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View Full Version : The AR-15 is poorly suited for hunting and home defense


jdberger
01-04-2013, 1:59 AM
- or at least that's what Slate author Justin Peters claims.

The NRA Claims the AR-15 Is Useful for Hunting and Home Defense. Not Exactly. (http://www.slate.com/blogs/crime/2013/01/02/gun_control_ar_15_rifle_the_nra_claims_the_ar_15_r ifle_is_for_hunting_and.html)

Of course, he offers up his bona fides as a "Second Amendment Supporter", but....

I generally consider myself a Second Amendment supporter, and I havenít yet decided where I stand on post-Newtown gun control. I would own a gun if New York City laws didnít make it extremely difficult to do so. But I nevertheless find Keeneís arguments disingenuous. Itís odd to cite hunting and home defense as reasons to keep selling a rifle thatís not particularly well suited, and definitely not necessary, for either.

Possibly the best part of the article is this response in the comments section:

endthedrugwar
Great article, though I still prefer the old days when journalists would actually research the subject they were writing about, and check their writing to make sure they weren't contradicting themselves.

My favorite part is when Peters says in paragraph three that bolt action rifles and shotguns (which are as long as an AR-15) can be used for home defense, while saying in paragraph six that the AR-15 is not a self-defense weapon because it is too long to maneuver inside a house. It's impressive writing, being able to simultaneously contradict himself on whether a rifle can be used indoors, while also apparently believing criminals only attack people indoors but never outside. He also leaves out that police routinely use the AR-15 when clearing houses and buildings, and don't seem to have any trouble with it. But of course he would have had to do some actual research, or just used common sense, to know that.

I also like where he claims a handgun is a better self-defense weapon without actually explaining why, and that the .223 round that most AR-15 rifles use has insufficient power for hunting anything other than small game animals, yet somehow is still also capable of over penetrating walls in houses. He could have spent 4 seconds typing '9mm .223 wall penetration' in Google, which would have brought up multiple articles on 9mm handgun and .223 AR-15 rifle rounds being fired through drywall, and which showed that many regular .223 rifle rounds (not the fragmenting rounds Peters claims would be needed) were often no worse than 9mm handgun rounds when it came to over penetration, and in some cases even less likely to over penetrate than 9mm handgun rounds or shotgun buckshot. He also forgot to mention that the AR-15 can be had in more powerful cartridges than .223, such as the .308, which is a popular deer hunting cartridge. But why bother with a few minutes of pesky research on the subject he was writing about, when he could just write. It's okay, I'm sure he had a deadline to make.

I like the fifth paragraph, too. Here Peters cites a post by someone, on some article, on some hunting website, who doesn't like AR-15s, as if it were some definitive truth, rather than being about as definitive as the rambling of an overly opinionated bar patron, while Peters simultaneously ignores the other posters on that same article who disagreed. Another sterling example of journalism in the internet age.

Then there's Peters' ramblings about gun manufacturers promoting the AR-15 as it is such a lucrative product for them, because apparently in Peters' world, corporations normally never promote their popular products, just the less popular ones.

If Peters had done that few minutes of Google research, he would have found out that when ever possible, long arms are preferred to handguns for self-defense, because their ability to be braced against the shooter's shoulder using their stock, makes them more stable and easier to aim, with less fine muscle control required. Very handy in a stressful self-defense situation. This is not always possible of course, since sometimes people want to carry discreetly, and a rifle just won't fit in a pants pocket or a shoulder holster. But for home-defense that's not an issue. With research Peters would have also found out the AR-15 has much less recoil than a shotgun. Also more ideal for self-defense.

If Peters had any intellectual honesty, he wouldn't have even written the last paragraph where he claimed that the semi-automatic AR-15 was designed to, quote "engage the enemy at a rapid rate of fire", and so was only being used in its intended role at Sandy Hook. Actually it is machine guns like the M-16 which were designed to do that. If semi-automatic rifles had sufficient performance to equal a machine gun, then the military wouldn't bother with machine guns now would they? Of course Peters is a self-professed 2nd amendment supporter, which he apparently thinks somehow means his opinion must be right on all things gun related, no matter how ill-informed and contradictory said opinion is.

