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View Full Version : Why do people keep on asking me to send them Pmag parts kits? There are no pre-ban!!


rsilvers
01-06-2013, 2:01 PM
I am auctioning some PMags and about five people asked me to disassemble them and ship them to a California residence as a legal parts kit.

While I can see doing that with aluminum magazine bodies, springs, and followers as a rebuild kit for old pre-ban aluminum magazines (keeping your original floor-plate), there is no such things as a pre-ban Pmag.

Meaning - as soon as you assemble them, you have illegal contraband. So why waste money on something that you can never legally use?

Do these people not know this, or are they just willing to break the law?

Fern
01-06-2013, 2:04 PM
They can use the parts to repair their legally owned ones, or manufacture them into 10 rounders.

JeepsRcool
01-06-2013, 2:06 PM
They can use the parts to rebuild old mags they posesed before the ban, and there is no limit on the amount of parts they can replace. So they could use the Pmag rebuild kits to rebuild an old mag they poses and use in a featureless build, That would break NO laws.

speleogist
01-06-2013, 2:07 PM
I am auctioning some PMags and about five people asked me to disassemble them and ship them to a California residence as a legal parts kit.

While I can see doing that with aluminum magazine bodies, springs, and followers as a rebuild kit for old pre-ban aluminum magazines (keeping your original floor-plate), there is no such things as a pre-ban Pmag.

Meaning - as soon as you assemble them, you have illegal contraband. So why waste money on something that you can never legally use?

Do these people not know this, or are they just willing to break the law?

You're legally allowed to own magazines that you found on the ground somewhere. If someone went to a range and found a box of Pmags and now those Pmags are older and need to be repaired, they ask you for Pmag repair kits.

ke6guj
01-06-2013, 2:07 PM
I am auctioning some PMags and about five people asked me to disassemble them and ship them to a California residence as a legal parts kit.

While I can see doing that with aluminum magazine bodies, springs, and followers as a rebuild kit for old pre-ban aluminum magazines (keeping your original floor-plate), there is no such things as a pre-ban Pmag.

Meaning - as soon as you assemble them, you have illegal contraband. So why waste money on something that you can never legally use?

Do these people not know this, or are they just willing to break the law?

do you not know that they can use magpul parts to rebuild a "pre-ban" aluminum mag? they start with one large-cap mag and still have one large-cap mag when they are done. the fact that the body might look like a modern mag doesn't make it illegal.

Or, did you not know that they might want to use the parts kit to make a 10-round mag? many vendors used to take 20 and 30-round pmags and pin them to 10-rounds and sell them as 10/20's or 10/30's. But now, most of those vendors can't get inventory to make those conversions, people have to acquire the mag parts themselves to make the 10-round mag.

Fern
01-06-2013, 2:07 PM
The how to turn them into 10/30 thread...

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=120280

tcrpe
01-06-2013, 2:09 PM
We have any case law on these "found" mags?

rsilvers
01-06-2013, 2:09 PM
You obviously cannot repair an aluminum mag with a Pmag as no parts are interchangeable (maybe the spring, but it is cheaper to just buy springs).

But I can see turning them into 10 rounders if it is important to you that they look like 30 rounders (which in my opinion is stupid, but then again, in the 1990s I used to think fake car-phone antennas were stupid, and people did that).

BayAreaScott
01-06-2013, 2:10 PM
Add a limiter to them and presto http://www.rifleoutfit.com/magblock-10-30-magazine-capacity-limiter-for-magpul-30-round-pmag.html

choprzrul
01-06-2013, 2:11 PM
We have any case law on these "found" mags?

Nothing in the PC to generate any such case law.

.

CSACANNONEER
01-06-2013, 2:13 PM
Along with the other answers, there are plenty of people here who can or have been able to legally aquire +10 round mags. Retired LEOs and those who have had High Cap permits in the past are two examples of those who were able to buy +10 round Pmags but, can only get parts to repair them now. Also, many people take their parts kits with them when they go out of state to shoot. They assemble them out of state, use them and disassemble them before returning.

THANK YOU FOR COMING HERE TO ASK A GOOD QUESTION!

thrasherfox
01-06-2013, 2:15 PM
You obviously cannot repair an aluminum mag with a Pmag as no parts are interchangeable (maybe the spring, but it is cheaper to just buy springs).

But I can see turning them into 10 rounders if it is important to you that they look like 30 rounders (which in my opinion is stupid, but then again, in the 1990s I used to think fake car-phone antennas were stupid, and people did that).

Just FYI - I work with military and they like to have 10/30's so when they go to the range they are building muscle memory using a 30 round sized magazine.

It allows them to practice loading, unloading, carrying etc with something more similiar to what they will have in combat.

There is a big differance trying to figure out where you are going to put 30 rounders on your gear vice where you will put 10 rounders. You want to be able to building up your vest having the magazine's properly located for the easiest access. You want to build that muscle memory so you can grab them as quick as possible. But if you dont use the same size it can mess you up when switch to a differant sized magazine


That is one reason I preffer 10/30's.

Plus if I can ever get out of this communist state I can convert them back to normal magazines (providing the anti's dont totally screw us here soon).

dieselpower
01-06-2013, 2:16 PM
You obviously cannot repair an aluminum mag with a Pmag as no parts are interchangeable (maybe the spring, but it is cheaper to just buy springs).

But I can see turning them into 10 rounders if it is important to you that they look like 30 rounders (which in my opinion is stupid, but then again, in the 1990s I used to think fake car-phone antennas were stupid, and people did that).

wrong... A weak spring is the legal starting point to swap every part. While it walks right up to the line of legal / illegal, it doesnt cross it.

as long as you are not assembling a new magazine, you have NOT violated the magazine laws of CA.

dieselpower
01-06-2013, 2:19 PM
Just FYI - I work with military and they like to have 10/30's so when they go to the range they are building muscle memory using a 30 round size magazine.

I allows them to practice loading, unloading, carrying etc with something more similiar to what they will have in combat.

That is one reason I preffer 10/30's.

Plus if I can ever get out of this communist state I can convert them back to normal magazines (providing the anti's dont totally screw us here soon).


I had 10/20s and 5/20s in the Military..this was 1980s... we called them... 10rd and 5rd magazines...

I wish we could go back in time and NOT invent the fake term 10/30 or 10/20 magazine. Its like "assault weapon". There is no such thing. A magazine is what it is.

CBruce
01-06-2013, 2:25 PM
I am auctioning some PMags and about five people asked me to disassemble them and ship them to a California residence as a legal parts kit.

While I can see doing that with aluminum magazine bodies, springs, and followers as a rebuild kit for old pre-ban aluminum magazines (keeping your original floor-plate), there is no such things as a pre-ban Pmag.

Meaning - as soon as you assemble them, you have illegal contraband. So why waste money on something that you can never legally use?

Do these people not know this, or are they just willing to break the law?

I used mine to make legal 10 round magazines. There's no law stipulating that 10 round magazines have to look a certain way. At least, not yet anyway.

speleogist
01-06-2013, 2:27 PM
I had 10/20s and 5/20s in the Military..this was 1980s... we called them... 10rd and 5rd magazines...

I wish we could go back in time and NOT invent the fake term 10/30 or 10/20 magazine. Its like "assault weapon". There is no such thing. A magazine is what it is.

You had full-bodied magazines that were blocked off to only accept fewer rounds than the magazine body was intended to allow?

Seems pointless.

ke6guj
01-06-2013, 2:27 PM
You obviously cannot repair an aluminum mag with a Pmag as no parts are interchangeable (maybe the spring, but it is cheaper to just buy springs).

exactly, replace every part but the spring and it is still legally the same magazine. Then, at a later time, you can decide to replace the spring if you wish.


