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AJAX22
08-30-2007, 11:54 AM
I was detained at school today on suspicion of carying a concealed weapon.

Today has been an odd day for me, I was sitting in my physics class at Santa Monica College trying to remember calculus from five years ago when a very polite officer came into the class and asked me if my name was (insert my name here) and if I could please come outside with him.

I hurried after him immediately worrying that something had happened to my wife or my grand parents, or father or close friends who may have me as an emergency contact.

Outside there were about five uniformed officers arranged in a semi circle with their hands close to their weapons, which I thought was odd for an emergency notification.

The officer who had come in for me introduced himself and explained to me that someone had observed me on an internet chat board (here at calguns) while I was sitting in a school computer lab, and apparently I was posting messages on how to bypass laws and illegally obtain firearms and hide them and I was making some kind of threat against the student body, and apparently somehow this translated to me being a threat to the school and under suspicion of carrying a gun.

I explained that I hadnít posted any such thing, and while I might have explained to someone what they need to legally purchase a pistol in CA I have never advocated breaking the law in any way shape or form. (I actually posted about the utility bill requirement a while ago, but under a little bit of stress I couldnít recall if it was the day before or a few days prior, it just seemed like the only post that could even remotely be misconstrued)

They then searched my person with my consent (I didnít want the officers to feel ill at ease while I was standing there, and as I understand it an officer safety search is completely constitutional and I donít have a problem with them feeling more comfortable around me)

They explained that after the VT and columbine things people were at a higher state of paranoia and they were obligated to follow up on any credible report, and explained to me that they needed to search my backpack to make sure that I didnít have any weapons in it.

I replied that I did not consent to a search and did so on the grounds of privacy and a strong belief in the fourth amendment, I offered to show them all the internet posts that I had made so that they could judge for themselves whether or not this was a credible report.

They explained to me that based on my statements and the report they had from the female individual they had plenty of probable cause for searching my bag, but my consent would considerably speed up the process.

I declined further and they had the sergeant and chief of police (I believe) who were nice individuals and very courteous and professional come and talk with me while they called in for a telephonic warrant. It took them a considerable amount of time (20-30 min) and I began to inquire how long I had to stand out there and at what point it became unlawful detainment. They stated that since I was a suspect under investigation being detained that I could not go back into the classroom, nor could I take my things and leave campus.

I then called my wife and asked her to call T.M. and have them give me a call (I didnít have the phone number on me for some reasonÖ It might have been in my wallet but my wallet was being held onto by one of the officers.

Speaking of my wallet, the officers took a special interest in it, I have an old police wallet that has space for a badge, I donít carry a badge, Iíve never carried a badge, Iím not a policeman wannabe or mall ninja, I just appreciate high quality leatherwork and when my old JC penny wallet wore out, I purchased a badge wallet that was on sale at the local shooting range/police supply outlet. It is a nice lattago leather that is well stitched and has held up so well for the last seven years that I donít think Iíll ever need another one.

I donít really understand why it was of such interest to them, but it was, and I guess they have to deal with a lot of wannabe cops impersonating an officer.

They obtained a warrant, searched my bag, determined that unless I was planning on throwing my physics notes at someone (which reminds me I left a notebook on the desk in classÖ. Iíll have to get it tomorrow) I had nothing that was illegal in my bag.

They apologized to me for the inconvenience, chatted about competitive shooting and ca law a bit and sent me on my way.

I was a bit shaken and class was almost over so I left to go get a cold soda and go home (I only have one class on Thursdays)

My wife was really distraught over this, and has all but forbidden me from discussing guns in public or chatting on calguns while at school. I donít blame her, itís a hard phone call to get, ďhey babe, Iím being detained on suspicion of carrying a concealed weapon please contact T.M. for meĒ

Chuck called me on my cell phone shortly afterwards and I explained to him what had happened, and why I took the pre-emptive step of contacting him. (I didnít feel that some unsubstantiated report constituted probable cause for violating my privacy or treating me like a criminal, and what if a single round of ammo was lodged in my backpack somewhere from a range trip three years ago? Its happened before (I only found out when I had to get on an airplane and they x-rayed my bag), or if I had an exacto knife from one of the art classes that I had forgotten about and had wound up in with my pensÖ

I just feel uncomfortable allowing people to search through my possessions, and I didnít want to allow for an accidental empty brass casing or something to cause me to get expelled from a school that Iíve worked very hard at (3.87 GPA, Iíll be graduating with two AAís this quarter and transferring to a new school next year)

I also felt a little embarrassed that my bookmark for my recreational reading is one a friend made me that features the land-o-lakes girl and has a little flap that you lift to make her show her breastsÖ I donít mind you guys knowing about it, (hey its just guy bawdy talk) but pulling it out at school and discussing it would be inappropriate, also in our PC world I didnít want to get kicked out of school for having something like that. (I hadnít thought about it being inappropriate until they asked to search, It wont be accompanying me to school in the future)

I didnít want to make the officers jobs harder by not granting consent for the search, I just value my rights and I donít want doodles of guns or notes from my polysci class to ruin the education that Iím working so *&^%# hard to get. Part of me also distrusted the fact that they actually had P.C. for a search, it just seemed that if they had it, they would have gone ahead and gotten a warrant for it prior to pulling me out of class. I guess schools are a different sort of environment, the warrant was obviously granted via the telephone.

C.M. is going to be sending me a few cards and a magnet, he was very understanding and having access to him incase of something like this was a huge relief. Apparently (according to my wife) mentioning calguns brought immediate recognition and action. It actually brings a tear to my eye thinking that you guys are out there and organized and Iím not just one man that has to stand alone (ok itís a bit melodramatic). Seriously, just the though of it meant more than you can know.

Iím not sure who reported me as a dangerous guy, (maybe it was the local news? I sent a commentary letter to them yesterday from a school computer discussing the RKBA) I donít really care who did it, though its saddening that this is what our society has come to, reporting Ďsuspicious activityí instead of just talking to the Ďsuspiciousí guy about whatís going on first.

I just wanted to let you guys know about it, It feels good to get it out so Iím not just thinking about it. (I was a little shaken up buy the whole thing, Iím a big advocate of following the rules to the exact letter of the law, and to be accused of being a criminal actually hurt)

To T.M. thanks for being there,

To the officers (who Iím sure are reading this, I encouraged them to come and find out what the site was all about) Thanks for being professional and courteous about the incident, Iím sorry for making your jobs harder.

To the rest of you guys, be careful where you look at Calguns, people are snoopers and even if you are a clean cut professional looking upstanding individual with no prior history of anything, you too can be a suspect based on the word of someone who disagrees with you politically, or misreads an email you write to the newspaper.

****EDIT*****

Here is a copy of the police report, I'm adding it here so its easy to find in the thread


http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff250/ratduster777/PoliceReportPrivacyEdit.jpg
http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff250/ratduster777/PoliceReportSecurityEdit.jpg

MrTuffPaws
08-30-2007, 12:05 PM
Well holy ****. I am glad that you made them get a warrant. Funny, they claimed that they had probable cause, but then phoned in for a warrant. Me thinks someone has had their evidence tossed before.

Beatone
08-30-2007, 12:09 PM
:eek: This board gets a lot of attention from all branches of law enforcement. :eek:

WolfMansDad
08-30-2007, 12:12 PM
Good go on refusing to consent to a search. You did the right thing, including being polite when you refused.

Your calguns posting was probably the excuse to harass you, not the reason. You might want to see if you can find out who called the cops, and see if there might be any other reason they would want to rattle or discredit you. Don't do it to take revenge. It's just good to know what's going on around you and who's doing what.

RudyN
08-30-2007, 12:13 PM
The bit about probable cause was just to see if you would make them go and get a warrant instead of giving a consent to search. There are people out there that if you have an interest in guns will consider you a criminal in the making just for that reason alone.

DedEye
08-30-2007, 12:15 PM
Sounds like you handled yourself well, good job.

Librarian
08-30-2007, 12:16 PM
I think you did OK. Nasty surprise.

So, since you and the officers seem to be on polite speaking terms, do you suppose you might ask them to revise their idea of 'credible'? Investigation of the accusations made, investigation of the person who makes the accusations would surely contribute to a more accurate evaluation of the situation.

chickenfried
08-30-2007, 12:18 PM
Wow glad everything turned out okay. The part of your story that sucks is thinking about the person that reported you. They either knowingly wasted the cop's time or really believe you're some kind of threat because you post on a gun board. I would feel better if the cops were able to go back to that person and make them feel as uncomfortable as you felt.

virulosity
08-30-2007, 12:20 PM
Interesting, I can't count how many times I have browsed this website at school. Hell, people looking over my shoulder have even asked for the URL so they can go check it out.

StukaJr
08-30-2007, 12:22 PM
Your actions were correct and sounds like you stood for your rights while still complying with Police to a reasonable degree.

I'd walk around campus in extra cheery mood - make the snitch feel extra shifty when they see you :) (you could probably spot them that way).

chico.cm
08-30-2007, 12:24 PM
Kudos to you AJAX22, for having presence of mind and calling the atty.
I am happy for you that it didn't escalate.

Cheers to you Sir!

mecam
08-30-2007, 12:30 PM
The police will lie to you and say anything for you to give up your rights. You did good.... Yeah, I never look at gun sites or gun forums on a public place.

bwiese
08-30-2007, 12:35 PM
This sh*t has to stop.

AJAX22, I don't recally any of your posts being even remotely controversial, incorrect, etc. Ordinary discussion about ordinary guys about legal gun matters in CA.

You handled yourself well. I realize you do have a life and wanted this to go away as quickly as possible, but I would not have consented to the personal search. If they wanna search you they will, let them do it under your protest. It is not out of the realm of reality for LA cops 'plant' things and

Frankly it sounds like Calguns is being targeted; I'm wondering if the 'student looking over your shoulder' is actually a pretext.

However, if that is true, it would be good to find out who, and I believe you may have an actionable matter against that individual. While the recovery may be minimal it'd be nice to see a few of these folks hanging in the wind with a judgment against them.

glockman19
08-30-2007, 12:43 PM
AJAX22,

I don't recally any of your posts being even remotely controversial,I am glad that you made them get a warrant. Funny, they claimed that they had probable cause, but then phoned in for a warrant. Me thinks someone has had their evidence tossed before.Good go on refusing to consent to a search. You did the right thing, including being polite when you refused.

All I can add is you handled it very well.

Congrats.

I'd start wearing t-shirts from: Glock, Kimber, Colt, S&W or a Stag with the evil looking rifles on them.

lazuris
08-30-2007, 12:47 PM
I find it unfortunate that those people who choose to participate endulging in their legal rights are singled out as dangerous to the community.

pnkssbtz
08-30-2007, 12:55 PM
Don't they have to present a warrant to you?

How do you get a warrant "over the phone"?

And on a warrant don't they have to list their cause for the warrant?



Smells like bull**** to me. At least those cops were polite, unlike the crap that they pulled on BWO.

GUN FREAK
08-30-2007, 12:59 PM
Wow!

Kestryll
08-30-2007, 1:00 PM
AJAX22, I don't recally any of your posts being even remotely controversial, incorrect, etc. Ordinary discussion about ordinary guys about legal gun matters in CA.
I was thinking the same thing as I read this, there is NO basis for that kind of claim unless they are trying to say that discussing OLLs is the equivilent of discussing illegal weapons

You handled yourself well.
Agreed, well done and major kudos fo having the courage to make you stand.



Frankly it sounds like Calguns is being targeted; I'm wondering if the 'student looking over your shoulder' is actually a pretext.
There has seemed to be an increase in the 'I was...' threads here. I wonder if there is some extra attention being paid when the name 'Calguns' comes up. "Calguns? Run that one all the way to the line.


However, if that is true, it would be good to find out who, and I believe you may have an actionable matter against that individual. While the recovery may be minimal it'd be nice to see a few of these folks hanging in the wind with a judgment against them.

I would love to see one of these 'I saw him say this and it scared me' twits sued or even charged if it could be proven that the claims were false like this one.

This is just a reminder, keep on your toes, keep your posts clean and keep contact info close. I have C. Michel, C. Tutanich, Ben, Bill and Ivan all on my cell phone ready to go (gotta get Gene's punched in too) and a text file of 'Who to call' back at home.



Another thing this shows is that we are making a difference, this stuff wouldn't happen if we were just spinning our wheels.

Now is not the time to slow down or back off.
Now is the time to keep pressing forward. Make those calls, end those emails, faxes and letters.
Don't let stuff like this scare you, let it ENERGIZE you!

Again, well done AJAX!!

Kestryll
08-30-2007, 1:02 PM
I'd start wearing t-shirts from: Glock, Kimber, Colt, S&W or a Stag with the evil looking rifles on them.

Get some Calguns shirts!!!
http://gunsr4.us/


:D :43: :D

AJAX22
08-30-2007, 1:03 PM
Thanks Bill,

Initially I didn't understand how far the officers were going to pursue this, I've only had one adverse interaction with law enforcement and it was just an attitude thing from one particular officer years ago in my home town.

I just thought that it would go away once I explained myself and my position clearly, I had no idea that they believed they had enough for probable cause for a search, and I did not object to a search of my person because I didn't want the officers to be jumpy (I would prefer not to get shot over pulling out a cell phone or other similar action)

I'm not as up on my tort law as I should be, (and I have limited resources to pursue any kind of legal action that couldn't be funded by the recovery)

and while the whole incident was a bit emotionally distressing, I'm not certain that the ill will which might be incurred on campus would be worth pursuing a civil matter.

I have a number of very VERY liberal teachers this semester and I desperately need good grades to get into the colleges that I am trying to attend

In a class with a subjective grading system, I fear that I if I did make a civil issue out of this and it became public knowledge I could then be singled out and have my grade lowered as a result.

I have had my grade subjectivly lowered once before, I earned a 92.5% in a class and the teacher gave me a B because he didnt like my attitude or what I had to say in my final essay. I can only imagine what my cinema 9 teacher would say if she found out I was pro 2A. She has us do yoga in class instead of drinking coffee.....

The police who were involved were all campus officers so I have no reason to believe that they had a larger anti calgun agenda. One did mention in passing that he was familiar with the site, but it was not in any kind of hostile manner.

A few things struck me as odd during the incident, they mentioned that the report had come in yesterday and that they had shown up to my class only to find out that I was not attending it (I only have one class which I attended thursday... I never skip class)

They had mentioned that I was talking about burying guns and obtaining guns illegally... and while I have in the past discussed burying firearms, (legally owned ones on private property in a secure manner) there is nothing illegal about doing it, and I've NEVER advocated any sort of illegal activity.

I feel that my RKBA is just to important.

When speaking to the officers I did incorrectly cite the posts that I had made yesterday, I informed the officer that I had discussed a remington targetmaster, which I later discovered was not correct, that was substantially prior, as well as the post I made with regard to the utility bill requirements for handgun purchase.

If they had actually visited the site and seen my postings, its possible that my misquoting myself (while under pressure) was what they were refering to as probable cause... I just am not familiar enough with that area of law.

I did not knowingly make an incorrect statement to the officers, but that particular information, I later found out to be in error as to the date of posting.

I can't imagine what other investigation they could be running on me, I lead a clean life and I really do play by the rules.

While the story that the officers gave me was slightly convoluted with regard to specifics, I really don't think there is any more to it than a simple suspicion of concealed carry investigation.

If for some reason they are investigating me they will be extremely disappointed, I Really just don't do anything illegal.

vorpar
08-30-2007, 1:05 PM
Classy, using their hatred of the 2nd amendment to destroy our 1st amendment rights.

I hate to sound like CAIR, but I'd want to look into filing a complaint about a false police report. If anyone, for any reason, can have anyone else detained by the LEOs on a whim under false pretenses, that's something that I think we should fight against.

aplinker
08-30-2007, 1:42 PM
AJAX,

I'm in shock, bro. Angry, too. I know you don't do anything shady -- what's the point?! If we didn't care about laws, WHY WOULD WE BE ON CALGUNS?! It's because we want to follow the law that we're here.

If anything ever happens I'd support you any way I could.

It makes me want to second guess how I deal with people around me WRT guns. I love talking guns and taking people to Angeles, but the idea of getting hassled like this disturbs me. Their "probable cause" seems razon thin -- did they check out your posts? "Someone might have seen that you might have done something bad on the internet."

I'm upset.

eta34
08-30-2007, 1:44 PM
As a LEO, I have a question and a few comments. First, did they actually obtain a warrant? Did they give you a copy of the facesheet as required? I would like to read their probable cause statement. Unfortunately, due to the overblown hype around Virginia Tech, coupled with very liberal CA judges, the mere mentioning of firearms on a school campus is enough PC for some judges to issue a warrant. Based on my review of your posts, I didn't see anything that rose to that level...no threats, no admissions that you are carrying a firearm illegally on campus, nothing like that. I am truly sorry.

Second, someone asked about a telephonic warrant. Yes, they exist. Basically, you have to read your probable cause to the judge and swear an oath over the phone. No different that a traditional pen and paper warrant.

Finally, I think you did the right thing. Your other choice, knowing that you had nothing illegal, was to consent to a search. Would that have sped up the process, gotten you back to class sooner, saved a bit of publicity around campus? Absolutely. However, nobody should make you feel guilty about exercising your 4th Amendment right.

Good job.

