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JawBone
08-31-2007, 8:41 AM
Here's one that makes you think - as the GunNews site said - "What was this guys crime exactly?"

South Bend resident raided by ATF had ammunition stockpile, feds say
(http://www.southbendtribune.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070830/News01/70830042/0/Lives)
By JOSHUA STOWE
Tribune Staff Writer

SOUTH BEND — Police and federal agents who searched a South 28th Street home on Wednesday were looking for ammunition, court documents reveal.

A federal affidavit unsealed today indicates that yesterday’s search and arrest came after a months-long investigation into a man whom authorities believe is delusional and has long been stockpiling ammunition.

South Bend police and agents from the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives arrived Wednesday afternoon at the man’s home, in the 900 block of South 28th Street.

ATF agents arrested the 38-year-old man, who was still in the county jail this afternoon, police said.

The federal affidavit indicates there was probable cause to arrest the man for receiving ammunition while he was the subject of a restraining order involving a former girlfriend.

The 16-page document also reveals that the ATF’s Project Disarm Task Force has been investigating the man since mid-April, and that a mental health investigation found he was “suffering from delusions with persecutory tendencies.”

Investigators believe the man thought the global economy was on the verge of a collapse that would result in widespread violence, the affidavit says.

At one point, the man told an ATF task force agent that he wanted to project his property from “thugs from Gary and here in South Bend.”

For more on this developing story, read Friday’s South Bend Tribune.

Staff writer Joshua Stowe:
jstowe@sbtinfo.com
(574) 235-6359


So I thought it was illegal to have *guns* when you have a restraining order against you, not ammo.

Second, how many of the people here have discussed a SHTF situation on this forum or with others. Do you think that's enough for ATF to categorize you "delusional" and 5150 you?

The guy wanted to protect his property - nothing in there about any threats to anyone.

DedEye
08-31-2007, 8:53 AM
If you're a convicted felon you can't even have a single bullet. I don't see anything listed about that here. Was he ever institutionalized? I know you can't own a gun if you've been in a mental facility but do the same restrictions on ammo apply?

Rob P.
08-31-2007, 8:56 AM
The restraining order probably had something in it about not possessing firearms or ammunition. If so, then they could arrest him.

The news story sounds better if he appears to be a EOW nutter so that's the angle they emphasized. Otherwise, it's just a RO violation bust which is nada newsworthy.

simonov
08-31-2007, 9:18 AM
Investigators believe the man thought the global economy was on the verge of a collapse that would result in widespread violence, the affidavit says.

I, personally, met dozens of people like that in 1999. Most of them were pretty solid citizens otherwise.

LAK Supply
08-31-2007, 10:31 AM
I, personally, met dozens of people like that in 1999. Most of them were pretty solid citizens otherwise.

Pretty solid citizens otherwise? Why does somebody who possesses an inherent mistrust for government-manipulated action become a shady citizen in that area?

The gov't has shown that it does very little correctly..... I happen to think that a stockpile of arms/ammo/food/water/batteries/communication equipment etc is a GREAT idea. Natural disasters and riots have shown just how little the gov't will do for you when the poop hits the fan. In fact, they are more likely to work against you than for you. I think many of the people you are referring to are more logical/discerning than the average citizen who lives in blissful ignorance about the potential consequences of trusting any government in bad times.

56Chevy
08-31-2007, 10:37 AM
Pretty solid citizens otherwise? Why does somebody who possesses an inherent mistrust for government-manipulated action become a shady citizen in that area?

The gov't has shown that it does very little correctly..... I happen to think that a stockpile of arms/ammo/food/water/batteries/communication equipment etc is a GREAT idea. Natural disasters and riots have shown just how little the gov't will do for you when the poop hits the fan. In fact, they are more likely to work against you than for you. I think many of the people you are referring to are more logical/discerning than the average citizen who lives in blissful ignorance about the potential consequences of trusting any government in bad times.
The average person is clueless. "I will worry about it when the time comes" is the usual response. They probably do the same thing with money.

bwiese
08-31-2007, 10:41 AM
I, personally, met dozens of people like that in 1999. Most of them were pretty solid citizens otherwise.

Why 1999? Things were very good then.

Paratus et Vigilans
08-31-2007, 11:02 AM
Why 1999? Things were very good then.

I think he's referring to the Y2K total breakdown of society scare.

bwiese
08-31-2007, 11:05 AM
I think he's referring to the Y2K total breakdown of society scare.

Ah, more black helicopter nutjobs.

Sure we coulda had a few glitches and slowdowns for a week or two. Might not have been able to e-pay your Visa bill or whatever and maybe your driver's license would have expired a century before, etc.

Civilization wouldn't turn to ruins. More gov't computers (weird old hardware + software) woulda been sensitive to this than other computers/software.

