PDA

View Full Version : CGF, Cal-FFL, SAF, and CCRKBA questions


taperxz
01-02-2013, 1:01 PM
After picking through the inter-webs i noticed some interesting tid bits about the organizations i listed above.

If someone can clarify this it would be appreciated!

So, CGF is a group fighting for CA rights and is a group that was started in San Carlos CA.

It appears they are now in Madera CA. Now, with that being said, I would assume that Brandon (Executive Director of CGF also employed by SAF has done this for a reason. (i have no idea why) Or is it something Gene wanted? He too is on the board for SAF.


I am also aware that CAL-FFL is owned and run by Brandon. Interestingly though i just saw that CCRKBA is the operation collecting the funds for the other organizations. CCRKBA is owned by Alan Gottlieb!!

Why are all these organizations needed if the end result could be that Alan Gottlieb is the end recipient of all the FPC donations?

Remember, Alan is in charge of SAF!

Is CGF and all our grass roots org's merging with SAF?

I would really like to know after all these years of supporting our local orgs and what the synopsis is for the future. It really does appear that CGF, CAL-FFL, are joining up with SAF and CCRKBA. Even the model for FPC eludes to becoming a network for nationwide 2A activism. (I think thats great!)

However, what about the local laws and lawsuits that are pending, been filed, or not finished?

I still see very little reporting on getting local sheriffs to issue in many counties or keeping us up to date here (dedicated county threads) on what they are working on like they used to.

Do we now have to pay $15 per org on FPC in order to find out when i am already a contributor to the organizations?

I am confused and concerned that our local gun org is either going away (SAF merge) or just not posting relevant information here on this site any more.



Thanks for your answers.

taperxz
01-02-2013, 1:12 PM
I would also like to make it clear that i am not bashing or insinuating anything wrong here. (some may take it that way) I would simply like to see some clarity on the situation. Perhaps others may also.

Before i donate to organizations for anything, i like to know where my money goes and what its being used for. Thats really it.

stix213
01-02-2013, 1:20 PM
I suspect this is all just evidence of a tight alliance. The local CGF court cases are usually handled by Alan Gura (SAF lawyer) as it is, so it seems there has already been close coordination for years.

taperxz
01-02-2013, 1:27 PM
I suspect this is all just evidence of a tight alliance. The local CGF court cases are usually handled by Alan Gura (SAF lawyer) as it is, so it seems there has already been close coordination for years.

Why not just contribute to SAF then? They are the ones paying Alan Gura. If the interest of CGF is to be part of SAF and one is on the board and one is working for them, why all the different organizations if they are all run by the same people?

wildhawker
01-02-2013, 1:28 PM
After picking through the inter-webs i noticed some interesting tid bits about the organizations i listed above.

If someone can clarify this it would be appreciated!

So, CGF is a group fighting for CA rights and is a group that was started in San Carlos CA.

It was founded in Redwood Shores, CA.

It appears they are now in Madera CA but having their mail routed to Bellevue, Washington.

We are still based in San Carlos. Our mail routing has nothing to do with where we are "based".

Now, with that being said, I would assume that Brandon (Executive Director of CGF also employed by SAF has done this for a reason. (i have no idea why) Or is it something Gene wanted? He too is on the board for SAF.

First, yes, Gene is aware of this. We made the decision to make CGF even more efficient; what is your concern?

I am also aware that CAL-FFL is owned and run by Brandon. Interestingly though i just saw that CCRKBA is the operation collecting the funds for the other organizations. CCRKBA is owned by Alan Gottlieb!!

Both CCRKBA and Cal-FFL are nonprofit corporations. They are not "owned."

CCRKBA is lead on FPC because it's [a] national and [b] a 501(c)4.

Don't you want your gun rights organizations working together?

Again, what is your actual concern?

Why are all these organizations needed if the end result could be that Alan Gottlieb is the end recipient of all the FPC donations?

Alan Gottlieb is not receiving any donations; CCRKBA is. As I've said many times (if you had looked), CCRKBA will distribute all funds to the organization(s) you choose in the amount(s) you designate. It does not collect any service fees; it is helping our cause at its own cost.

Remember, Alan is in charge of SAF!

And?

Is CGF and all our grass roots org's merging with SAF?

CGF has always been a SAF affiliate. The organizations are and will remain separate.

ETA: By affiliate, I mean to say that the organizations have always been allied in mission and work closely together.

I would really like to know after all these years of supporting our local orgs and what the synopsis is for the future.

Much better than yesterday.

It really does appear that CGF, CAL-FFL, are joining up with SAF and CCRKBA. Even the model for FPC eludes to becoming a network for nationwide 2A activism. (I think thats great!)

We're glad you are supportive; I'm excited about it.

However, what about the local laws and lawsuits that are pending, been filed, or not finished?

They are unaffected.

I still see very little reporting on getting local sheriffs to issue in many counties or keeping us up to date here (dedicated county threads) on what they are working on like they used to.

That's because I'm really, really, busy.

Do we now have to pay $15 per org on FPC in order to find out when i am already a contributor to the organizations?

It's your choice to join or not. We always appreciate your contributions.

I am confused and concerned that our local gun org is either going away (SAF merge) or just not posting relevant information here on this site any more.

I told you over the phone weeks ago what to expect and why I've been quiet, and even explained some of what was happening on the back end. Now you're saying you're confused. I don't get it.

Why is correspondence being sent to Washington State?

Because it's where my office staff is.

Are the donations also going up there?

Yes; see above.

Thanks for your answers.

I appreciate the opportunity to respond.

-Brandon

wildhawker
01-02-2013, 1:36 PM
Why not just contribute to SAF then? They are the ones paying Alan Gura. If the interest of CGF is to be part of SAF and one is on the board and one is working for them, why all the different organizations if they are all run by the same people?

Because the vast majority of the California work is paid for by CGF. Alan Gura is mainly picked up by SAF; Don Kilmer and Jason Davis are mainly picked up by CGF.

You're conflating closely working together with being the same. We're not.

-Brandon

bwiese
01-02-2013, 1:42 PM
This is an opportunity for me to use the term 'lubricity' in a favorable alternate context (other than how a FMJ bullet slides thru a chrome-lined barrel better than a steel one).

The formal partitions exist but workflow moves effectively: people still pick up the phone and discuss/plan across these boundaries.

Kestryll
01-02-2013, 1:45 PM
CGF has always been a SAF affiliate. The organizations are and will remain separate.

I'm not going to get in to any of the other points but this is news to me.

I don't recall discussing being a SAF affiliate or even having any connection when we started CGF nor any mention of that when we wrote the by-laws.

Neither do I recall any vote of the Board deciding to become an affiliate of anyone. I do recall voting to financially support some cases SAF filed but that's it.

If CGF has always been an affiliate why didn't we name it 'CSAF' from the beginning?

Kestryll
01-02-2013, 1:46 PM
This is an opportunity for me to use the term 'lubricity'

A scary term to hear from a man in a unitard....

wildhawker
01-02-2013, 1:54 PM
It's an informal relationship, not codified. I'm sure you know how to use email for private corporate matters, Paul.

-Brandon

I'm not going to get in to any of the other points but this is news to me.

I don't recall discussing being a SAF affiliate or even having any connection when we started CGF nor any mention of that when we wrote the by-laws.

Neither do I recall any vote of the Board deciding to become an affiliate of anyone. I do recall voting to financially support some cases SAF filed but that's it.

If CGF has always been an affiliate why didn't we name it 'CSAF' from the beginning?

bwiese
01-02-2013, 1:59 PM
It's an informal relationship, not codified

Yup. Perhaps a fair way of putting it: "working on specific matters in affiliation with..." as fair phrasing.

taperxz
01-02-2013, 2:04 PM
It was founded in Redwood Shores, CA.

Same thing. I have no issue with this.



We are still based in San Carlos. Our mail routing has nothing to do with where we are "based".

Thats cool.

First, yes, Gene is aware of this. We made the decision to make CGF even more efficient; what is your concern?

My concern is simple, are funds and attention to local stuff still the same?

Both CCRKBA and Cal-FFL are nonprofit corporations. They are not "owned."

CCRKBA is lead on FPC because it's [a] national and a 501(c)4.

Don't you want your gun rights organizations working together?

Again, what is your actual concern?