MudCamper
08-30-2007, 1:51 PM
Scary. And infuriating. You did good! Glad you made them get a warrent. We all need to be that brave.

rohanreed
08-30-2007, 2:01 PM
bwiese, regarding the comment on LA cops, Santa Monica has it's own PD, which may not be any 'better' than LAPD, but I wouldn't guess many of the LAPD stereotypes to apply, or at least not to the same degree. Perhaps I'm just being naive. The only interaction I've had with SMPD is with the parking enforcement devision... :mad:

Ajax, I didn't know SMC had it's own campus police, just though it was serviced by SMPD. Either way, good job handling the situation. Treat yourself to some Fosters Freeze next time you're over there!

pnkssbtz
08-30-2007, 2:10 PM
Here is a question,

Would the police act in the same manner in pursuing the issue to the point of getting a phoned warrant and pulling an individual in the middle of class if the issue was not firearms and say Drug Manufacturing?


If a random person "claimed" to have seen someone else viewing said contraband on their computer and had "claimed" to have read posts of theirs on a message board where they claim to have been perpetrating such acts, would the police act in such a fashion?


How can an uncorroborated 3rd party witness be the sole justification for probable cause?

That is ludicrous.


If this issue involved anything but firearms there is no way that 'judge' that was on the 'phone' would of granted a warrant.

LAK Supply
08-30-2007, 2:10 PM
Sorry to hear about your ordeal Ajax....! California has gone entirely too far in their quest for Utopia. Many of the idiots that run around CA colleges are good socialists that are deathly afraid of those evil guns..... mainly due to the brainwashing they receive from their "professors" and the media. I think you should attempt to find a way to locate the individual that "reported" you and pursue legal action.

Fjold
08-30-2007, 2:12 PM
Wow! I think that you handled yourself extremely well. Can you request a copy of the warrant and the affidavit?

hoffmang
08-30-2007, 2:13 PM
Very well handled Ajax. I do think you should follow up on getting the PC statement and supporting documents for the search warrant. I'm guessing that your accuser and the nature of the accusation had to be used to obtain the warrant - if obtained.

All this should be doable with phone calls and letters via certified mail.

-Gene

AJAX22
08-30-2007, 2:21 PM
I was never given a copy of the facesheet, they simply were on the phone for a while, then went into the classroom and exited with my backpack.

I assume they had a warrant because they went from being extremely cautious about going near my backpack without permission to sitting it on the ground and removing its contents in front of me. I never gave consent, they came back and searched and they told me they had a warrant, everything seemed on the up and up and since it was telephonic and issued while standing in a hallway outside of LS153 I didn't think anything of the lack of paperwork.

To their credit they only looked for weapons, they didn't read through my notes or give close scrutiny to any of my papers or documents, it was a straightforward search. (which is good, if they had delved deeper they might have been bored to tears with my economics notes and last semesters french grammar lessons)

They also didn't ask me about the magnesium firestarter block that I keep in my pack as an emergency item.

eta34, there's nothing for you to be sorry about, departmental policy is what it is and I don't fault officers for doing their job, they don't know who I am and I don't know what crazy story they were told by some vapid anti-gun woman, perhaps next time they will do a bit more research to validate the report prior to detaining a suspect... especially if detainment occurs 24 hours after the report was filed.

I've always advocated standing up for your 4A rights, I have great respect for our founding fathers and the constitution.

I know I was doing nothing illegal, but to me consenting to a search of my belongingsis not something I believe is ever the appropriate course of action. (my person Is different, I don't want to create undue tension and the officers were clearly on edge at first)

The law is so complex, there is really no way to be certain that you are not breaking it unknowingly. what if my doodles of guns that I want to build are considered to be a terrorist threat or inappropriate material to have at school? I fear being arrested someday for not following a law that I didn't know about . Its a serious issue.

Paranoia? Maybe, but if you told me that I'd get detained and searched today because of reading up on the current developments in firearms law I probably would have laughed and asked you how in the heck that was PC for anything.

there are just too many laws for anyone to stay current (and forget about staying up to date with stare decisis)

peepshowal
08-30-2007, 2:24 PM
AJAX22
Thanks for posting this and letting us know that these sorts of overreactions are happening. I've learned a lot reading Calguns and find it a shame that someone could look at this site and feel the police must be informed.
Glad it worked out for you as well as it did.

lawnrevenge
08-30-2007, 2:39 PM
Look at gun websites in public. Don't let the sheep start to herd you! IF they don't like it, tough. I understand the whole school thing, and it's a personal choice to play it safe. But I won't be censored by bliss ninnies that cry and wet themselves when something doesn't fit their world view. I discuss target shooting and hunting with people in public, even on campus. I love hearing people make blanket comments of ignorance about guns and hunting and then nicely educating them. Even if they won't listen often the guy next to him will. The cops are reacting to a "threat" and won't blow it off post Virginia Tech because they would be blamed/sued if suspicious person did do something and they did nothing. Before I get back to school I will be sure to clean out my car real good. At Cal Poly Pomona right after VT last spring the campus police searched a few people's cars, including a friend with an NRA sticker on his bumper. So you in the end have two choices.
1. Avoid making bliss ninnies uncomfortable because of what you do in public. (self censorship)
2. Obey the law and not give a damn what others think. If you are staying within the law you will be inconvenienced but you will be free.

AKman
08-30-2007, 2:46 PM
I can't really fault the police in this case. They have to act on what little information they have and fear being second-guessed and/or sued if they fail to act. Its easy to prevent everything from Pearl Harbor to 9/11 to the VA Tech shootings when you look at the available information after the incident.

Unfortunately, there are a lot of people out there that are afraid of guns and don't have a clue about the 2nd Amendment. If they were looking over AJAX22's shoulder, they probably misread something, and being on a gun website, probably freaked out. This is giving them the benefit of the doubt since it could have been someone that just plain hates guns. Or, maybe someone that AJAX22 pissed off in some manner (you took their favorite parking place?).

At least the police were nice and didn't attempt a body cavity search or drag your *** off to jail. This is the PRK and the fear of guns is not going away anytime soon.

chickenfried
08-30-2007, 3:23 PM
I could understand the lawyers, might add a couple to my cell phone it has space for a gazillion entries so why not. But why the other numbers??

keep contact info close. I have C. Michel, C. Tutanich, Ben, Bill and Ivan all on my cell phone ready to go (gotta get Gene's punched in too) and a text file of 'Who to call' back at home.

WokMaster1
08-30-2007, 3:35 PM
AJAX, good work & bummer it had to happen to you.

TMLLP is in Long Beach. Who do we call for help in the SF Bay area/Norcal ?

Bad Voodoo
08-30-2007, 3:35 PM
This state has really gone to hell in a handbasket when public officials can continue to intrude/infringe upon our privacy/rights, seemingly unchecked and at will. I hope you thanked them all profusely for "protecting" the students and faculty at your school based upon the I-witness statement warning of an individual reading/posting to a website. I know I sleep better at night knowing our government jackboots are pre-emptively averting more gun disasters. :rolleyes:

-voodoo

Crazed_SS
08-30-2007, 3:35 PM
Look at gun websites in public. Don't let the sheep start to herd you! IF they don't like it, tough. I understand the whole school thing, and it's a personal choice to play it safe. But I won't be censored by bliss ninnies that cry and wet themselves when something doesn't fit their world view. I discuss target shooting and hunting with people in public, even on campus. I love hearing people make blanket comments of ignorance about guns and hunting and then nicely educating them. Even if they won't listen often the guy next to him will. The cops are reacting to a "threat" and won't blow it off post Virginia Tech because they would be blamed/sued if suspicious person did do something and they did nothing. Before I get back to school I will be sure to clean out my car real good. At Cal Poly Pomona right after VT last spring the campus police searched a few people's cars, including a friend with an NRA sticker on his bumper. So you in the end have two choices.
1. Avoid making bliss ninnies uncomfortable because of what you do in public. (self censorship)
2. Obey the law and not give a damn what others think. If you are staying within the law you will be inconvenienced but you will be free.

Reading this site in public makes me a little nervous not because of the gun stuff, but because of stuff like this.. http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=67647&page=5
I know everyone has strong views of illegal immigration and all, but advocating mining the border and shooting illegals and such is just not right .. I wouldnt want someone reading a thread like that and then lumping me in with such extreme views.

EdinKali
08-30-2007, 3:37 PM
If you did this from a school computer, it could quite have possibly been a school computer systems administrator. Many companies and I would bet schools are using software that snoops on their employees as to what websites are being accessed to make sure they aren't wasting company time or accessing inappropriate content while at work.

Crazed_SS
08-30-2007, 3:37 PM
This state has really gone to hell in a handbasket when public officials can continue to intrude/infringe upon our privacy/rights, seemingly unchecked and at will. I hope you thanked them all profusely for "protecting" the students and faculty at your school based upon the I-witness statement warning of an individual reading/posting to a website. I know I sleep better at night knowing our government jackboots are pre-emptively averting more gun disasters. :rolleyes:

-voodoo

Well it is the job of the police to respond to and investigate when they get a call. I mean, that's why they're police. Would you rather the cops just sit around and collect paychecks and not respond to calls or what?

MudCamper
08-30-2007, 3:44 PM
TMLLP is in Long Beach. Who do we call for help in the SF Bay area/Norcal ?

Damn good question. I was going to ask the very same thing. Anyone have any recommendations?

Bad Voodoo
08-30-2007, 3:47 PM
Well it is the job of the police to respond to and investigate when they get a call. I mean, that's why they're police. Would you rather the cops just sit around and collect paychecks and not respond to calls or what?

No, what I'd rather they did was show overwhelming force in Section-8 type, drug and violence infested neighborhoods. What I'd rather they did was walk a beat in these and bordering neighborhoods to prevent crime from bleeding into areas where the actual working class try to survive, put food on the table, and provide for their kids so they have a future doing something other than propping up the neighborhood crack dealing gang-banger as a role model. What I'd rather they did was say "sorry, ma'am, but unless you saw this individual carrying concealed, reading and posting on an internet website is not probable cause to show up at a college classroom in force to conduct a freakin' investigation/search. What I'd rather they did was support the 2nd ammendment rights of law-abiding citizens.

Does that clear up my position for you?

-voodoo

Kestryll
08-30-2007, 3:48 PM
I could understand the lawyers, might add a couple to my cell phone it has space for a gazillion entries so why not. But why the other numbers??

keep contact info close. I have C. Michel, C. Tutanich, Ben, Bill and Ivan all on my cell phone ready to go (gotta get Gene's punched in too) and a text file of 'Who to call' back at home.


As you say, the lawyers are self explanatory, Ivan would be to let him know he has the helm here until things got worked out, Ben, Gene, and Bill would be for information and 'backup'. Time and effort has shown all three to be very capable and smart individuals and each has a field that they are better versed in then most people.
Quite frankly if I was in a bind because of a firearms related incident I'd want those three and TM-LLP all conspiring on my behalf!! Woe be it to the other guys!! :eek:

CalNRA
08-30-2007, 3:50 PM
Damn good question. I was going to ask the very same thing. Anyone have any recommendations?

DOn Kilmer, in San Jose.

I had a few conversations with him, good guy.

Crazed_SS
08-30-2007, 3:58 PM
No, what I'd rather they did was show overwhelming force in Section-8 type, drug and violence infested neighborhoods. What I'd rather they did was walk a beat in these and bordering neighborhoods to prevent crime from bleeding into areas where the actual working class try to survive, put food on the table, and provide for their kids so they have a future doing something other than propping up the neighborhood crack dealing gang-banger as a role model. What I'd rather they did was say "sorry, ma'am, but unless you saw this individual carrying concealed, reading and posting on an internet website is not probable cause to show up at a college classroom in force to conduct a freakin' investigation/search. What I'd rather they did was support the 2nd ammendment rights of law-abiding citizens.

Does that clear up my position for you?

-voodoo

OK, I dont support overbearing policing either, but I read the OPs post and I didnt really notice any Jack-Booted Thuggery being described. If the cops had run up to him, tackled him to the ground, and then proceeded to strip search him, I'd take issue, but it sounds like they were just responding to a call.. Personally I would have consented to the search of my bag so that I could get on with my day and avoid the hassle.. I got better things to do than sit around being detained by the police.

It sounded like a run of the mill police encounter. If I walk outside right now and my neighbor decides to call the police on me for whatever reason, I expect the police to show up, question me, possibly search me, and then let me go when they find out the call was bogus. It's not a big deal. If the cops ignore a call and something does happen, they're gonna be in a wolrd of **** and everyone would be jumping down their throat for not doing what their tax dollars pay for.

EDIT: The OP states that the caller said he was "making threats to the student body" .. With that information, dont you think it'd be prudent for the police to investigate? Keep in mind the police dont know if the claims are valid or not, but they must err on the side of caution and treat them as them are. It's like whenever there's a bomb threat, city blocks get shut down, buildings are evacuated, the bomb squad gets called out, etc, etc .. Similarly, in the wake of VT, you can be sure the police are gonna be all over a call if they get a call about someone threatening the school.

WokMaster1
08-30-2007, 3:59 PM
As you say, the lawyers are self explanatory, Ivan would be to let him know he has the helm here until things got worked out, Ben, Gene, and Bill would be for information and 'backup'. Time and effort has shown all three to be very capable and smart individuals and each has a field that they are better versed in then most people.
Quite frankly if I was in a bind because of a firearms related incident I'd want those three and TM-LLP all conspiring on my behalf!! Woe be it to the other guys!! :eek:


Who's Ben?:confused:

SunriseF150
08-30-2007, 3:59 PM
Sorry about your experience. Probably some Anti-gun who saw you on the here and made some **** up to get you searched. Sounds like you need to wear some gun shirts to school from now on. I sure as hell would.

mecam
08-30-2007, 4:04 PM
Sounds like you need to wear some gun shirts to school from now on.

I think some schools have policies against that and can get you suspended.

Bad Voodoo
08-30-2007, 4:07 PM
OK, I dont support overbearing policing either, but I read the OPs post and I didnt really notice any Jack-Booted Thuggery being described. If the cops had run up to him, tackled him to the ground, and then proceeded to strip search him, I'd take issue, but it sounds like they were just responding to a call.. Personally I would have consented to the search of my bag so that I could get on with my day and avoid the hassle.. I got better things to do than sit around being detained by the police.

It sounded like a run of the mill police encounter. If I walk outside right now and my neighbor decides to call the police on me for whatever reason, I expect the police to show up, question me, possibly search me, and then let me go when they find out the call was bogus. It's not a big deal. If the cops ignore a call and something does happen, they're gonna be in a wolrd of **** and everyone would be jumping down their throat for not doing what their tax dollars pay for.

I think it is a big deal. I don't consider a group of cops "investigating" this guy in his college classroom because someone "witnessed" him utilizing an internet website anything close to "run of the mill." I also don't care how "nice and polite" they were. To me, that's just window dressing. It's just ridiculous how/why this went down. People have very basic rights and shouldn't have to experience this sort of infringement. In any way, shape, or form.

-voodoo

-voodoo

Crazed_SS
08-30-2007, 4:13 PM
I think it is a big deal. I don't consider a group of cops "investigating" this guy in his college classroom because someone "witnessed" him utilizing an internet website anything close to "run of the mill." I also don't care how "nice and polite" they were. To me, that's just window dressing. It's just ridiculous how/why this went down. People have very basic rights and shouldn't have to experience this sort of infringement. In any way, shape, or form.

-voodoo

-voodoo

Go back and reread the OP's first post.
He said that the caller said he was making threats.

The officer who had come in for me introduced himself and explained to me that someone had observed me on an internet chat board (here at calguns) while I was sitting in a school computer lab, and apparently I was posting messages on how to bypass laws and illegally obtain firearms and hide them and I was making some kind of threat against the student body, and apparently somehow this translated to me being a threat to the school and under suspicion of carrying a gun.

Threats usually warrant a police response.

Now, I guess you can argue that the threat wasnt credible, but like I said, in the wake of VT, you can be sure the police and taking all threats seriously.

Satex
08-30-2007, 4:24 PM
You acted A ok, and I applaud you for standing for your constitutional rights while being professional. I believe that you should insist on obtaining the information of the complaining person and press charges for harassment and public humiliation. If the police officers refuse to provide you with the information, you should press charges against them as well. The police officers should be ashamed of their behavior. Instead of investigating the frivolous complaint to see if it has any merit, they decided to go ruin your day. This is a classic example of bad policing.

Satex
08-30-2007, 4:31 PM
I can't really fault the police in this case. They have to act on what little information they have and fear being second-guessed and/or sued if they fail to act.

Absolutely nonsense! It is the DUTY and RESPONSIBILITY of the police to INVESTIGATE every complaint properly:
1) What did you see him do?
2) What exactly did he say?
3) When did he say it?
And so on....
I bet you that if the officer that took the complaint would have done his work properly, it would not have ended as it did.

CSDGuy
08-30-2007, 4:39 PM
From the information given in the original post, it appears that the Campus Police Officers were investigating what they thought to be a potential threat to the student body. They did their jobs the way they were supposed to. My guess is that they would probably have basically "blown off" most of the complaint. What spurred them into action was probably the "threat" complaint.

What needs to be done by the College PD is to publicly dispo that response (because it WILL likely be in the college paper) as "Subject detained, all complaints unfounded".

eta34
08-30-2007, 4:42 PM
Um, how is it an example of bad policing? I wasn't there, and clearly, nobody here, including the OP, has any idea what information they were given. I am not blindly defending the police in any way; I just think we need more information before we know who is at fault.

CSDGuy
08-30-2007, 4:44 PM
Absolutely nonsense! It is the DUTY and RESPONSIBILITY of the police to INVESTIGATE every complaint properly:
1) What did you see him do?
2) What exactly did he say?
3) When did he say it?
And so on....
I bet you that if the officer that took the complaint would have done his work properly, it would not have ended as it did.

If the person reporting the complaint lies or at least relates what he/she THINKS was seen... all of those elements could have been answered to enough satisfaction of the dispatcher/whomever took the complaint to require a response.