Finally had Peters maintained any intellectual honesty, he would have pointed out that most mass murderers use semi-automatic pistols, not semi-automatic rifles. And that the worse mass shooting was the 32 killed at Virginia Tech, which was 6 more than were killed at Sandy Hook, and it was done with two semi-automatic handguns, one using 10 round magazines and the other 15 round magazines, not a semi-automatic rifle with 30 or 100 round magazines. If Peters said both semi-automatic rifles and semi-automatic handguns were only good for mass murder, he would at least have been consistent with this BS article. Instead he claims semi-automatic handguns are just fine for self-defense, but semi-automatic rifles are not. I suppose Slate could try sending him back to journalism school, but there's no guarantee that would help.

The Wingnut
01-04-2013, 2:14 AM
Nice. Hopefully that rag of a mag will leave endthedrugwar's comment up there.

kimber_ss
01-04-2013, 2:24 AM
MSM journalism school is a sham. It turns out biased information gathering based on a single minded goal. And what goal is that? Hmmm.....

Extra411
01-04-2013, 2:27 AM
Incredibly misinformed article.
This stupid BS about "assault weapons" really needs to stop. The fact that they are even being discussed as a somehow legitimate subset of firearms is pissing me off to no end. And I hope all those obtuse egotistic "Semi-Autos-Are-For-Newbz" hunters would eventually grow enough brain cells to comprehend that they are directly contributing to the destruction of the Second Amendment.

Yes, reading these kind of articles makes me go Hulk.

myk
01-04-2013, 2:29 AM
Well, that's their opinion. My opinion is that I'll use whatever goddamn firearm I feel like using for home defense or hunting because it's my goddamn right.

It's my RIGHT, what part of the 2nd Amendment do these idiots not comprehend? Keep your opinions and agendas off of my RIGHTS...

SiegeX
01-04-2013, 3:43 AM
Well, that's their opinion. My opinion is that I'll use whatever goddamn firearm I feel like using for home defense or hunting because it's my goddamn right.

It's my RIGHT, what part of the 2nd Amendment do these idiots not comprehend? Keep your opinions and agendas off of my RIGHTS...

I 100% agree with this even though I also 100% disagree that the AR platform is well suited for a home invasion with respect to a shotgun. But as you said, it's your life, you have every right to choose how to defend it.

mosinnagantm9130
01-04-2013, 3:54 AM
Very good response.

SuperSet
01-04-2013, 4:05 AM
Well reasoned and versed response that just destroyed the credibility of the author. I like it!

Nodda Duma
01-04-2013, 4:27 AM
I ought to go into journalism and tell nothing but facts and truth. It'd be unique and refreshing and I'd probably become very successful (or more likely ostracized).

myk
01-04-2013, 4:31 AM
I ought to go into journalism and tell nothing but facts and truth. It'd be unique and refreshing and I'd probably become very successful (or more likely ostracized).

I don't think the world is ready for something so revolutionary as the truth-have some mercy on your fellow man, brother...

Stewdabaker23
01-04-2013, 4:51 AM
The AR platform is one of the most popular hunting rifles in America.

victor1echo
01-04-2013, 4:53 AM
When I think of home defense --its after the fall and I will gaurding my property, not shooting an intruder.

anthonyca
01-04-2013, 7:00 AM
The second amendment is not about hunting, unless we run a high risk of rabbits or deer threatening the security of our free state.

tcrpe
01-04-2013, 7:07 AM
The AR platform is one of the most popular hunting rifles in America.

I keep seeing this claim.

fizux
01-04-2013, 7:08 AM
I really appreciate that he felt this characterization was somehow relevant, or anything more that a smear designed to marginalize a whole segment of society:

Adam Lanzaís mother, Nancy Lanza, has been described as ďa gun-hoarding survivalist who was stockpiling weapons in preparation for an economic collapse.Ē

When you can't win on facts, pound the table. This guy has probably never seen an AR-15 in real life, so anyone that owns one must be a gun nut.

His expertise on the suitability of the AR-15 platform is summed up by the following credential:

I would own a gun if New York City laws didnít make it extremely difficult to do so.