AKman
08-31-2007, 11:13 AM
I always read about these nutjobs in the paper with their arsenal of 10 guns and a a few hundred rounds of ammo.

Piper
08-31-2007, 11:26 AM
I guess the second amendment is the product of nutjobs then. Everyone calls it the doomsday clause of the Constitution.

bwiese
08-31-2007, 11:28 AM
...arsenal of 10 guns and a a few hundred rounds of ammo.


10 guns and a few hundred rounds of ammo is an 'arsenal'?

You, sir, have very low standards ;)

Glock22Fan
08-31-2007, 11:36 AM
My then (Federal) bosses made us spend an enormous amount of time proving that things wouldn't go wrong with our several hundred computers (how can you prove a negative?)

They even made us spend hundreds of hours retesting things like the latest version of Excel, even though Microsoft had already guaranteed it.

1st of Jan, they had the whole crew in at work, just in case. Total anticlimax, as I had predicted months before.

Just for the record, even the software I wrote back in the sixties and seventies was totally Y2K compatible (Julian dates are wonderful).

And I don't think that it is unthinkable that we could have a breakdown in law and order. Think Katrina. Think Watts. On the other hand, I don't lose too much sleep over it happening tomorrow.

JawBone
08-31-2007, 11:54 AM
Here's today's update - Yesterday's story concerned me - this more complete story makes the arrest legit IMO.

Although, I still have issue with the fact that there were no explosives found in the home and the writer acts as though preparing for SHTF is somehow criminal in and of itself.

Raid nets almost 80,000 rounds of ammunition
River Park man still being held in St. Joseph County jail.
(http://www.southbendtribune.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2007708310318)

TOM MOOR
Tribune Staff Writer

SOUTH BEND -- A man who reportedly was stockpiling thousands of rounds of ammunition in his small, two-story River Park home "believed that the world economy was going to crash and society would become violent," according to authorities.

Federal officers, searching for ammunition, removed 79,010 rounds of it from the man's South 28th Street home Wednesday afternoon, Donald Schmidt, an assistant U.S. attorney, said Thursday in a voice mail.

A federal affidavit unsealed indicates that Wednesday's search and arrest came after a months-long investigation into 38-year-old Kevin W. Rieder, a man who authorities believe is delusional and has long been stockpiling ammunition and supplies.


South Bend police and agents from the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives served a federal search warrant about 2:30 p.m. Wednesday at the man's home on South 28th Street, just south of Mishawaka Avenue on the city's east side.

Authorities blocked off several streets around his neighborhood for about six hours, as dozens of neighbors crowded around to catch a glimpse of the unusual event. The South Bend Fire Department's Hazardous Materials Response Team also responded.

ATF agents arrested Rieder, who was still in the St. Joseph County Jail Thursday afternoon, police said. Rieder made an appearance in court Thursday for an unlawful transport of firearms, WSBT-TV reported. He is due back in court Tuesday.

A call to Schmidt to receive more details about the case was not returned by press deadline.

The federal affidavit indicates there was probable cause to arrest the man for receiving ammunition while he was the subject of a restraining order involving a former girlfriend.

The 16-page document also reveals that the ATF's Project Disarm Task Force has been investigating the man since mid-April, and that a mental health investigation found he was "suffering from delusions with persecutory tendencies," which led him to spend three days in Madison Center.

Several run-ins

Federal officers were first called to the home back in April after receiving a tip that Rieder was "stock piling large quantities of fuel and fertilizer." The caller was worried the material could be used to make explosive devices.

During a search of the home two days later on April 19, officers found "large quantities" of ammunition, as well as a handful of radio, car parts, batteries, plastic sheeting and flashlights, according to the affidavit. Inside Rieder's garage, officers found "several" 25-gallon drums filled with gasoline.

Rieder reportedly told officers the ammunition would be necessary to protect the items he was storing, as well as the "people I care about."

Rieder also told officers he was preparing for when the economy crashed and that he was protecting his property from the "thugs of Gary and here in South Bend."

On Aug. 10, federal officers received reports from Michigan State Police that Rieder purchased a large quantity of ammunition from the Rural King. An employee of the store told police Rieder usually bought 12-gauge, 20-gauge and .22-caliber ammunition.

Most of the ammunition was being bought from Menards and Rural King, officials say.

Two days later, Rieder reportedly told an employee of the store while buying the ammunition "the next great depression is coming." The employee said he helped Rieder load the supplies into a full-sized white pickup truck, owned by Michiana Movers Inc., the company Rieder owns.

Rieder reportedly told the employee he owned an AK-47.

A history of violence?

Rieder had been arrested on May 5, July 31 and Aug. 6 for violating the protective order prohibiting him from contact with his former girlfriend.