StukaJr
08-30-2007, 4:47 PM
Go back and reread the OP's first post.
He said that the caller said he was making threats.

Threats usually warrant a police response.

Now, I guess you can argue that the threat wasnt credible, but like I said, in the wake of VT, you can be sure the police and taking all threats seriously.

I do agree, the person whom contacted the Police seems to be very specific:

"and apparently I was posting messages on how to bypass laws and illegally obtain firearms and hide them and I was making some kind of threat against the student body, and apparently somehow this translated to me being a threat to the school and under suspicion of carrying a gun."

It could have been the case of the witness just being very good at purporting the crime, unless, of course the witness was very general and mind was filling in the details...

My first reaction would have been to:

a) Go to the Computer in question
b) Investigate the Page History
c) Have the witness show me the exact posts that were made and how they determined that they were offensive
d) Call in help from MySpace squad and comb this forum
e) Giving the witness a slap on the wrist for Obstructing Justice

Even without the computer, the officer should have questioned the witness as thoroughly as they could... As you see, not having a firearm on his person does not clear AJAX of not posting threats on this web forum against other SMC students! (which we know he didn't - because we read the forum and can easily look up his posting history). All the cops know now is that AJAX is a courteous individual whom did not carry firearms on campus - they have violated his personal rights without clearing him of the actual crime he was suspected of...

"It's almost like - hey, that guy is making threats - let's frisk him"... :mad:

Patriot
08-30-2007, 4:49 PM
The officer who had come in for me introduced himself and explained to me that someone had observed me on an internet chat board (here at calguns) while I was sitting in a school computer lab, and apparently I was posting messages on how to bypass laws and illegally obtain firearms and hide them and I was making some kind of threat against the student body, and apparently somehow this translated to me being a threat to the school and under suspicion of carrying a gun.

That seems suspiciously specific to me. I can scan-read text as fast as anyone I've met, and I'd have to stop and do a double take to glean anywhere near that much info.

[That is, unless (a) you regularly sit in the same spot and visit calguns w/ someone positioned close behind you or (b) have a stalker.]

Please don't think I'm paranoid, but have you considered the possibility that your calguns activity was discovered by network monitoring rather than first person observation? (I assume one has to sign in to utilize the PC and/or local network.) I know next to nothing about network administration, so tech guys, kick me under the table if I'm blowing smoke :o

lawnrevenge
08-30-2007, 4:53 PM
Reading this site in public makes me a little nervous not because of the gun stuff, but because of stuff like this.. http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...t=67647&page=5
I know everyone has strong views of illegal immigration and all, but advocating mining the border and shooting illegals and such is just not right .. I wouldn't want someone reading a thread like that and then lumping me in with such extreme views.

So you've never read books in public that held views you don't agree with? Did reading Mein Kampf or The Communist Manifesto mean I'm a Nazi or a Marxist? Does reading the Koran make me a Muslim? No. Did reading Anarchist's Cookbook make me a terrorist? No. When I read Earth in the Bounds I did not become a tree hugging hippie or sign on with the global warming crowd. It makes me a little better read than before. One should see both sides of an argument before taking a side. You will either change you views or reinforce them.

This is the same self censorship I'm talking about. Everyone does it. Just like when you watch what language you use around grandma (for example). I will self censor for certain reasons of self preservation.
:rant:
My point was that I won't self-censor because some bliss ninny thinks what I think, say, type, or look at on line it wrong or scary (as long as it's legal). It is my right to think what I want and say and type what I think and read what others type and hear what they say. It is a right that predates this country. My rights are endowed upon me by God and are recognized in the Constitution and Bill of Rights as such. The only way I will lose these rights is if I surrender them to the fears and hatred of bliss ninnies. NOTHING IS HARDER THAN THE SOFTNESS OF INDIFFERENCE. That means surrendering to these thought police rather than take up the struggle to defend your rights.

JohnJW
08-30-2007, 4:56 PM
Wow I am very very impressed by AJAX22. I don't know if in a similar situation I'll be calm enough to assert my forth amendment right or just give in and consent to the search.

Thank you for a job well done.

M. Sage
08-30-2007, 5:14 PM
Look at gun websites in public. Don't let the sheep start to herd you!

+1

This goes hand-in-hand with a rant I posted a while back about not being a closet gun owner. Closet gun ownership hurts our cause more than anything. Being scared away from doing LEGAL activities (like browsing Calguns at school or the library, not to mention having an off-list firearm or even the basic one: owning a gun) because of how other people will over-react is another victory for the antis.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=560545&postcount=25

This is, unfortunately, one of the fronts we must fight on.

Kudos to Ajax for keeping his head Just imagine: now those officers are going to have this incident in mind the next time they get a BS call like this. Enough of these BS calls (credible my butt), and they'll start basically ignoring them. And a lot of that is because of your cool head in this.

The bottom line: don't let yourselves be scared away from doing what's legal and moral because some ninny might try to make a mountain out of a mole hill. Take a lesson from this post, turn a negative into a positive by keeping your cool, remaining courteous while asserting your rights, and make a positive impression.

Again, good work Ajax, and thanks for the way you handled this.

rkt88edmo
08-30-2007, 5:17 PM
Good job!

You kept your head and did the right thing.

No freaking out and losing your sphincter control.

Congratulations.

blacklisted
08-30-2007, 5:21 PM
You shouldn't apologize to the police for making their job harder, because it wasn't you that did so! The piece of trash that falsely reported that you were making threats against the school is at fault and should be charged with filing a false report. :mad:

I'm glad that you were able to show restraint and handle the situation with dignity.

rkt88edmo
08-30-2007, 5:25 PM
Somehow I doubt the accuser actually saw Ajax write those things. They may have seen him browsing content that cntained guns and looked at the history and browsed the posts and decided to attribute some of the content to him, or showed the cops the threads, or the cops just made it up. Until you see some documentation you really have no idea what they are acting on.

Obtaining/assembling/modifying guns illegally are all easily defensible (by the accusor/police) fishing assertions, since they could just say that the reporting party misread your post about legal purchases, builds, or smithing. And who among us hasn't discussed 2 of those 3 things?

tyrist
08-30-2007, 5:28 PM
Seems like a normal investigation. They must have had probable cause to search your bag or then would not have been able to get a warrant in the first place.

M. Sage
08-30-2007, 5:31 PM
It seems like it's becoming all too easy to get a warrant these days...

tenpercentfirearms
08-30-2007, 5:36 PM
Good for you for not giving in and requiring them to get a warrant. In hindsight, you should have asked to see the warrant, but you still win because you did not roll over and just give consent like a good little boy. You stood up for your rights. In the end you had nothing to fear and you should be proud you did take a stand. How many people would have just given consent like that?

I think it is inspiring to see someone standing up for what they believe in, being respectful to the police, but not consenting to searches they do not have to.

In my post-graduate career, I would have been kicked out of school had that happened to me. I was never in class unarmed. If I ever return to school, I will continue to carry my concealed weapon on me. I will take the risk of being kicked out of school any day, but I can legally carry onto campus and the only thing they can do about it is kick me out of school. Then I will be just a regular normal guy and can always return armed again.

Virginia Tech would not have happened at the University of La Verne Bakersfield Campus while I was there.

blacklisted
08-30-2007, 5:38 PM
I agree. I can think of a few possibilities:

a) Someone who is easily frightened or anti-gun saw him reading calguns, caught a glimpse of discussion on purchasing handguns, and decided that this was somehow a threat. Maybe they thought that all guns were illegal (common with many immigrants that I have spoken to). If that were the case, any discussion of buying handguns would seem like a discussion of illegal activity. They may have had a poor grasp of the English language, which could have lead to even more confusion.

or

b) Someone told the campus police that Ajax was reading about guns at school and they decided to embellish this report in order to have an excuse to search. They may feel that Virginia Tech justifies this.

I think scenario (a) is more likely, but (b) is a possibility. Of course, it's all speculation until you find out what was in the report that lead to the warrant, if that's possible.

Somehow I doubt the accuser actually saw Ajax write those things. They may have seen him browsing content that cntained guns and looked at the history and browsed the posts and decided to attribute some of the content to him, or showed the cops the threads, or the cops just made it up. Until you see some documentation you really have no idea what they are acting on.

Obtaining/assembling/modifying guns illegally are all easily defensible fishing assertions, since they could just say that the reporting party misread your post about legal purchases, builds, or smithing. And who among us hasn't discussed 2 of those 3 things?

artherd
08-30-2007, 5:41 PM
You quite possibly have a cause of action against the person making false complaints against you.

First step, get an attorney, second step; obtain the police report. Supeona if nessecary, etc. I hope it was someone who works for the school, then you can possibly have a cause of action against the school itself (big pockets.)

We need to hit these kinds of criminals (and yes malicious prosecution is a CRIME as well as a civil matter.) in the only place they understad, their pocketbook.

Additionally, the owners of calguns.net may have an interest in protecting their good name as well. There are so many 1st ammendment issues here it is staggering.

artherd
08-30-2007, 5:48 PM
As you say, the lawyers are self explanatory, Ivan would be to let him know he has the helm here until things got worked out, Ben, Gene, and Bill would be for information and 'backup'. Time and effort has shown all three to be very capable and smart individuals and each has a field that they are better versed in then most people.
Quite frankly if I was in a bind because of a firearms related incident I'd want those three and TM-LLP all conspiring on my behalf!! Woe be it to the other guys!! :eek:
Kes- It's pretty amazing indeed what we can acomplish together! ;)

I'm thinking of having Gene's number tatooed on.


I'd LOVE to get ahold of the ****ing judge who granted the telephone warrant, based on what exactly?

Now, as to the actual encounter, the OP handled this very well and the LEOs were actually somewhat lenient. Under Terry they had the right at any time to pat him and his 'lunge area' (probally including backpack) down for weapons w/o any consent or warrant. All that is required under Terry is "Reasonable Suspicion" based on an articulatable belief that the person *may* be armed. That's it.

Good on you refusing consent searches, never ever consent. Ever. If they threaten you, threaten (legal action) back, and refuse louder.

G17GUY
08-30-2007, 5:53 PM
Good job on sticking with your rights. artherd has good advice, as the report should state who and why the police where contacted.

CavTrooper
08-30-2007, 5:57 PM
So, my question is, is it legal to read and post at calguns? Or is this one of those questions that can only be answered by the individual DAs?

carsonwales
08-30-2007, 5:59 PM
I can't really fault the police in this case. They have to act on what little information they have and fear being second-guessed and/or sued if they fail to act. Its easy to prevent everything from Pearl Harbor to 9/11 to the VA Tech shootings when you look at the available information after the incident.

Unfortunately, there are a lot of people out there that are afraid of guns and don't have a clue about the 2nd Amendment. If they were looking over AJAX22's shoulder, they probably misread something, and being on a gun website, probably freaked out. This is giving them the benefit of the doubt since it could have been someone that just plain hates guns. Or, maybe someone that AJAX22 pissed off in some manner (you took their favorite parking place?).

At least the police were nice and didn't attempt a body cavity search or drag your *** off to jail. This is the PRK and the fear of guns is not going away anytime soon.

You have to be kidding me?

Your post is very very disturbing.

To accept this sort of treatment...as 'reasonable'...is akin to opening the flood gate of oppression and tyranny. You seem willing to bow before the state as the protector of our god given liberty no matter how 'transient' or 'vague' the threat may be.

Anonymous sources armed with vague and unsubstantiated claims in the employ of the state would be all that is needed to destroy the fragile fabric of our liberty and freedom.

Do you have any idea the Pandora's box you open with this thinking?

The word of one, no matter how transient and transparent the 'fact' contained in that word, tramples and negates the rights of the many.

This is such a slippery and dark slope you seem to advocate.

How would you feel if I, by merely mentioning an unsubstantiated assumption of you, resulted in this treatment upon yourself? ...and I don't even know you.

Yet your comment seems to advocate that: I, by merely picking up a phone, or making an unsubstantiated claim of threat with no founding, would 'justifiably' allow such an egregious transgression of liberty.

Very very disturbing.

I am at loss for words.

Imagine what would happen if all it took was a phone call from a Brady Bunch member to shake you down simply because your identity was ascertained via association on a members board such as this?

Think about it...

artherd
08-30-2007, 6:14 PM
Who's Ben?:confused:

Yo ;)

grammaton76
08-30-2007, 6:17 PM
That sucks. Hopefully this wasn't an anonymous complaint, given that it was a PD thing.

But, once you get into the corporate world, expect plenty of the same crap, just with your management and not the police. HR complaints are anonymous, and I guarantee they're filed for the same reason you were reported: pure malice from an anti.

C'mon, I'm sure you all know the type: "If I complain about this conduct to the authorities any time I see it, people will stop doing it at all. I don't care that it's legal, I want no one to do it. But how dare you even consider reporting my (insert random offensive crap here)!"

M. Sage
08-30-2007, 6:19 PM
C'mon, I'm sure you all know the type: "If I complain about this conduct to the authorities any time I see it, people will stop doing it at all. I don't care that it's legal, I want no one to do it. But how dare you even consider reporting my (insert random offensive crap here)!"

Heck yeah. And that's why we can't stop being visible. If they keep reporting things like this out of pure malice, when it's just us doing our perfectly legal thing, the authorities will end up ignoring them. It won't happen overnight, but damn if it won't be a beautiful sight when it happens. :43:

Their strategy can backfire big time.

.223
08-30-2007, 6:22 PM
Look at gun websites in public. Don't let the sheep start to herd you! IF they don't like it, tough. I understand the whole school thing, and it's a personal choice to play it safe. But I won't be censored by bliss ninnies that cry and wet themselves when something doesn't fit their world view. I discuss target shooting and hunting with people in public, even on campus. I love hearing people make blanket comments of ignorance about guns and hunting and then nicely educating them. Even if they won't listen often the guy next to him will. The cops are reacting to a "threat" and won't blow it off post Virginia Tech because they would be blamed/sued if suspicious person did do something and they did nothing. Before I get back to school I will be sure to clean out my car real good. At Cal Poly Pomona right after VT last spring the campus police searched a few people's cars, including a friend with an NRA sticker on his bumper. So you in the end have two choices.
1. Avoid making bliss ninnies uncomfortable because of what you do in public. (self censorship)
2. Obey the law and not give a damn what others think. If you are staying within the law you will be inconvenienced but you will be free.



+1.

CSDGuy
08-30-2007, 6:22 PM
They will also stop if the police investigate those who are making false reports... and do so publicly...

megavolt121
08-30-2007, 6:24 PM
You have to be kidding me?

Your post is very very disturbing.

To accept this sort of treatment...as 'reasonable'...is akin to opening the flood gate of oppression and tyranny. You seem willing to bow before the state as the protector of our god given liberty no matter how 'transient' or 'vague' the threat may be.

Anonymous sources armed with vague and unsubstantiated claims in the employ of the state would be all that is needed to destroy the fragile fabric of our liberty and freedom.

Do you have any idea the Pandora's box you open with this thinking?

The word of one, no matter how transient and transparent the 'fact' contained in that word, tramples and negates the rights of the many.

This is such a slippery and dark slope you seem to advocate.

How would you feel if I, by merely mentioning an unsubstantiated assumption of you, resulted in this treatment upon yourself? ...and I don't even know you.

Yet your comment seems to advocate that: I, by merely picking up a phone, or making an unsubstantiated claim of threat with no founding, would 'justifiably' allow such an egregious transgression of liberty.

Very very disturbing.

I am at loss for words.

Imagine what would happen if all it took was a phone call from a Brady Bunch member to shake you down simply because your identity was ascertained via association on a members board such as this?

Think about it...

So what would you have done if you were in his shoes?

carsonwales
08-30-2007, 6:29 PM
So what would you have done if you were in his shoes?

I would have done the same thing hopefully...but I think he is a better and more measured man than I.

My post was directed at the fellow who seemed to think this was 'reasonable', and that given the present 'climate' you can 'understand' (an ostensibly) accept this sort of treatment.

I respectfully disagree with that opinion.

pnkssbtz
08-30-2007, 6:37 PM
I respectfully disagree with that opinion.

And I agree with you and think you hit the nail on the head with this line of reasoning.

AJAX22
08-30-2007, 6:38 PM
Thank you all for the comments, reading them has helped me relax considerably.

I left my backpack in the classroom when escorted outside specifically to avoid its contents being subject to terry, it was never within the 'lunge' area until the officers returned it to me.

Thinking back on yesterdays browsing/posting it is possible that what was seen was a comment I sent to Fox news after reading this thread:

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=67519

it was basically the standard RKBA argument, only the law abiding will be disarmed.... police can not possibly have a response time which will be fast enough to prevent violence.... 2A right... etc. and while it was strongly worded, It was not threatening in any way.

Electronic monitoring is a possibility, It seems that they would have better things to do than monitor me but hey its a brave new world out there.

will they just give me a copy of the police report and warrant along with any other documents associated with my investigation? It's my first time as a suspect, My other two run ins with the law were when my car was stolen, and when I was hospitalized for a motorcycle accident. Is it the same procedure for requesting the documents? Is there a way to do it through the mail so I don't have to waste time while I'm at school?

I would like to minimize my contact with beurocratcy if possible.

hoffmang
08-30-2007, 6:45 PM
Ajax:

The quick solution is to call the LEA and ask your questions above of them. Your investigation should be closed at this point. Certainly the warrant - if actually issued - is a public record. The best case s that the LEA explains how to get the paper trail and the worst case is that you have to write a Public Records Act request to them to get the paperwork.

-Gene

PIRATE14
08-30-2007, 6:46 PM
Possilbe internet police on the campus.......they monitor all that type of stuff.....you have no right to privacy on the net.......

Pretty sure you'd notice anyone looking over your shoulder, at least enough to gather all that info that you allegedly posted....