More gun control is definitely the answer.

fizux
01-04-2013, 7:18 AM
The second amendment is not about hunting, unless we run a high risk of rabbits or deer threatening the security of our free state.

I agree in principle; however, if we keep going down the gun ban road, you may need to rethink your position in light of this WSJ story. (http://live.wsj.com/public/page/embed-53858CE7_310F_4210_99E4_DE51E2AEB8AA.html)

SanPedroShooter
01-04-2013, 7:21 AM
I really appreciate that he felt this characterization was somehow relevant, or anything more that a smear designed to marginalize a whole segment of society:



When you can't win on facts, pound the table. This guy has probably never seen an AR-15 in real life, so anyone that owns one must be a gun nut.

His expertise on the suitability of the AR-15 platform is summed up by the following credential:



More gun control is definitely the answer.

Yeah thats a great bit of journalism there... Where do you suppose that bit of slander about Lanza's mother came from? The headline of the NY Post?

'When you dont have the truth, pound on the law. When you dont have the law, pound on the table..."

I think that is the full quote.

Mitch
01-04-2013, 7:27 AM
endthedrugwar obviously studied at the HL Mencken School of Expository Writing. I'm reading Mencken's Chrestomathy right now. The man was brutal, just brutal. It's a shame he's almost forgotten today.

Tarn_Helm
01-04-2013, 7:31 AM
I don't think the world is ready for something so revolutionary as the truth-have some mercy on your fellow man, brother...

Remember back in school how the history books or the occasional film would mention something about the ancient Greeks and how intelligent and wise they were?

Well, that overstated the case. It was not the entire population of Greece that was wise but only a sub-population.

A tiny group of Greeks out of the total population pursued greater understanding.

They called themselves "philosophers."

The first philosopher to really get famous in ancient Greece was Socrates, who lived in Athens.

His fellow Greeks thought so much of him that they could not stand it and decided to end his career on a high note.

Read this: The trial and execution of Socrates (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trial_of_Socrates).

He invented something that we call today "cross-examination."

When executed effectively upon an opponent, cross-examination is has such a powerful persuasive effect on an audience (or readership) and such a humiliating effect upon the target, that it can earn the cross-examiner a death sentence.

Nowadays it can earn you millions of dollars.

If you use it effectively as a lawyer in courtroom.

The OP in fact quoted a fellow who uses another Socratic trick: Socratic irony.

He pretends to agree (or not understand) and then points out glaring contradictions, much to the amusement of us, the readers, and to the humiliation of the writer.

Let's write in to that site and comment in Socratic style.
:cool:

javalos
01-04-2013, 7:35 AM
.223 Rem is used for varmints all the time. I live in a rural area and when I had chickens, I kept an AR-15 on hand to take out predators, when you have chickens, just about everything is a predator, coyote, racoon, foxes, etc.

Not suited for self-defense? Military's all over the world use the .223 round, is that guy who wrote that high?

Mulay El Raisuli
01-04-2013, 8:23 AM
I ought to go into journalism and tell nothing but facts and truth. It'd be unique and refreshing and I'd probably become very successful (or more likely ostracized).


You'd likely be chased out of town with pitchforks & torches.


The Raisuli

SanPedroShooter
01-04-2013, 8:28 AM
They deem him their worst enemy who tells them the truth

Plato

Another good one is 'a man that tells nothing but the truth would be deemed a public enemy and driven into exile'

Or something like that. It may have been Mark Twain

donw
01-04-2013, 9:17 AM
if the .223 , as the author asserts, is too anemic for SD/HD, then why does LE use it?

i also remember a Vietnam veteran claiming the 9 mm "Is to anemic" for combat/SD/HD...

"The best defense", a program on the outdoor channel, did an episode by Rod Pincus, about penetration featuring the 12 ga shotgun, 9mm handgun, 45acp and the .223 when encountering a common wall as found in today's houses and today's refrigerators (the refer they used was empty so a full refer might degrade penetration (?)) when comparing "Cover vs concealment"...

the 9mm was top in penetration followed by the 223, 45acp and the 12 ga last...

a close relative attended a LE academy in Wyoming and they as a training/demonstration exercise, shot up a car...again the 9mm was the top in penetration.

that journalist need to do some "Homework" i'd say.

russ69
01-04-2013, 9:22 AM
The AR platform is one of the most popular hunting rifles in America.