But I can see turning them into 10 rounders if it is important to you that they look like 30 rounders (which in my opinion is stupid, but then again, in the 1990s I used to think fake car-phone antennas were stupid, and people did that).some people want a modern magazine, even if it is only 10-rounds. they like the rugedness of the magpul magazine and like the top cover feature. Magpul doesn't make a 10-rounder (they did announce them recently, but I do not know if they started shipping before the rush) so if you want a magpul 10-round mag, you have to make your own from a 20 or 30-rounder.


and for other people, it isn't that it looks like a 20 or 30 rounder, it is that it is longer than a 10-rounder. reloading and failure drills can work easier with the longer length of a 20 or 30 rounder over that of a 10-rounder that barely sticks out of the magwell. And 10-round mags can get lost in a mag pouch whereas the 20's and 30's are long enough to fit properly in the mag pouch.


bottom line is that it isn't illegal to send rebuilt kits to CA and there are legal reasons why someone would want them.

FreedomIsNotFree
01-06-2013, 2:42 PM
The simple rule of thumb is you can't own any additional magazines after the ban as you owned prior to the ban. For example, if you own 10 pre ban USGI mags and you want to replace them with 10 PMAGS, it's perfectly legal so long as you don't own more than 10 when everything is said and done.

IVC
01-06-2013, 2:47 PM
There is a three year statute of limitations. I wouldn't be surprised if some people just kept them unassembled for three years, then when the time is up put them together while keeping the receipt and challenging the DA to prove/disprove whether the magazines were kept assembled or disassembled all that time, which establishes the date of violation for the statute of limitations.

That's the problem with stupid laws that are created as a workaround to bypass Constitution. They couldn't outlaw possession since it would require reimbursement and would be much more challengeable in court. So, they outlawed importation and manufacture, but this runs into the problem of servicing the existing ones which are legal to possess using trivial mechanical parts which are also legal to possess.

dieselpower
01-06-2013, 2:49 PM
You had full-bodied magazines that were blocked off to only accept fewer rounds than the magazine body was intended to allow?

Seems pointless.


training aids. Bright Orange stripes or orange bottoms. They didnt have blocks in them, the sides where crushed in to stop the follower from going any farther down. They were PITA to fix, so we didnt..LOL teaches you to stop trying to load a bad magazine....lol Some were 10rd magazines with the lower half of a magazine hooked to it so it was the same length. They were easier to fix, but still a pain. Most of the time it was a cracked follower from grunts trying to cram in an extra round.

You can still buy these types of magazines from both Bushmaster and ArmaLite. Notice they don't call them 5/20s or 10/20s or what ever... they are just 5 or 10 rd magazines with longer bodies.

http://www.armalite.com/ItemForm.aspx?item=EX0075&ReturnUrl=Categories.aspx?Category=9b3fa949-2de1-4e58-900d-d4b35534acd5

http://www.armalite.com/ItemForm.aspx?item=EX0072&ReturnUrl=Categories.aspx?Category=9b3fa949-2de1-4e58-900d-d4b35534acd5

http://www.bushmaster.com/products.asp?cat=9

Its only been in recent times where we had all this outrage over limited capacity magazines. Its due to them telling us we can't have them. Before they did that many of us didnt have an issue with 5 and 10 rd magazines. I still don't. But I would never support a limiting ban.

tcrpe
01-06-2013, 3:33 PM
Nothing in the PC to generate any such case law.

.

Nothing in the PC that would cause someone to be charged? Good.

aermotor
01-06-2013, 3:36 PM
You obviously cannot repair an aluminum mag with a Pmag

You are wrong. Please support us trapped here in the PRK by sending us rebuild kits. It's no legal ramification to you, simply state you will send them as rebuilds to places that require it.

Moonshine
01-06-2013, 4:10 PM
The pmags use the same spring as an aluminum AR-15 magazine so they can be used with one original component.

Personally I just clean my pre-ban mags often and have been using the same mags for 15+ years. If maintained magazines can last a long time... I have steel WW-II M-1 carbine magazines that are almost 70 years old and still work just fine!

MP301
01-06-2013, 4:37 PM
One final thing that no one mentioned. You can have all the 30 round mags you want as long as you don't assemble them. Then when you cross the border into a less restrictive state, you can assemble them and use them. Then, prior to coming home, take them apart again. This also goes for the neutered semi auto rifles with bullet buttons.

I live an hour from Nevada and also travel to Front Sight training near Las Vegas 3-5 times a year. I know several people that do exactly this on a regular basis.

Lastly, if S actually did HTF, and you really needed the mags, then the last thing you would be worried about is violating this law if your life were in danger. Far fetched? Maybe.......

GoingPro
01-06-2013, 4:39 PM
I only go out of state to shoot these days... all the time wasted on reloading 10rd mags you can drive to vegas from LA and have a fun day without wasted time.

DRM6000
01-06-2013, 4:40 PM
There is a three year statute of limitations. I wouldn't be surprised if some people just kept them unassembled for three years, then when the time is up put them together while keeping the receipt and challenging the DA to prove/disprove whether the magazines were kept assembled or disassembled all that time, which establishes the date of violation for the statute of limitations.

That's the problem with stupid laws that are created as a workaround to bypass Constitution. They couldn't outlaw possession since it would require reimbursement and would be much more challengeable in court. So, they outlawed importation and manufacture, but this runs into the problem of servicing the existing ones which are legal to possess using trivial mechanical parts which are also legal to possess.

in your scenario, the clock would start when the parts are assembled into a mag. so, if you assembled a mag and buried it for three years, the SOL would expire.

rayrayz
01-06-2013, 4:56 PM
There is a three year statute of limitations. I wouldn't be surprised if some people just kept them unassembled for three years, then when the time is up put them together while keeping the receipt and challenging the DA to prove/disprove whether the magazines were kept assembled or disassembled all that time, which establishes the date of violation for the statute of limitations.

That's the problem with stupid laws that are created as a workaround to bypass Constitution. They couldn't outlaw possession since it would require reimbursement and would be much more challengeable in court. So, they outlawed importation and manufacture, but this runs into the problem of servicing the existing ones which are legal to possess using trivial mechanical parts which are also legal to possess.
So how does the statute work? Any mags that are over 3 years old are exempt??? Now I am confused.... I understand the repair and pinning it to 10/30 but this is new to me. Can anyone offer insight?

SgtMerc
01-06-2013, 5:09 PM
So how does the statute work? Any mags that are over 3 years old are exempt??? Now I am confused.... I understand the repair and pinning it to 10/30 but this is new to me. Can anyone offer insight?

statute of limitations is the time limit that elapses before you can no longer be charged for a crime.

for example, if a police officer wanted to arrest you for jaywalking 20 years ago, he'd likely be unable to do so because of statute of limitations.

Depending on the crime, time limits vary. Importing/manufacturing a 10+ magazine in california has a 3 year statute. So if you imported/manufactured it 4 years ago, you typically can't be prosecuted.

I'm not advocating that people do this. I'm just stating the definition of "statute of limitations."

Merovign
01-06-2013, 5:09 PM
This comes up over and over, the DOJ has said, in writing, that this is perfectly cromulent. That means it's hunky-dory.

http://www.hoffmang.com/firearms/DOJ-large-cap-magazines-2005-11-10.pdf

While it is possible that the DOJ or a prosecutor could just ignore the law and their prior interpretations and prosecute someone anyway, they could do that about *any* law, so this is no more dangerous than any other activity.

rsilvers
01-06-2013, 5:24 PM
Possession is illegal. Not just import or manufacture.

filthy phil
01-06-2013, 5:24 PM
I am auctioning some PMags and about five people asked me to disassemble them and ship them to a California residence as a legal parts kit.

While I can see doing that with aluminum magazine bodies, springs, and followers as a rebuild kit for old pre-ban aluminum magazines (keeping your original floor-plate), there is no such things as a pre-ban Pmag.

Meaning - as soon as you assemble them, you have illegal contraband. So why waste money on something that you can never legally use?

Do these people not know this, or are they just willing to break the law?
just support our brothers behind enemy lines and don't worry about it.
i have:D

pMcW
01-06-2013, 5:31 PM
Possession is illegal. Not just import or manufacture.