I'd get a copy of that warrant.....for your records and send a copy to TM.....if they start to watch you more closely or bother you in class.....you've got to have stuff documented to bring up any.....harrasment charges, lost wages, lost education.....etc....

KUDOS to you.......very well handled, w/ repect to circumstances..

RRangel
08-30-2007, 6:48 PM
I respectfully disagree with that opinion.

Yes I couldn't have put it better. This situation is pathetic.
There needs to be definite legal action taken against false accusers.

Kestryll
08-30-2007, 6:58 PM
It depends on what the term 'reasonable' means.

While this should not happen and the 'probable cause' is fictitious a best what should the Police do once a complaint is registered?

I don't mean what should they do in a perfect world or according to what is the best course Constitutionally.

I mean today, now, in the political and litigious society we live in today.

It sucks and it's not right but if they don't at least look in to it they will be crucified if something were to happen, people died and there is a record of a complaint.

On the other hand there should be major repercussions for violating someone's rights and our legal system is suppose to be predicated on 'Innocent until proven guilty'.

So the question is which side do you err on?

I don't have the best answer other than changing the laws and litigious nature of society. Until then there will be problems to be vigilant against and much work to be done.

ETA: These comments only address the Police's responsibilities after the complaint has been made. The initial accuser should have to back their charge with liability for the problems caused to an innocent person.
When they have something on the line too there will be less specious claims made.

WokMaster1
08-30-2007, 6:58 PM
Yo ;)

Ohhhhhhhh!:p Do I call you if Uncle Iggy comes to my place & demands that I make coffee?:eek:

carsonwales
08-30-2007, 7:27 PM
So the question is which side do you err on?

I think you meant to say: "What side do 'they' err on?"

There is no doubt what side I am going to err on; it the side of freedom, liberty and person responsibility...not only to myself...but you.

It is tragic to contemplate a world where the threat of re-percussive litigation trumps an 'inherint' duty to preserve a free state and its people...especially when young men and women are dying overseas to protect that freedom...

This is not the same world I grew up in...

metalhead357
08-30-2007, 7:33 PM
This sh*t has to stop.

AJAX22, I don't recally any of your posts being even remotely controversial, incorrect, etc. Ordinary discussion about ordinary guys about legal gun matters in CA.

You handled yourself well. I realize you do have a life and wanted this to go away as quickly as possible, but I would not have consented to the personal search. If they wanna search you they will, let them do it under your protest. It is not out of the realm of reality for LA cops 'plant' things and

Frankly it sounds like Calguns is being targeted; I'm wondering if the 'student looking over your shoulder' is actually a pretext.

However, if that is true, it would be good to find out who, and I believe you may have an actionable matter against that individual. While the recovery may be minimal it'd be nice to see a few of these folks hanging in the wind with a judgment against them.

Yep. I agree. In the meantime find out who this chick is...if there is one and get a restraining order. Yep...she caused you undue hardship and created a possible crisis at school & impeded your education. Get a TRO and then she cant even share the same friggin' classroom with you. Proceed on a civil matter as you see fit...it just might pay for a 4 year school.

tenpercentfirearms
08-30-2007, 7:38 PM
I think Pirate has it right. I do not see how anyone could have read anything like this over your shoulder. I think someone on campus monitored your activity from the computer services and they reported it. Despite you being a gun freak, if it is made clear to the student body that everything they were typing on campus was being monitored by the police, the liberals would have a fit. They might even be forced to side with you for privacy reasons.

There is a lot of rhetoric on this board, but I want you to actually think about this one from this angle. You can fight this and get the liberals to help you. These spoiled liberal kids will have a conniption if they find out the school is monitoring their Internet traffic. Expose the system and have fun with it.

Do not let this die, find out who was spying on you and expose it. Take it to the local school paper and weed them out. Have fun with it. Good luck.

And there are other community colleges out there. If the pressure turns up and you are afraid you won't be treated objectively, go some where else.

People have to stand up sometimes, go for it. You know we have your back. I wouldn't be surprised if you start digging, how deep this could go. This has the alure for national media outlets. Don't let this one die.

artherd
08-30-2007, 7:41 PM
Thank you all for the comments, reading them has helped me relax considerably.

I left my backpack in the classroom when escorted outside specifically to avoid its contents being subject to terry, it was never within the 'lunge' area until the officers returned it to me.

Nevermind on Terry then, my god I'd love to see that warrant! What the hell did the judge think he had probable cause to go in there for? Somebody specifically gave information that indicated *you* had a *firearm* in *specifically that bag*. This STINKS! Good on you refusing! I bet the cops were just itching to find some contraband of any sort in there.

will they just give me a copy of the police report and warrant along with any other documents associated with my investigation? It's my first time as a suspect, My other two run ins with the law were when my car was stolen, and when I was hospitalized for a motorcycle accident. Is it the same procedure for requesting the documents? Is there a way to do it through the mail so I don't have to waste time while I'm at school?

I would like to minimize my contact with beurocratcy if possible.

Yes, written request (sent Certified Mail) is the best way by far. You want to word it as "INFORMAL REQUEST FOR DISCOVERY". (this is a precursor to court ordered discovery. If an agency does not respond to court ordered discovery, it can be held in contempt.)

In your request, you want to specifically identify any and all documents you are seeking. PM/e-mail me if you like and I will help you write a very through one.

Kestryll
08-30-2007, 7:42 PM
I think you meant to say: "What side do 'they' err on?"
True, that would be the better wording.

It is tragic to contemplate a world where the threat of re-percussive litigation trumps an 'inherent' duty to preserve a free state and its people...especially when young men and women are dying overseas to protect that freedom...
It's not just re percussive litigation, if they don't respond and something happens, lives are lost, people are injured for life and they lose their job, home, possessions and future.
I don't say it's right but we need to focus on what got us here, what keeps us here and what can change it. And it's not the individual officer we need to address.

This is not the same world I grew up in...
No it's not.
And it won't be the same world kids today are growing up in either.
Times always change, the trick is to do the best you can to make them change for the better.


And that change is what we're here for.

Patriot
08-30-2007, 7:42 PM
I think Pirate has it right. I do not see how anyone could have read anything like this over your shoulder. I think someone on campus monitored your activity from the computer services and they reported it. Despite you being a gun freak, if it is made clear to the student body that everything they were typing on campus was being monitored by the police, the liberals would have a fit. They might even be forced to side with you for privacy reasons.

Might you have meant Patriot ;)

Kestryll
08-30-2007, 7:43 PM
Agreed, don't give up on getting the warrant!
I'd like to see it as well!

metalhead357
08-30-2007, 7:44 PM
I I think someone on campus monitored your activity from the computer services and they reported it.

You can fight this and get the liberals to help you. These spoiled liberal kids will have a conniption if they find out the school is monitoring their Internet traffic. Expose the system and have fun with it. .


True.ANYONE on a 'public' line IS being monitored...through thier censoring software; if you cant hit a gun site, pron site, messege forum...whatever...if you get "blocked" ever...then you ARE being monitored and the logs are *sometimes* checked........... they are also open to a supeona......

tenpercentfirearms
08-30-2007, 7:47 PM
Pretty sure you'd notice anyone looking over your shoulder, at least enough to gather all that info that you allegedly posted....

You might have said it first and I didn't see it, but I am referring to this post so I do indeed mean Pirate.

POSER! :p J/K
True.ANYONE on a 'public' line IS being monitored...through thier censoring software; if you cant hit a gun site, pron site, messege forum...whatever...if you get "blocked" ever...then you ARE being monitored and the logs are *sometimes* checked........... they are also open to a supeona......Damn straight! My campus just installed surf blocker or whatever the hell the name of it is so I came back to my inservice to find I could no longer access www.tenpercentfirearms.com or calguns.net. (but www.coldwarshooters.com still works! grrr...) I spent the whole morning surfing for info on surf blocker or surf safe or whatever the hell the name of it is and trying to find passive ways around it. Basically I couldn't find anything other than setting up a proxy, but that is most certainly not allowed.

I e-mailed my tech to let him know I spent a lot of time hitting sites and searches for ways around the system and that I had no intention of actually doing it, I was just checking it out. I didn't want to them seeing my logs and thinking I was up to no good.

To my surprise he said nothing gets logged!!! I guess if a public institution logs people's Internet traffic, it is most certainly within the public's right to demand access to those logs. So if the Bakersfield Californian wanted to know what school teachers and/or administrators in the Kern High School District looked at on the web that day, they could get those records. And that is why we don't log people's history! I was quite surprised.

So SMCC might not be as smart as they think and they might be recording your info to protect themselves if you do go VT on them. You most certainly could use that against them and blow this whole thing wide open.

artherd
08-30-2007, 7:48 PM
In this case, I think the Police acted relatively well here assuming the false report was presented in a credible fasion. They contacted you relatively discreetly, interviewed, investigated, and determined that you were no threat, and you went on your way. The search of your backpack is questionable, depending on the complaint (if the complaint actually implicated your backpack specifically, "I saw a black handle of a gun in his backpack") then they were in the right to seek a warrant.

The reporting person committed several crimes as well as civil torts here, and should be held accountable on both fronts.

The Judge who issued that warrant should probally be fired; again pending review of the complaint.

It depends on what the term 'reasonable' means.

While this should not happen and the 'probable cause' is fictitious a best what should the Police do once a complaint is registered?

I don't mean what should they do in a perfect world or according to what is the best course Constitutionally.

I mean today, now, in the political and litigious society we live in today.

It sucks and it's not right but if they don't at least look in to it they will be crucified if something were to happen, people died and there is a record of a complaint.

On the other hand there should be major repercussions for violating someone's rights and our legal system is suppose to be predicated on 'Innocent until proven guilty'.

So the question is which side do you err on?

I don't have the best answer other than changing the laws and litigious nature of society. Until then there will be problems to be vigilant against and much work to be done.

ETA: These comments only address the Police's responsibilities after the complaint has been made. The initial accuser should have to back their charge with liability for the problems caused to an innocent person.
When they have something on the line too there will be less specious claims made.

carsonwales
08-30-2007, 7:49 PM
People have to stand up sometimes, go for it.

Sometimes?

This isn't a part time job.

I know your comment is measured...I know the sacrifices you are making and I thank you for them.

We need to stand up all the time...24/7 and we need to 'check6' frequently...not only for ourselves...but each other.

artherd
08-30-2007, 7:50 PM
Ohhhhhhhh!:p Do I call you if Uncle Iggy comes to my place & demands that I make coffee?:eek:
Heck yes! I want hot chocolate!

pnkssbtz
08-30-2007, 7:51 PM
God I love reading the people on this site!

Excellent question you raised Kestryll. It is safe to say that Virginia Tech, which is responsible for the climate that exists today, would have been prevented had police and officials taken the approach that they are now, in regards to campus safety.

However, as the other thread has demonstrated (here (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=67641)) the fault was not in the lack of reduced burdens for probable cause (allowing more invasive searches with less justification) but instead a complete lack of follow through and insufficient policies across multiple agencies (faculty, police, judiciary and medical personnel involved).


Certainly the policy enacted and executed by campuses and police today will effectively inhibit another incident such as Virginia Tech, but so will mandatory background checks, searches of all belongings and persons upon entering premises, and of course the complete revocation of your constitutional rights.

The question then is at what cost will this extra "security" provide, and what will be lost in affording it?


Fortunately this dilemma has been addressed already; over 200 years ago to be exact:


"They that can give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin


"False is the idea of utility that sacrifices a thousand real advantages for one imaginary or trifling inconvenience; that would take fire from men because it burns, and water because one may drown in it; that has no remedy for evils, except destruction. The laws that forbid the carrying of arms are laws of such a nature. They disarm those only who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes. Can it be supposed that those who have the courage to violate the most sacred laws of humanity, the most important of the code, will respect the less important and arbitrary ones, which can be violated with ease and impunity, and which, if strictly obeyed, would put an end to personal liberty-so dear to men, so dear to the enlightened legislator-and subject innocent persons to all the vexations that the quality alone ought to suffer? Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an unarmed man. They ought to be designated as laws not preventive but fearful of crimes, produced by the tumultuous impression of a few isolated facts, and not by thoughtful consideration of the inconveniences and advantages of a universal decree." - Thomas Jefferson, quoting 18th century criminologist Cesare Beccaria in "On Crimes and Punishment", 1764


"The only way Governments can induce citizens to surrender their rights is convincing them that by doing so, they will gain a measure of safety in exchange."- Thomas Jefferson


"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of Human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." - William Pitt, British House of Commons, November 18, 1783


"I believe there are more instances of the abridgement of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison

Patriot
08-30-2007, 7:52 PM
These spoiled liberal kids will have a conniption if they find out the school is monitoring their Internet traffic.

Two words: file sharing :eek:

You might have said it first and I didn't see it, but I am referring to this post so I do indeed mean Pirate.

:owned: My bad.

tenpercentfirearms
08-30-2007, 7:57 PM
Sometimes?

This isn't a part time job.

I know your comment is measured...I know the sacrifices you are making and I thank you for them.

We need to stand up all the time...24/7 and we need to 'check6' frequently...not only for ourselves...but each other.

Yeah I mean sometimes. If this guy decides to let this die and move on, then that is his right. I don't get to decide what he is comfortable doing. If this is a small enough issue on his radar that he will accomplish more someday by moving on and fighting the system a different way, that is his choice to make.

I am not that big into puffing people up with rhetoric like they owe me something. Until you have been in a situation where your life is on the line and the sacrifices being made are yours, you don't get to judge others. And when you have been there and made the decision, you won't want to judge others.

This world is gray. Do what you think you can and I think we can all agree we have your back.

carsonwales
08-30-2007, 8:01 PM
Do what you think you can and I think we can all agree we have your back.

You have my utmost respect.

CW

PS: Where the hell are my high cap mags? (just kidding)

hitnrun
08-30-2007, 8:02 PM
I realize you do have a life and wanted this to go away as quickly as possible, but I would not have consented to the personal search. If they wanna search you they will, let them do it under your protest.

Terry v. Ohio

They had reasonable cause to detain him as they were investigating a report of a crime involving weapons. They had every right to do a pat search for weapons. They did not need his consent to do a pat down of his person for weapons. Think of it as verbal judo or tactical communications. By asking you for consent, it makes and/or gives the illusion to the person that they are still in control of things and helps to keep them at ease...usually. That is the point of asking for it most of the time. Other times, it is as simple as a "fishing expedition."

You are right Bill, they would pat him down anyways, regardless of protest. Especially if it is an officer safety issue.

Sounds like everything went fine to me. I would be most concerned about who made the complaint against you though. That is some disturbing $H!T.:mad:

CSDGuy
08-30-2007, 8:05 PM
Ajax even went as far to tell us that he separated himself from his backpack so that the PD could NOT do a Terry search of the pack, instead they'd have to either get a warrant or get his consent to search the pack.

bwiese
08-30-2007, 8:06 PM
Ajax even went as far to tell us that he separated himself from his backpack so that the PD could NOT do a Terry search of the pack, instead they'd have to either get a warrant or get his consent to search the pack.

That was very good thinking of him.

pnkssbtz
08-30-2007, 8:06 PM
Ajax even went as far to tell us that he separated himself from his backpack so that the PD could NOT do a Terry search of the pack, instead they'd have to either get a warrant or get his consent to search the pack.

+1.

Ajax is sharp and can think on his feet. That was very excellent!

oaklander
08-30-2007, 8:08 PM
Wow Ajax - you handled yourself well and with dignity!

What amazes me is that some dirtwad appears to have made up a story about you, and then went to the police. A total waste of police time, and your time. There's some sick little twits out there.

carsonwales
08-30-2007, 8:09 PM
That was very good thinking of him.

+1

You guys are so damned sharp.

jimx
08-30-2007, 8:13 PM
They stated that since I was a suspect under investigation being detainedÖ

They apologized to me for the inconvenience, chatted about competitive shooting and ca law a bit and sent me on my way.


The Police are not your friend. You have nothing to gain and everything to lose when you ďchatĒ with them. If you are free to go Ė leave. If not - keep quite. Do you think that after they got done searching you they thought you were such a cool guy that they didnít want to leave; they wanted to hang out and shoot the sxxx? They were not talking about competitive shooting, they were fishingÖ

pnkssbtz
08-30-2007, 8:15 PM
Here is another question.

If someone makes a statement to the police about definite criminal activity (not possible, because in this case someone articulated definitive actions that were allegedly taking place) would their anonymity be protected by the police?

I.E. If I go to the police with the claim that Wes has a .50 cal M2 on a trailer attached to his scooter (sorry couldn't help it Wes :p) and is driving around town "threatening" people with, and I volunteer this information with the contingency that I remain anonymous, what happens when it later turns out my claims were false?


False claims of this nature are certainly tortious, but would they not also be criminal? And if criminal, would not the police be obligated to file charges and arrest, particularly if the false claims causes an egregious situation (such as violations of constitutional rights)?

carsonwales
08-30-2007, 8:18 PM
And that change is what we're here for.

Yes it is sir.

I thank you for this place and privilege to be here.

CCWFacts
08-30-2007, 8:21 PM
Ajax should be proud of how he handled that. Especially the part about not consenting to a search.

Rob P.
08-30-2007, 8:27 PM
Some things I would recommend for those who are reading this thread and forming thoughts about what they would do in similar circumstances....

First, ask the officers what the problem is and then SHUT THE HECK UP except to say you have no comments to make and that you do not consent to any search and, if necessary, you want a lawyer present before any more questioning. There are other methods you can use to alter the ultimate outcome but you need to be VERY VERY VERY sharp and up to date to use them and get away with it. (need to know, understand, and recognize difference between detention and custodial interrogation for example and when the line is crossed from one to the other.)