If it's good enough to hunt men, it's good enough to hunt game.

TeddyBallgame
01-04-2013, 9:25 AM
Well, that's their opinion. My opinion is that I'll use whatever goddamn firearm I feel like using for home defense or hunting because it's my goddamn right.

It's my RIGHT, what part of the 2nd Amendment do these idiots not comprehend? Keep your opinions and agendas off of my RIGHTS...Amen to that :) totally up to you...if you want to use yesterdays stinky sock, or, jock strap as your home defense, that's your right...gets old and annoying, other people telling us how to protect ourselves

Mitch
01-04-2013, 9:26 AM
Another good one is 'a man that tells nothing but the truth would be deemed a public enemy and driven into exile'

Or something like that. It may have been Mark Twain

As a matter of fact, Mencken (see above) said something along those lines:

ďThe men the American people admire most extravagantly are the most daring liars; the men they detest most violently are those who try to tell them the truth.Ē

ap3572001
01-04-2013, 9:29 AM
I am tired of some people making false statements about AR-15 style rifles.

1). AR style rifle are used for hunting all over the place. They make a GREAT varmint rifle platform. Also You can have a couple of uppers and one lower if You have a need for more than one caliber.

2). AR's are GREAT self defense rifles . Most people in my department like them a lot.

3). AR-15's are VERY, VERY popular sporting rifles. Just go to any High Power rifles match.

4). Rifles that are based on AR platform are also VERY politicly correct (probably the MOST politicly correct rifles) since they are used by our own Armed Forces and LE.

So I really don't know what is so wrong with an AR-15.

H Paul Payne
01-04-2013, 9:29 AM
The AR platform is one of the most popular hunting rifles in America.I keep seeing this claim.

And your point is.....????

BTW, I used Federal Premium .223 ammo with 60 grain Nosler Partition bullets. The mule deer fell at 310 yards and the whitetails both went down at 175 yards.

Paul

Damn True
01-04-2013, 9:31 AM
Strange that police, sheriffs and the military find AR pattern rifles perfectly suited for engaging bad guys in enclosed spaces yet this genius finds them inappropriate for said purpose.

Moonshine
01-04-2013, 9:38 AM
As for hunting, popular hunting platforms often follow military rifles of the time. When the Mauser was introduced bolt guns became more popular and the m-1 garand lead to the use of semi-auto rifles in hunting. Over the past 5 or so years the AR-15 platform has become extremely popular for hunting... Why would rifles be chambered in hunting cartridges like .308 and .243 if they weren't being used for hunting? Heck I've seen bolt action rifles in .223 used to hunt deer why could a mil spec AR-15 be used?

Creeping Incrementalism
01-04-2013, 9:43 AM
And I hope all those obtuse egotistic "Semi-Autos-Are-For-Newbz" hunters would eventually grow enough brain cells to comprehend that they are directly contributing to the destruction of the Second Amendment.

Yeah, note that the article took a quote from a comment on NRA's AmericanHunter.com where some Fudd using British spelling who hunts in Africa said he was into old-school hunting and thought hunting with an AR-15 was for wannabe Rambos.

Mitch
01-04-2013, 9:45 AM
So I really don't know what is so wrong with an AR-15.

The sproingy sound the buffer makes in your ear when you fire it. I hate that. Also the charging handle.

tcrpe
01-04-2013, 9:50 AM
And your point is.....????



Simple, I see this claim all the time, yet have never encountered any hunter using one in the field.

H Paul Payne
01-04-2013, 9:53 AM
Simple, I see this claim all the time, yet have never encountered any hunter using one in the field.

Then, come hunting with me. I'll let you use one of my AR15s. Do you like venison?

Did you have a chance to check-out the pictures in my post (above)?

Paul

Mitch
01-04-2013, 9:53 AM
Simple, I see this claim all the time, yet have never encountered any hunter using one in the field.

Well, several have appeared in this very thread. And Remington makes these:

http://blogs.roanoke.com/wildlife/files/2012/12/hunting-ARs.jpg

And I urge you to read this very good article (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/03/business/yourmoney/03rifle.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0) from the New York Times, of all places.