That's not true in California. No CA PC specifies that possession of 10+ round magazines is a crime.

Sniper3142
01-06-2013, 5:32 PM
I am auctioning some PMags and about five people asked me to disassemble them and ship them to a California residence as a legal parts kit.

While I can see doing that with aluminum magazine bodies, springs, and followers as a rebuild kit for old pre-ban aluminum magazines (keeping your original floor-plate), there is no such things as a pre-ban Pmag.

Meaning - as soon as you assemble them, you have illegal contraband. So why waste money on something that you can never legally use?

Do these people not know this, or are they just willing to break the law?

You are wrong.

Legally owned LCMs (Large Capacity Magazines) in California can be maintained by replacing or repairing any or all parts. And there is no legal requirement for us to only use "preban" parts or parts from the same manufacturer. So a legally owned LCM can have its parts replaced with Brand New parts.

You can replace an old USGI 30 round metal body with a Brand New Metal body, or even a Brand New Polymer Body (Pmag). The old follower can be replaced with a Brand New anti-tilt one. Since the Spring of a Magpul Pmag is compatible with a USGI one, you can legally swap one part at a time (starting with the spring) until you eventually end up with what amounts to a Legally Owned Pmag.

JTecalo
01-06-2013, 5:37 PM
Possession is illegal. Not just import or manufacture.

double check the sticky on mags I believe you are mistaken on possession

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=387409

rsilvers
01-06-2013, 5:38 PM
Statute of limitations - so during your expensive trial you will prove that you illegally manufactured the magazines more than 7 years ago?

pMcW
01-06-2013, 5:38 PM
http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/Large-capacity_magazine_restrictions

http://oag.ca.gov/firearms/pubfaqs#9
If I have a large-capacity magazine, do I need to get rid of it?
No. Continued possession of large-capacity magazines (able to accept more than 10 rounds) that you owned in California before January 1, 2000, is not prohibited. However as of January 1, 2000, it is illegal to buy, manufacture, import, keep for sale, expose for sale, give or lend any large-capacity magazine in California except by law enforcement agencies, California peace officers, or licensed dealers.

(PC Section 12020 (b)(19-29))

pMcW
01-06-2013, 5:42 PM
Statute of limitations - so during your expensive trial you will prove that you illegally manufactured the magazines more than 7 years ago?

That is a sticky part IMO. Nevertheless, possession is not a crime. The only crimes are regarding +10 rd magazines are:

buy
manufacture
import
keep for sale,
expose for sale
give or lend


And those crimes have the a 3-year statue of limitations.

winnre
01-06-2013, 5:52 PM
That is a sticky part IMO. Nevertheless, possession is not a crime. The only crimes are regarding +10 rd magazines are:

buy
manufacture
import
keep for sale,
expose for sale
give or lend


And those crimes have the a 3-year statue of limitations.


Buying is not a crime. If you sell me one, or I find one at a gun store, I can legally buy it.

john67elco
01-06-2013, 5:56 PM
Do these people not know this, or are they just willing to break the law?

Even assembled we would not be breaking law you would be. Nothing in the law states possession or buying only selling, import, manufacture.

taperxz
01-06-2013, 6:05 PM
Even assembled we would not be breaking law you would be. Nothing in the law states possession or buying only selling, import, manufacture.

WRONG! ever heard about conspiracy? By buying the way you suggest would be facilitating the sale.

strongpoint
01-06-2013, 6:19 PM
Possession is illegal. Not just import or manufacture.

wait, i thought you were here to ASK questions. the penal code in question does not outlaw possession or use.


Statute of limitations - so during your expensive trial you will prove that you illegally manufactured the magazines more than 7 years ago?

the prosecution would first have to establish that the magazines were manufactured within the statute of limitations. it would be foolish to go to trial with no such evidence.

Ninety
01-06-2013, 6:22 PM
Possession is illegal. Not just import or manufacture.

care to back that up?

Do you always spread FUD?

I don't like to state things that I don't know to be factual.. so sometimes I will say "for all I know" or "as far as I know" "if I remember correctly" or "correct me if I'm wrong" etc..
and I know I'm :beatdeadhorse5: with you

skibuff
01-06-2013, 6:31 PM
You can't use them in a RAW so your only option is a stupid featureless loop hole gun or to plug them and make a 10-30 tacticool even stupider than a featureless. I have no problem with plugged mags but when there are plenty of inexpensive 10 round standard CA capacity mags it's just tactifool.

Yes I guess you could use them to rebuild your RAW mags. The last time I rebuilt one of my RAW mags was well never.

Nor*Cal
01-06-2013, 6:34 PM
Statute of limitations - so during your expensive trial you will prove that you illegally manufactured the magazines more than 7 years ago?

You obviously have made up your mind about this subject before even posting your first question. You have received almost 30 posts on this thread explaining why us Californians ask for Pmag kits and explaining the CA laws that surround them.

If you do not want to sell them to California residents then that's your choice. There are plenty of other sellers that do and appreciate our business.

What I do not get is why you are part of a CA gun forum if you do not support CA gun owners. Feel free to permanently log off, you will not be missed.

bwiese
01-06-2013, 6:38 PM
There's a lotta fail in this thread in all directions. In general,



Mag parts can be imported to repair pre-2000 hicaps or other
lawful purposes (see below).
. .
Mag parts can be imported to build permanently restricted-to-10
or-less round magazines (i.e., "10/30" and "10/20").
.
Teenyboppers continually propounding 'possession is not illegal'
for building post-2000 hicap mags have not looked at PC 31/32
about aiding and abetting. There's this whole 'smell test'. Also
I can bet most of these saying crap like this will fold up and make statements against interest when in trouble. Do not look at
laws in isolation.

[I use the term teeeyboppers because it seems that youngsters
graduate from Airsoft to PMAGs, while we crusty old farts are
perfectly happy with our USGIs.]
.
I see no problem repairing legit USGI 30s with USGI parts.
Expect - should push come to shove - to really get the evil eye
from a DA if you have a PMAG body with old GI parts somehow;
that's likely not gonna pass the smell test without a big fight.
Can't really understand why people like PMAGs in maglocke'd
rifles anyway - appears more risk/reports of carrier drag/extraction/ejection issues on BB'd rifles with 10/30 PMAGs than with USGI-style 10s.

fullspeed1
01-06-2013, 6:40 PM
Seems a little troll-ish

Ninety
01-06-2013, 7:00 PM
I think he is a Troll.. If I remember right he had some other comments that were inflammatory to the normal person on here.. but oh well.

Skibuff refer to post #42

Hdawg
01-06-2013, 7:01 PM
You can't use them in a RAW so your only option is a stupid featureless loop hole gun or to plug them and make a 10-30 tacticool even stupider than a featureless. I have no problem with plugged mags but when there are plenty of inexpensive 10 round standard CA capacity mags it's just tactifool.

Yes I guess you could use them to rebuild your RAW mags. The last time I rebuilt one of my RAW mags was well never.

You CAN use them in a RAW if they are legally owned, just as you can use them in a featureless build. You CANNOT use them in a BB'ed rifle because a (non-tube fed) rifle with a fixed mag of more than 10 rounds is considered an assault weapon under California law.

Also thanks for deciding that someone who builds a rifle to comply with the law has built a "loop hole" gun. That fits right in with all of the antis who are trying to close the "gun show loophole". :facepalm: Maybe you should check with Senator Yee to see if he needs another assistant. Oh, and "stupider" is much cooler sounding if you use "more" in front of it. :rolleyes:

rsilvers
01-06-2013, 7:05 PM
So you repair your car by buying a new car, shipped to you with the wheels off. You put the new wheels on your old car, then a minute later, remove the new wheels from the old car, put them on the new car - your old car is now completely repaired.

taperxz
01-06-2013, 7:12 PM
So you repair your car by buying a new car, shipped to you with the wheels off. You put the new wheels on your old car, then a minute later, remove the new wheels from the old car, put them on the new car - your old car is now completely repaired.

