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View Full Version : What could we accomplish with an army of lawyers?


NotEnufGarage
01-04-2013, 1:40 PM
I was listening to the Tom Sullivan show and they were discussing the plight of the young and unemployed. Apparently, about 1/2 of the new lawyers out there can't find meaningful employment. In one case an employer received 1200 applications from members of the Bar for a rather menial position.

Is there some way the 2A movement could capitalize on this vast untapped resource? Granted, not all of these unemployed attorneys are pro-2A, but I'd bet at least 10% of them are.

How could we utilize them to slow down the legislative wheels, speed up the activity in the courts or just gum up the regulatory works? What would this kind of endeavor cost if it was done on a bare bones basis.

I'm not thinking of utilizing these attorneys in the big chess game being played by "those in the know", rather as some kind of flanking force to knock our opponents back on their heels and destabilize either their legislative, regulatory or fund raising activities....

Think outside the box.

NotEnufGarage
01-04-2013, 8:08 PM
57 views and not a single comment? Wow...

Gunlawyer
01-04-2013, 8:15 PM
Nice thinking outside of the box. New lawyers Re realllly wet behind their ears. lol

Maybe better would be legal internahips for 2nd year students to help people and do research memorandums for Calguns staff and attorneys. Alot of time is simply legal research. If a 2nd year could siphon through volumes and we could get a library of memorandums of law on these issues this could really help IMHO.

skeej
01-05-2013, 8:06 PM
This idea came up a couple of days ago here. (http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2013/01/daniel-zimmerman/calling-all-pro-2a-attorneys/)

BRoss
01-05-2013, 8:44 PM
Pro-2A attorneys (and law students) should also join the American Bar Association 2A Civil Rights Lit Subcommittee.


http://www.volokh.com/2012/03/28/american-bar-associations-second-amendment-civil-rights-litigation-subcommittee/ (http://www.volokh.com/2012/03/28/american-bar-associations-second-amendment-civil-rights-litigation-subcommittee/)

nothing4u
01-05-2013, 9:05 PM
It be a good way to fund more lobbyist for our cause. Even better if they setup a NPO for tax exemptions.

anthonyca
01-05-2013, 9:22 PM
Pro-2A attorneys (and law students) should also join the American Bar Association 2A Civil Rights Lit Subcommittee.


http://www.volokh.com/2012/03/28/american-bar-associations-second-amendment-civil-rights-litigation-subcommittee/ (http://www.volokh.com/2012/03/28/american-bar-associations-second-amendment-civil-rights-litigation-subcommittee/)

Great to hear!

Non lawyer here. I have been asking about this for years and no one had heard of any such thing.

Tincon
01-05-2013, 9:31 PM
Honestly one really good lawyer is worth ∞ not very good lawyers, and most lawyers are just not very good. A bunch of second rate lawyers (the kind that can't find work) running amok with 2A litigation would do much more harm than good.

hoffmang
01-06-2013, 7:48 PM
Honestly one really good lawyer is worth ∞ not very good lawyers, and most lawyers are just not very good. A bunch of second rate lawyers (the kind that can't find work) running amok with 2A litigation would do much more harm than good.

This. Right now the most important thing we could do is to clone Alan Gura in place. Not being able to do that, the law here remains to fragile and too controversial to win on quantity versus quality.

That will change, but the events of the last 30 days have moved that change out as much as 36 months beyond the 3-4 years I would have expected before.

-Gene

bohoki
01-06-2013, 8:20 PM
its hard to get standing to make a case against old laws but when they make new laws you can fight them and the precedent can have an effect on old ones

CAL.BAR
01-06-2013, 9:11 PM
Yep - a newly minted lawyer is really just a waste of space. More of them = more so.

Barriss
01-06-2013, 10:53 PM
I'm a veteran, NRA member, and I recently found out that I passed the July 2012 California Bar Exam (my first attempt).

I was actually spending some time on the forum tonight looking for ideas or leads on how I can help preserve our 2nd Amendment rights in the face of this unprecedented onslaught. Then I see this thread.

Thanks for insulting me and other hungry/new lawyers out there like me who want to do what we can to make a difference.

kf6tac
01-06-2013, 11:13 PM
Yep - a newly minted lawyer is really just a waste of space. More of them = more so.

Every rockstar lawyer today was a newly-minted lawyer at one time. If everyone had taken the attitude that they were just a waste of space, they wouldn't be where they are today, either. That doesn't mean we should just grab a bunch of newly-admitted lawyers and let them first-chair 2A litigation, but surely there must be a spot for them somewhere on the legal front in a legal capacity.