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2007/06/03/business/600-rifle-01.jpg

Uranium238
01-04-2013, 10:04 AM
Regarding the home defense and over penetration issue, can't that be resolved with lighter grain JHP or Vmax?

vincewarde
01-04-2013, 10:13 AM
The bottom line is that the anti-gun rights crowd is attempting to split the gun owning public so people that own rifles of older designs think, "I don't have anything to worry about, they are only after those evil assault weapons". Will this work? I highly doubt it. They just do not under stand that when every soldier for almost 50 years has been trained on this platform, that lots, and lots of even older shooters are not going to buy their argument. It's a very old tactic that the NRA has beaten many times before.

tcrpe
01-04-2013, 10:16 AM
I don't doubt for a minute that AR15s are used hunting, especially for small game, but still I've never seen one in the field.

And for the deer, .243?

I've got a thing for camo guns.

Let's go hunting!

ap3572001
01-04-2013, 10:24 AM
The bottom line is that the anti-gun rights crowd is attempting to split the gun owning public so people that own rifles of older designs think, "I don't have anything to worry about, they are only after those evil assault weapons". Will this work? I highly doubt it. They just do not under stand that when every soldier for almost 50 years has been trained on this platform, that lots, and lots of even older shooters are not going to buy their argument. It's a very old tactic that the NRA has beaten many times before.

Agree.

Also anti-gun rights crowd has no business to talk about subjects that they know nothing about.

aileron
01-04-2013, 10:28 AM
I keep seeing this claim.

http://www.ssarmory.com/success.aspx

6.8 is pretty popular in the AR platform for hunting. The medias idea that no one hunts with them is a joke.

Moonshine
01-04-2013, 10:35 AM
There was a whole article on AR-15 hunting in Guns & Ammo not that long ago. And lets not forget the AR-15 has become THE go to rifle for varminting and predator hunting.

Mitch
01-04-2013, 10:44 AM
The bottom line is that the anti-gun rights crowd is attempting to split the gun owning public so people that own rifles of older designs think, "I don't have anything to worry about, they are only after those evil assault weapons". Will this work? I highly doubt it.

It worked in 1994. Since then the AR-15 has permeated all corners of the shooting hobby (even Zumbo has seen the light), and it's unlikely they will be able to divide the community as before.

However, there were a handful of posts here on Calguns from hand-wringers post-Newtown that certainly gave one pause.

Rossi357
01-04-2013, 11:06 AM
I know the 2nd ammendment isn't about hunting, but since the author brought it up......
Whoever says that a .223 isn't good for deer hunting never hunted. I've hunted with everything from a .22 to a 30.06. My favorite is the .22 hornet .45 gr hollow pt. I've killed mule deer and blacktails with it.

epilepticninja
01-04-2013, 11:57 AM
Agree.

Also anti-gun rights crowd has no business to talk about subjects that they know nothing about.

Brother, the anti's love to spread their b.s. They could care less if it is correct or factual.

DannyInSoCal
01-04-2013, 12:05 PM
It depends on your definition of "home invasion" -

By whom - With what weapons...?

Many deer, boar, and big horn sheep can attest to the fact a 6.8 AR is a great hunting weapon...

:43:

stix213
01-04-2013, 12:08 PM
The author, admitting to being someone scared off from gun ownership by a permit process, is poorly suited to be writing an article involving technical details of a firearm he has never held before, but that didn't seem to stop him.

CBruce
01-04-2013, 12:28 PM
The second amendment is not about hunting, unless we run a high risk of rabbits or deer threatening the security of our free state.

No, but it supports the "common use" qualifier of Heller. We didn't prohibit these rifles and now they've become very common and widely used for law-abiding purposes.

Massan
01-04-2013, 12:31 PM
The comments on that page makes me want to bleach my brain. Or theirs.

Californio
01-04-2013, 12:37 PM
Note to Self: Sell shotgun with 18" barrel, it is too long to be effective in the home, advise Police Dept. to do the same, it is longer than a 16" AR carbine.

CCWFacts
01-04-2013, 1:12 PM
The AR-15 is EXCELLENT for both hunting and home defense.