Cars are registered. Its not uncommon though to take an old car, buy a motor, complete new suspension, trasmission, rear end, new paint, new chrome and restore it now is it? Would you like to see my 57 chevy that has more new parts on it than when it came from the factory in 57?

rsilvers
01-06-2013, 7:13 PM
Seems like if I sent them and they were used to make 10 rounders, it would be legal.

Seems like it they were used in a crime, then I would be prosecuted under PC 31/32 for aiding and abetting the manufacture.

Bill W's answer seems best.

AAShooter
01-06-2013, 7:16 PM
So you repair your car by buying a new car, shipped to you with the wheels off. You put the new wheels on your old car, then a minute later, remove the new wheels from the old car, put them on the new car - your old car is now completely repaired.

Yep, you got it.

Same in some fancy neighborhoods with building houses. The process for remodeling is a lot easier/faster than for new construction. So they demo the whole house except for one wall or section of the wall. Then they do their rebuild/expansion. Then if necessary, do a new remodel job to replace the original wall.

Same with shake roofs. I lot of towns will not allow shakes for a new roof but shakes are allowed for repairs . . . you probably got the rest of the story figured out.

Stupids laws support stupid behaviors.

Meplat
01-06-2013, 7:16 PM
The pmags use the same spring as an aluminum AR-15 magazine so they can be used with one original component.

Personally I just clean my pre-ban mags often and have been using the same mags for 15+ years. If maintained magazines can last a long time... I have steel WW-II M-1 carbine magazines that are almost 70 years old and still work just fine!

Bet ya never ran over one did ya?:43:

rsilvers
01-06-2013, 7:17 PM
Yes I was incorrect about possession being illegal. I thought your law was an extension of the federal law as it is in MA.

Anchors
01-06-2013, 7:25 PM
You would not be liable if you sold someone a rebuild kit and THEY manufacturered a large capacity ammunition feeding device.
You did not import, sell, or manufacturer it. Only parts for it.
There is no "constructive possession" of magazines and simple possession is not even illegal.

If someone you sell them to does something dumb, then that is on them.
I sell people guns, mags, and ammo. Doesn't make me liable for their crimes unless I literally knew they were going to, planned to, of wanted to commit a crime with them.

Some people keep rebuild kids laying around disassembled for out of state use, in case the laws ever change, and for "rainy days" (Hurricane Katrina, L.A. Riots, etc scale events).

skibuff
01-06-2013, 7:29 PM
You CAN use them in a RAW if they are legally owned, just as you can use them in a featureless build. You CANNOT use them in a BB'ed rifle because a (non-tube fed) rifle with a fixed mag of more than 10 rounds is considered an assault weapon under California law.

Also thanks for deciding that someone who builds a rifle to comply with the law has built a "loop hole" gun. That fits right in with all of the antis who are trying to close the "gun show loophole". :facepalm: Maybe you should check with Senator Yee to see if he needs another assistant. Oh, and "stupider" is much cooler sounding if you use "more" in front of it. :rolleyes:

Tell me how a high cap mag that was manufactured after 2000 is in Ca without being brought in through a loop hole or illegally.

I could be wrong but I do not think it is legal to use a post 2000 high cap mag in a RAW.

Why I have a problem with featureless is a huge number of them are using illegal(loop hole) hi cap mags

+1 BWise PMag=Airsoft/Tacticool I prefer my pre 95 M4 stock

I talk with the Forest Ranger where I shoot and he confiscates 20+ illegal AW's or hi cap mags every month over the summer.

Meplat
01-06-2013, 7:35 PM
Statute of limitations - so during your expensive trial you will prove that you illegally manufactured the magazines more than 7 years ago?

Man, do you have reading comprehension problems, or are you into the cooking wine again? It's three years not seven and the state has the burden of proof. You come looking for answers but if you have all the answers and are unwilling to listen to folks who live with this crap every day, then go ahead and refuse sales to CA There are other smarter sellers who will be happy to take our business. :facepalm:

Stockton
01-06-2013, 7:45 PM
Or simple math:
1.You don't know-then don't sell.

2.You don't understand-then don't sell

3. You don't want to learn-then don't sell

Jeepers
01-06-2013, 7:51 PM
rsilvers its legal and the CalGuns legal team have gone over it many many many times

anywho is this the same rsilvers from the suppressor forums? just wondering .....

Saym14
01-06-2013, 7:51 PM
1. they can build them into 10 rounders
2. they can rebuild previousely legally owned mags - doenst matter if no parts are interchangeable.
3. possession is not illegal - I owned legal 30 round preban mags. I rebuilt them with current date bodies - not illegal.

if you dont want to sell them let it go. there are many that do legally.

foreppin916
01-06-2013, 7:58 PM
People are panic buying because they fear this mags wont be available soon. Even in CA if you do not assemble them and move out of state your good to go. You can also use these to repair your 20 year old GI mags too!

pMcW
01-06-2013, 7:59 PM
Buying is not a crime. If you sell me one, or I find one at a gun store, I can legally buy it.

Hmmm. I was just going by what I read in the DOJ FAQ (http://oag.ca.gov/firearms/pubfaqs#9). Maybe that doesn't match the PC...

12voltguy
01-06-2013, 8:02 PM
Statute of limitations - so during your expensive trial you will prove that you illegally manufactured the magazines more than 7 years ago?

it's 3 years

12voltguy
01-06-2013, 8:02 PM
Statute of limitations - so during your expensive trial you will prove that you illegally manufactured the magazines more than 7 years ago?

it's 3 years

OleCuss
01-06-2013, 8:03 PM
Seems like if I sent them and they were used to make 10 rounders, it would be legal.

Seems like it they were used in a crime, then I would be prosecuted under PC 31/32 for aiding and abetting the manufacture.

Bill W's answer seems best.

Bill is truly expert in the matter. Very worth paying a lot of attention any time he chooses to post in a matter such as this.

I think he is being more cautious than the letter of the law suggests is necessary, but there is a point to that. Bill wants to keep us out of trouble by keeping us from being arrested and prosecuted and then having to spend tens of thousands of dollars trying to convince a judge and jury to follow the law as we understand think it should be interpreted.

bombadillo
01-06-2013, 8:04 PM
I had 10/20s and 5/20s in the Military..this was 1980s... we called them... 10rd and 5rd magazines...

I wish we could go back in time and NOT invent the fake term 10/30 or 10/20 magazine. Its like "assault weapon". There is no such thing. A magazine is what it is.


Its the barbie doll mentality of the AR-15 rifle. I like a nice 24" free float tube (nothing fancy, no rails, no frills etc) target crown in stainless, and an A2 stock, MMG, using a bipod, and bag with 30 round magazines. That is a fun setup to plink with and try and make tiny little groups at 100-200 yards. Others want to get a 14.5" pinned with a mediocre brake, M203 cutout for a spikes chalk launcher, tacticool magpul EVERYTHING, ranger plates, single point sling that they don't know how to use, vertical fore grip that sticks 5" past what they actually need, 4-12x40 scope that is way overpowered with their offset Doctor sight or Burris speed dot on the side, and a surefire tactical light mounted on the ridiculously heavy quad rail they got on Amazon. Ends up being way too heavy and fairly well dead weight. It is the happy little AR of their dreams.

To each their own, but I like simplicity.

Meplat
01-06-2013, 8:06 PM
Why I have a problem with featureless is a huge number of them are using illegal(loop hole) hi cap mags



And this frightens you why?

SgtMerc
01-06-2013, 8:14 PM
Hmmm. I was just going by what I read in the DOJ FAQ (http://oag.ca.gov/firearms/pubfaqs#9). Maybe that doesn't match the PC...

that DOJ lists the reference. according to CA PC 12020 (b)19-29 you can find the exemptions for large cap mags.

but earlier in the reference it states CA PC 12020 (a) (2)
(2) Commencing January 1, 2000, manufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports into the state, keeps for sale, or offers or exposes for sale, or who gives, or lends, any large-capacity magazine.