Second, get that warrant so that we can see the PC statement. Lots of knowledgable people here. Many with legal training and smarts enough to look things up that they don't understand.

Third, realize that the "informant" was software/spyware programmed to report on ANYTHING which says "gun". Email, websites, whatever; if it says "gun" you get reported. There was probably no human involved until the software "alert" and then only after the fact. The warrant will specify what and who. I'd like to see the PC stmt and test the "reliability of the witness".

Last, very well done in spite of the things I mention above. You kept your head and dealt with the situation better than a lot of people I know who are trained to deal with that sort of thing. Kudos. BTW, what are your 2 majors?

fairfaxjim
08-30-2007, 8:34 PM
This sh*t has to stop.

Unfortunately, I believe that this is only the beginning of a very hostile witch hunt and inquisition against anyone expressing any pro gun or 2A views while on or associated with an educational institution. Today the "finger pointing" report with all of the second guessing about the VA Tech. shootings was made public - over and over and over again. Never mind that the school administration and it's campus police were raked over the coals - after the fact - because they didn't immediately rise to the task (before they knew what the task was) and do the impossible - for the how ever many years Cho was insane leading up to the act (at least starting with Columbine). The talking heads and victims families have been screaming for the VA Tech president and Police Chiefs jobs and heads on a platter all day.

While I still figure the government runs on much more stupidity than conspiracy, coming down hard and fast (including alleging that they have mental problems) on ANYONE who even utters "gun" on a campus is becoming the normal mode of operation. God knows they don't want a report blaming them for another massacre. The basic rights regarding privacy, free speech, freedom of assembly, RKBA, etc., has been so routinely violated in the War on Drugs, the War on Terrorism, the War on Gang Violence, the War on (insert cause here) that how dare us expect those rights to be upheld when it comes to "the safety of our children on their school campus"

Kestryll
08-30-2007, 8:37 PM
Yes it is sir.

I thank you for this place and privilege to be here.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, this place would be nothing without the members that make it not just a web forum but a community.

I just keep the lights on and fiddle with the wires under the hood. ;)

FreedomIsNotFree
08-30-2007, 8:39 PM
Yes, written request (sent Certified Mail) is the best way by far. You want to word it as "INFORMAL REQUEST FOR DISCOVERY". (this is a precursor to court ordered discovery. If an agency does not respond to court ordered discovery, it can be held in contempt.)

In your request, you want to specifically identify any and all documents you are seeking. PM/e-mail me if you like and I will help you write a very through one.

I agree that ajax needs pursue his accuser to the fullest extent possible. Proper paper trail is required. Unfortunately, "discovery" is only a right once you have been charged, or file a civil suit. Until then its a public record issue.

The police/campus police may try and pull some crap about not divulging the name of the person for "protection" reasons...etc..etc..etc. That's when an attorney will be needed...likely only a court order will force the PD to name the "witness".

The report itself with the reasoning for the warrant would be a great read....even without the name of the accuser.

mecam
08-30-2007, 8:42 PM
Please don't think I'm paranoid, but have you considered the possibility that your calguns activity was discovered by network monitoring rather than first person observation? (I assume one has to sign in to utilize the PC and/or local network.) I know next to nothing about network administration, so tech guys, kick me under the table if I'm blowing smoke :o

It's called a network sniffer. You can trace anything going in & out of any computer. You can trace by phrases/words like gun, child porn, etc... and trace it back to the IP and location of the PC. You can even capture the actual screen being viewed at any time and user will not know about. We do it all the time at my work because the SEC requires us to do it.:D

hoffmang
08-30-2007, 8:45 PM
AJAX,

Is the computer lab you were in open to the public and could we have a Calguns surf in there?

Nothing like a little non threatening protest to remind people that certain kinds of Political Correctness are neither politically astute or correct...

-Gene

carsonwales
08-30-2007, 8:47 PM
And that change is what we're here for.

Amen Kestryll

Patriot
08-30-2007, 8:55 PM
Third, realize that the "informant" was software/spyware programmed to report on ANYTHING which says "gun". Email, websites, whatever; if it says "gun" you get reported. There was probably no human involved until the software "alert" and then only after the fact.

It's called a network sniffer. You can trace anything going in & out of any computer. You can trace by phrases/words like gun, child porn, etc... and trace it back to the IP and location of the PC. You can even capture the actual screen being viewed at any time and user will not know about. We do it all the time at my work because the SEC requires us to do it

9vnz FTW Now we just need a proxy based filter (is that possible) to stick it to the man :p

oaklander
08-30-2007, 8:59 PM
Yes:

http://www.freeproxy.ru/en/free_proxy/cgi-proxy.htm

http://www.proxy4free.com/page1.html

Here's another way:

http://www.google.com/translate?langpair=en|en&u=www.calguns.net

More hacks: http://del.icio.us/url/afe66c74fe2ec40ed7ed2ebdbffaa1e8

mecam
08-30-2007, 9:04 PM
Yes:

http://www.freeproxy.ru/en/free_proxy/cgi-proxy.htm

Unless the school blocks all proxy sites, then you're SOL.

Q
08-30-2007, 9:10 PM
Damn Ajax!,
You handled that situation very well. Good thing you got your wife on call.;)
Computer lab- I used to go there, usually the computers are against the wall and your back is exposed to all..I used to browse http://www.kitcars.com/ and other car stuff there.:D

scattered_x
08-30-2007, 9:11 PM
AJAX, I have to agree with everybody else on this board that you did an absolutely great job in handling yourself. It really is too bad that this kind of crap is prevalent in our society nowadays. The .gov has everybody so scared that they're willing to give up their own just to feel a little safer. It's a shame.

By the way, it's the people like you on this board that made me want to join. Everybody is fighting for a real and common cause in this God forsaken state. I appreciate that.

carsonwales
08-30-2007, 9:35 PM
The .gov has everybody so scared that they're willing to give up their own just to feel a little safer.

You are not scared. Neither am I...and certainly AJAX isn't scared.

Events such as these may make us cringe at first...but by virtue of this community...and its galvanic effect...it makes us more formidable.

Threads such as these make us less afraid.

Threads such these make us stronger.

Leave the emotion of fear to the opposition...for we have neither the time nor inclination to embrace weakness...

We are on offense...and it is a full court press.

You have a duty to be heard...and push back.

Let them fear us...we are strong, organized and indelible...

Steyr_223
08-30-2007, 9:35 PM
AJAX, Rock On! Great grace under pressure.

ivanimal
08-30-2007, 10:04 PM
Ajax, I agree with the others that say you did a good job. I doubt I would have been able to do the same. It is an honor to be a part of the vehicle that gives good info to keep us all on the straight and narrow. Calguns has proven to be a loud voice indeed.
I am mixed in my feelings of how this was handled by the police, I have the utmost respect for law enforcement but do believe the law can be bent in their favor at times to get what is desired. I just cant tell if it was them or others that fabricated the situation. I do know that it smells fishy at best.
I would definilely pursue more info at least.

The only disturbing thing I read here is that Kestryll would hand over the keys to the car to me, if need be:eek:.

(Just think I could controll the world!:D)

M. Sage
08-30-2007, 10:26 PM
The Police are not your friend. You have nothing to gain and everything to lose when you ďchatĒ with them. If you are free to go Ė leave. If not - keep quite. Do you think that after they got done searching you they thought you were such a cool guy that they didnít want to leave; they wanted to hang out and shoot the sxxx? They were not talking about competitive shooting, they were fishingÖ

There are a lot of instances where I'd agree, but sometimes a duck is a duck. You'd be surprised...

hoffmang
08-30-2007, 11:06 PM
The only disturbing thing I read here is that Kestryll would hand over the keys to the car to me, if need be:eek:.

(Just think I could controll the world!:D)

No forsale item shall pass.

-Gene

artherd
08-30-2007, 11:47 PM
I agree that ajax needs pursue his accuser to the fullest extent possible. Proper paper trail is required. Unfortunately, "discovery" is only a right once you have been charged, or file a civil suit. Until then its a public record issue.
While technically true, I've found an IRD usually does not get ignored. Plus, he can always just file.

The police/campus police may try and pull some crap about not divulging the name of the person for "protection" reasons...etc..etc..etc. That's when an attorney will be needed...likely only a court order will force the PD to name the "witness".

The report itself with the reasoning for the warrant would be a great read....even without the name of the accuser.

Quite possible, and yes it would be a great read :)

artherd
08-30-2007, 11:49 PM
The .gov has everybody so scared that they're willing to give up their own just to feel a little safer.

Not everybody ;)

-aK-
08-31-2007, 12:10 AM
You have to be kidding me?

Your post is very very disturbing.

To accept this sort of treatment...as 'reasonable'...is akin to opening the flood gate of oppression and tyranny. You seem willing to bow before the state as the protector of our god given liberty no matter how 'transient' or 'vague' the threat may be.

Anonymous sources armed with vague and unsubstantiated claims in the employ of the state would be all that is needed to destroy the fragile fabric of our liberty and freedom.

Do you have any idea the Pandora's box you open with this thinking?

The word of one, no matter how transient and transparent the 'fact' contained in that word, tramples and negates the rights of the many.

This is such a slippery and dark slope you seem to advocate.

How would you feel if I, by merely mentioning an unsubstantiated assumption of you, resulted in this treatment upon yourself? ...and I don't even know you.

Yet your comment seems to advocate that: I, by merely picking up a phone, or making an unsubstantiated claim of threat with no founding, would 'justifiably' allow such an egregious transgression of liberty.

Very very disturbing.

I am at loss for words.

Imagine what would happen if all it took was a phone call from a Brady Bunch member to shake you down simply because your identity was ascertained via association on a members board such as this?

Think about it...

I haven't got through this entire thread yet but damn if this isn't a good post.

5968
08-31-2007, 1:19 AM
Wow... I really don't what to say about this. I realize the police have a job to do and all, but it wasn't like THEY caught Ajax doing something and reacted. They responded to what sounds like some shady info that they could have but didn't check out prior to even speaking with him. The police may have been professional, but it doesn't sound like they did too much investigating before they pulled him out of class. It isn't like they didn't have any time to either if the supposed "threat" came in the day before. Sounds like someone has it in for you Ajax, be careful.

FreedomIsNotFree
08-31-2007, 4:32 AM
I hope everyone realizes how close this was....this could have very easily been another BWO type catastrophe.

scattered_x
08-31-2007, 5:52 AM
You are not scared. Neither am I...and certainly AJAX isn't scared.

And I agree with you 100%, but I was referring to the masses at large; the ones who observe you posting on a gun board and have instant panic rush through their body.

eta34
08-31-2007, 6:15 AM
Just for the record...after researching last night, the police are NOT required to give you a copy of the warrant when the conduct their search. See Calabrese (2002) for further details. I believe it was a 4th circuit decision....

WokMaster1
08-31-2007, 6:47 AM
Just for the record...after researching last night, the police are NOT required to give you a copy of the warrant when the conduct their search. See Calabrese (2002) for further details. I believe it was a 4th circuit decision....

9th circuit has always danced to their own tune vs the rest of the country. That is a known fact. Do you think it will be swayed by what Virginia thinks? I'm really curious.

Wulf
08-31-2007, 6:47 AM
Ever?

You would think that if they didnt have to produce it at the search it would at least be deliverable promptly on request whether or not they found anything.

Glock22Fan
08-31-2007, 7:04 AM
Ever?

You would think that if they didnt have to produce it at the search it would at least be deliverable promptly on request whether or not they found anything.

There has to be paperwork, and the searchee must be able to get a copy, even if only afterwards. Else what's to stop the police searching anyone they want and claiming they have a warrent when they don't?

Paratus et Vigilans
08-31-2007, 7:37 AM
It's already been said multiple times, but I still want to add my voice to the chorus:

Ajax, you did a GREAT job handling yourself in that situation!

When I was your age and had your level of life experience, and was without the formal legal training I now have, I do not believe I would have handled myself nearly as well in the same situation. Then again, I grew up in a different world than you.

The person who called in the complaint against you, even if it was some tech checking on your surfing habits, needs to be brought to heel. Being personally opposed to and/or afraid of guns is no excuse to make a false police report. I also understand your need to get your degrees and get on with life, and so I suggest that you get done with SMCC first, and then take action on this. You should have time, since you are so close to being done, to finish up there before any possible statutes of limitation might run on taking action against the false reporter.

Lastly, I really hate seeing the way the "us vs. them" comments come out whenever one of us reports having some contact with LEO's. The LEO's who dealt with Ajax were, by his account, polite and professional in how they carried out their job duties. Why the vitriol? I know there are some bad ones out there. There are some bad ones in all jobs and professions. Let's not use that as an excuse or reason to go through life with the mind set that all LEO's are somehow "the enemy" of gun owners. They aren't. They're us. I deal with sheriff's deputies in courthouses and courtrooms all over the state, and I have found that if you treat them with respect and a kind word, you get the same from them. Every now and then I run into one who's having a bad day, or a bad life, and I give him some room and feel sorry for him. On the whole, however, they're just like you and me. Sure, haivng the badge and the gun gives them some power or authority that others don't have, but it also makes them a target. I for one am happy to have armed sheriff's deputies in the courthouse and in the courtrooms. Those are stressful places, and now and then someone comes unhinged in there with no forewarning at all. I know the deputies aren't there to protect me, personally, but I know they are there to keep the peace to the extent they are able, and to me, that makes them one of US, one of the good guys, and not one of THEM, THEM being the bad guys who are an ENEMY of the peace.

Just my $0.02 on the subject.

Wulf
08-31-2007, 9:58 AM
Ajax, one thing you should consider is getting a usb jump drive and setting up Firefox Portable on it. It wont save you from scruitny at the server level, but it will keep your history from the prying eyes of an anti that sits down at the machine after you. As a bonus you'll have all your own book marks and cookied logins.

CSDGuy
08-31-2007, 10:04 AM
When I'm at school, most of the campus is covered by a Wi-Fi network. I don't use the school's labs for surfing. I use my own laptop. I then setup a VPN to my house... That solves the server scrutiny problem as well as the local machine issues. It also solves one other problem. Use of Wi-Fi packet sniffers. They'll see a bunch of encrypted traffic... and if I'm on an encrypted site already, the portion of traffic of that encrypted site between my home and my computer (via VPN) is encrypted twice.

CSDGuy
08-31-2007, 10:05 AM
Ajax, one thing you should consider is getting a usb jump drive and setting up Firefox Portable on it. It wont save you from scruitny at the server level, but it will keep your history from the prying eyes of an anti that sits down at the machine after you. As a bonus you'll have all your own book marks and cookied logins.

Actually, this is not that bad of an idea. I use Portable Firefox myself...

AJAX22
08-31-2007, 2:11 PM
An interesting update..

I went in to the campus police station today to begin the process of requesting a copy of the police report and warrant along with any accompanying documentation. The staff were polite and courteous, and the nice officer who came into the classroom was actually there working on something and came out to say Hi.

Apparently it takes seven to ten days for a police report to be submitted and filed so that I can request a copy. They said that they will have a copy for me when it is completed.

The interesting part of the trip was the response to my request for a copy of the warrant, at first they just stated that telephonic warrants do not have face sheets, and after talking amongst themselves for a minuite or so in back, they informed me that when they called in for the warrant "that service was not available to us at the time" but they assured me that it would all be explained in the narrative of the police report.

I did not ask any follow up questions (the obvious one being "Did you actually get a warrant or did you do a search without consent and without a judge giving you the ok" The reason being that I didn't want to cause anyone to review and 'revise' the report before I was able to get a copy of it in my hand.

They did not actually state to me that they had asked for and received a warrant at the time of the search, they just went off on the telephone and came back and performed the search after telling me that they were going to go get a telephonic warrant.

I'm curious to see the report and find out what the actual story is. I'm beginning to suspect that they performed the search based on nothing but the presumption of probable cause which I do not feel was substantiated.

If they did search me without a warrant, its completely unacceptable, and given that I was waiting for a callback from legal representation (which I stated plainly in front of them), to proceed with the search before I was able to obtain legal council just seems kind of shady to me.

I don't want to get too far offtrack with wild speculation (its possible that they did indeed obtain a warrant and simply were referring to the fact that a manner of printing or transmitting a written copy was temporarily unavailable)

but........

It still remains to be seen just how far the rabbit hole goes... now we just have to wait 10 days... but hey in CA us gunnies are used to it...

wilit
08-31-2007, 2:45 PM
:popcorn: Good lord this story gets more interesting by the minute. I'm just glad we don't have an Ajax22 fund raising thread like poor BWO.

hoffmang
08-31-2007, 2:51 PM
If they did not actually get the warrant, Don Kilmer here in San Jose has the 9th Circuit rewarding attorneys fees and $1 in a similar situation though that situation had higher stakes.

Very interesting.

-Gene

Satex
08-31-2007, 3:49 PM
An interesting update..


So the way I read what you said is that they did not have a legal warrant to search your bag, they lied to you about having a warrant in order to obtain illegal access to your items, and now they are looking for creative ways to write their report and not get busted.

I would now ask them for the paperwork for filing a formal complain against an officer. I hope you already have the information (names, badge numbers) of all the officers that participated in the what appears to be an illegal search.

I am willing to put $100 for your "offense" attorney. You should go and get them. There is NO reason why a citizen should be subject to police abuse.
Did you get the complaintent's information as well? Sounds like someone was lying to the police and you had to pay the price.

Also, you should serious consider writing an article about your experience to the school newspaper.

AJAX22
08-31-2007, 4:06 PM
I don't want to jump the gun (so to speak) it could still be legit. And I'm not certain that singling out officers for a formal complaint is the correct way to handle a departmental policy flaw. Like I said, they seemed like nice guys.