On Aug. 9, Rieder was asked to leave the lobby of the South Bend Police Department after become irate. He said to a civilian at the station, "You'll get yours," according to the affidavit.

A man filed a police report in Mishawaka against Rieder on Aug. 20, claiming Rieder shot out his car windows. It is unclear if charges were filed against Rieder.

The man whose windows were shot is reportedly dating Rieder's ex-girlfriend. The man told police Rieder had been harassing him and his father since Rieder found out he was dating the woman, the documents show.

Sometime in July, after "stocking up" on 50-pound bags of rice at Pampered Paws, Rieder reportedly yelled at the father, who owns the store: "You better get life insurance on your son. I'm a self-made millionaire and I'm going to have it done, and he's going to die."

Two people interviewed by officers who knew Rieder well said the man smoked marijuana. His ex-girlfriend said he had been "smoking crack cocaine since he was 15 years old," according to the documents.

Staff writer Joshua Stowe contributed to this report.

Staff writer Tom Moor:
tmoor@sbtinfo.com
(574) 235-6187

simonov
08-31-2007, 12:00 PM
I think many of the people you are referring to are more logical/discerning than the average citizen who lives in blissful ignorance about the potential consequences of trusting any government in bad times.

Maybe, but they all sure looked pretty silly by the end of the day on 1 January 2000.

Some of you guys who worked in gun stores in late 1999 might also know what I'm talking about. I have heard stories . . .

JawBone
08-31-2007, 12:03 PM
Maybe, but they all sure looked pretty silly by the end of the day on 1 January 2000.

One word: Katrina

tiki
08-31-2007, 12:11 PM
I happen to think that a stockpile of arms/ammo/food/water/batteries/communication equipment etc is a GREAT idea. Natural disasters and riots have shown just how little the gov't will do for you when the poop hits the fan. In fact, they are more likely to work against you than for you. I think many of the people you are referring to are more logical/discerning than the average citizen who lives in blissful ignorance about the potential consequences of trusting any government in bad times.

Exactly. How many people fell into ths category before Y2K?

simonov
08-31-2007, 12:12 PM
I always read about these nutjobs in the paper with their arsenal of 10 guns and a a few hundred rounds of ammo.

There oughta be a law! Somebody think of the children!

bulgron
08-31-2007, 12:25 PM
That guy had nearly 80,000 rounds in his apartment? I thought there was a limit to how much ammunition can be stored all at once, and that that limit was set by the fire marshall? Anyone know, ballpark, what the usual limit is?

I just ordered 2,000 rounds of .45 ACP (worried about the forecast price increases), so hopefully my fire marshall isn't getting ready to come kick my butt. :D

Actually, I worry more about the UPS guy who has to deliver it. Hopefully he isn't anti-gun. More importantly, hopefully he doesn't object to lifting all that weight. :D :D

simonov
08-31-2007, 12:34 PM
That guy had nearly 80,000 rounds in his apartment? I thought there was a limit to how much ammunition can be stored all at once, and that that limit was set by the fire marshall? Anyone know, ballpark, what the usual limit is?

Never heard of a limit on smokeless ammunition, but many municipalities have concerns about storing large quantities of black powder.

I, personally, possess ridiculous numbers of firearms and tens of thousands of rounds of ammunition. Because I can.

Glock22Fan
08-31-2007, 2:56 PM
I wouldn't want anyone storing several 25 gallon containers of gasoline near my house. It's not totally stated, but there's enough in the article to suggest he was in a residential area.

AKman
08-31-2007, 3:14 PM
10 guns and a few hundred rounds of ammo is an 'arsenal'?

You, sir, have very low standards ;)

That was a joke. I had 1k of 5.56 and 1k of .308 delivered just yesterday (hopefully gone by the end of the weekend). I also have two gun safes that are jammed full of toys. Add in the .22, .357, .44, .454, .480, 30.06, 5.58mm, 9mm, 7.62x39, 7.62x54, 12g, and whatever else I'm forgetting, I have a slightly more than 10 guns and 300 rounds.

However, when I read of some large bust in the newspaper, the amounts are typically a fraction of what I own.

ivanimal
08-31-2007, 3:44 PM
Hmmm sounds familiar............is everyone accounted for?:D

762cavalier
08-31-2007, 4:32 PM
suffering from delusions with persecutory tendencies,

Are they really delusions if the ATF and the Cops come kick down your door and take you away?

milsurpshooter
09-01-2007, 1:32 AM
well anyone who kicks in my front door can have all the ammo thier chest cavity can carry.

dixieD
09-01-2007, 7:21 AM
Wow! What is the ATF's Project Disarm Task Force ?:eek:

kap
09-01-2007, 10:21 AM
http://www.keepingourcommunitiessafe.us/atftaskforce.htm