OneAvgWhiteGuy
01-06-2013, 11:38 PM
Who's going to pay them? Or do you expect them to work for free?

kf6tac
01-06-2013, 11:45 PM
Who's going to pay them? Or do you expect them to work for free?

Given a choice between getting legal experience with no pay versus getting no experience for no pay, I'm sure some would choose to do some work for free. Some would probably even choose to do free legal work over doing non-legal work for minimum wage. Contingent upon need, of course. If the legal teams that are driving 2A litigation truly don't have any tasks that are suited for newly admitted attorneys, then there's no point.

NotEnufGarage
01-07-2013, 1:17 AM
This. Right now the most important thing we could do is to clone Alan Gura in place. Not being able to do that, the law here remains to fragile and too controversial to win on quantity versus quality.

That will change, but the events of the last 30 days have moved that change out as much as 36 months beyond the 3-4 years I would have expected before.

-Gene

My original thought was not to have a bunch of newbies working on the carefully crafted strategic cases, but rather to put tens, hundreds or thousands of them to work on some type of tangent that is independent of those cases but serves to help us by keeping the opposition tied down in answering pleadings, producing evidence, replying to document requests, or whatever we can do to distract, confound and confuse them to our advantage.

Think of this as more of a flanking maneuver executed by an independent army to force the opposition to pull soldiers off their front line in order to protect their soft underbelly.

hoffmang
01-07-2013, 7:58 PM
My original thought was not to have a bunch of newbies working on the carefully crafted strategic cases, but rather to put tens, hundreds or thousands of them to work on some type of tangent that is independent of those cases but serves to help us by keeping the opposition tied down in answering pleadings, producing evidence, replying to document requests, or whatever we can do to distract, confound and confuse them to our advantage.

Think of this as more of a flanking maneuver executed by an independent army to force the opposition to pull soldiers off their front line in order to protect their soft underbelly.

We don't win or lose on the facts - we win or lose on the law. As such, there just really isn't a lot of scut work there. I mean, there aren't a lot of facts in doubt about how e.g. the handgun roster is actually administered.

SAF is running a nationwide local government project in more purple and red states with younger talent as they're forcing adhesion to usually preemption laws, but those are more mop up operations and not things that move the strategic front of what RKBA actually means.

-Gene

Stewdabaker23
01-07-2013, 8:18 PM
Army of lawyers = really expensive bill.

ziegenbock
01-07-2013, 8:58 PM
I'm a veteran, NRA member, and I recently found out that I passed the July 2012 California Bar Exam (my first attempt).

I was actually spending some time on the forum tonight looking for ideas or leads on how I can help preserve our 2nd Amendment rights in the face of this unprecedented onslaught. Then I see this thread.

Thanks for insulting me and other hungry/new lawyers out there like me who want to do what we can to make a difference.

Grow the hell up, this is a dam internet board.

Now, congrats on passing the exam, this is a really cool. Make sure you join the ABA sub-committee and send Gene an email to ask what you can do.

ziegenbock
01-07-2013, 8:58 PM
I'm a veteran, NRA member, and I recently found out that I passed the July 2012 California Bar Exam (my first attempt).

I was actually spending some time on the forum tonight looking for ideas or leads on how I can help preserve our 2nd Amendment rights in the face of this unprecedented onslaught. Then I see this thread.

Thanks for insulting me and other hungry/new lawyers out there like me who want to do what we can to make a difference.

Grow the hell up, this is a dam internet board.

Now, congrats on passing the exam, this is a really cool. Make sure you join the ABA sub-committee and send Gene an email to ask what you can do.

mpwang
01-07-2013, 9:52 PM
I hope I'm right in assuming there's always work to be done.

but I think I'm right in believing most of the stuff that can be done is being in our communities, sticking up for the 2A and the constitution -- being eloquent in articulating why we hold what we do. A lot of it is also taking anti's shooting (because EVERYONE needs to know safe handling) and showing that gun owners aren't compensating for small egos or evildoers who play kick the puppy, but are just responsible people who want to protect their loved ones and communities. When the attacks on gun ownership are based on public opinion and our largest ally (the NRA) is seen as a group of rearded, firebreathing, backwater idiots the media makes them out to be, it's up to us to counter.

Perhaps it is my naivete, but I do think young lawyers have a role to play. Too bad they've been told there's an easy corporate job waiting for them after graduation. I don't know about you all, but I'd love to work with Alan Gura one day, even if it is to fetch his coffee and hear him speak.