A complaint on their record isn't going to address the greater issue of fourth amendment rights and first amendment freedoms. They conducted themselves courteously and politely and that does count for a lot. Its a systemic problem, and I don't fault the responding officers if they were ordered to perform the search without the warrant. (its the one issuing the orders and the policy itself which should be reformed)

I don't know what exactly happened, but when the police report comes out we all will get a better grasp of the situation. It should include complaintent information, responding officers, who ordered the search, etc.

Sit tight, wait the ten days and lets hold off on speculation. It could still be legit, I'm beginning to have doubts, but innocent until proven guilty applies to everyone equally.

I appreciate the offer of legal 'offense' funds, but there is a good chance that this will stay (at most) as a civil matter.

BWO could use your help right now more than I can.

pnkssbtz
08-31-2007, 4:42 PM
Like I said, they seemed like nice guys.



"Good intentions will always be pleaded for every assumption of authority. It is hardly too strong to say that the Constitution was made to guard the people against the dangers of good intentions. There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters." - Daniel Webster


The road to hell is paved with good intentions.


Edited to add:

A fireman's job is to put out fires. An attorney's job is to litigate law. An account's job is balance finances. A printer's job is to print. And a baker's job is to bake.

So what is a police officer's job?


I am not saying that the LEO was derelict. I am very glad they were courteous and polite. That speaks wonder's for their character. The ability to conduct oneself in a courteous and polite fashion while dealing with an adversarial situation is commendable. However their job is to arrest criminals; never forget that when you come under their scrutiny.


If I rob someone but I am polite about it, that does not change the nature of the acts being perpetrated.



I think you are doing the right thing. Everything hangs upon the police report at this point.

Just don't let up on them because they were "nice and polite to you" as they violated your first and fourth amendment constitutional rights.

metalhead357
08-31-2007, 4:43 PM
Unless the school blocks all proxy sites, then you're SOL.


And Btw.....use of ANY proxie can/will usually be against the Acceptable use policy.....it can/will still get ya' in about as much trouble as surfing for & getting caught on any other blocked site; some places that means nothin' will happen, others means computer rights suspended or revoked...or the immortal ban from school.

AJAX- thanks for the update. Sorry ya' went through this. ANY case involving prob. cause is/can always be looked at with suspecion- THAT is what seperates some lawyers from goooooooood lawyers;)

brassburnz
08-31-2007, 4:44 PM
When all is said and done, meet me at Starbucks and I'll buy you one of your favorite drinks!

Randy
NRA Life Member

M. Sage
08-31-2007, 4:45 PM
I don't want to jump the gun (so to speak) it could still be legit. And I'm not certain that singling out officers for a formal complaint is the correct way to handle a departmental policy flaw. Like I said, they seemed like nice guys.

A complaint on their record isn't going to address the greater issue of fourth amendment rights and first amendment freedoms. They conducted themselves courteously and politely and that does count for a lot. Its a systemic problem, and I don't fault the responding officers if they were ordered to perform the search without the warrant. (its the one issuing the orders and the policy itself which should be reformed)


I agree with the first part, because all the details aren't out. There might still have been a warrant, we'll have to wait and see.

I disagree with the second part. An officer who violates, blatantly, 4A rights - department policy or not - is completely liable and needs to be held just as accountable as his/her department.

I don't remember where it is, but someone posted a court decision here that specifically stated that an anonymous "person with a gun" report is not probable cause for a search.

Either way, if a police officer violates your rights, for any reason, they need to be held accountable. Though, depending on how the warrant thing works out, I'd say that the party to lay most of this on is whoever filed the report.

Creeping Incrementalism
08-31-2007, 4:49 PM
Thanks for the posts and updates, AJAX, we're all eagerly awaiting this supposed warrant. Are you going to post about this on THR? I could do it for you--cut and paste your posts into a single one--if you're busy.

Goes to show all the fun you can have afterwords by refusing consent to search at the time, even if you know the cops are gonna search you anyway.

Satex
08-31-2007, 6:05 PM
Sit tight, wait the ten days and lets hold off on speculation. It could still be legit, I'm beginning to have doubts, but innocent until proven guilty applies to everyone equally.

You are aware of the fact that the 10 day period is intentional to let you "chill". They are counting on you not wanting to take action after you had time to chill - right?

pnkssbtz
08-31-2007, 6:12 PM
Hopefully one of the LEO's could chime in on how police reports arehandled...

Mr. Ed
08-31-2007, 6:55 PM
arrest criminals[/I]; never forget that when you come under their scrutiny.

Firstm I agree...police officers are suppose to arrest criminals, and the police were doing their job. THey were investigating an incident that may be a crime. Sometimes after their investigation, they found out that no crime occurred and they let people go. THat's what happened here. I'm glad to hear the officers were polite in carrying out their job.

second, would this even be an issue if the "suspect" was not a calgunner, and was a gangbanger type, with 18th st" all over his face, and looked like the thug from the ghetto cities we so despise?

Mr. Ed
08-31-2007, 6:59 PM
Hopefully one of the LEO's could chime in on how police reports arehandled...

Also, i tried to get a police report once, and they also told me it takes 7- 10 business days to get the report. THey told me the officer usually has 1-2 days to get the reprot in. Then it takes 1-2 days to get the report approved. then it takes several days bef0re its in the system. Its a bureaucracy after all.

AJAX22
08-31-2007, 7:05 PM
Thanks for the posts and updates, AJAX, we're all eagerly awaiting this supposed warrant. Are you going to post about this on THR? I could do it for you--cut and paste your posts into a single one--if you're busy.

Feel free to cross post this wherever you want, I haven't been on THR much recently so if you think those guys would like to know about this go for it (Since its a CA issue, I just posted it here, although THR is one of the sites I regularly look at while on campus)


You are aware of the fact that the 10 day period is intentional to let you "chill". They are counting on you not wanting to take action after you had time to chill - right?

All waiting periods are for us to 'chill'. Patience is one thing CA gun owners have in abundance ;) I just finished the wait on a couple AR's an AK, a .38 special snubby, a pc4, an ar7, and a partridge in a pear tree. if they think 10 days will keep a CA gun owner from coming back they didn't think it through very well. We are specifically conditioned to automaticaly return 10 24 hour periods later... I just need to remember that I don't need to do a safe handling demonstration to prove that I wont get papercuts from an accidental discharge.

Just don't let up on them because they were "nice and polite to you" as they violated your first and fourth amendment constitutional rights.

I feel that my rights were violated by the person who filed the suspicious person report, the officers who didn't investigate during the 24 hours that they had between learning about it and confronting me about it, and by both the departmental policy which allowed for the search and whomever actually made the decision to go ahead with the search (judge, chief, etc) individual officers are doing a job (a thankless one at times) and to blame them for following the orders of a superior doesn't seem like it would be productive. If these guys get repremanded after going out of their way to be polite and professional it might send the wrong signal. The officers themselves gave all the indications of being exactly the kind of guys we want on the job, they just were operating on bad information and possibly a faulty departmental policy.

When all is said and done, meet me at Starbucks and I'll buy you one of your favorite drinks!

Thanks, I like a tall or grande sugger free vanilla latte, served extra hot. ;)

Either way, if a police officer violates your rights, for any reason, they need to be held accountable. Though, depending on how the warrant thing works out, I'd say that the party to lay most of this on is whoever filed the report.

I agree, but I don't think the responding officers need to be acountable individually, that should be reserved for people who took an active role in setting the event in motion.

If anyone does have info on how police reports and telephonic warrants are typically treated (with regards to the paperwork involved) I could use some education on the subject.

Travis
08-31-2007, 7:30 PM
would this even be an issue if the "suspect" was not a calgunner, and was a gangbanger type, with 18th st" all over his face, and looked like the thug from the ghetto cities we so despise?

+1

I think law abiding gun owners (including myself) get a little defensive from time to time. I can't imagine how things would play out if the police received a tip that included guns and school and they did not investigate. Even if the tip turned out to be false, the failure to investigate would be a media nightmare.

pnkssbtz
08-31-2007, 7:43 PM
I agree, but I don't think the responding officers need to be acountable individually, that should be reserved for people who took an active role in setting the event in motion.

Oh certainly the person who made false claims that resulted in defamation of character (at the very least?) deserves to be confronted.

However if the warrant turns out to have never been obtained, then the officer that went into the classroom to inspect your personal bag has violated the constitution, and that officer most certainly should be personally accountable if this is the case.


P.S. if I ever meet you I definitely will buy you a beer!

Man that was some quick thinking leaving the bag in the classroom like that.

carsonwales
08-31-2007, 7:45 PM
+1

I think law abiding gun owners (including myself) get a little defensive from time to time. I can't imagine how things would play out if the police received a tip that included guns and school and they did not investigate. Even if the tip turned out to be false, the failure to investigate would be a media nightmare.

And what purpose was served in their 'cautious and measured' approach to go to his classroom?

This whole thing reeks of shakedown on vague and unsubstantiated rumor.

The LEO could have had a faculty member simply ask AJAX to go to the deans office after class...and confronted him there.

An undercover LEO could have simply tailed him to his vehicle or outside and then confronted him.

I will bet you there was no warrant...because there was no probable cause.
As tragic as the death of any student is...it pales in comparison to damage we all suffer when we accept these sorts of things as 'reasonable'.

WokMaster1
08-31-2007, 7:47 PM
Firstm I agree...police officers are suppose to arrest criminals, and the police were doing their job. THey were investigating an incident that may be a crime. Sometimes after their investigation, they found out that no crime occurred and they let people go. THat's what happened here. I'm glad to hear the officers were polite in carrying out their job.

second, would this even be an issue if the "suspect" was not a calgunner, and was a gangbanger type, with 18th st" all over his face, and looked like the thug from the ghetto cities we so despise?

I think before anyone of us here can say tofu, the ACLU/LaRaza would have been done serving the banquet so to speak.

For me one the only issues here is the warrant. If it is legit, so be it but if it's not, that's why God invented lawyers.:rolleyes:

The other is the false report, well, that's why God invented Chuck Michel....:D

Wulf
08-31-2007, 8:53 PM
second, would this even be an issue if the "suspect" was not a calgunner, and was a gangbanger type, with 18th st" all over his face, and looked like the thug from the ghetto cities we so despise?

This is what happens when we allow our elected representatives to pass laws that dont have a direct nexus to real harms, or good and evil, etc.

There's nothing inherently evil about going 1 mph faster than the number on a sign, no one is harmed by the simple act of carying a gun onto campus; and going through your back pack wasnt actually traumatic. But we pass these laws on the idea that we can head off a looming evil or harm by placing the restrictions. Along with these laws come the expectation that they will be enforced in the right circumstances against the right kind of people and will be overlooked when enforcement is not appropriate.

That's the premise you enjoin when you pass laws that dont involve direct harms.

swhatb
08-31-2007, 10:07 PM
lot of good info/resources came from this post ;)

MedSpec65
08-31-2007, 11:02 PM
lot of good info/resources came from this post ;)Agreed.

tboyer
08-31-2007, 11:27 PM
I volunteer at a gay community center, and a similar thing
happened to me(it was after all in San Francisco)

bwiese
08-31-2007, 11:46 PM
I volunteer at a gay community center, and a similar thing happened to me(it was after all in San Francisco)

Could you please recount what happened?
Did LE get involved?

wilit
09-01-2007, 8:31 AM
I volunteer at a gay community center, and a similar thing
happened to me(it was after all in San Francisco)

What the heck? You can't just throw out something like that and not give details (unless of course you can't).

M. Sage
09-01-2007, 8:39 AM
I agree, but I don't think the responding officers need to be acountable individually, that should be reserved for people who took an active role in setting the event in motion.

The responding officers, if they searched your backpack without a warrant, knowingly went waaaay over the line, though. I'm not trying to say they need to be held individually responsible no matter what, but what my point was is that if the telephone warrant does turn out to be BS, turn out not to exist, then they should be held responsible as individuals for knowingly crossing the line. Their department should be held responsible for their actions, too, if that's the case. It's painfully obvious that they didn't have strong probable cause to search your backpack. If the warrant doesn't exist........

But, that's all just conjecture at this point, really. You won't know for sure until you get a copy of the report and the warrant.

mecam
09-01-2007, 10:27 AM
What can happen to the LE if they searched your bag without a warrant? A slap on the wrist?

Mute
09-01-2007, 11:40 AM
Sorry to hear about this Ajax. I'm glad everything worked out ok. I personally would find the idiot who made the false report and rake her over the coal legally. This kind of crap has got to stop and we need to start holding people accountable for their stupidity.

Regardless, you need to do what you feel is in your own best interest. If you'd rather just let this die down, I respect that. It's a personal decision.

berto
09-01-2007, 12:30 PM
I agree, but I don't think the responding officers need to be acountable individually, that should be reserved for people who took an active role in setting the event in motion.

Following orders isn't an excuse. They either know the law and how to do their jobs or they don't and need to find new employment.

great job and thanks for fighting the good fight.

M. Sage
09-01-2007, 12:34 PM
What can happen to the LE if they searched your bag without a warrant? A slap on the wrist?

Better than nothing.

Rob P.
09-01-2007, 12:40 PM
What can happen to the LE if they searched your bag without a warrant? A slap on the wrist?

They can lose their life savings and pension plan along with just about everything else they've managed to accumulate along the way. Not to mention the fact that other intimate members of their immediate family will probably disown them shortly thereafter and there's a real possibility of them going to "re-meet" some of those real bad guys they recently sent to prison on more equal footing.

Seriously Ajax, if the LEO on scene didn't have a warrant and they first fetched and then searched your backpack, they deserve everything you can do to them even though they were nice guys and polite. LEO know the rules and being polite isn't a viable excuse for them to break them. Not to mention that it reinforces the unlawful behavior so that the next schmuck they come across gets the same or worse treatment.

So, I'll say it again, GET THAT REPORT and post it for us to
peruse.

wilit
09-01-2007, 12:49 PM
Maybe I missed it in a previous post, but are the LEO's in question actual police officers or campus security? I don't recall seeing that being mentioned.

AJAX22
09-01-2007, 1:05 PM
Maybe I missed it in a previous post, but are the LEO's in question actual police officers or campus security? I don't recall seeing that being mentioned.

Santa Monica College has a police substation on campus (or slightly off campus) and all 'security personell' are actuall law enforcement officers. These were real police not rent-a-cops.

tboyer
09-01-2007, 9:26 PM
I volunteer at a gay community center, and a similar thing
happened to me(it was after all in San Francisco)



Not much to say, I volunteer in a computer lab, and a user was
listening to audio, which is against policy.
When I told him he had to turn it off, he said that he was not
afraid of my handgun and would be waiting for me outside.
Iíve been told that it is rumored that Iím armed, probable because
Iím the spokes person for the San Francisco Pink Pistols.
Well the guy called 911 and stated that I threatened him with
a handgun, well eight cops showed up and patted me down,
then witness told them that the guy had stated that he was going
to be waiting for me outside. So the police handcuffed him, and
took him away for 72 hours of observation, I wonder what would
have happened if the guy stated that I had threatened him with a
knife, and the police found my penknife

oaklander
09-01-2007, 9:40 PM
Glad he's the one that got busted - sounds like a real 5150!!!

Not much to say, I volunteer in a computer lab, and a user was
listening to audio, which is against policy.
When I told him he had to turn it off, he said that he was not
afraid of my handgun and would be waiting for me outside.
Iíve been told that it is rumored that Iím armed, probable because
Iím the spokes person for the San Francisco Pink Pistols.
Well the guy called 911 and stated that I threatened him with
a handgun, well eight cops showed up and patted me down,
then witness told them that the guy had stated that he was going
to be waiting for me outside. So the police handcuffed him, and
took him away for 72 hours of observation, I wonder what would
have happened if the guy stated that I had threatened him with a
knife, and the police found my penknife

LAK Supply
09-01-2007, 9:42 PM
Pink Pistols huh? Do you know Janalee?


Not much to say, I volunteer in a computer lab, and a user was
listening to audio, which is against policy.
When I told him he had to turn it off, he said that he was not
afraid of my handgun and would be waiting for me outside.
Iíve been told that it is rumored that Iím armed, probable because
Iím the spokes person for the San Francisco Pink Pistols.
Well the guy called 911 and stated that I threatened him with
a handgun, well eight cops showed up and patted me down,
then witness told them that the guy had stated that he was going
to be waiting for me outside. So the police handcuffed him, and
took him away for 72 hours of observation, I wonder what would
have happened if the guy stated that I had threatened him with a
knife, and the police found my penknife

tboyer
09-01-2007, 10:02 PM
Pink Pistols huh? Do you know Janalee?

Don't know, is Janalee a member of the San Francisco chaptor?
we have about one hundred in San Francisco, there are many
chaptors

carsonwales
09-01-2007, 10:54 PM
Not much to say, I volunteer in a computer lab, and a user was
listening to audio, which is against policy.
When I told him he had to turn it off, he said that he was not
afraid of my handgun and would be waiting for me outside.
Iíve been told that it is rumored that Iím armed, probable because
Iím the spokes person for the San Francisco Pink Pistols.
Well the guy called 911 and stated that I threatened him with
a handgun, well eight cops showed up and patted me down,
then witness told them that the guy had stated that he was going
to be waiting for me outside. So the police handcuffed him, and
took him away for 72 hours of observation, I wonder what would
have happened if the guy stated that I had threatened him with a
knife, and the police found my penknife

I am curious....if you had 'been a member' of the NRA, instead of the 'Pink Pistols'...would the incident have ended the same way?

LAK Supply
09-02-2007, 12:11 AM
Don't know, is Janalee a member of the San Francisco chaptor?
we have about one hundred in San Francisco, there are many
chaptors

Nope, she's the founder of WAGC..... out of Utah..... she's done a lot of work with the PP. She was also the one behind the push for guns on campus for teachers/officials in Utah. Great lady.....

socalguns
09-02-2007, 1:04 AM
in california, even rent-a-cops are peace-officers (or at least they get peace-officer training)

Dr. Peter Venkman
09-02-2007, 1:48 AM
What a sad state of affairs. I suppose I was in a similar situation but a very different outcome.

About four classmates of mine last semester (all female) saw that I was browsing through CalGuns and was looking at my rifle collection.

"Are those yours?"

"Yeah."

During class (I was online during a break), somehow during the presentation (open discussion) something got mentioned about being safe or "something happening". The group of girls chimed in, pointed at me, and told my instructor (A pro-gun San Jose PD Sergeant) that "we'll go with him, he has the guns!"

That made me blush a bit. :D

rkt88edmo
09-02-2007, 11:34 AM
I wonder what would
have happened if the guy stated that I had threatened him with a
knife, and the police found my penknife

That is a bit of a troublesome thought.

eta34
09-02-2007, 1:15 PM
in california, even rent-a-cops are peace-officers (or at least they get peace-officer training)

No, not true. And no, getting your "guard card" is not police training.

CSDGuy
09-02-2007, 7:09 PM
in california, even rent-a-cops are peace-officers (or at least they get peace-officer training)

Security Guards do not get the same training as peace officers and are not considered peace officers. They are not trained through California POST. Their training is approved by the BSIS...

Piper
09-02-2007, 8:46 PM
in california, even rent-a-cops are peace-officers (or at least they get peace-officer training)

Oooooo how many ways can I say this is sooooo wrong. Private security are not peace officers. But private security, just like private citizens can arrest under 837 PC.

The problem with private security getting training under PC832 is that they try and act like police after that and then they get themselves into trouble. Sorry, they're not peace officers, never have, probably never will.

Hoop
09-02-2007, 9:02 PM
private security getting training under PC832

Yeap, PC832 doesn't make you a cop, it just makes rent-a-cops think they are real cops.

Like one of the rent-a-cops in my community chasing after people on the highway with his S10 :p

WokMaster1
09-02-2007, 9:07 PM
Oooooo how many ways can I say this is sooooo wrong. Private security are not peace officers. But private security, just like private citizens can arrest under 837 PC.

The problem with private security getting training under PC832 is that they try and act like police after that and then they get themselves into trouble. Sorry, they're not peace officers, never have, probably never will.

Piper, it really depends on who you talk to.Private security or tacticool mall ninjas.:smilielol5:

BTW, I just saw an overweight mall ninja at a gas station all decked out in tactical urban camo, body armor with a tactical vest (AGENT Public Safety Officer tag), flex cuffs, OC spray, collapsible baton, camelbak, Motorola FRS radio, tactical half gloves, Hi Tec boots & the cherry on the icing.......(drum roll) Taurus PT-22 pistol on his belt.

Oh, he drives a Chevy Caprice with white LED lights, Star emblem with Security on the doors & Emergency dial 911 stickers.

:nuts:

LAK Supply
09-02-2007, 9:13 PM
:shuriken: :94: :ninja: :clap:

How 'bout those of us that qualify as both?! :D

CSDGuy
09-02-2007, 9:20 PM
Oooooo how many ways can I say this is sooooo wrong. Private security are not peace officers. But private security, just like private citizens can arrest under 837 PC.

The problem with private security getting training under PC832 is that they try and act like police after that and then they get themselves into trouble. Sorry, they're not peace officers, never have, probably never will.

Yep. They're subject to the same limitations that the public is under PC 837...

You'd probably be amazed what IS possible under the right circumstances and PC 832... but it ISN'T private security. :D

No, I won't elaborate...

Patriot
09-02-2007, 11:08 PM
Piper, it really depends on who you talk to.Private security or tacticool mall ninjas.:smilielol5:

BTW, I just saw an overweight mall ninja at a gas station all decked out in tactical urban camo, body armor with a tactical vest (AGENT Public Safety Officer tag), flex cuffs, OC spray, collapsible baton, camelbak, Motorola FRS radio, tactical half gloves, Hi Tec boots & the cherry on the icing.......(drum roll) Taurus PT-22 pistol on his belt.

Oh, he drives a Chevy Caprice with white LED lights, Star emblem with Security on the doors & Emergency dial 911 stickers.

:nuts:

Aren't those very questionable or illegal for those without a LE exemption or do private security get a pass as well?

FreedomIsNotFree
09-02-2007, 11:10 PM
You'd probably be amazed what IS possible under the right circumstances and PC 832... but it ISN'T private security. :D

No, I won't elaborate...

Well, who asked you to?

hitnrun
09-03-2007, 6:54 AM
Aren't those very questionable or illegal for those without a LE exemption or do private security get a pass as well?

Ask, and ye shall receive...

12002 PC: (a) Nothing in this chapter prohibits police officers,
special police officers, peace officers, or law enforcement officers
from carrying any wooden club, baton, or any equipment authorized for
the enforcement of law or ordinance in any city or county.
(b) Nothing in this chapter prohibits a uniformed security guard,
regularly employed and compensated by a person engaged in any lawful
business, while actually employed and engaged in protecting and
preserving property or life within the scope of his or her
employment, from carrying any wooden club or baton if the uniformed
security guard has satisfactorily completed a course of instruction
certified by the Department of Consumer Affairs in the carrying and
use of the club or baton. The training institution certified by the
Department of Consumer Affairs to present this course, whether public
or private, is authorized to charge a fee covering the cost of the
training.
(c) The Department of Consumer Affairs, in cooperation with the
Commission on Peace Officer Standards and Training, shall develop
standards for a course in the carrying and use of the club or baton.

(d) Any uniformed security guard who successfully completes a
course of instruction under this section is entitled to receive a
permit to carry and use a club or baton within the scope of his or
her employment, issued by the Department of Consumer Affairs. The
department may authorize certified training institutions to issue
permits to carry and use a club or baton. A fee in the amount
provided by law shall be charged by the Department of Consumer
Affairs to offset the costs incurred by the department in course
certification, quality control activities associated with the course,
and issuance of the permit.
(e) Any person who has received a permit or certificate which
indicates satisfactory completion of a club or baton training course
approved by the Commission on Peace Officer Standards and Training
prior to January 1, 1983, shall not be required to obtain a baton or
club permit or complete a course certified by the Department of
Consumer Affairs.
(f) Any person employed as a county sheriff's or police security
officer, as defined in Section 831.4, shall not be required to obtain
a club or baton permit or to complete a course certified by the
Department of Consumer Affairs in the carrying and use of a club or
baton, provided that the person completes a course approved by the
Commission on Peace Officer Standards and Training in the carrying
and use of the club or baton, within 90 days of employment.
(g) Nothing in this chapter prohibits an animal control officer,
as described in Section 830.9, from carrying any wooden club or baton
if the animal control officer has satisfactorily completed a course
of instruction certified by the Department of Consumer Affairs in the
carrying and use of the club or baton. The training institution
certified by the Department of Consumer Affairs to present this
course, whether public or private, is authorized to charge a fee
covering the cost of the training.

stator
09-03-2007, 8:31 AM
What can happen to the LE if they searched your bag without a warrant? A slap on the wrist?

An all expenses paid education in California's state university system. That is an easy settlement to obtain as we, the taxpayers, keep a fund for this.

Liberty1
09-03-2007, 11:53 AM
This is a big issue. I'd get an attorney on it now. Get the official requests for information in now that they know you're asking for copies of information. I don't think they got a warrant and will now try to cover their backs.

wutzu
09-03-2007, 3:19 PM
Thank you all for the comments, reading them has helped me relax considerably.

I left my backpack in the classroom when escorted outside specifically to avoid its contents being subject to terry, it was never within the 'lunge' area until the officers returned it to me.

Thinking back on yesterdays browsing/posting it is possible that what was seen was a comment I sent to Fox news after reading this thread:

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=67519

it was basically the standard RKBA argument, only the law abiding will be disarmed.... police can not possibly have a response time which will be fast enough to prevent violence.... 2A right... etc. and while it was strongly worded, It was not threatening in any way.

Electronic monitoring is a possibility, It seems that they would have better things to do than monitor me but hey its a brave new world out there.

will they just give me a copy of the police report and warrant along with any other documents associated with my investigation? It's my first time as a suspect, My other two run ins with the law were when my car was stolen, and when I was hospitalized for a motorcycle accident. Is it the same procedure for requesting the documents? Is there a way to do it through the mail so I don't have to waste time while I'm at school?

I would like to minimize my contact with beurocratcy if possible.

SO.
AWESOME.

Dr. Peter Venkman
09-03-2007, 3:39 PM
Ask, and ye shall receive...

The thing is though that guy was at a gas station from what he posted. I believe I've read you can only carry at your work and you can't transport it in between on your person wherever you go.

Wulf
09-03-2007, 3:48 PM
An all expenses paid education in California's state university system. That is an easy settlement to obtain as we, the taxpayers, keep a fund for this.

If you really want to turn the screws demand a full ride to UC instead of CSU. :26:

CSDGuy
09-03-2007, 3:51 PM
The thing is though that guy was at a gas station from what he posted. I believe I've read you can only carry at your work and you can't transport it in between on your person wherever you go.

He very well may have been on the clock at the time. Some security companies have guards that do a roving/mobile patrol.

Yes, a security guard with the appropriate certificates from the BSIS can carry that stuff essentially directly to/from work. It might be OK if the security guard needs to get food (like drive-thru) or gas or something like that, but to go out to dinner directly after work in uniform/gear... probably not so legal.

metalhead357
09-03-2007, 4:09 PM
......but to go out to dinner directly after work in uniform/gear... probably not so legal.


twood be if it were with the boss or is 'on assignment' and in some capacity representing the business.....but yeah, the general sit down meal I think would have to be played out in front of a jury:cool:

Liberty1
09-03-2007, 7:46 PM
dupl.

Liberty1
09-03-2007, 7:47 PM
...

Liberty1
09-03-2007, 7:48 PM
I believe I've read you can only carry at your work and you can't transport it in between on your person wherever you go.

Use this exemption:

12026.1. (a) Section 12025 shall not be construed to prohibit any
citizen of the United States over the age of 18 years who resides or
is temporarily within this state, and who is not within the excepted
classes prescribed by Section 12021 or 12021.1 of this code or
Section 8100 or 8103 of the Welfare and Institutions Code, from
transporting or carrying any pistol, revolver, or other firearm
capable of being concealed upon the person, provided that the
following applies to the firearm:
(1) The firearm is within a motor vehicle and it is locked in the
vehicle's trunk or in a locked container in the vehicle other than
the utility or glove compartment.
(2) The firearm is carried by the person directly to or from any
motor vehicle for any lawful purpose and, while carrying the firearm,
the firearm is contained within a locked container.
(b) The provisions of this section do not prohibit or limit the
otherwise lawful carrying or transportation of any pistol, revolver,
or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person in
accordance with this chapter.
(c) As used in this section, "locked container" means a secure
container which is fully enclosed and locked by a padlock, key lock,
combination lock, or similar locking device.

Librarian
09-03-2007, 8:05 PM
Use this exemption:

12026.1. (a) Section 12025 shall not be construed to prohibit any
citizen of the United States over the age of 18 years who resides or
is temporarily within this state, and who is not within the excepted
classes prescribed by Section 12021 or 12021.1 of this code or
Section 8100 or 8103 of the Welfare and Institutions Code, from
transporting or carrying any pistol, revolver, or other firearm
capable of being concealed upon the person, provided that the
following applies to the firearm:
(1) The firearm is within a motor vehicle and it is locked in the
vehicle's trunk or in a locked container in the vehicle other than
the utility or glove compartment.
(2) The firearm is carried by the person directly to or from any
motor vehicle for any lawful purpose and, while carrying the firearm,
the firearm is contained within a locked container.
(b) The provisions of this section do not prohibit or limit the
otherwise lawful carrying or transportation of any pistol, revolver,
or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person in
accordance with this chapter.
(c) As used in this section, "locked container" means a secure
container which is fully enclosed and locked by a padlock, key lock,
combination lock, or similar locking device.OK. Now explain the meaning of 12026.2. It's there - it has to mean something.

Liberty1
09-04-2007, 8:24 PM
OK. Now explain the meaning of 12026.2. It's there - it has to mean something.

Ya, just what it says.

Pretend I listed .2a and you asked me to explain .1a. I asked this at the academy and was told they are separate exemptions. Pick one to use. I guess we would need to read the legislative history to see which one came first. But that wouldn't still negate the existence of the other. The pro camp got to create one and the antis got to create one?

Try this - .1a involves car travel and .2a is directed more toward "transportation" (on foot, public transport perhaps)...I don't know? I'll go read it again. I don't see .2a as restricting the exemptions in .1a however. For those who think this is a "gray area" I say it is an exemption and since 12025a first prohibits ALL concealed possession and then grants exemptions for home CC (which we all claim)... I say use the exemptions as listed to be safer at school, work, etc... and have tmllp on your wifes cell phone.

And never consent to searches.

Liberty1
09-04-2007, 8:35 PM
Just read it again.

12026.2 even says it doesn't limit other carrying in accordance with...so 12026.1a stands as written.

12026.2 (c) This section does not prohibit or limit the otherwise lawful
carrying or transportation of any pistol, revolver, or other firearm
capable of being concealed upon the person in accordance with this
chapter.

Even 626.9 has an exemption for locked container carry. Note: I'm not factoring 12031 into the discussion.

Librarian
09-04-2007, 9:29 PM
Just read it again.

12026.2 even says it doesn't limit other carrying in accordance with...so 12026.1a stands as written.

12026.2 (c) This section does not prohibit or limit the otherwise lawful
carrying or transportation of any pistol, revolver, or other firearm
capable of being concealed upon the person in accordance with this
chapter.

Even 626.9 has an exemption for locked container carry. Note: I'm not factoring 12031 into the discussion.

I read it this way:
12025 defines the crime of carrying a concealed firearm.

12026 says 12025 does not apply in your own home.

12026.1 describes how a non LEO, non-CCW holder can transport a concealable weapon, concealed (in a case or car trunk) without getting arrested for violating 12025. LEOs and a few others are covered in 12027.

12026.2 came about because of this (imaginary) exchange:
Ed:Hey, Harry?
Harry: Yeah, Ed?
Ed: You realize 12026.1 lets people carry all the time, right?
Harry: No kiddin? Can't have that. Let's write sumpin'.

So 12026.2 limits the places you can carry while following the requirements of 12026.1, and 12026.2(c) is the place where they thought they'd be magnanimous, and acknowledge that the list our betters wrote down probably didn't include every conceivably legal reason or place to transport a concealable weapon - the whole PC12000 chapter applies. (That is, BTW, actual legal opinion, from a certain famous California gun litigator, often mentioned on the board with some displeasure. I heard it myself, in my NRA Personal Protection class.)

The guiding principle has to be The legislature does not want the peasants carrying guns around. If you think you need a loophole, the Legislature intends that what you want should be illegal.

Proceeding on any other basis without specific legal advice from a licensed practitioner is, in my opinion, unwise.

I've said in other threads that I can't find any case law in which someone was arrested for violating 12025 based on not following the limits in 12026.2. Maybe that's all handled and completed in lower courts; maybe it almost never happens. The 12025 violations I do see are usually associated with felon in possession charges, and they have no legal places they can have or transport guns. So, I can't even guess the risk of riding around with a handgun locked in your trunk all the time.

On the other hand, riding around with a non-concealable firearm is, by everything I can see, just fine (unless you go into a prohibited area).

In short,
Leave the Glock.

Take the Benelli.

hoffmang
09-04-2007, 10:06 PM
In short,
Leave the Glock.

Take the Benelli.

Now that's funny!

-Gene

metalhead357
09-04-2007, 10:06 PM
In short,
Leave the Glock.


Take the Benelli.


LOL! reminds me about the rules to a gunfight;)

Liberty1
09-04-2007, 10:12 PM
12026.2 came about because of this (imaginary) exchange:
Ed:Hey, Harry?
Harry: Yeah, Ed?
Ed: You realize 12026.1 lets people carry all the time, right?
Harry: No kiddin? Can't have that. Let's write sumpin'.


Add:

Ed:Hey, Harry?
Harry: What now?
Ed: We forgot to delete .1a
Harry: :(

tombinghamthegreat
09-04-2007, 10:44 PM
Wow interesting story. When I was in middle school i looked up guns (mostly airsoft) so no one made a big deal. I am on nra site at college alot and leave it on the computer after i am done just for people to see. Some people act wierd when i tell them that i own guns others start telling me about what guns they own. I would not be suprised if this happens to me. A good friend is no longer my friend because i am too pro gun and he is a hardcore liberal. He is the type that would report me to the school.

stator
09-05-2007, 8:18 AM
If you really want to turn the screws demand a full ride to UC instead of CSU. :26:

I do not know if such a fund exists for the UC system, but it probably does. Usually, settlements have a free-ride for JC and CSU systems good for X amount of years. I believe Rodney King had one in addition to his $3.8M jury award.

A very close friend is a teacher in the system who is discouraged with such students because they are not serious other than collecting the settlement.

AJAX22
09-05-2007, 8:52 AM
I just wanted to post from the computer lab again (no point in living in fear of those who disagree with me politically)

I'm currently sitting one row back from the station where I was posting from last week. I'll post a pic of the station where I was at before (I brought a camera), there are only four stations with a view of where I was working and you would have to be REALLY looking to view the text of what I was typing.