Notice the above does not say buy. it only states offers for sale.

But back to the topic at hand, OP asked a question. We have all given the answer and the OP refuses to acknowledge them, despite the fact that PC has been listed, along with references to the same.

The OP has a right to refuse sales, but it's pretty silly to ask a question and then disagree when the answer isn't the one you had already made up in your own mind.

Ten Rounder
01-06-2013, 8:19 PM
I don't need thia whole thread as rsilvers has this need for attention.

DO NOT FEED THE OUT OF STATE TROLL........ Look up 300 BLK and rsilvers ........so how many forums have you been banned on? GFY

IBTL
IBrsilversB major waste on band width

tcrpe
01-06-2013, 8:23 PM
Hope you guys detailed this subject sufficiently for DOJ.

Sniper3142
01-06-2013, 8:24 PM
Tell me how a high cap mag that was manufactured after 2000 is in Ca without being brought in through a loop hole or illegally.

I could be wrong but I do not think it is legal to use a post 2000 high cap mag in a RAW.

Why I have a problem with featureless is a huge number of them are using illegal(loop hole) hi cap mags

+1 BWise PMag=Airsoft/Tacticool I prefer my pre 95 M4 stock

I talk with the Forest Ranger where I shoot and he confiscates 20+ illegal AW's or hi cap mags every month over the summer.

Because it isn't a LCM manufactured after 2000. It's a LCM legally possessed in California prior to 2000 that has had some or all of its part repaired or replaced! Or do you think that someone who's got a legally owned LCM that has it's body damaged should be forced to destroy or lose the use of it?!? Under the law, that owner can replace that damaged body with a BRAND NEW one. Once again, there is no legal requirement to use identical parts or "preban" parts. If you legally own a USGI LCM, you get to replace the old follower with a Brand New Anti-Tilt one. Or the spring, or the floorplate, or even the body!

Saym14
01-06-2013, 8:32 PM
1. they can build them into 10 rounders
2. they can rebuild previousely legally owned mags - doenst matter if no parts are interchangeable.
3. possession is not illegal - I owned legal 30 round preban mags. I rebuilt them with current date bodies - not illegal.

if you dont want to sell them let it go. there are many that do legally.

4. some of us shoot out of state matches - its legal to take it out of state, build it, shoot, take apart drive home.

rsilvers
01-06-2013, 9:07 PM
But back to the topic at hand, OP asked a question. We have all given the answer and the OP refuses to acknowledge them, despite the fact that PC has been listed, along with references to the same.

The OP has a right to refuse sales, but it's pretty silly to ask a question and then disagree when the answer isn't the one you had already made up in your own mind.

How can you say that I refused to acknowledge the answers when my own conclusion was that it is legal to send parts kits? Just a few posts ago I said:

Seems like if I sent them and they were used to make 10 rounders, it would be legal.

skibuff
01-06-2013, 9:07 PM
And this frightens you why?

I think it does more to hurt the efforts to win over non gun supporters than it helps. I own many RAWS and lots of Hi Cap mags and wish they were still legal in CA for everyone to own. I'am having a very tough time trying to figure out how to transfer my RAWs to my boys. Most are not ban by name so I can pull them from DOJ and stuff a BB on them. I think this new BB legislation will force me to make a decision way before I'd hoped to.

I have no fear of Hi Cap Mags but breaking the law does not strengthen your position period.

rsilvers
01-06-2013, 9:12 PM
The OP has a right to refuse sales, but it's pretty silly to ask a question and then disagree when the answer isn't the one you had already made up in your own mind.

Again, my conclusion was that this is legal. I don't know why you think I reached any other conclusion as I said "It looks like it is legal..."

kantstudien
01-06-2013, 9:21 PM
So you're a lawyer now huh? Why even bother coming on this site?

skibuff
01-06-2013, 9:24 PM
Because it isn't a LCM manufactured after 2000. It's a LCM legally possessed in California prior to 2000 that has had some or all of its part repaired or replaced! Or do you think that someone who's got a legally owned LCM that has it's body damaged should be forced to destroy or lose the use of it?!? Under the law, that owner can replace that damaged body with a BRAND NEW one. Once again, there is no legal requirement to use identical parts or "preban" parts. If you legally own a USGI LCM, you get to replace the old follower with a Brand New Anti-Tilt one. Or the spring, or the floorplate, or even the body!

If you assemble a Pmag (which were not made until after 2000) and stick it in a raw it is illegal.

I did not say rebuilding a legal pre ban hi cap mag with Pmag parts.

Get realistic How many of the hi cap Pmag that are in CA are truly being use to rebuild damaged pre 2000 hi caps? I've got 100's of mags most legal hi cap and some post 2000 10rnd plugged or factory 10rnd mags shoot 7k+ rounds per year and have never had to replace a any part on a mag. A pair needle nose and a file have fix any problem I've had.

I have no problem with buying extra mag parts kits to use to rebuild a legal mag. I do have a problem with someone who did not own a hi cap mag prior to 2000 bringing in a rebuild kit assembling it claiming they got it when they were 10.

winnre
01-06-2013, 9:28 PM
I keep my kits in pieces until I go to Nevada and assemble them there and shoot. Then I disassemble them before returning. 100% legal.

MadMax
01-06-2013, 9:30 PM
Because it is also legal to rebuild a legally owned USGI into a PMAG as long as you only have the pmag left over and you don't seem to be acknowledging that.

You can also put whatever high cap you want into a RAW it doesn't matter, i don't see your logic about a PMAG being made after a raw was registered.

AKSOG
01-06-2013, 9:30 PM
So you're a lawyer now huh? Why even bother coming on this site?

If there's one thing apparent, it's that the OP has no background in law. Anybody reading this should take his interpretation with a grain of salt.

OleCuss
01-06-2013, 9:40 PM
Again, my conclusion was that this is legal. I don't know why you think I reached any other conclusion as I said "It looks like it is legal..."

Relax, don't worry about those who want to bust your chops.

It can take a little while to sink in that you are a good guy.


The thing is that some of us still disagree with you a bit about whether we can repair an existing 30 rounder with a newer type of parts kit. I don't see any need for us to agree on this.

I wish you a happy life in a freer state!

john67elco
01-06-2013, 9:42 PM
WRONG! ever heard about conspiracy? By buying the way you suggest would be facilitating the sale.

:willy_nilly::willy_nilly:

tcrpe
01-06-2013, 10:00 PM
I suppose everyone saves the worn out parts of their pre-ban mags as proof they owned them, right? That would be common sense.

skibuff
01-06-2013, 10:04 PM
I suppose everyone saves the worn out parts of their pre-ban mags as proof they owned them, right? That would be common sense.

more than 20k rounds thru my 16rnd sig226 mags from 1995 and have yet to have a broken part.

tcrpe
01-06-2013, 10:06 PM
more than 20k rounds thru my 16rnd sig226 mags from 1995 and have yet to have a broken part.

I've yet to wear out or break a mag, but there were a couple I tossed as unreliable and couldn't "fine tune"

winnre
01-06-2013, 10:52 PM
We had worn springs in our Army 1911 magazines, but in some cases the mags were 50 years old.

skibuff
01-06-2013, 10:54 PM
I've yet to wear out or break a mag, but there were a couple I tossed as unreliable and couldn't "fine tune"


Yet people are bring in rebuild kits by the thousands. We must be the lucky ones who's mags have held up and we haven't had to buy 10 30rnd Pmag rebuild kits to keep ours going.

AKSOG
01-06-2013, 11:09 PM
You must be

AAShooter
01-06-2013, 11:42 PM
I suppose everyone saves the worn out parts of their pre-ban mags as proof they owned them, right? That would be common sense.

The law is not based on proving innocence. Instead, the burden of proof is on others to prove a violation took place.

Nor*Cal
01-06-2013, 11:44 PM
This thread should be deleted, all it does is help fine tune the new bill.