Law enforcement cooperation is working well in St. Joseph County and Elkhart City. Since inception in April 2004, officers assigned to the Project Disarm Task Force, which is led by the ATF, have charged more than 31 individuals who have collectively been is possession of over 50 illegal weapons. In September alone, 13 indictments, involving firearms, were returned by the grand jury in South Bend. Six of the defendants were part of an alleged straw purchase ring. The task force, which consists of officers from the South Bend Police Department, St. Joseph County Police Department, Elkhart City Police Department and ATF concentrates specifically on crimes involving firearms violence. Other than taking guns off the street, the task force appears to be affecting the number of homicides occurring throughout the City of South Bend. As of mid-December of this year there have only been ten homicides in South Bend compared to seventeen in 2003. The law enforcement efforts also have gathered information helpful in solving three homicides and led to the capture of a fugitive wanted on a murder charge in Chicago.

The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) established a Regional Firearms Enforcement Task Force in the South Bend/Elkhart City/St. Joseph County area. The Task Force, named “Project Disarm”, has officers assigned from South Bend, Elkhart City, and St. Joseph County police departments who are deputized as Special Deputy U.S. Marshals in order to enforce federal gun laws. Representatives from the Indiana State Police, U.S. Marshal’s Service, St. Joseph County Prosecutor's and the U.S. Attorney’s Office will serve as members of the “Project Disarm” Task Force. The ATF has committed three agents to the task force. One of the Special Agents assigned will be the Task Force Supervisor. The “Project Disarm” Task Force kickoff took place with a press conference on April 15, 2004 at the South Bend Century Center. The focus of “Project Disarm” is to reduce firearms related violence through aggressive and cooperative law enforcement in the South Bend/Elkhart City/St. Joseph County area.

In fiscal year 2003, the South Bend Police Department was awarded a $30,000 through the District’s Project Safe Neighborhoods grant that will be used for the “Project Disarm” Task Force. During fiscal year 2004, the South Bend Police Department will also be awarded approximately $50,000 through the PSN grant. The grant will pay for the lease of office space, the purchase of office supplies along with officer training, computers and other related equipment.

The “Project Disarm” Task Force is an excellent tool that area law enforcement agencies to utilize to help detect, deter and reduce gun violence in the South Bend/Elkhart City/St. Joseph County area.

Mssr. Eleganté
09-01-2007, 5:51 PM
Federal officers, searching for ammunition, removed 79,010 rounds of it from the man's South 28th Street home...

...Most of the ammunition was being bought from Menards and Rural King, officials say.

What!?!

He paid retail for 79,000 rounds of ammunition?

That's proof right there that the guy is crazy.

Boomer1961
09-01-2007, 6:31 PM
Are they really delusions if the ATF and the Cops come kick down your door and take you away?

I agree, nothing delusional about this guy as his prophecy of doom came true.

Instead of having jack booted thugs come to this fellow house and hauling away his possessions to justify their LE program that gets them a cush job with Patriotic Act/Homeland Defense budget authorities they should just sent a letter to the fellow and asked him to call the police station and interview him in a non-threatening environment.

It would be nice if the liberal for massive profit media would not slant the reports with ugly adjectives to make the story juicy. Instead they should do real news and studies to determine if the rights lost, the injuries, lost property, lives lost, rights abused, by overzealous LE trying to justify huge budgets with the newest fanciest cars they get to use to drive to and from work, fancy radio/scanners/spy stuff that ends up being used against their ex-wives to spy on them, cell phones they take home for personal use, laptops they also take home for personal use, training junkets to Las Vegas (remember the two LE caught recently at a Las Vegas Bordello this past summer, and all they had to do was leave the county to go to a Bordello friendly county for it to be legal) justifies trying to stop a couple 2 or 3 wacko killers per year.

The change in LE in this country to being the Jack Booted thugs as once described by a famous politician, is a shame. It actually creates that vicious cycle of violence as not to many law abiding folks would pull a gun on Andy Griffin when he went to their house to inquire about a situation, but I can see the citizenry in this country loosing trust in LE, especially after being a victim of such tactics. It also makes it near impossible to prove your innocent of anything as LE would not have put on dress up with there fancy outfits and helmets and all those guns and barking dogs and TV news helicopters that get to the scene before LE does (ya know for the photo op for the LE going on the career ladder path who does not miss an opportunity to put something famous on his yearly performance review) unless they were certain you were guilty of something like having an arsenal of ammunition so you get ostracized by the community and locked up for a long time as a result.

This sort of thing only promotes gun fights, and does not discourage them. If you go looking for trouble you will find it.:eek:

Give me Andy Griffin any day, these storm troopers are nothing more than Barney Fife who was not only given bullets for his gun but a fancy uniform, a helmet with cool looking goggles, and an excuse to rough somebody up and maybe an opportunity to shoot some one.:cool: