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View Full Version : Pump action slam fire, NFA?


Junkie
01-07-2013, 7:52 PM
As far as I can tell, a single pull of the trigger and multiple rounds fired means machine gun. However, plenty of 1897s, 1912s, M37s, etc are sold that're capable of multiple shots with the trigger held down.

Can anyone point me towards the law/case law that makes the slide the "trigger"?

Bt Doctur
01-07-2013, 7:57 PM
M37`s always had a sear disconnect.physically operating a slide has nothing to do with "semi-automatic " operation.

Junkie
01-07-2013, 8:04 PM
I thought early M37s could slam fire - meaning pull the trigger, it fires. keep the trigger down, rack the slide, it fires again. Later ones got a disco...

winnre
01-07-2013, 8:05 PM
Cowboy guns do the same.

Bigtwin
01-07-2013, 8:10 PM
Cowboy guns do the same.

Exactly. Just squeezing the trigger and not letting up, while faning the hammer, I don't see how that is a machinegun. Holding the trigger and manipulating the slide is the same.
Both still require manipulation of some sort. Unlike pulling the trigger(and doing nothing else) and having multiple bursts of fire.

Dead*Reckoned
01-07-2013, 8:14 PM
Instead of trying to find case laws that make it legal, can you find any law that makes it illegal? Here's the test. Load 8 rounds, put a round in the chamber, and hold the trigger down. Only one shot will go off. It is not a full auto by definition.

hermosabeach
01-07-2013, 8:18 PM
One pull of the trigger will not make it fire multiple times.

The user needs to manually reload between each shot- cycle the action, run the bolt, run the lever

To answer the question differently-

Why is a Gatling gun with a crank not a machine gun?

But a Gatling gun with an electric motor is a machine gun?

Ron-Solo
01-07-2013, 9:00 PM
LASD's Ithica Model 37 shotguns did not have a trigger disconnect in them, but then again most of them had a 14" or 16" barrel too. Even the later ones with 18" or 20" barrels did not have the disconnect.

That little feature saved my life one night in a gunfight against multiple armed suspects, one of whom had an AK. See avatar for further.

HowardW56
01-07-2013, 9:07 PM
LASD's Ithica Model 37 shotguns did not have a trigger disconnect in them, but then again most of them had a 14" or 16" barrel too. Even the later ones with 18" or 20" barrels did not have the disconnect.

That little feature saved my life one night in a gunfight against multiple armed suspects, one of whom had an AK. See avatar for further.


I still have two Ithaca 37s... They work as advertised, but 00 buck does kick like a mule, they are light....

Munk
01-07-2013, 10:30 PM
A trigger isn't necessarily a small lever that is within the trigger guard. That's just the name given to that part of the gun in common practice and usually in effect as well. A trigger can also be a lever, switch, button, or anything else that when manipulated will cause the gun to fire.

This is another angle of the idea that any kind of multi-fire trigger device or electronic trigger can turn a gun into a machine gun, even if it's not a "trigger" within the trigger guard.

So long as whatever you use to trigger the gun will only fire 1 round for each activation, you aren't likely to have created a machine gun.

ClarenceBoddicker
01-07-2013, 11:12 PM
The ATF gets to decide what the term trigger means. When you slam fire an Ithica, the trigger is the pump. You have to manually pump it for each single shot. When you crank a Gatlin gun, there is a small step or detent in the crank that must be overcome, which then fires a single shot. The ATF ruled Bill York's "sputter gun" a machine gun even though it had no trigger or sear. You loaded a mag & then pulled the bolt back. When you released the bolt, the gun would fire full auto until the mag was empty. I've always wondered what ATF would have done if Bill made another one without the bolt handle or slot. Load a mag & then smack the back of the gun real hard on something solid like a big tree. That would cause the bolt to cycle & the gun would shoot full auto until empty. What would the ATF call the trigger then?

1JimMarch
01-08-2013, 12:18 AM
If you rigged a pump of that sort to rack under gas pressure tapped from the muzzle you could indeed get true full-auto. A lot of people are telling me to tap yet more muzzle gas on Maurice and use it to fan the hammer, and I keep explaining that I'd get full-auto that way:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4XtVldNbO4

F4XtVldNbO4

I suspect that with 9mm+P+ ammo it would actually be possible...but I'm not going to go there. I may be crazy but I'm not stupid.

tyrist
01-08-2013, 2:25 AM
As far as I can tell, a single pull of the trigger and multiple rounds fired means machine gun. However, plenty of 1897s, 1912s, M37s, etc are sold that're capable of multiple shots with the trigger held down.

Can anyone point me towards the law/case law that makes the slide the "trigger"?

If you don't move the slide with the force of your arm then the gun does not fire again whether the trigger is held down or not. So to answer the question it's not a machine gun.

tozan
01-08-2013, 2:30 AM
Winchester model 12's would fire that way too although I must say it is really hard to hit much with the following shots they tend to just go all over the place.