JackRydden224
01-06-2013, 11:47 PM
You don't know what people do in their homes...

You can convert a pistol lower to a rifle lower with a stock and you'll have a SBR. You can stick a mag magnet on the bullet button so you can release the magazine quickly. You can assemble a 30rd rebuild kit to hold 30 rounds. The combination of the three will make a good HD weapon.

If you don't take it out of your home or show anybody then nobody will know.

FWIW, I don't own an AR so I've not violated any laws or committed any crimes!

supermanuf
01-06-2013, 11:53 PM
Rsilvers... Adam Keigwin, is that you?

CnCFunFactory
01-07-2013, 12:36 AM
....But I can see turning them into 10 rounders if it is important to you that they look like 30 rounders (which in my opinion is stupid, but then again, in the 1990s I used to think fake car-phone antennas were stupid, and people did that).

You ever tried wrestling out a ten round mag with gloves on while trying to "finger hump" your bullet buttoned rifle? Believe me having all that real estate to grab onto with a converted 30 rd mag makes all the difference in the world.;)

shooter5
01-07-2013, 12:37 AM
And this frightens you why?



Why I have a problem with featureless is a huge number of them are using illegal(loop hole) hi cap mags


Answer ONE.. On this premise, YOU call it a "Loophole"... um, Loophole=legal.. Sooo, yes what is your concern?


I talk with the Forest Ranger where I shoot and he confiscates 20+ illegal AW's or hi cap mags every month over the summer.

If people have illegally configured weapons than that's what they get.. As for "POSSESSION" of "hi-cap" magazines.. IF they are attached to an AW (illegal in CA) you may have a problem.
But there is NO law against POSSESSION of "hi-cap" in California..

AS an "owner of 100+ hi-cap magazines" , pre-ban or not, you should also be aware it is illegal to use them in a "un-registered assault-weapon".. only a "featureless rifle"..

But im sure you have never done that..


Get realistic How many of the hi cap Pmag that are in CA are truly being use to rebuild damaged pre 2000 hi caps?

Why is this your problem?

If people test or break the law that's on them..

Its like saying, How many people with "medical marijuana" cards actually use it for medical purposes?

I don't know.. I don't care.. Both are equally stupid.. (except pot is a FEDERAL crime but CA looks the other way)

Why do you care if law abiding citizens have the same legal standard capacity magazines you do?

Let them get in trouble if they don't follow the rules (or loopholes as you put it) correctly.. Its not like they can make it any worse than it already is...

As for the OP.. If you dont get it by now.. Your not going to.. Pretty soon the FEDs might just want to take yours too.. We have been living in Obamas 2nd term for 20 years..

Get a helmet..

RollingCode3
01-07-2013, 1:00 AM
There's a lotta fail in this thread in all directions. In general,



Mag parts can be imported to repair pre-2000 hicaps or other
lawful purposes (see below).
. .
Mag parts can be imported to build permanently restricted-to-10
or-less round magazines (i.e., "10/30" and "10/20").
.
Teenyboppers continually propounding 'possession is not illegal'
for building post-2000 hicap mags have not looked at PC 31/32
about aiding and abetting. There's this whole 'smell test'. Also
I can bet most of these saying crap like this will fold up and make statements against interest when in trouble. Do not look at
laws in isolation.

[I use the term teeeyboppers because it seems that youngsters
graduate from Airsoft to PMAGs, while we crusty old farts are
perfectly happy with our USGIs.]
.
I see no problem repairing legit USGI 30s with USGI parts.
Expect - should push come to shove - to really get the evil eye
from a DA if you have a PMAG body with old GI parts somehow;
that's likely not gonna pass the smell test without a big fight.
Can't really understand why people like PMAGs in maglocke'd
rifles anyway - appears more risk/reports of carrier drag/extraction/ejection issues on BB'd rifles with 10/30 PMAGs than with USGI-style 10s.



+1.... I lost count how many times I see young people buying rebuild kits online on guns that manufacture after 2000 (M&P, Springfield XD, Ruger SR9, Walther PPQ, etc..) and use it to shoot at the range. The only thing i hear from them over and over and over again is "POSSESSION is not illegal''. You just bought the freaking M&P a week ago and now you in possession of 4 hi cap mags and telling me that you found it on the ground at the range. :facepalm: Check out the handgun gallery section if you dont believe me. :facepalm:

shooter5
01-07-2013, 1:28 AM
+1.... I lost count how many times I see young people buying rebuild kits online on guns that manufacture after 2000 (M&P, Springfield XD, Ruger SR9, Walther PPQ, etc..) and use it to shoot at the range. The only thing i hear from them over and over and over again is "POSSESSION is not illegal''. You just bought the freaking M&P a week ago and now you in possession of 4 hi cap mags and telling me that you found it on the ground at the range. :facepalm: Check out the handgun gallery section if you dont believe me. :facepalm:

Don't disagree with this premise..

Again.. they don't understand the law..

If its obvious they "manufactured" an illegal magazine than that's on them.. However that's an issue for LAW ENFORCEMENT to prove within legal statues..

Let them go down on their own..

I just don't understand why its inherent for some to worry about otherwise law abiding gun owners (understanding of rather obscure ca law) in publication?

Do you call in people driving faster or slower than you on the freeway? Just as silly to post such here..

MattyB
01-07-2013, 1:29 AM
Has anyone even thought to stop and think that RSilvers is a Yee troll???

QUITE TALKING ABOUT HOW THE LAWS WORK!!! WE DONT NEED EVEN MORE RESTRICTIONS THAN WE ALREADY HAVE!!

Come on people. Get with the program. A simple CGF wiki link is all thats necessary. Beyond that RSilvers shouldnt sell mags on CG.net if he thinks he is breaking the law.

shooter5
01-07-2013, 1:44 AM
Agree.. that's my point.. Mind your own business and let others who may interpret the law differently to their own conclusion... ITS THEIR PROBLEM...

I could sell my truck to someone tomorrow.. He could turn around and break untold numbers of laws and hurt/kill people with it.. How its that my problem or fault?

Its not..

Just know whats legal for you..

IVC
01-07-2013, 2:18 AM
Statute of limitations - so during your expensive trial you will prove that you illegally manufactured the magazines more than 7 years ago?

Nobody has to prove their innocence. The DA has to prove, beyond reasonable doubt for a felony, that an infraction occurred and that it occurred within the specified time limit. A defendant can just sit there and go "la, la, la." Having a 4 year old receipt and *confessing* to committing an infraction at that time is more than reasonable doubt that it hasn't occurred in the last three years.

Stupid laws, stupid workarounds.

I don't suggest anyone play these games, since the saying goes "play stupid games, win stupid prizes." All I'm saying is that due to the roundabout way the ban had to be introduced, there is a roundabout way to avoid getting in legal trouble. Much like not admitting you were doing 80 mph on the freeway the other day.

0nTarg3t
01-07-2013, 2:28 AM
So how does the statute work? Any mags that are over 3 years old are exempt??? Now I am confused.... I understand the repair and pinning it to 10/30 but this is new to me. Can anyone offer insight?

i would just ignore the the SOL comments.assembling a +10 round mag that is not replacing one you owned prior to the ban,then waiting till the SOL kicks in 3 years later crosses the line of legality.

otalps
01-07-2013, 5:02 AM
I do have a problem with someone who did not own a hi cap mag prior to 2000 bringing in a rebuild kit assembling it claiming they got it when they were 10.

Why do you have a problem with that?

otalps
01-07-2013, 5:04 AM
Get a helmet..

Or a sign.

rsilvers
01-07-2013, 5:07 AM
By the way, it is not that I was never agreeing with people, but sometimes I take a position that I don't necessarily agree with to test the quality of the arguments and to hash out every angle.

My conclusion is that there are legal ways to make use of P-mag parts kits.

rsilvers
01-07-2013, 5:07 AM
I would save all of the old parts though.

And this statute of limitations argument is dubious - you would be incentivised to argue that you broke the law, but did it more than three years ago. So they can't prosecute you, but they will cancel your "may issue" carry permit because you just said you break the law and so you are no longer a suitable person.

Question: How come no magazine manufactures sell parts kits into the huge market of CA?

skyscraper
01-07-2013, 7:36 AM
Rsilvers,

They are good questions and you came to the right place. Just an FYI: when certain people disagree and have no related subject matter to add they will throw out the "yee troll" work and such. Ignore those. I know who you are and if they did too they would likely close their yappers.

An FYI though: you will likely get the most money for the rebuild kits in ca. I sold a few guns and mags on gunbroker lately and ca residents were the highest bidders. Good luck

rsilvers
01-07-2013, 7:42 AM
I have an FFL and live in MA. It is legal for a manufacturer to sell me anything. CDNN refuses to send non-MA compliant handguns to me - even though it is legal, because MA law says it is illegal for me to transfer the handguns to an individual. That is my responsibility, not theirs - and I never will transfer it. So yes, I am upset they won't send me the pistol.

Also I ordered a LaRue PredatAR in 7.62mm. The refuse to send me the standard model, and will only send a "MA complaint model" with a welded on SureFire Muzzle brake for an extra $250. I hate muzzle brakes, hate welded on muzzle devices, and dislike the extra $250. Since I have an FFL, I can have the normal one. Calling them and explaining this made no difference. So I get the frustration.

But I also see their side where they are selling everything they can make anyway, so why assume any additional potential liability or even be subjected to an inquiry?

Bargearse
01-07-2013, 7:48 AM
Possession is illegal. Not just import or manufacture.

Possession of Mag in parts kit is NOT illegal. I own several post ban 30 rounds mags in parts kit for shooting outside of CA.

OHOD
01-07-2013, 8:34 AM
There is a three year statute of limitations. I wouldn't be surprised if some people just kept them unassembled for three years, then when the time is up put them together while keeping the receipt and challenging the DA to prove/disprove whether the magazines were kept assembled or disassembled all that time, which establishes the date of violation for the statute of limitations.



Pmags have a date stamp on the body. When manufacturing the bodies, a date is molded into it.
It looks like a clock with an arrow in it.

My parts kit has a manufacture date of 5/09. Meaning, May 2009.
I bought this magazine in August of 2009, to my recollection.

I would hypothesize that I am beyond the 3 year statute of limitations for this one magazine. Believe I purchased 3 parts kits at that time.

five.five-six
01-07-2013, 8:50 AM
http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk232/xXTsukasaXx1234/cat-cats-kitten-kitty-pic-picture-funny-lolcat-cute-fun-lovely-photo-images-i-love-this-thread-so-much.jpg

OleCuss
01-07-2013, 9:21 AM
I would save all of the old parts though.

And this statute of limitations argument is dubious - you would be incentivised to argue that you broke the law, but did it more than three years ago. So they can't prosecute you, but they will cancel your "may issue" carry permit because you just said you break the law and so you are no longer a suitable person.
.
.
.

'Tis a good point.

My thing is that people should comply with the law - no matter that it is unforgivably stupid.

But if I were to upgrade some of my old GTRMs using a PMag rebuild kit and I were questioned about my having them, my response would not be to explain how and when - it would be to tell the questioner that I have complied with the law, may I go now?

The key is to follow the law and don't spend your time trying to make the case for an arrest and/or prosecution.

Fact is that I've got more than enough perfectly legal GTRMs for my AR-15 (it's a RAW) but some are not in great shape and really should be repaired. I should be getting rebuild kits of either the same type or of an improved version and do some rebuilding.

I'm not going to apologize to anyone if I use the best available parts to rebuild/repair my magazines.

GutPunch
01-07-2013, 9:29 AM
So much fail.

Someone please destroy this thread...

IVC
01-07-2013, 10:35 AM
And this statute of limitations argument is dubious - you would be incentivised to argue that you broke the law, but did it more than three years ago. So they can't prosecute you, but they will cancel your "may issue" carry permit because you just said you break the law and so you are no longer a suitable person.

The SOL argument is not a suggestion, just a safety net.

In reality, nobody would be admitting or doing anything. The attorney would just inform the DA that they don't have a case since there is no way for them to put a time stamp on the infraction, especially if the purchase date is very old. If the DA insisted and the case ever got to trial, dismissing it based on SOL is no different than dismissing it because of any other reason. The person remains "clean."

Question: How come no magazine manufactures sell parts kits into the huge market of CA?

Because they know that there is only a limited market for the pre-ban magazines and that if they got any real sales volume, it would have to be from the people crossing the line. This would open them to aiding and abetting or conspiracy charges since it would be reasonable for them to know who they are serving. It's easier to avoid being a test case, especially since our AG is a certified anti gunner.

bwiese
01-07-2013, 12:11 PM
Question: How come no magazine manufactures sell parts kits into the huge market of CA?


Mag manufcaturing companies deal in volume, not special exceptions in special zones.

That's what distribution partners are for.

Places like Brownell's sell mag replacement parts into CA as well as biz lke "44Mag" (who I think is an advertiser here).

hawk1
01-07-2013, 12:22 PM
So much fail.

Someone please destroy this thread...

Agreed.
Where's Librarian at? He's locked other threads for far less than what's in this one.

The guy got his answer, but is now just trolling.

rsilvers
01-07-2013, 12:31 PM
In reality, nobody would be admitting or doing anything. The attorney would just inform the DA that they don't have a case since there is no way for them to put a time stamp on the infraction, especially if the purchase date is very old. If the DA insisted and the case ever got to trial, dismissing it based on SOL is no different than dismissing it because of any other reason. The person remains "clean."

Or they would check gunbroker and UPS shipping records and see that you just bought the parts.

kaligaran
01-07-2013, 12:39 PM
Because they know that there is only a limited market for the pre-ban magazines and that if they got any real sales volume, it would have to be from the people crossing the line. This would open them to aiding and abetting or conspiracy charges since it would be reasonable for them to know who they are serving.

I don't think it's fair to suggest that volume sales indicates illegal behavior at all.

While that may be the reasons for some sellers to not offer them.
I would like to point out as been said before that many people who do not own pre-ban standard capacity magazines do convert mag rebuild kits to be permanently blocked 10 round mags (welding, rivets, etc).
Perhaps they like the way that the 30 round mag body looks better or whatever reason... But then block them to be fully compliant with state laws.

ap3572001
01-07-2013, 12:53 PM
Interesting thread! :)

Let me add some fuel into a fire . Just for fun . LOL

So what if someone bought handguns that where made for while (Beretta 92 or Sig 226), but does not have any std.cap. magazines for them, buys some of those REBUILD kits , puts them together and uses it just like any other magazines?

DO THEY HAVE TO RUN AROUND WITH SOME KIND OF A PROOF THAT THEY HAD THEM BEFORE THE YEAR 2000?

Yes, I DO KNOW WHAT THEY DID WRONG.

But do they have to have the proof that they did everything right?

Or someone bought some OLD GI "REBUILD KITS" and put them together. Do they need to have photos of them holding those magazines in 1999?

P.Charm
01-07-2013, 12:59 PM
I wonder how many PMs he got asking to sell them some PMAGs. great marketing stratagy.

P.Charm
01-07-2013, 1:00 PM
Interesting thread! :)

Let me add some fuel into a fire . Just for fun . LOL

So what if someone bought handguns that where made for while (Beretta 92 or Sig 226), but does not have any std.cap. magazines for them, buys some of those REBUILD kits , puts them together and uses it just like any other magazines?

DO THEY HAVE TO RUN AROUND WITH SOME KIND OF A PROOF THAT THEY HAD THEM BEFORE THE YEAR 2000?

Yes, I DO KNOW WHAT THEY DID WRONG.

But do they have to have the proof that they did everything right?

Or someone bought some OLD GI "REBUILD KITS" and put them together. Do they need to have photos of them holding those magazines in 1999?

no they don't.

AKSOG
01-07-2013, 1:04 PM
Agreed.
Where's Librarian at? He's locked other threads for far less than what's in this one.

The guy got his answer, but is now just trolling.

I second this.

tcrpe
01-07-2013, 1:07 PM
I hear the sound of a loophole slamming shut.

IVC
01-07-2013, 1:20 PM
Or they would check gunbroker and UPS shipping records and see that you just bought the parts.

First, we are talking about 3+ year old purchases so it would be actually *disproving* the DA's point. Second, the UPS doesn't know what's inside packages and it's highly unlikely a judge would issue a subpoena to any vendor under these circumstances.

Let's face it. Regulating ammunition magazines relates to crime like regulating the number of cup holders in a car does to drunk driving. These magazine restrictions need to be struck down since they are wrong on so many levels.

IVC
01-07-2013, 1:34 PM
I don't think it's fair to suggest that volume sales indicates illegal behavior at all.

You are correct in principle, but businesses get targeted all the time in gun unfriendly states. Bloomberg even had an official strategy of trying to bankrupt gun related business through endless litigation. It was an act of Congress that was required in order to stop this practice.

Here is how a simple *business* analysis would work. A magazine manufacturer produces X number of magazines and Y number of repair kits that are needed for standard maintenance. The number Y is a small fraction of number X, since magazines are relatively reliable. Now, the same manufacturer enters CA market where they sell (X + Y) rebuild kits (normalized per capita) and zero magazines.

This would be enough of a "hint" for an unfriendly DA to start an investigation which wouldn't be considered frivolous. Regardless of the outcome, the manufacturer became a test case. That's what's at stake for them.

kaligaran
01-07-2013, 4:31 PM
You are correct in principle, but businesses get targeted all the time in gun unfriendly states. Bloomberg even had an official strategy of trying to bankrupt gun related business through endless litigation. It was an act of Congress that was required in order to stop this practice.

Here is how a simple *business* analysis would work. A magazine manufacturer produces X number of magazines and Y number of repair kits that are needed for standard maintenance. The number Y is a small fraction of number X, since magazines are relatively reliable. Now, the same manufacturer enters CA market where they sell (X + Y) rebuild kits (normalized per capita) and zero magazines.

This would be enough of a "hint" for an unfriendly DA to start an investigation which wouldn't be considered frivolous. Regardless of the outcome, the manufacturer became a test case. That's what's at stake for them.

It's always a sad day that you can sell a legal product and be sued for illegal use of said product (like suing Budweiser for a drunk driving accident).

But I see what you're saying and it makes me cringe. :(

Jeepers
01-07-2013, 4:47 PM
lock it down asked and answered, he will either decide Cali folks $ is just as green as others or not, its his choice no reason to keep this thread going ....


btw other uses for full sized pmags rebuilds in ca is changing the followers for .50 beo and useing them as 10 rounders 100% legal, its up to the end user to use it legally in ca , Weber/redline does not get sued for allowing none smog carbs in cali if you are caught with one on you car its the end user that broke the law and used illegaly and is fined
:beatdeadhorse5:

12voltguy
01-07-2013, 4:58 PM
It's always a sad day that you can sell a legal product and be sued for illegal use of said product (like suing Budweiser for a drunk driving accident).

But I see what you're saying and it makes me cringe. :(

can't do that, people need there booze, E proibition was what 16 years & they gave up.
Now sue the Gun makers for someone killing, yup they do that:facepalm:

skibuff
01-07-2013, 5:18 PM
Answer ONE.. On this premise, YOU call it a "Loophole"... um, Loophole=legal.. Sooo, yes what is your concern?



If people have illegally configured weapons than that's what they get.. As for "POSSESSION" of "hi-cap" magazines.. IF they are attached to an AW (illegal in CA) you may have a problem.
But there is NO law against POSSESSION of "hi-cap" in California..

AS an "owner of 100+ hi-cap magazines" , pre-ban or not, you should also be aware it is illegal to use them in a "un-registered assault-weapon".. only a "featureless rifle"..

But im sure you have never done that..



Why is this your problem?

If people test or break the law that's on them..

Its like saying, How many people with "medical marijuana" cards actually use it for medical purposes?

I don't know.. I don't care.. Both are equally stupid.. (except pot is a FEDERAL crime but CA looks the other way)

Why do you care if law abiding citizens have the same legal standard capacity magazines you do?

Let them get in trouble if they don't follow the rules (or loopholes as you put it) correctly.. Its not like they can make it any worse than it already is...

As for the OP.. If you dont get it by now.. Your not going to.. Pretty soon the FEDs might just want to take yours too.. We have been living in Obamas 2nd term for 20 years..

Get a helmet..

No I have never used one of my pre 2000 mag in anything other than one of the RAWs it works for.

I have no problem with a person that actually purchased a hi cap mag prior to 2000 using it in a featureless, a RAW or handgun. It is the featureless guns with hi cap mags that came in to CA as rebuild kits and everyone is pretending they owned it prior to 2000. Why don't you step up and build a featureless with a PMag.

I said nothing of the ranger taking legally configured guns. He aggressively enforces the law frequently using the CA guns flow chart and backing it by PC. There are way to many people that go into a gun store buy a rebuild kit assemble it and think they have a legal hi cap mag.

I want hi cap mag to be legal in CA again for everyone and I want RAWs to be available to everyone and called Semi Auto rifles not AW's . I feel using loopholes and breaking laws only damages gun rights and does nothing to further it.

ar15robert
01-07-2013, 6:53 PM
IMO i do own a RAW and many pre ban mags.But to a cop or ranger on land while shooting it thinks its alot easier to prove my mags were owned before 2000 if i am using alm bodied ones vs the newer p mag style hi caps.
Some think the Cops are that dumb to know P mags were not made before 2000 and a shooter of one "claims to have found one".LOL yeh yeh i know burden of proof lies on them but that may also result in going to court for them to prove that they get free representation while we have to pay to prove ourselves.But many can talk behind the keyboard and that same person may freeze up when on the spot in person.

tcrpe
01-07-2013, 7:45 PM
IMO i do own a RAW and many pre ban mags.But to a cop or ranger on land while shooting it thinks its alot easier to prove my mags were owned before 2000 if i am using alm bodied ones vs the newer p mag style hi caps.
Some think the Cops are that dumb to know P mags were not made before 2000 and a shooter of one "claims to have found one".LOL yeh yeh i know burden of proof lies on them but that may also result in going to court for them to prove that they get free representation while we have to pay to prove ourselves.But many can talk behind the keyboard and that same person may freeze up when on the spot in person.

Agreed, I have three pre-ban high cap mags. I don't take them out of the safe. Don't need the drama.

rolo
01-08-2013, 10:21 AM
Or they would check gunbroker and UPS shipping records and see that you just bought the parts.

If they're subpoenaing records from gunbroker and ups, the person has far worse things to worry about than possession of >10 round magazines.

Saym14
01-08-2013, 11:17 AM
die thread die

Press Check
01-08-2013, 5:41 PM
+1.... I lost count how many times I see young people buying rebuild kits online on guns that manufacture after 2000 (M&P, Springfield XD, Ruger SR9, Walther PPQ, etc..) and use it to shoot at the range. The only thing i hear from them over and over and over again is "POSSESSION is not illegal''. You just bought the freaking M&P a week ago and now you in possession of 4 hi cap mags and telling me that you found it on the ground at the range. :facepalm: Check out the handgun gallery section if you dont believe me. :facepalm:

Was your assignment to patrol the local range and harass patrons regarding the use of standard-capacity pistol magazines? As I always say, no one is under any obligation to speak with LE, so I find it odd that anyone spoke to you, or offered an explanation at all. Had you confronted me about a pistol magazine at the range, I'd have kindly told you to mind your business. Had you persisted, I'd have told you to go pound sand.

Note the use of "standard-capacity" magazines above. Stop perpetuating the propaganda.