But we must also realize one thing: No matter how good of a lawyer he is, Alan Gura will eventually retire/pass away. The SAF, CGF, RKBA, and NRA movements must plan for this and bring new blood into the fold. Often in human history movements, organizations, and associations put a guy up on a pedestal and not plan for what happens afterward. The ABA subcommittee is great- but with the resources here we should be able to bring new lawyers to who want to use their expensive talents for the betterment of the 2A as well as the rest of the Constitution.

Barriss
01-09-2013, 12:37 AM
Grow the hell up, this is a dam internet board.

Now, congrats on passing the exam, this is a really cool. Make sure you join the ABA sub-committee and send Gene an email to ask what you can do.

Thanks but no thanks. I'll be devoting my effort toward a different direction.

Wherryj
01-09-2013, 1:05 PM
Nice thinking outside of the box. New lawyers Re realllly wet behind their ears. lol

Maybe better would be legal internahips for 2nd year students to help people and do research memorandums for Calguns staff and attorneys. Alot of time is simply legal research. If a 2nd year could siphon through volumes and we could get a library of memorandums of law on these issues this could really help IMHO.

This is the real issue. I would be willing to donate to a fund to clone Alan Gura, however.

Begun, the Clone Wars have.

hoffmang
01-09-2013, 3:09 PM
But we must also realize one thing: No matter how good of a lawyer he is, Alan Gura will eventually retire/pass away. The SAF, CGF, RKBA, and NRA movements must plan for this and bring new blood into the fold.

There is a key foundation building that is happening right now. If you wanted to litigate against local first amendment restrictions in 1935, it was hard. The same types of cases brought today are a LOT easier and a lot less fraught with screwing up 1A jurisprudence.

The goal here is to push from 2008 to about 2018 and when that's said and done, there will be plenty of binding precedent making it less likely to need such strong experts for every case.

Some of this is starting to happen in e.g. Illinois, where the early win in Ezell is making it so even lawyers that I'd hardly rate a D- are prevailing on novel claims that are nonetheless supported by Ezell/McDonald/Heller.

The 9th Circuit will get better too, but we've either got to get our Ezell or one or two more SCOTUS cases.

-Gene

mpwang
01-09-2013, 3:24 PM
There is a key foundation building that is happening right now. If you wanted to litigate against local first amendment restrictions in 1935, it was hard. The same types of cases brought today are a LOT easier and a lot less fraught with screwing up 1A jurisprudence.

The goal here is to push from 2008 to about 2018 and when that's said and done, there will be plenty of binding precedent making it less likely to need such strong experts for every case.

Some of this is starting to happen in e.g. Illinois, where the early win in Ezell is making it so even lawyers that I'd hardly rate a D- are prevailing on novel claims that are nonetheless supported by Ezell/McDonald/Heller.

The 9th Circuit will get better too, but we've either got to get our Ezell or one or two more SCOTUS cases.

-Gene

Sweet! I'm glad there's a lot of stuff going on! Anything good is worth taking time for.

Tincon
01-09-2013, 5:43 PM
We don't win or lose on the facts - we win or lose on the law.


I'm not sure I agree with you on that one. There are plenty of avenues to approach RKBA litigation that would be heavily fact dependent. For example, the dormant commerce clause could be used to attack the prohibition on sales of normal capacity magazines here in CA. There is an obvious resultant burden on interstate commerce, and the success of the suit would therefore rest on the argument that the burden on interstate commerce is clearly excessive in relation to the putative local benefits. This is a heavily fact dependent argument as the law on dormant commerce clause is well settled. The 2nd amendment is not the only avenue that can be used to defeat these laws, and it is important not to take a myopic viewpoint.

That said, there is even more room to screw up in a case that is dependent on facts as there is in a case where the law is not quite as settled. We don't want ineffective representation on any of these issues. Further, an excellent attorney understands that his (or her) performance and strategy will be at their peak when he fully immerses himself in the facts and the law. That means doing one's own research, not handing it off to some junior person and relying on their results and interpretation. Even the discovery process can be highly important to the overall strategy of a case, and a mistake there can be a deciding factor in the outcome. There is just no room for error.

I also would like to point out that experience, particularly the number of days a person has had a bar card, is just one of the many facets of a great lawyer. Education is a another, but intelligence and aptitude for the law far outweigh both. Reputation and credibility are also important. In any case I would not dismiss someone merely because they are "wet behind their ears".