Hunting: In 223 caliber, depending on state laws, it can be used for animals up to deer size. With a 22 rimfire upper, it can be used for hunting smaller animals. With 6.8 SPC uppers, it can be used for deer and larger animals. With the various 50 cal uppers (Beowulf, 50 BMG) it could be used for hunting any animal on the planet. One light-weight lower with a good trigger, and one or two uppers can be the most flexible and capable hunting gun ever made.

Home defense: 223 is good enough, and the light weight and lower recoil make it a good or great option for home defense. Shotguns are too heavy and have too much recoil for many shooters. I personally think overpenetration is a pointless concept but for people who believe in it, there are 223 rounds that fragment.

Rossi357
01-04-2013, 1:48 PM
The AR-15 is EXCELLENT for both hunting and home defense.

Hunting: In 223 caliber, depending on state laws, it can be used for animals up to deer size. With a 22 rimfire upper, it can be used for hunting smaller animals. With 6.8 SPC uppers, it can be used for deer and larger animals. With the various 50 cal uppers (Beowulf, 50 BMG) it could be used for hunting any animal on the planet. One light-weight lower with a good trigger, and one or two uppers can be the most flexible and capable hunting gun ever made.

Home defense: 223 is good enough, and the light weight and lower recoil make it a good or great option for home defense. Shotguns are too heavy and have too much recoil for many shooters. I personally think overpenetration is a pointless concept but for people who believe in it, there are 223 rounds that fragment.

A .410 pump with 000 buck would be good for home defense.

Meplat
01-04-2013, 2:31 PM
Bottom line: The best gun for home defense is the one the defender is comfortable with. I personally would not use an AR if I could get my hands on a good shotgun. But to each his own.

REH
01-04-2013, 3:31 PM
I donít really care if the AR platform is good for hunting or home defense. I donít care if it good for anything. My point is itís my second amendment right to own one. I donít want the government telling me what I need and donít need.

If this mind set is allowed, what next? You donít need that car, because it guzzles too much gas. You canít have that drink, because it contains too much sugar, and sugar leads to obesity. No, you canít have that bag of chips, because it contains too much salt, and salt leads to high blood pressure.

It is easy for some reporter to ask the question, why do you need that? They do it because their wish, the government telling us what we need, will not affect them at the time. Let that genie out of the bottle, and it will bite all of us in the a** latter on.

turinreza
01-04-2013, 4:46 PM
Democrats in Illinois already made it clear that they want to ban all guns, handguns,, semiautos. The Cat is out of the bag. They want to get rid of ALL guns.

Hogstir
01-04-2013, 5:38 PM
I don't doubt for a minute that AR15s are used hunting, especially for small game, but still I've never seen one in the field.

And for the deer, .243?

I've got a thing for camo guns.

Let's go hunting!

Ever been predator hunting or watched many shows on it? Ar15 is the favorite gun of a lot of coyote hunters.

And mine is fully camo'ed

Wherryj
01-04-2013, 5:44 PM
If poorly suited then why do more than 80 Countries and thousands of Police and law Enforcement organizations use them then?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M16_rifle

You just made the author's point. The AR-15 IS poorly suited for self-defense. To be truly suited for self-defense, it should be an M16/M4 (ie. select fire).

myk
01-04-2013, 6:12 PM
You just made the author's point. The AR-15 IS poorly suited for self-defense. To be truly suited for self-defense, it should be an M16/M4 (ie. select fire).

Sounds good to me, I'll take two.


If this mind set is allowed, what next? You don’t need that car, because it guzzles too much gas. You can’t have that drink, because it contains too much sugar, and sugar leads to obesity. No, you can’t have that bag of chips, because it contains too much salt, and salt leads to high blood pressure.

We're already there brother. Keep in mind that "large capacity" soda cups and salt are banned/regulated in New York. Do you guys remember when Obama was telling some family man that he should get a more fuel efficient vehicle to cut down on fuel costs? Obama and his cronies want to tell us/control exactly how we live our lives. Obviously, if Myk and all of his other gun-nut friends are armed that's going to be somewhat difficult, so............................

donny77
01-04-2013, 6:17 PM
We need to turn the tables on that argument. If AR-15s are not good for home defense, why do police have them? The police are not in any situations different than an average citizen might find themselves in.

While we are at it, if no one needs a larger than 10 round magazine, why are LEOs exempt? This is simple class warfare and violates equality principles this country was founded on. The police are not liable for your well being, so they have no reason to be better armed than you.

Yes we risk LEOs losing these things to, but at least they will stand with gun owners in fighting it.

wjc
01-04-2013, 7:04 PM
Does the author of the article hunt?

...I thought not.

dfletcher
01-04-2013, 7:47 PM
We need to turn the tables on that argument. If AR-15s are not good for home defense, why do police have them?


I've always asked why is it, if an AR 15 is deadly in the hands of a bad guy, it suddenly becomes of no use for self defense? Does the "evil black rifle" somehow sense the difference between being used for bad as opposed to being used for defense?

The author asserts an AR 15 is not very good for home defense? Well congratulations, it can't be deadly enough to bother controlling than, can it?

BTW, I think we're seeing a new messaging by the gun control people and it is that they assert they're not even in favor of gun control. That gun control isn't their agenda, that gun control doesn't even work all that well and that "guns aren't the problem". In fact, they pretty much support guns.

But they should be done away with nevertheless .... :rolleyes:

Can't recall the movie, it's a a mid-60's Dean Martin's movie & his wife has just caught him in bed with another woman. She storms out of the bedroom. Dean gets dressed, the girlie gets dressed. She walks past the wife and leaves, Dean walks out of the bedroom, sits in a chair and asks "what's for dinner?" The wife is huffy, upset and loudly complains about the other woman, the bed and Dean responds "woman, what woman - honey I don't know what you're talking about ..."

After about 5 minutes of this the wife convinces herself it never happened and all is well.

This is what the Corey Bookers of gun control will do. Their words will have nothing to do with their actions and some gun owners will say "you see, they're on our side after all".

ArcherDog
01-04-2013, 9:34 PM
Liberals say that the AR-15 is a useless rifle that can't be used for hunting or self defense which is why they want to ban them to keep them out of the hands of mass murderers who use them to successfully kill lots of people.

donny77
01-04-2013, 10:21 PM
I've always asked why is it, if an AR 15 is deadly in the hands of a bad guy, it suddenly becomes of no use for self defense? Does the "evil black rifle" somehow sense the difference between being used for bad as opposed to being used for defense?

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2013/01/daniel-zimmerman/its-two-two-two-tools-in-one-or-is-it/

What? You don't know about the A (assault) and D (defense) models? :facepalm:

3RDGEARGRNDRR
01-04-2013, 10:35 PM
Incredibly misinformed article.
This stupid BS about "assault weapons" really needs to stop. The fact that they are even being discussed as a somehow legitimate subset of firearms is pissing me off to no end. And I hope all those obtuse egotistic "Semi-Autos-Are-For-Newbz" hunters would eventually grow enough brain cells to comprehend that they are directly contributing to the destruction of the Second Amendment.

Yes, reading these kind of articles makes me go Hulk.

My thoughts exactly. Well said

And self proclaimed 2A rights activists pining for gun control makes me sick as well. I highly doubt they are actual NRA. Members or have hunted anything but ill deserved attention.

fizux
01-04-2013, 10:47 PM
Yeah thats a great bit of journalism there... Where do you suppose that bit of slander about Lanza's mother came from? The headline of the NY Post?

'When you dont have the truth, pound on the law. When you dont have the law, pound on the table..."

I think that is the full quote.

Yeah, yeah. I used the real quote in a brief earlier this last year, and took some poetic license figuring you'd know what I meant.

Tac driver
01-04-2013, 10:51 PM
Let's see I can take down a deer with a 300 win mag and ruin a bunch of meat.....or use an ar with one well placed shot and recover as much as possible!!! There is a lot of different points of view on this subject and this is just one more.

a1c
01-05-2013, 6:59 AM
This is what happens when there is a huge cultural gap within a certain circle of people.

Slate, a very liberal and smart publication, was unable to bridge that gap and find an AR-owning writer in their ranks to objectively and accurately report about the platform.

a1c
01-05-2013, 7:00 AM
This is what happens when there is a huge cultural gap within a certain circle of people.

Slate, a very liberal and smart publication, was unable to bridge that gap and find an AR-owning writer in their ranks to objectively and accurately report about the platform.

tcrpe
01-05-2013, 7:05 AM
Ever been predator hunting

No.

or watched many shows on it?

No.

Ar15 is the favorite gun of a lot of coyote hunters.

And mine is fully camo'ed

Camo is good.

Mitch
01-05-2013, 9:01 AM
You just made the author's point. The AR-15 IS poorly suited for self-defense. To be truly suited for self-defense, it should be an M16/M4 (ie. select fire).

Full auto has no self defense application. It isn't even very useful for police work.

The purpose of full auto in squad tactics is to provide covering fire for flanking maneuvers. This isn't something you see much in personal defense situations.

I've always asked why is it, if an AR 15 is deadly in the hands of a bad guy, it suddenly becomes of no use for self defense? Does the "evil black rifle" somehow sense the difference between being used for bad as opposed to being used for defense?

This is an old, old dichotomy. Putting aside AR-15s and the like for a moment, what has always confused me was the logic that while it is perfectly legal for me to possess and shoot semi-automatic rifles in California, possession of brass knuckles or a sap for any purpose is banned completely, on the grounds that these are "offensive" weapons. Never mind that a sap in the hand of a woman crossing a parking lot at night would be a superb force multiplier in the event of an attempted assault.

Slate, a very liberal and smart publication, was unable to bridge that gap and find an AR-owning writer in their ranks to objectively and accurately report about the platform.

I'm pretty sure Slate wasn't interested in objectively and accurately reporting on the platform.

donw
01-05-2013, 9:31 AM
We need to turn the tables on that argument. If AR-15s are not good for home defense, why do police have them? The police are not in any situations different than an average citizen might find themselves in.

While we are at it, if no one needs a larger than 10 round magazine, why are LEOs exempt? This is simple class warfare and violates equality principles this country was founded on. The police are not liable for your well being, so they have no reason to be better armed than you.

Yes we risk LEOs losing these things to, but at least they will stand with gun owners in fighting it.

^^^^ +1 on this

and...

this old soldier trained with M1 Garand, M1 carbine and M14 rifles and used them in the VN war...the M16 was not in issue when i was "In" but i now have an M4 carbine and find it to be very adaptable and useful on ALL levels.

it's simple stupidity to say the AR/MSR is NOT a viable hunting arm...or SD/HD arm...or sporting arm...it's among the most popular and widely used american firearms in history.

we will NOT allow legislators to deem it otherwise...period.

BayAreaScott
01-05-2013, 9:50 AM
Agree.

Also anti-gun rights crowd has no business to talk about subjects that they know nothing about.

Then they wouldn't be the anti-gun rights crowd. Nothing like facts to confuse the current crop of loons.

GunOwner
01-05-2013, 9:51 AM
Another favorite from the article (showing absolute ignorance) is the assertion that the .223 round that most AR-15 rifles use has insufficient power for hunting anything other than small game animals

Someone needs to tell that to all the Vietnamese, Iraqis and others killed by our troops with them.

Plus, he better get the his genius information to the government so they stop issuing those underpowered weapons to our troops!

BayAreaScott
01-05-2013, 9:53 AM
Agree.

Also anti-gun rights crowd has no business to talk about subjects that they know nothing about.

But then they wouldn't be the anti gun rights crowd. Facts don't matter when you are seeking to control others. Only perception. Scream, yell, wave your arms and capture the news cycle. Repeat until the other side wears down and capitulates. Rules for Radicals.

We need to chose our battles, hone our message and be ready to fight (politically of course) when the time is of our chosing, not get sucked into phony debates.

fizux
01-05-2013, 1:50 PM
Another favorite from the article (showing absolute ignorance) is the assertion that the .223 round that most AR-15 rifles use has insufficient power for hunting anything other than small game animals

Someone needs to tell that to all the Vietnamese, Iraqis and others killed by our troops with them.

Plus, he better get the his genius information to the government so they stop issuing those underpowered weapons to our troops!

Actually, NATO 5.56x45mm, but close enough.