I keep getting nervous looks from the girl who is seated where I was last week (I'm pretty tuned in to furtive glances and suspicious behavior and looking behind you at a guy who is not paying you any attention out of the corner of your eye with jerky movements isn't normal)

No one else is even looking at me, we are all being held spellbound with a lecture on powerpoint.

http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u115/Ratduster77/DCP_0187.jpg
http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u115/Ratduster77/DCP_0189.jpg
http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u115/Ratduster77/DCP_0190.jpg


this is the terminal that I was at, the terminal in front of me with the girl in the white headband is the one I was at.

davedog665
09-05-2007, 9:31 AM
haha Yo ajax me being a fellow gun enthusis luv day dreaming about guns in class or future upgrades to guns i legally own. But in this crazy world i believe your only asking for trouble pulling up any web pages dealing with guns or having pictures of guns. while during a lecture haha As you found out people can def. take this the wrong way. i wouldn't be to surprised if your schools internet policy bans use of said web sites.

I am guilty as well looking at calguns and various websites at work. Just be mindful who is watching that girl behind you is prob. just as bored as you and is reading every word ..lol

mth
09-05-2007, 9:41 AM
I keep getting nervous looks from the girl who is seated where I was last week (I'm pretty tuned in to furtive glances and suspicious behavior and looking behind you at a guy who is not paying you any attention out of the corner of your eye with jerky movements isn't normal)
She likes you; ask her out! To the range! :43:



I have to think it was a person there that reported you. It isn't common practice for higher educational institutions to watch internet traffic for "sensitive topics". I can tell you with certainty that most of the UCs don't, and I'm willing to say that it's extremely unlikely any of them do. It's also not against policy at UCs to use anonymizing services.

K-12 is an entirely different matter however. I sure wouldn't like to be a grade school student with an interest in firearms these days.

AJAX22
09-05-2007, 9:48 AM
I'm married and my wife is Wayyyyyy more attractive.

I'm prety certain that I'm not violating the computer use policy for SMC by educating myself about the 2A and related legal issues. here is the computer use policy.

SMC Student Computer Use Policy

The college is providing email and computer access to all students to support your instructional, cultural, and research activities associated with the courses that you are currently enrolled in. By accepting this policy, you agree to the general provisions of all responsible computing policies adopted by the College. Users also agree to follow acceptable use policies established by individual computing labs and network systems and to obey directives issued by authorized College personnel supervising such labs and systems. The activities associated with your computer use need to follow the broad principles established in the Santa Monica College Responsible Computer Use policy. They include carrying out SMC course assignments and activities requiring access to and use of electronic mail and other campus computing facilities and systems. Computing is a privilege to all students at Santa Monica College. As such, you are held accountable for your actions as a condition of continued membership in the College community. By using your account, you acknowledge and agree to abide and conform to the following responsibilities:

SMC computers and networks are to be used primarily for college-related research, instruction, learning, distribution of scholarly information, and administrative activities;

Users shall not attempt to modify any system or network or attempt to crash or hack into college systems. They shall not tamper with any software protections or restrictions placed on computer applications or files. Unless properly authorized, users shall not attempt to access restricted portions of any operating system or security software. Nor shall users attempt to remove existing software or add their own personal software to college computers and systems unless properly authorized;

Users shall use only their own designated computer accounts. Accounts are non- transferable: users shall not use another individual's ID, password or account. Users should respect the privacy and personal rights of others and not access or copy another user's email, data or other files without permission;
Users are responsible for their own computer account(s). They should take precautions against others obtaining access to their use;

Users are responsible for using software and electronic materials in accordance with copyright and licensing restrictions and applicable college policies. Individuals using SMC's computing resources are required to abide by all applicable copyright laws and licenses. Both College policies and the law expressly prohibit the copying of software that has not been placed in the public domain and distributed as "freeware " and use appropriate precaution to protect their own privacy. "Shareware " users are expected to abide by the requirements of the Shareware agreement. SMC equipment may not be used to violate copyright laws or license agreements. No one may inspect, change, copy or distribute proprietary data, programs, files, disks or software without the proper authority;
Users should remember that information distributed on SMC computers and networks uses college resources and thus represents SMC and not just an individual. Even with appropriate disclaimers, the College is represented by its students, faculty and staff, and so appropriate decorum is warranted;

The College will honor the privacy of individual users, but reserves the right to monitor communications and/or usage when there is just cause, e.g. to remove or compress inappropriate or large files, to investigate user directories and files which may cause or be affected by a system problem;

Due to the open and decentralized design of the Internet and networked computer systems in general, SMC cannot protect individuals against the receipt of material that may be offensive to them Those who use electronic computing on campus are warned that they may receive material that is offensive to them. Likewise, individuals who use email or those who make information about themselves public on the Internet should know that SMC cannot protect them from invasions of privacy.

SMC reserves the right to terminate all accounts and files associated with students who are no longer currently enrolled and taking classes.

Because access to email and computing facilities and systems is a privilege, violation of responsible computer use policies will have consequences. Specifically,

Authorized computer system supervisors may resolve informally unintentional or isolated violations of use policies through email or face-to-face discussion and education with the user or users concerned.
However, repeated violations or misconduct can result in the temporary or permanent loss of computer access privileges or the modification of those privileges. Violations include but are not limited to unauthorized use of computer resources, attempts to steal passwords or data, unauthorized use or copying of licensed software, harassing communication or threatening behavior. Policy violations by students will be handled in accordance with the disciplinary processes described in the Student Code of Conduct

Librarian
09-05-2007, 12:43 PM
Add:

Ed:Hey, Harry?
Harry: What now?
Ed: We forgot to delete .1a
Harry: :(

Harry: Not necessary - the peasants we allow to own handguns need some legal way to move the durned things around - we can 'rest them for other stuff later - .2 just makes it harder, the way it should be.

More formally, the phrase 'in accordance with this chapter' means ALL of 12000-12999.999 applies - including 12026.2 to 12026.1.

Skip the problem (however minuscule it may be in practice) - carry a long gun.

metalhead357
09-05-2007, 5:32 PM
I'm married and my wife is Wayyyyyy more attractive.

I'm prety certain that I'm not violating the computer use policy for SMC by educating myself about the 2A and related legal issues. here is the computer use policy.


I woulda said the same in "she hot fer' ya' " but since yer' married....

But yep; I dont see jack in the posted regs of yours..........

saki302
09-06-2007, 5:03 AM
If you had any idea what the CS majors were watching and looking at in the back of the class on our laptops, this is tame by comparison :D hahahaha

I also did the calguns and 1919a4.com thing in class.

-Dave

haha Yo ajax me being a fellow gun enthusis luv day dreaming about guns in class or future upgrades to guns i legally own. But in this crazy world i believe your only asking for trouble pulling up any web pages dealing with guns or having pictures of guns. while during a lecture haha As you found out people can def. take this the wrong way. i wouldn't be to surprised if your schools internet policy bans use of said web sites.

ibanezfoo
09-06-2007, 10:32 AM
I wonder how long before our kids are Pioneers, reporting parents for anti-government / anti-PC speech, and having the jack booted thugs pulling us from out places of education, work, and homes and threatening us or carting us off to camps for re-education. Ugh... this has to stop. There needs to be penalties for those making false accusations on others and wasting public time and money, not to mention messing with peoples' lives over what? Political beliefs? This is nonsense. I cannot honestly believe that people are "scared" of honest people with guns, they are just being dramatic.

-Bryan

Dr. Peter Venkman
09-06-2007, 10:50 AM
AJAX,

Your mission, if you choose to accept it, is to take a photo featuring the facial features of the girl in front of you.

This post will terminate when moderated.

pnkssbtz
09-06-2007, 1:27 PM
I'm married and my wife is Wayyyyyy more attractive.

Pics plz! :D

AJAX22
09-06-2007, 3:07 PM
My house isn't that messy usually, and these aren't the best pics I have of her, but its all I have on photobucket and it should give you an idea

http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u115/Ratduster77/DCP_0004.jpg

http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u115/Ratduster77/DCP_0001.jpg

not that its off topic or anything :rolleyes:

I should be getting the report tomorrow morning.

N6ATF
09-06-2007, 3:22 PM
Should have sent them the first picture... you would have had that report the day after the incident!

Scarecrow Repair
09-06-2007, 3:34 PM
I wonder how long before our kids are Pioneers, reporting parents for anti-government / anti-PC speech

DARE encourages kids to snoop on their parents and report any suspicious activity. Sure, they "only" want to track down druggies, but does anyone honestly think elementary school kids are expert witnesses to base search warrants on, and does anybody like the idea of encouraging kids to snoop their parents?

pnkssbtz
09-06-2007, 4:22 PM
My house isn't that messy usually, and these aren't the best pics I have of her, but its all I have on photobucket and it should give you an idea


not that its off topic or anything :rolleyes:

I should be getting the report tomorrow morning.

Jesus Cristos! You are right about your wife! :D

metalhead357
09-06-2007, 4:56 PM
NICE looking Wife! But THAT is all I'll say 'fore you turn me in to MY wife;)

AJAX22
09-07-2007, 9:09 AM
I went in to pick up the report today.

It had been almost exactly 9 24 hour periods since the report was filed, so I had figured that it should be available. (they had told me to come back in 7-10 days and 9 days seems to be plenty.

Well guess what.... I show up today and they don't want to give me the report. In the words of the people in the back room "He's not getting it today" I don't know if they think I'm deaf or stupid, but a sickly sweet smile doesn't cover up the feeling of being jerked around. And it doesn't mean that I can't hear the conversations you're having a few yards away from me (the glass is bulletproof, not soundproof)

Apparently it should be ready on the 12th (mind you this was originally filed last wednesday the 29th. Apparently I have to wait 10 SCHOOL days (the receptionists words not mine) for a copy of the report....

If I show up on wednesday (TWO WEEKS after the report was initiated) and find out that I have to wait an extra day because a federal holiday occurred during my "10 school day" wait I believe I will be mildly upset.

I made a special trip to school today to get the report (I don't have class on friday) so I'm not happy about this turn of events.

I remained polite and didn't make waves, but its getting ridiculous.

Does anyone know if it is actually 7-10 business days you have to wait for a report or 7-10 24 hour periods? I'd like to know if I am just being paranoid or if I'm getting jerked around. (you think that they'd have mentioned it to me when they explained it the first time if I had to wait a full 10 business days)

Fjold
09-07-2007, 9:39 AM
I made a bet with myself that you would get jerked around when you went to pick up the report.

glockman19
09-07-2007, 10:48 AM
sounds like they're giving you a line.

I wonder what will be blacked out "due to security reasons"?

I'd surely reconsider going to another local college for my undergraduate studdies.

Wulf
09-07-2007, 11:34 AM
When she told you 10 school days, you should have nailed down precisely the date and time you would return for the report, get her to agree that that date was acceptable, jot out a quick contact report (date, time, location, who present, what discussed, etc), and then told her you would also like her to copy down the pertinent pages from the policy and procedures manual that she says mandates "school-days". It also wouldn't hurt to ask her who her supervisor is, in advance, just so you can look up the number and be prepared to call that person immediately if she stiffs you on the pickup appointment.

I've found that when dealing in an adversarial fashion with bureaucrats, they roll over a lot quicker when they see you preparing for the next step and the step after that before the current step is played out.

Rob P.
09-07-2007, 11:39 AM
I'd say just wait and then give it one more day. It doesn't hurt you that you have to wait 2 weeks or so to get the report. The statute is a year long so there's plenty of time for now.

artherd
09-07-2007, 6:50 PM
"he's not getting it today". You're absolutely being jerked around, the reason is the only aspect in debate. (wether the guy just would have had to stay late to properly review it, or wether there are facts that still need to be fabricated...)

I would come in and serve them with a written request for a copy of the report. I would use methods consistant with rules of service of process if possible/feasable.

If you have any guff, have them give you a written promise as to when you may pick up the report, and jot down whom you are speaking to, their supervisor, date time others present, etc.

In short, act like a COP to the cops :D

CavTrooper
09-07-2007, 7:01 PM
In short, act like a COP to the cops :D

I dont think beating them over the head and violating them with a nightstick will get him anywhere.:p

kidding.

pnkssbtz
09-07-2007, 7:54 PM
I dont think beating them over the head and violating them with a nightstick will get him anywhere.:p

kidding.

Actually, I beg to differ, I think it would get you "somewhere" fast :chris:

metalhead357
09-07-2007, 7:57 PM
Actually, I beg to differ, I think it would get you "somewhere" fast :chris:


LOL! Give a WHOLE new meaning to cop beatings:chris: DOH! YOU try...I like my freedom:p ((JUST kidding...NOT condoning illegal beahvior......))

Slowshooter
09-07-2007, 8:45 PM
Time to get a lawyer on stand by...a bit extreme, but it is the way to go.:cool:

Liberty1
09-08-2007, 2:32 PM
Your rights are being violated again. Are you going to take it? If so, just walk away.

If not, consult with an attorney and stick it to them! I don't think they got a warrant to search your stuff. I'd be surprised if there was a report too. Nobody was arrested and nothing was seized. But maybe they operate differently then some departments. There will be computer records of the "incident" but this will consist of dispatch information. If they used a cell phone to call a judge for a "telephonic" warrant (I'm not familiar with these as I thought it was to be done by fax so there is a hard copy) then there will be numbers on their cell bill.

All things that can be PRAed or subpoenaed.

Talk with an attorney!

But basicly, you will say you refused consent and 6 officers are going to say you did consent(as I doubt there was a warrant). How far is that law suit going to get?

G17GUY
09-10-2007, 6:44 PM
whats up with this?:cool2:

hoffmang
09-10-2007, 6:55 PM
Hang on gents.

Let our OP go back one more time before we jump to conclusions. Courts want to see that you but up with the bureaucrat's BS before you start causing broader trouble.

-Gene

jdberger
09-10-2007, 9:02 PM
I wonder where a FOIA request would get you?

Show up at the appointed time and place, ask for the report (politely), and if they run you around, hand them the FOIA request. You may also want to include a request for information on other "telephonic warrants" that were executed, number of calls based on anonymous sources, their police reports, etc. Essentially, ask for the whole filing cabinet in the back office.

Tell them you have a copy vendor that can be there in an hour. :)

tango-52
09-10-2007, 9:40 PM
I wonder where a FOIA request would get you?

Show up at the appointed time and place, ask for the report (politely), and if they run you around, hand them the FOIA request. You may also want to include a request for information on other "telephonic warrants" that were executed, number of calls based on anonymous sources, their police reports, etc. Essentially, ask for the whole filing cabinet in the back office.

Tell them you have a copy vendor that can be there in an hour. :)

That won't work. The agency has 10 days to respond to a Public Records Act request (CA version of a FOIA). If they can't make it available in 10 days, they have to tell you why they need more time and how much time it will be. There is no requirement to make the records available on demand. A PRAR is not a search warrant. All PRARs should be done by certifed mail with return receipt. The agency is only required to provide non-confidential information. Information and notes relative to an on-going investigation would be considered confidential. Even if the case is closed, they may still consider investigative notes as confidential. That is when an attorney would become necessary. Be persistent and be specific in your request. If you have seen the other post on PRARs for Stallone's CCW, you will see how you need to be very specific in your wording to avoid giving the agency wiggle room. Good luck.

jdberger
09-11-2007, 10:59 PM
That won't work. The agency has 10 days to respond to a Public Records Act request (CA version of a FOIA). If they can't make it available in 10 days, they have to tell you why they need more time and how much time it will be. There is no requirement to make the records available on demand. A PRAR is not a search warrant. All PRARs should be done by certifed mail with return receipt. The agency is only required to provide non-confidential information. Information and notes relative to an on-going investigation would be considered confidential. Even if the case is closed, they may still consider investigative notes as confidential. That is when an attorney would become necessary. Be persistent and be specific in your request. If you have seen the other post on PRARs for Stallone's CCW, you will see how you need to be very specific in your wording to avoid giving the agency wiggle room. Good luck.

Thanks for the info, but I'm not trying to win...Just trying to make them nervous. ............. for now....;)

wheelgunner
09-12-2007, 5:37 AM
AJAX22, What is T.M.?

"I then called my wife and asked her to call T.M. and have them give me a call (I didnít have the phone number on me for some reasonÖ It might have been in my wallet but my wallet was being held onto by one of the officers."

Interesting reading...

tango-52
09-12-2007, 5:40 AM
AJAX22, What is T.M.?

"I then called my wife and asked her to call T.M. and have them give me a call (I didnít have the phone number on me for some reasonÖ It might have been in my wallet but my wallet was being held onto by one of the officers."

Interesting reading...

Trutanich-Michel, LLP. Law firm specializing in firearms issues. See their banner ad at the bottom of the page.

AJAX22
09-12-2007, 5:43 AM
T.M. is short for Trutanich • Michel, LLP

One of the top CA law firms for firearm owners.

Every gun owner in so-cal should have them on speed dial.

I'll try to get the Police Report today.... (fingers crossed for luck) will keep you guys posted.

WokMaster1
09-12-2007, 7:05 AM
LOL! reminds me about the rules to a gunfight;)

Yah! Go ahead & laugh......I'm taking your old Benelli for a ride.......c'mon Maria:D

AJAX22
09-12-2007, 10:42 AM
I picked up the report 45 minuets ago.

No Warrant, No probable cause, and they miss-represented a number of facts on the report.

See for yourself.


http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff250/ratduster777/PoliceReportPrivacyEdit.jpg
http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff250/ratduster777/PoliceReportSecurityEdit.jpg



I'm a bit upset about some of the language used... (as well as the order in which they stated events... by wording the report the way they did, they make it seem like the backpack was covered under terry) "Told him to leave it behind" my ***

ZapThyCat
09-12-2007, 10:54 AM
This country is getting worse and worse...