Bear and that they are Forrest rangers there to help us with enjoying the national Forrest, not doing LE stuff. What happened to cross reciprocity with the sheriff's LE for that kind of stuff when needed.

Yes I concluded the Border Patrol Agent somehow managed to take my guns and probably use them for his duties or personal use, but was not complying or could not be contacted or such. Non compliance for ordinary Joe could result with incarceration.

None the less when you get what is important to you let it go as the "THEY" are people too with the same emotions and needs as I and could easily get pissed off and make my life miserable.