[B]Yes i want gun orgs to work together! I also see a competition with other orgs that turn me off. Its just how "I" see it. Just a visual perception on my part

Alan Gottlieb is not receiving any donations; CCRKBA is. As I've said many times (if you had looked), CCRKBA will distribute all funds to the organization(s) you choose in the amount(s) you designate. It does not collect any service fees; it is helping our cause at its own cost.



And?

Just my perception of the orgs priorities.



CGF has always been a SAF affiliate. The organizations are and will remain separate.

Thanks for the clarification

Much better than yesterday.

Awesome!

We're glad you are supportive; I'm excited about it.

Absolutely am!

They are unaffected.

Thats good too! Its just been a little silent as of late. Not the new stuff though.



That's because I'm really, really, busy.

This is more of a concern for me. Are we biting off more than we can chew or follow though with? Some projects i worked on never saw the light of day.

It's your choice to join or not. We always appreciate your contributions.

Understanding all this helps to make that choice

I told you over the phone weeks ago what to expect and why I've been quiet, and even explained some of what was happening on the back end. Now you're saying you're confused. I don't get it.

Brandon, you told me you would tell me when it came out, i never heard more on it so i am asking the tough questions. Yes i understand you are busy. Thats why i am asking.:)

Because it's where my office staff is.

OK, again, just asking as it should be clarified. Do you not think others may also wonder what i am simply asking?

Yes; see above.

I think CA money should staty in California though. JMO

I appreciate the opportunity to respond.

-Brandon

I thank you for responding to my concerns


This really is what i was looking for. Thanks again Brandon.

taperxz
01-02-2013, 2:07 PM
It's an informal relationship, not codified. I'm sure you know how to use email for private corporate matters, Paul.

-Brandon

Informal but mixing finances? As a President of a corporation, i can tell you, thats not a good thing for an INFORMAL relationship.

taperxz
01-02-2013, 2:08 PM
This is an opportunity for me to use the term 'lubricity' in a favorable alternate context (other than how a FMJ bullet slides thru a chrome-lined barrel better than a steel one).

The formal partitions exist but workflow moves effectively: people still pick up the phone and discuss/plan across these boundaries.

What a tangled web we weave. Thats funny^^^

And i understand the true context of your words. :D

Kestryll
01-02-2013, 2:09 PM
It's an informal relationship, not codified. I'm sure you know how to use email for private corporate matters, Paul.

-Brandon

What is private about asking publicly for clarification about a public statement of affiliation?

CGF is a non-profit asking people to voluntarily donate money to them, there should be very little that isn't able to be discussed publicly.
Other than things that violate attorney/client or are material/privileged in reference to current litigation every person who has donated to CGF deserves to be informed about who CGF is working with, where their donations are going, what the BoD is doing and what the projected course for the future is.

It's not a case of bickering or being snide.
It's simple honesty.
If CGF solicits donations from people those people are paying the bills and have a right to be informed, to expect transparency and to know what they are paying for what to expect in the future.

Kestryll
01-02-2013, 2:14 PM
Yup. Perhaps a fair way of putting it: "working on specific matters in affiliation with..." as fair phrasing.
This would be a much better way to explain and express it.


Words have meaning and this has not merely an implication but a very simple and straight-forward claim of a relationship from point of origin that did not exist.
CGF has always been a SAF affiliate.

wildhawker
01-02-2013, 2:17 PM
Informal but mixing finances? As a President of a corporation, i can tell you, thats not a good thing for an INFORMAL relationship.

Every org has separate accounts. Why would you assume otherwise? You seem to be jumping to conclusions an awful lot in this thread.

-Brandon

Rock6.3
01-02-2013, 2:17 PM
If CGF solicits donations from people those people are paying the bills and have a right to be informed, to expect transparency and to know what they are paying for what to expect in the future.

Sunshine project clearly has not met the above stated expectation in the past 12 months.

taperxz
01-02-2013, 2:18 PM
It's an informal relationship, not codified.

-Brandon

Now there is another perception issue. If all the entities are separate, but the orgs are "informal", What about you working for SAF, CGF, and being President of CAL-FFL?

Plus CCRKBA distributing back funds to these orgs?

Thats not really "informal".

Thats why i am asking these straight forward honest questions.

In fairness, i asked and supported all the concerns about the quest to get CPRA to also be clear on what they were doing. So, this is not an attack or a one sided thing.

I want to donate my hard earned money for our rights! YOU KNOW i also want to help with time. If i am going to donate and help, i just want to get some clarification on whats what.

Personally, i think everyone who donates should know the intent of all the 2A orgs. Isn't this all the same type of concerns people have with CRPA and even the NRA these days?

taperxz
01-02-2013, 2:19 PM
Every org has separate accounts. Why would you assume otherwise? You seem to be jumping to conclusions an awful lot in this thread.

-Brandon

I am not jumping to conclusions! I am ONLY asking questions;)

SERIOUSLY!

the_quark
01-02-2013, 2:40 PM
For a very long time we have been working with SAF as a force multiplier. We bring cases together - if that's not clear, look at the filings we've been doing for years that have both of us as plaintiffs. You don't do that sort of thing without working closely together. There's absolutely nothing new about that relationship, it's existed for years and both we (CGF) and they (SAF) have been happy about it.

Unfortunately I think above, "Affiliate of" was a probably poor choice of words - it can connotate ownership or control (e.g., "Bungie Games was an affiliate of Microsoft"). I cannot make how categorically this is not the case in the SAF / CGF relationship. The Directors of CGF are the sole and only entities who "control" the organization. I believe what Brandon had in mind more was "Affiliated with" - we work together on projects. There are many things that CGF does alone - things that only affect Californians directly, such as most of our direct legal defenses of people that don't have long-term strategic national impacts.

But, when we're working on things that have national impact, we work closely with SAF (and less closely with NRA and CRPA) to coordinate and have a good strategic plan.

Bottom line - Gene being on the board of SAF and Brandon doing some work for them at the same time as working on CGF is no more "SAF taking over CGF" than the fact that we have a bunch of Directors at CGF who also sit (or sat) on the CRPA board was "CRPA taking over CGF".

-Brett

pennys dad
01-02-2013, 2:42 PM
What is private about asking publicly for clarification about a public statement of affiliation?

CGF is a non-profit asking people to voluntarily donate money to them, there should be very little that isn't able to be discussed publicly.
Other than things that violate attorney/client or are material/privileged in reference to current litigation every person who has donated to CGF deserves to be informed about who CGF is working with, where their donations are going, what the BoD is doing and what the projected course for the future is.

It's simple honesty.
If CGF solicits donations from people those people are paying the bills and have a right to be informed, to expect transparency and to know what they are paying for what to expect in the future.

Quote:
Now, with that being said, I would assume that Brandon (Executive Director of CGF also employed by SAF has done this for a reason. (i have no idea why) Or is it something Gene wanted? He too is on the board for SAF.

How much of the donations being sent in to CGF to fight 2a issue in California, "not Nationally" are being paid to Executive Director Brandon?

wildhawker
01-02-2013, 2:45 PM
Sunshine project clearly has not met the above stated expectation in the past 12 months.

I'd love to hear your thoughts on exactly which expectation was not met. You can email me via the link my sig or post here, whichever you prefer.

-Brandon

Rock6.3
01-02-2013, 3:05 PM
I'd love to hear your thoughts on exactly which expectation was not met. You can email me via the link my sig or post here, whichever you prefer.

-Brandon

In this discussion: http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=367442&page=2

From Dec 2010 thru Dec 2012 there are multiple pages of requests for information regarding the status of multiple counties which are mostly still waiting for a status report.

The master list of counties in the first post has not been updated since February 2012.

You and I have communicated via PM about this on several occasions and my suggestions for a posted status report were not well received and certainly were not acted upon.

Specific unmet expectation: Financial Donors should see activity on the funded project, and regular updates should clearly show the actual status for each county.

taperxz
01-02-2013, 3:09 PM
Bottom line - Gene being on the board of SAF and Brandon doing some work for them at the same time as working on CGF is no more "SAF taking over CGF" than the fact that we have a bunch of Directors at CGF who also sit (or sat) on the CRPA board was "CRPA taking over CGF".

-Brett

I thought the mission was to get calgunners on the CRPA board to basically change it and use it to push the CGF directors agenda?

Isn't that what "save CRPA about? Wanting to have an avenue to lobby Sacramento?

Python2
01-02-2013, 3:12 PM
Oh men, I hope this thread does not turn into bickering again, considering the state of our gun rights at the moment. Folks, please let us focus our attention to the other side of the fence.

pennys dad
01-02-2013, 3:16 PM
I thought the mission was to get calgunners on the CRPA board to basically change it and use it to push the CGF directors agenda?

Isn't that what "save CRPA about? Wanting to have an avenue to lobby Sacramento?

Correct, it should read

Bottom line - Gene being on the board of SAF and Brandon doing some work for them at the same time as working on CGF is no more "SAF taking over CGF" than the fact that we have a bunch of Directors at CGF who also sit (or sat) on the CRPA board was "CRPA taking over CGF CGF attempting to take over CRPA " sorry fixed it for you ;)

bwiese
01-02-2013, 3:21 PM
Various CGF members were NOT trying to take over CRPA, merely trying to get the organization somewhat relevant. We helped get rid of a problem lobbyist with issues that nobody was apparently aware of (or cared about?) and got an effective one in.

It's a shame that CRPA has extra funds now but does not want to be a hardball political entity doing the same thing that NRA is trying to do at DC level - i..e, leave political blood on the floor. CRPA should be doing PAC warfare just like other CA-effictive pressure group entities. And that effort should be from the NRA state affiliate.

taperxz
01-02-2013, 3:24 PM
Correct, it should read

Bottom line - Gene being on the board of SAF and Brandon doing some work for them at the same time as working on CGF is no more "SAF taking over CGF" than the fact that we have a bunch of Directors at CGF who also sit (or sat) on the CRPA board was "CRPA taking over CGF CGF attempting to take over CRPA " sorry fixed it for you ;)

I wasn't going to go quite that far. I too thought it was a good idea to straighten out CRPA. I still don't think they do much! I also donated for the "save CRPA" mission.

I'm not trying to pick a bone with anyone here. I just have a few questions after seeing the new site FPC after what has been said and done in the past and what has transpired since. Especially the trend going forward.

Its just confusing to me is all.

taperxz
01-02-2013, 3:28 PM
Various CGF members were NOT trying to take over CRPA, merely trying to get the organization somewhat relevant. We helped get rid of a problem lobbyist with issues that nobody was apparently aware of (or cared about?) and got an effective one in.

It's a shame that CRPA has extra funds now but does not want to be a hardball political entity doing the same thing that NRA is trying to do at DC level - i..e, leave political blood on the floor. CRPA should be doing PAC warfare just like other CA-effictive pressure group entities. And that effort should be from the NRA state affiliate.

I agree with this.

pennys dad
01-02-2013, 3:39 PM
Call a spade a spade Bill.

Gene was seeking majority vote to pass his bylaw changes.
Spraying perfume on it does not make it stink any better.

Various CGF members were NOT trying to take over CRPA, merely trying to get the organization somewhat relevant. We helped get rid of a problem lobbyist with issues that nobody was apparently aware of (or cared about?) and got an effective one in.

It's a shame that CRPA has extra funds now but does not want to be a hardball political entity doing the same thing that NRA is trying to do at DC level - i..e, leave political blood on the floor. CRPA should be doing PAC warfare just like other CA-effictive pressure group entities. And that effort should be from the NRA state affiliate.

tcrpe
01-02-2013, 3:41 PM
You guys need to stop the pissing contest. This stuff reads like the minutes of a Florida retirement community HOA board meeting.

pennys dad
01-02-2013, 3:42 PM
I wasn't going to go quite that far. I too thought it was a good idea to straighten out CRPA. I still don't think they do much! I also donated for the "save CRPA" mission.

I'm not trying to pick a bone with anyone here. I just have a few questions after seeing the new site FPC after what has been said and done in the past and what has transpired since. Especially the trend going forward.

Its just confusing to me is all.

I am sorry, but Brett opened the gate and I jumped in. If the CRPA is left out of the discussion I will stop commenting on CRPA points.

the_quark
01-02-2013, 3:43 PM
It wasn't about taking over, it was about improvement (and it did improve, I'll note).

I'm just saying that saying "Because Gene is on the board of SAF, SAF is taking over CGF" is just as grounded in reality as saying, two years ago, "Because Gene is on the board of CRPA, CRPA is taking over CGF". We're individuals, we do things outside of a single organization, and it's a mistake to think that because people work in more than one organization at a time that those organizations are de facto (much less de jure) one. Any Director of an organization has a fiduciary duty to that organization first regardless of any other affiliations. All of our Directors who moonlight I am sure are quite well aware of that.

pennys dad
01-02-2013, 3:45 PM
I will assume you where typing when I was and forgo a comment.

It wasn't about taking over, it was about improvement (and it did improve, I'll note).

I'm just saying that saying "Because Gene is on the board of SAF, SAF is taking over CGF" is just as grounded in reality as saying, two years ago, "Because Gene is on the board of CRPA, CRPA is taking over CGF". We're individuals, we do things outside of a single organization, and it's a mistake to think that because people work in more than one organization at a time that those organizations are de facto (much less de jure) one. Any Director of an organization has a fiduciary duty to that organization first regardless of any other affiliations. All of our Directors who moonlight I am sure are quite well aware of that.

taperxz
01-02-2013, 3:48 PM
You guys need to stop the pissing contest. This stuff reads like the minutes of a Florida retirement community HOA board meeting.

This is not a pissing contest at all! They are fair questions, i have been encouraged by board members of CGF (including Brandon) to ask questions about what is going on.

They have actually encouraged me to do so saying " its good for the health of the mission"

Why are some people either being "up in arms or defensive" about my simple questions? AGAIN SERIOUSLY! NO ACCUSATIONS, NO INSINUATIONS

stix213
01-02-2013, 4:21 PM
This is not a pissing contest at all! They are fair questions, i have been encouraged by board members of CGF (including Brandon) to ask questions about what is going on.

They have actually encouraged me to do so saying " its good for the health of the mission"

Why are some people either being "up in arms or defensive" about my simple questions? AGAIN SERIOUSLY! NO ACCUSATIONS, NO INSINUATIONS

You're asking clear questions, one or two others are engaged in their own pissing contest.

Hogstir
01-02-2013, 5:40 PM
I know I'm relatively new here. That being said I see the 4 groups mentioned as each specializing in a particular field. Calguns= Ca. specific legislation and lawsuits. Calffl=legislation and policy affecting Ca FFL's. SAF= legislation and lawsuits having national import. CCRKBA=Ca.specific SAF. Personally I am glad that they all work together and there is only one website I have to go to in order to donate.

El Toro
01-02-2013, 5:59 PM
Whats this thread doing in 2nd Amendment anyhow?

Isnt there a more appropriate forum?

taperxz
01-02-2013, 6:10 PM
Whats this thread doing in 2nd Amendment anyhow?

Isnt there a more appropriate forum?

If people can come into this forum an advocate donating to different orgs, then whats the difference if we have questions about the same orgs that fight the government for our rights? Its all 2A related.

CaliforniaLiberal
01-02-2013, 7:09 PM
"CGF has always been a SAF affiliate."

I think that many of us found this statement to be rather startling. I understand "Affiliate" in this context to mean a formal, legal, possibly subordinate relationship. "A person or organization officially attached to a larger body." Of course this has never been the nature of CalGuns relationship with SAF.

Reading further I understand that it was actually meant in the sense of "Allied with."

May I suggest that the post be edited with explanation so as not to lead to further misunderstanding by future readers?


Also, there has been little clear, explicit explanation of the nature and purpose of the FPC and how it will function. Is it just a conduit for donations to the four "affiliate" organizations. To quote an earlier post:

"....what exactly do you mean by a coalition? Is this just a new way to gather and funnel donations? How will FPC influence the decision making processes of the four organizations if at all? Why should we be going through the FPC if we have already been a member and made donations to the individual organizations?

Could you please explain with more detail what the FPC is and how it will work? What is it's purpose?"

Please shed more light on the FPC and why we need it.

Gray Peterson
01-02-2013, 7:10 PM
I know I'm relatively new here. That being said I see the 4 groups mentioned as each specializing in a particular field. Calguns= Ca. specific legislation and lawsuits. Calffl=legislation and policy affecting Ca FFL's. SAF= legislation and lawsuits having national import. CCRKBA=Ca.specific SAF. Personally I am glad that they all work together and there is only one website I have to go to in order to donate.

Cal-FFL: California based group representing FFL's. Based in CA (not sure of it's non-profit status, I think it's a c4 but I'm not sure).
CGF: Calguns Foundation, based in CA, 501(c)(3) education & litigation
SAF: Second Amendment Foundation, based in WA, 501(c)(3) education & litigation.
CCRKBA: Citizens Committee for the Right to Keep and Bear Arms, based in WA, 501(c)(4) lobbying organization. Nationwide jurisdiction.

wildhawker
01-02-2013, 8:06 PM
I appreciate your post and would like to respond to the questions therein:

"CGF has always been a SAF affiliate."

I think that many of us found this statement to be rather startling. I understand "Affiliate" in this context to mean a formal, legal, possibly subordinate relationship. "A person or organization officially attached to a larger body." Of course this has never been the nature of CalGuns relationship with SAF.

Reading further I understand that it was actually meant in the sense of "Allied with."

May I suggest that the post be edited with explanation so as not to lead to further misunderstanding by future readers?

Fair suggestion; I will do just that.

Also, there has been little clear, explicit explanation of the nature and purpose of the FPC and how it will function. Is it just a conduit for donations to the four "affiliate" organizations.

Part of it is because it's so new; Newtown compressed the launch timeframe and we happened to be infrastructure-forward on the delivery curve. Another part of it is that, because of things like what happened with the STOP SB 249 campaign last year and McDonald v. Chicago, we have to be conscientious about how we announce or telegraph strategy and deliverables.

To quote an earlier post:

"....what exactly do you mean by a coalition? Is this just a new way to gather and funnel donations? How will FPC influence the decision making processes of the four organizations if at all? Why should we be going through the FPC if we have already been a member and made donations to the individual organizations?

Could you please explain with more detail what the FPC is and how it will work? What is it's purpose?"

Please shed more light on the FPC and why we need it.

The gun banners have declared war on the Second Amendment and our right to keep and bear arms on a scale unseen in modern history. It's time for unity and it's critical that like-minded gun rights organizations work together to defend our rights.

Consider: why does anyone need high capacity magazines?

FPC is NATO for gun rights.

I encourage everyone to read the FAQs (http://firearmspolicy.org/faq) (which we'll add to as new questions come up) and our About (http://www.firearmspolicy.org/about/) pages.

-Brandon

morrcarr67
01-02-2013, 8:32 PM
I have a question.

I have been to CalFFL's website and I don't see an "Action" or "To Do" list.

As an 03 C&R FFL holder I want to know if I join and donate money to your organization what plans do you have to fight and change the things we (C&R holders) have to deal with here in CA?

wildhawker
01-02-2013, 8:57 PM
I have a question.

I have been to CalFFL's website and I don't see an "Action" or "To Do" list.

As an 03 C&R FFL holder I want to know if I join and donate money to your organization what plans do you have to fight and change the things we (C&R holders) have to deal with here in CA?

Like all organizations, Cal-FFL addresses issues based on priority; we most certainly have FFL03s in mind - for example, the C&R long gun exemption - but there is zero chance to get a pro-gun fix through the CA Legislature this year unless it's part of another (likely gun control) bill.

When you're up against gun bans that will affect hundreds of thousands of innocent people and millions of guns, we have to keep our eye on the ball just like we did last year with SB 249.

-Brandon

morrcarr67
01-02-2013, 9:02 PM
So, if you're gonna prioritize things where do the concerns of the C&R fall within your organization?

wildhawker
01-02-2013, 9:12 PM
So, if you're gonna prioritize things where do the concerns of the C&R fall within your organization?

Underneath firearm, magazine, and ammunition bans and massive registration/confiscation schemes.

-Brandon

morrcarr67
01-02-2013, 9:43 PM
Well to be quite honest, that doesn't make ME as an 03 C&R FFL holder want to become a member and donate money to an organization that; based on its name, is putting the concerns of said FFL license below some of the things you've listed.

Not that they aren't good concerns.

And, I have donated to help fight the things you've listed. Though I donated to an organization that is about ALL things firearms; the CGF.

I truly feel the an organization named CalFFL should only fight for things that affect FFL's in CA.

And, yes most of what you listed will and does affect 01/07 FFL's it has little affect on an 03 C&R FFL.

This of course is my opinion and I may be wrong. But, then again I maybe right.

When CalFFL is ready to fight for the concerns of the 03 C&R FFL let me know and I'll be happy to join.

Until then I think my money will be better used to fight for the concerns of all.

Gray Peterson
01-02-2013, 9:55 PM
Well to be quite honest, that doesn't make ME as an 03 C&R FFL holder want to become a member and donate money to an organization that; based on its name, is putting the concerns of said FFL license below some of the things you've listed.

Not that they aren't good concerns.

And, I have donated to help fight the things you've listed. Though I donated to an organization that is about ALL things firearms; the CGF.

I truly feel the an organization named CalFFL should only fight for things that affect FFL's in CA.

And, yes most of what you listed will and does affect 01/07 FFL's it has little affect on an 03 C&R FFL.

This of course is my opinion and I may be wrong. But, then again I maybe right.

When CalFFL is ready to fight for the concerns of the 03 C&R FFL let me know and I'll be happy to join.

Until then I think my money will be better used to fight for the concerns of all.

The Feinstein gun ban, along with the Yee gun bans, would cause major problems with the 01/07 FFL inventories.

DVSmith
01-02-2013, 10:43 PM
Brandon, et al.,

I have been fielding questions about FPC and simply been referring them here as I have not wanted to misrepresent the organization in any way. I have asked some specific questions relating to the tax exempt status of FPC with respect to the underlying groups. My tax analysts do no concur with what has been presented here, but I have left that as an exercise for those wising to donate. Honestly I suspect it isn't really relevant as someone donating a large sum is likely to have adequate tax advisers.

The only thing that keeps coming back around is Brandon's involvement in all of these organizations. Honestly, the elephant in the room seems to be why he is so intertwined in each of these groups and why groups that he isn't a member of are excluded.

Is FPC intended to provide some level of funding based on a commitment that Brandon has made to these groups? Why exactly do these groups need another layer of organizational structure to support them?

After all, SAF is well known. CGF is pretty well know in California. What exactly is FPC's goal as a "conduit" for donations?

Just my two cents, but I think a clear statement of why this organization is needed from SAF's Alan Gottlieb and why he endorses it may go a long way to help others understand why it even exists.

Gray Peterson
01-02-2013, 10:52 PM
Brandon, et al.,

I have been fielding questions about FPC and simply been referring them here as I have not wanted to misrepresent the organization in any way. I have asked some specific questions relating to the tax exempt status of FPC with respect to the underlying groups. My tax analysts do no concur with what has been presented here, but I have left that as an exercise for those wising to donate. Honestly I suspect it isn't really relevant as someone donating a large sum is likely to have adequate tax advisers.

The only thing that keeps coming back around is Brandon's involvement in all of these organizations. Honestly, the elephant in the room seems to be why he is so intertwined in each of these groups and why groups that he isn't a member of are excluded.

Is FPC intended to provide some level of funding based on a commitment that Brandon has made to these groups? Why exactly do these groups need another layer of organizational structure to support them?

After all, SAF is well known. CGF is pretty well know in California. What exactly is FPC's goal as a "conduit" for donations?

Just my two cents, but I think a clear statement of why this organization is needed from SAF's Alan Gottlieb and why he endorses it may go a long way to help others understand why it even exists.

Why would Alan Gottlieb (the leader of the organization who funded McDonald & Ezell & Moore & Woollard & Bateman) need to explain things to you? I mean, it's pretty self explanatory:

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=189556&stc=1&d=1357197200

The Stop SB249 Campaign is the predecessor to the FPC. FPC is meant to be a NATO-style combined organization.

Gottlieb doesn't engage in internet forums, but you're welcome to call him up in Bellevue, WA. The number for SAF is 425-454-7012, and ask to be transferred to Mr. Gottlieb's office.

ghostrider95814
01-02-2013, 10:56 PM
From reading the FAQ's and the "about us" and reading Wildhawker's answers, this is what I take from it:

just like www.stopsb249.org, this is a project.

everyone loved stopSB249.org and it was sponsored by the exact same groups. see here: http://stopsb249.org/who-is-stop-sb-249/

So... why have a new website for each bill?

Am I getting warmer here? its an umbrella , its a project, you donate to each group as you see fit, but you have a one stop shop just like last years successful coalition.

Gray Peterson
01-02-2013, 11:04 PM
From reading the FAQ's and the "about us" and reading Wildhawker's answers, this is what I take from it:

just like www.stopsb249.org, this is a project.

everyone loved stopSB249.org and it was sponsored by the exact same groups. see here: http://stopsb249.org/who-is-stop-sb-249/

So... why have a new website for each bill?

Am I getting warmer here? its an umbrella , its a project, you donate to each group as you see fit, but you have a one stop shop just like last years successful coalition.

ghostrider,

You would be exactly correct. The FPC organization's predecessor is the Stop SB249 campaign, which took a leading role in stopping it.

taperxz
01-02-2013, 11:07 PM
Why would Alan Gottlieb (the leader of the organization who funded McDonald & Ezell & Moore & Woollard & Bateman) need to explain things to you?

Because SAF is a part of the FPC website??? Do you have fetish with some of these people that makes them a god to you? These are lawsuits. Thats all they are! Not one of those LAWSUITS has done squat for 2A rights in this state yet.

taperxz
01-02-2013, 11:10 PM
ghostrider,

You would be exactly correct. The FPC organization's predecessor is the Stop SB249 campaign, which took a leading role in stopping it.

Very true. Lets not forget NRA's Worley either though. It took the whole tribe. I am sure Ed sat down with that POS Ammiano to explain what was happening at some point in time prior to Yee pulling the bill.

ghostrider95814
01-02-2013, 11:11 PM
Because SAF is a part of the FPC website??? Do you have fetish with some of these people that makes them a god to you? These are lawsuits. Thats all they are! Not one of those LAWSUITS has done squat for 2A rights in this state yet.

I came to calguns for trolls but stayed for the litigation.

wildhawker
01-02-2013, 11:16 PM
Very true. Lets not forget NRA's Worley either though. It took the whole tribe. I am sure Ed sat down with POS Ammiano to explain what was happening at some point in time prior to Lee pulling the bill.

Yee didn't "pull" his bill. The Appropriations committee killed it with this analysis (http://stopsb249.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/sb249_approps_analysis.pdf) based in part on this letter (http://www.scribd.com/doc/102470096/Cal-FFL-SB-249-Opposition-Asm-Appropriations-STOP-SB-249) and offline, 1:1 work I did with the committees/analysts.

-Brandon

ghostrider95814
01-02-2013, 11:19 PM
Brandon, et al.,


The only thing that keeps coming back around is Brandon's involvement in all of these organizations. Honestly, the elephant in the room seems to be why he is so intertwined in each of these groups and why groups that he isn't a member of are excluded.

is this an endorsement?

and are you sympathetic that brandon never sleeps?

are there some other groups whose products you prefer? are they intertwined?

small world , this civil rights thing.

Is FPC intended to provide some level of funding based on a commitment that Brandon has made to these groups? Why exactly do these groups need another layer of organizational structure to support them?

one stop shop based on the huge success of last years coordinated project?

After all, SAF is well known. CGF is pretty well know in California. What exactly is FPC's goal as a "conduit" for donations?

one stop shop based on the huge success of last years coordinated project? have you seen this other conduit for donations ? its called amazon.com www.shop42a.com


Just my two cents, but I think a clear statement of why this organization is needed from SAF's Alan Gottlieb and why he endorses it may go a long way to help others understand why it even exists.

Ill have him call you.

taperxz
01-02-2013, 11:23 PM
Yee didn't "pull" his bill. The Appropriations committee killed it with this analysis (http://stopsb249.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/sb249_approps_analysis.pdf) based in part on this letter (http://www.scribd.com/doc/102470096/Cal-FFL-SB-249-Opposition-Asm-Appropriations-STOP-SB-249) and offline, 1:1 work I did with the committees/analysts.

-Brandon

Yes Brandon i know. It was not actually killed in appropriations completely though. It was still available to be voted on until the last minute of the last day. I too was sending out flyers in case you forgot.

My point being is that some were able to contact the politicians and sit in their office to discuss the bad in the bill. Some others you and me and others were out gaining support to defeat the bill. All a concerted effort.

You being the most visable.

Gray Peterson
01-02-2013, 11:24 PM
Because SAF is a part of the FPC website??? Do you have fetish with some of these people that makes them a god to you? These are lawsuits. Thats all they are! Not one of those LAWSUITS has done squat for 2A rights in this state yet.

The 9th Circuit's complete mishandling of Nordyke, and it's obsession with the belief that gun shows on county fairgrounds had anything to do with carry in particular, for over 3 years cost us valuable time.

wildhawker
01-02-2013, 11:25 PM
Yes Brandon i know. It was not actually killed in appropriations completely though. It was still available to be voted on until the last minute of the last day. I too was sending out flyers in case you forgot.

My point being is that some were able to contact the politicians and sit in their office to discuss the bad in the bill. Some others you and me and others were out gaining support to defeat the bill. All a concerted effort.

You being the most visable.

I'm pretty sure I remember how SB 249 went down and I'm pretty sure I know who did what on it.

Most of what I did was not "visable."

-Brandon

ghostrider95814
01-02-2013, 11:27 PM
Because SAF is a part of the FPC website??? Do you have fetish with some of these people that makes them a god to you? These are lawsuits. Thats all they are! Not one of those LAWSUITS has done squat for 2A rights in this state yet.

Does this mean I have to give back my License to Carry and cant go to gun shows in Alameda county?

I cant wait for the rulings on statewide License to carry, carrying in parks, handgun roster....

taperxz
01-02-2013, 11:27 PM
I'm pretty sure I remember how SB 249 went down and I'm pretty sure I know who did what on it.

Most of what I did was not "visable."

-Brandon

Well, it was to me and i give you tons of credit for that.

taperxz
01-02-2013, 11:28 PM
Does this mean I have to give back my License to Carry and cant go to gun shows in Alameda county?

I cant wait for the rulings on statewide License to carry, carrying in parks, handgun roster....

OK Gene. You'll notice i said "YET"

Gray Peterson
01-02-2013, 11:32 PM
OK Gene. You'll notice i said "YET"

Huh?

ghostrider95814
01-02-2013, 11:35 PM
OK Gene. You'll notice i said "YET"

MR. Spirit of Vengeance please. old school, not Nicholas Cage version. Gene posts as himself im sure.

You are a good sport.

this is a big year, the biggest, and what we have done despite our personal disagreements and squabbles was just training. we have to go pro now.

see you in the arena.

taperxz
01-02-2013, 11:43 PM
What i can't understand is that when an ally of yours disagrees with you guys or has questions about decisions made many at CGF are like wolves that are attacking in a pack.

These questions and challenging posts only make you stronger IF you can come up with the right solutions. I have never seen a group be so defensive to the point of driving others away. Almost me now that i see i was mislead by the leaders of CGF to feel free to voice my opinion.

What you should have done is answer the OP with authority and confidence.

You guys have started MANY fire missions without following through with them and some of us see that. Do you really think people don't notice this?

Brandon admitted the new site was done hastily and i accept the reasons behind it. Does it really hurt that bad that i query the site to get a few simple questions understood?

taperxz
01-02-2013, 11:46 PM
Does this mean I have to give back my License to Carry and cant go to gun shows in Alameda county?

I cant wait for the rulings on statewide License to carry, carrying in parks, handgun roster....

OK Gene. You'll notice i said "YET"

MR. Spirit of Vengeance please. old school, not Nicholas Cage version. Gene posts as himself im sure.

You are a good sport.

this is a big year, the biggest, and what we have done despite our personal disagreements and squabbles was just training. we have to go pro now.

see you in the arena.

Hey, a join date of 2006, started out here with 4 posts and sounds like something Gene might say. It was a shot in the dark:D

taperxz
01-03-2013, 12:02 AM
95814 Sac. I've been had lol

unusedusername
01-03-2013, 12:14 AM
Because SAF is a part of the FPC website??? Do you have fetish with some of these people that makes them a god to you? These are lawsuits. Thats all they are! Not one of those LAWSUITS has done squat for 2A rights in this state yet.

I remember Prop H. I also remember the (admittedly criminal, not civil) case over the U-15 stock.

We got stalled by the 9th but things seem to be rolling again, to the extent that court cases ever "roll".

The right people are working together and getting stuff done. Even in this state. Even with too many crazy people getting guns and doing stupid and tragic things with them.

ghostrider95814
01-03-2013, 12:25 AM
Hey, a join date of 2006, started out here with 4 posts and sounds like something Gene might say. It was a shot in the dark:D

it was a good shot

taperxz
01-03-2013, 12:29 AM
it was a good shot

Then i looked at your first post in 2006, the one you deleted. Posters were talking about something in regards to the NRA.... CA.... ect.:)

warbird
01-03-2013, 12:34 AM
Average people who need to be convinced tend to withhold money and support of an active public nature when gun organizations act like a pack of rabid dogs when questioned in an attempt to either gain knowledge or clear up some confusion. I have even seen this happen on this site and it makes people gun shy to get involved. who are you going to listen to? A calm rationale person trying to give sensible answers or someone screaming if you don't donate money and accept everything without question they are going to go ballistic on you? How does the second one make you any better than rulers of a dictatorship or my favorite whipping boys (Nazi germany). Just shut up and go along with the program and don't ask questions as you hand your money over. I'll give my money and put my name on the roles of the organizations that prove they will honestly answer questions no matter where those answers lead. As long as you are screaming join or get the hell out, don't question us but do as you are told, no disagreements with management, and by the way you feel guilt ridden, you are going to have more people heading for the exits than sticking around to listen to you. Maybe it is time for a public relations overall on some of these organizations.

ghostrider95814
01-03-2013, 12:53 AM
Average people who need to be convinced tend to withhold money and support of an active public nature when gun organizations act like a pack of rabid dogs when questioned in an attempt to either gain knowledge or clear up some confusion. I have even seen this happen on this site and it makes people gun shy to get involved. who are you going to listen to? A calm rationale person trying to give sensible answers or someone screaming if you don't donate money and accept everything without question they are going to go ballistic on you? How does the second one make you any better than rulers of a dictatorship or my favorite whipping boys (Nazi germany). Just shut up and go along with the program and don't ask questions as you hand your money over. I'll give my money and put my name on the roles of the organizations that prove they will honestly answer questions no matter where those answers lead. As long as you are screaming join or get the hell out, don't question us but do as you are told, no disagreements with management, and by the way you feel guilt ridden, you are going to have more people heading for the exits than sticking around to listen to you. Maybe it is time for a public relations overall on some of these organizations.

I totally agree. whats worse is when the question is answered repeatedly, no one likes it and then I spill my creme soda on my keyboard and get all grumpy.

CaliforniaLiberal
01-03-2013, 12:58 AM
I appreciate your post and would like to respond to the questions therein:


Fair suggestion; I will do just that.


Part of it is because it's so new; Newtown compressed the launch timeframe and we happened to be infrastructure-forward on the delivery curve. Another part of it is that, because of things like what happened with the STOP SB 249 campaign last year and McDonald v. Chicago, we have to be conscientious about how we announce or telegraph strategy and deliverables.


The gun banners have declared war on the Second Amendment and our right to keep and bear arms on a scale unseen in modern history. It's time for unity and it's critical that like-minded gun rights organizations work together to defend our rights.

Consider: why does anyone need high capacity magazines?

FPC is NATO for gun rights.

I encourage everyone to read the FAQs (http://firearmspolicy.org/faq) (which we'll add to as new questions come up) and our About (http://www.firearmspolicy.org/about/) pages.

-Brandon


My questions are well answered, Thank You. I had not yet spotted the FPC FAQ.

morrcarr67
01-03-2013, 6:54 AM
The Feinstein gun ban, along with the Yee gun bans, would cause major problems with the 01/07 FFL inventories.


I understand that.

My point is that CalFFL is calling for ALL CA FFL holders to join them. But Brandon has just publicly stated that the concerns of the C&R FFL holder are at the bottom of the pile when it comes to CalFFL.

So, why as a C&R holder should I support an organization that isn't going to fight for my concerns?

Just a side note.

Don't you find it interesting that Brandon responded to my first two post but not the one you did? And, he has been back to this thread.

I do.

wildhawker
01-03-2013, 7:08 AM
Sorry, I thought your question was asked and answered.

You're mischaracterizing my response. What I said, and I'll say again, is that right now the sole focus of every gun rights organization is (or should be) to stop as much of the new gun control as possible.

We believed we had an opportunity to revisit some C&R issues this year and possibly get some fixes through; that window likely shut on December 14, 2012, for some undetermined period of time.

I don't understand what is so "interesting" - how often does Wayne LaPierre or Larry Keane discuss strategy with you on Calguns?

-Brandon

I understand that.

My point is that CalFFL is calling for ALL CA FFL holders to join them. But Brandon has just publicly stated that the concerns of the C&R FFL holder are at the bottom of the pile when it comes to CalFFL.

So, why as a C&R holder should I support an organization that isn't going to fight for my concerns?

Just a side note.

Don't you find it interesting that Brandon responded to my first two post but not the one you did? And, he has been back to this thread.

I do.

morrcarr67
01-03-2013, 8:40 AM
Sorry, I thought your question was asked and answered.

You're mischaracterizing my response. What I said, and I'll say again, is that right now the sole focus of every gun rights organization is (or should be) to stop as much of the new gun control as possible.

We believed we had an opportunity to revisit some C&R issues this year and possibly get some fixes through; that window likely shut on December 14, 2012, for some undetermined period of time.

I don't understand what is so "interesting" - how often does Wayne LaPierre or Larry Keane discuss strategy with you on Calguns?

-Brandon

Well first off I'm not talk to Wayne or Larry; I'm talking to you.

Second off I'm not asking you to talk strategy with me. I'm trying to get a feel for what CalFFL is working on. And, how their plans affect me as a California 03 C&R FFL holder.

What I found interesting was that based on your comments I was not excited about joining CalFFL and that solely based on the organizations name I felt that it should be doing more for only CA based FFLs and you had no response to that.

I understood you about all gun rights group should be fighting new gun laws.

What I'm saying is isn't that what we have CalGuns for?

Why do we need CalFFL fighting the same fights as CalGuns or the SAF?

We (FFL holders) need someone to tackle the issues we have. I thought that was what CalFFL was going to be doing.

Based on you statements I now know otherwise.

So, again as a CA C&R FFL holder and based on your comments to my question as to where the concerns of the C&R holder are why should I join CalFFL?

Wouldn't my donations be better served by CGF?

wildhawker
01-03-2013, 8:48 AM
Wouldn't my donations be better served by CGF?

CGF is not a lobbying organization; it can limitedly lobby, but that's not a primary component of what we do.

As gun owners, I think everyone is served by donating to CGF and SAF. As a FFL03 (or a commercial FFL), there is simply no other California-based organization that serves licensees, ranges, and trainers. I wish that the political climate were different; we get to play the best poker we can with the cards dealt. Politics is not strategic civil litigation.

Ultimately it's a personal decision you'll have to make. If you want to talk about Cal-FFL in more detail, feel free to email me. I really need to focus on the task at hand, and right now that's not at CGN.

-Brandon

morrcarr67
01-03-2013, 9:20 AM
CGF is not a lobbying organization; it can limitedly lobby, but that's not a primary component of what we do.

As gun owners, I think everyone is served by donating to CGF and SAF. As a FFL03 (or a commercial FFL), there is simply no other California-based organization that serves licensees, ranges, and trainers. I wish that the political climate were different; we get to play the best poker we can with the cards dealt. Politics is not strategic civil litigation.

Ultimately it's a personal decision you'll have to make. If you want to talk about Cal-FFL in more detail, feel free to email me. I really need to focus on the task at hand, and right now that's not at CGN.

-Brandon

I am on the road working so it will be a day or two but I will be sending you an email to hear more on CalFFL.

Jesse

Californio
01-03-2013, 9:33 AM
I Don't have a Question!!!

Its a little late in the Football Game to change Quarterbacks so - I just put my MONEY on the table and hope for the best.

These questions are wasting the time of those that need to do the work - please mentally masturbate in the privacy of your own home so the work that needs to done, gets done.

War has been Declared, we need to win, not flap our gums.

My Father was fond of saying, "Some people talk just to hear themselves talk"

Thank You

DVSmith
01-03-2013, 9:49 AM
Why would Alan Gottlieb (the leader of the organization who funded McDonald & Ezell & Moore & Woollard & Bateman) need to explain things to you? I mean, it's pretty self explanatory:


So Mr. Gottlieb wouldn't take the time to provide members and donors with his view on why being under this new group's umbrella is important to those same members and donors? Your implication is that the majority of us SAF members, who help fund his activities and don't have a court case with our names on it, aren't important enough to communicate the relevance of an affiliation with FPC but we are important enough to encourage us to do business with companies, like GLOCK, that sponsor SAF and get an SAF credit card. Is that your point of view or did I miss a nuance there?

Gray Peterson
01-03-2013, 10:16 AM
So Mr. Gottlieb wouldn't take the time to provide members and donors with his view on why being under this new group's umbrella is important to those same members and donors? Your implication is that the majority of us SAF members, who help fund his activities and don't have a court case with our names on it, aren't important enough to communicate the relevance of an affiliation with FPC but we are important enough to encourage us to do business with companies, like GLOCK, that sponsor SAF and get an SAF credit card. Is that your point of view or did I miss a nuance there?

You missed a nuance. Call his office. I posted the number. You want an explanation, get it from him direct.

taperxz
01-03-2013, 10:16 AM
I Don't have a Question!!!

Its a little late in the Football Game to change Quarterbacks so - I just put my MONEY on the table and hope for the best.

These questions are wasting the time of those that need to do the work - please mentally masturbate in the privacy of your own home so the work that needs to done, gets done.

War has been Declared, we need to win, not flap our gums.

My Father was fond of saying, "Some people talk just to hear themselves talk"

Thank You

Typical sheeple talk. ^^^ I am not a follower, some of us like to make informed decisions. I like to make sure that when i donate, my money gets maximum affect.

It has not in the past. I hope the new site does well! It also needs to be followed through with though. Many projects and fire missions have been pushed to the way side.

Anyone that wants to donate blindly and on faith, feel free. None of this is to imply i don't support the efforts in regards to the OP, Brandon or CGF. I will always support their efforts! I will not blindly support on simple faith however.

taperxz
01-03-2013, 10:19 AM
You missed a nuance. Call his office. I posted the number. You want an explanation, get it from him direct.

Why should he call a person like Alan IF he won't get a response from him as you implied?

Why would Alan Gottlieb (the leader of the organization who funded McDonald & Ezell & Moore & Woollard & Bateman) need to explain things to you?

Gray Peterson
01-03-2013, 10:33 AM
Why should he call a person like Alan IF he won't get a response from him as you implied?

Because I don't understand why him giving permission for the organization to be formed with SAF being a founding coalition member isn't enough of an endorsement of it.

I find it odd that Brandon's word is not being trusted here. Why?

taperxz
01-03-2013, 11:07 AM
Because I don't understand why him giving permission for the organization to be formed with SAF being a founding coalition member isn't enough of an endorsement of it.

I find it odd that Brandon's word is not being trusted here. Why?

First of all, I never have said i don't "trust" Brandon.

I have however seen many fire missions and ideas collect money and then be drowned in the hallows of CGN.

Many of the volunteers spout off how hard they work and how they have lives and jobs. YET, many volunteers also complain how they are never called to action.

So, You have missions not getting followed through with (even an explanation of ,"perhaps it was a bad idea?") would be considered following through in my book.

Working volunteers complaining how hard and tirelessly they work:
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=367442&page=4

And volunteers complaining they never get called for a fire mission or project. See link above.

I sure hope this is being taken into context that what i am saying should be considered helpful and constructive. Its what many people do see.:)

wildhawker
01-03-2013, 11:32 AM
John, donations are being used effectively. We are working on tons of stuff in CA right now. If you're asking for more blood from the turnip then your expectations should probably evolve. Volunteerism is un perfect. We don't have staff; if you want to pay a salary or two for full time reliable help and coordinators who don't have jobs and babies then please donate at http://calgunsfoundation.org/donate.

taperxz
01-03-2013, 11:42 AM
John, donations are being used effectively. We are working on tons of stuff in CA right now. If you're asking for more blood from the turnip then your expectations should probably evolve. Volunteerism is un perfect. We don't have staff; if you want to pay a salary or two for full time reliable help and coordinators who don't have jobs and babies then please donate at http://calgunsfoundation.org/donate.

I never said i was asking for more blood from the turnip. I said that it was my opinion that some of the tasks taken up even from two years ago got either tossed or buried without follow through.

I did say that there seems to be volunteers that are not being utilized. Just like the thread i pointed out in the previous post. Delegating authority is an important part of success whether the staff is paid or volunteer. :)

jdberger
01-03-2013, 11:56 AM
I never said i was asking for more blood from the turnip. I said that it was my opinion that some of the tasks taken up even from two years ago got either tossed or buried without follow through.

I did say that there seems to be volunteers that are not being utilized. Just like the thread i pointed out in the previous post. Delegating authority is an important part of success whether the staff is paid or volunteer. :)

And sometimes initiatives just die off, are pigeonholed, atrophy, etc.

Sometimes it's difficult to keep volunteer interest in them going. Sometimes it's difficult to get staffing. I've started a few initiatives that just withered. Others have been more successful

As a Board, we vote to allocate funds to the initiatives we think will bear the most fruit. We also understand that we're playing the long game. Things like Sunshine often will evolve to a point, and then may stall while we wait for an important precursor event to take place. Sometimes the precursor will happen in a week. Sometimes it will take years.

You earlier marvelled at how folks come out to defend Brandon and CGF when questions are raised about them. It's because we know how hard they work. It's because we're waking up to see that folks like Brandon were still sending emails out at 5AM while we were fast asleep. While he is amply able to defend himself from these questions (which read much more like accusations), we'd rather he focus his efforts on the good work that CGF and other "affiliated" organizations do toward furthering our gun rights.

taperxz
01-03-2013, 11:58 AM
Because it's where my office staff is.








-Brandon

We don't have staff; if you want to pay a salary or two for full time reliable help and coordinators who don't have jobs and babies then please donate at http://calgunsfoundation.org/donate.

So which is it?

taperxz
01-03-2013, 12:07 PM
And sometimes initiatives just die off, are pigeonholed, atrophy, etc.

Sometimes it's difficult to keep volunteer interest in them going. Sometimes it's difficult to get staffing. I've started a few initiatives that just withered. Others have been more successful

As a Board, we vote to allocate funds to the initiatives we think will bear the most fruit. We also understand that we're playing the long game. Things like Sunshine often will evolve to a point, and then may stall while we wait for an important precursor event to take place. Sometimes the precursor will happen in a week. Sometimes it will take years.

You earlier marvelled at how folks come out to defend Brandon and CGF when questions are raised about them. It's because we know how hard they work. It's because we're waking up to see that folks like Brandon were still sending emails out at 5AM while we were fast asleep. While he is amply able to defend himself from these questions (which read much more like accusations), we'd rather he focus his efforts on the good work that CGF and other "affiliated" organizations do toward furthering our gun rights.

JD, two years ago i spent 65 hours on a project that died after spending after hours and late nights gathering information. I never saw it implemented or was even told that it was not going forward. NOT ONE BIT of correspondence. It just disappeared.

Brandon has explained his point of view on the sunshine initiative, i understand what he is trying to accomplish there. I know there are things that must happen in the courts to move it forward.

I have volunteered many times since albeit somewhat reluctantly after the first project because of what didn't happen.

I fully respect Brandons will, dedication and hard work! I think Brandon knows by now that i certainly have a mind of my own and speak my peace without hesitation. Its made me IMHO successful at what i do.

Gray Peterson
01-03-2013, 12:21 PM
So which is it?

The office staff is not CGF staff.

taperxz
01-03-2013, 12:28 PM
The office staff is not CGF staff.

But CGF correspondence and funds are being delivered there. Per Brandon.

Through CCRKBA, (for FPC) run by Alan Gottlieb who is also the President of SAF, Brandons current employer.

This is why i think things are a little confusing.

taperxz
01-03-2013, 12:30 PM
It doesn't matter. I'm sure i have been excommunicated from anything CGF at this point for the questions i have asked. :shrug:

Whatever.

jdberger
01-03-2013, 12:50 PM
JD, two years ago i spent 65 hours on a project that died after spending after hours and late nights gathering information. I never saw it implemented or was even told that it was not going forward. NOT ONE BIT of correspondence. It just disappeared.

Brandon has explained his point of view on the sunshine initiative, i understand what he is trying to accomplish there. I know there are things that must happen in the courts to move it forward.

I have volunteered many times since albeit somewhat reluctantly after the first project because of what didn't happen.

I fully respect Brandons will, dedication and hard work! I think Brandon knows by now that i certainly have a mind of my own and speak my peace without hesitation. Its made me IMHO successful at what i do.

Which 65 hour project? Sunshine?

wildhawker
01-03-2013, 1:13 PM
So which is it?

Accounting staff are not project managers. As a contractor you know that. Are you done with the silly questions?

-Brandon

wildhawker
01-03-2013, 1:15 PM
One of my favorite YouTube vids:

soYKFWqVVzg

(And this this at GOOGLE (http://finance.yahoo.com/q?s=GOOG).)

-Brandon

taperxz
01-03-2013, 1:33 PM
Accounting staff are not project managers. As a contractor you know that. Are you done with the silly questions?

-Brandon

It doesn't matter. I'm sure i have been excommunicated from anything CGF at this point for the questions i have asked. :shrug:

Whatever.

Again, whatever. You call the questions silly, i see a nerve was struck, JMO

In my business as you know being able to delegate authority is paramount to being successful. Again JMO

Kestryll
01-03-2013, 1:34 PM
Are you done with the silly questions?

-Brandon

Well you're certainly done with being rude, demeaning and insulting to people for a few days.

Mstrty
01-03-2013, 1:48 PM
Now is not the time to start consuming our own. This got a little derailed, and included some wordplay. I hope in the months to come that we all keep our eye on the ball. I appreciate everything our volunteers do. History making events are in front of us. If we fracture we will fail.

taperxz
01-03-2013, 1:54 PM
One of my favorite YouTube vids:

soYKFWqVVzg

(And this this at GOOGLE (http://finance.yahoo.com/q?s=GOOG).)

-Brandon

I am not a fan of Marissa Mayer anyway, listen to her talk :facepalm:

Yahoo fired Scott Thompson who is a good man and would have done great things at Yahoo if it wasn't for a jealous, power hungry shareholder.

However in fairness we know Scott so take that for what it is.

solipsist
01-03-2013, 6:48 PM
After picking through the inter-webs i noticed some interesting tid bits about the organizations i listed above.

If someone can clarify this it would be appreciated!

So, CGF is a group fighting for CA rights and is a group that was started in San Carlos CA.

It appears they are now in Madera CA. Now, with that being said, I would assume that Brandon (Executive Director of CGF also employed by SAF has done this for a reason. (i have no idea why) Or is it something Gene wanted? He too is on the board for SAF.


I am also aware that CAL-FFL is owned and run by Brandon. Interestingly though i just saw that CCRKBA is the operation collecting the funds for the other organizations. CCRKBA is owned by Alan Gottlieb!!

Why are all these organizations needed if the end result could be that Alan Gottlieb is the end recipient of all the FPC donations?

Remember, Alan is in charge of SAF!

Is CGF and all our grass roots org's merging with SAF?

I would really like to know after all these years of supporting our local orgs and what the synopsis is for the future. It really does appear that CGF, CAL-FFL, are joining up with SAF and CCRKBA. Even the model for FPC eludes to becoming a network for nationwide 2A activism. (I think thats great!)

However, what about the local laws and lawsuits that are pending, been filed, or not finished?

I still see very little reporting on getting local sheriffs to issue in many counties or keeping us up to date here (dedicated county threads) on what they are working on like they used to.

Do we now have to pay $15 per org on FPC in order to find out when i am already a contributor to the organizations?

I am confused and concerned that our local gun org is either going away (SAF merge) or just not posting relevant information here on this site any more.



Thanks for your answers.

Thanks for supporting your Second Amendment rights and taking an interest in our efforts.

FPC is a simple coalition of affiliated 2A groups in California that share similar goals and wish to cooperate. Nothing more. This is a tad bit different than CRPA, which is an "official state association" of the NRA. You may be more familiar with that sort of arrangement.

As the national leader in Second Amendment civil rights litigation, you can access more information about ongoing and past lawsuits in California and all over the US at SAF.org.

CCRKBA works and corresponds at the legislative level and retains lobbyists in DC that work on behalf its members.

Phil W.
SAF

taperxz
01-03-2013, 7:48 PM
Thanks for supporting your Second Amendment rights and taking an interest in our efforts.

FPC is a simple coalition of affiliated 2A groups in California that share similar goals and wish to cooperate. Nothing more. This is a tad bit different than CRPA, which is an "official state association" of the NRA. You may be more familiar with that sort of arrangement.

As the national leader in Second Amendment civil rights litigation, you can access more information about ongoing and past lawsuits in California and all over the US at SAF.org.

CCRKBA works and corresponds at the legislative level and retains lobbyists in DC that work on behalf its members.

Phil W.
SAF

I already support SAF. I don't see how your post answers any of my questions regarding anything i have asked about in my OP.

I understand you are ONE of the national leaders in our caring for the 2A but the 2A coalition as a whole is still divided and fighting for a lions share of members to control the issue.

Keep up the good work! Your time would be better spent talking to the President, DiFi, and Joe Biden than posting and worrying about little ole me the average Joe American Citizen. Unlike some 2A advocates who seem to feel my opinions and querying of whats going on is like some sort of death sentence.:)

solipsist
01-03-2013, 8:53 PM
I already support SAF. I don't see how your post answers any of my questions regarding anything i have asked about in my OP.

I understand you are ONE of the national leaders in our caring for the 2A but the 2A coalition as a whole is still divided and fighting for a lions share of members to control the issue.

Keep up the good work! Your time would be better spent talking to the President, DiFi, and Joe Biden than posting and worrying about little ole me the average Joe American Citizen. Unlike some 2A advocates who seem to feel my opinions and querying of whats going on is like some sort of death sentence.:)

Thanks!

FPC is a brand new coalition of different 2A groups that will fight for your rights, so naturally people are going to be curious (and hopefully excited).

If you ever have any other questions always feel free to give me a call on the SAF main line. There are a few things you may not be fully informed on yet. For example, Joe Tartaro is the President of SAF, Alan is the Exec. V.P., and CCRKBA handles the "lobbying," I don't do that with SAF.

- Phil W.

taperxz
01-03-2013, 9:02 PM
Thanks!

FPC is a brand new coalition of different 2A groups that will fight for your rights, so naturally people are going to be curious (and hopefully excited).

If you ever have any other questions always feel free to give me a call on the SAF main line. There are a few things you may not be fully informed on yet. For example, Joe Tartaro is the President of SAF, Alan is the Exec. V.P., and CCRKBA handles the "lobbying," I don't do that with SAF.

- Phil W.

Thank you Phil for a nice well thought out presentation. I appreciate that you care about my concerns. However, as i stated, I'm just one person with one opinion. (not that important) Please stop the Federal Gov and our State gov of CA from going hog wild with our rights. Again, Thank You for your concerns about my opinions and questions.:) I may just call you tomorrow to ask a few more questions.

DVSmith
01-03-2013, 9:33 PM
Thanks!

FPC is a brand new coalition of different 2A groups that will fight for your rights, so naturally people are going to be curious (and hopefully excited).

If you ever have any other questions always feel free to give me a call on the SAF main line. There are a few things you may not be fully informed on yet. For example, Joe Tartaro is the President of SAF, Alan is the Exec. V.P., and CCRKBA handles the "lobbying," I don't do that with SAF.

- Phil W.
Phil W.,

For those of us who are not on the inside, it would be really pleasant if you would introduce yourself.

I also would love to know why FPC is needed when SAF is a leader in national 2A initiatives. Does FPC concentrate effort of diffuse it? I ask this as someone who is a life member and donor to several 2A orgs including CRPA, NRA and SAF. I am becoming increasingly frustrated by the multitude of organizations asking me to help keep my rights intact. Now, I have another. WTH(eck)? Add to that, my friends that think I should be plugged in and yet I am increasingly clueless... what do I say to them?

Please help with a bit of clarity.

scrubb
01-04-2013, 9:20 AM
After picking through the inter-webs i noticed some interesting tid bits about the organizations i listed above.

If someone can clarify this it would be appreciated!

So, CGF is a group fighting for CA rights and is a group that was started in San Carlos CA.

It appears they are now in Madera CA. Now, with that being said, I would assume that Brandon (Executive Director of CGF also employed by SAF has done this for a reason. (i have no idea why) Or is it something Gene wanted? He too is on the board for SAF.


I am also aware that CAL-FFL is owned and run by Brandon. Interestingly though i just saw that CCRKBA is the operation collecting the funds for the other organizations. CCRKBA is owned by Alan Gottlieb!!

Why are all these organizations needed if the end result could be that Alan Gottlieb is the end recipient of all the FPC donations?

Remember, Alan is in charge of SAF!

Is CGF and all our grass roots org's merging with SAF?

I would really like to know after all these years of supporting our local orgs and what the synopsis is for the future. It really does appear that CGF, CAL-FFL, are joining up with SAF and CCRKBA. Even the model for FPC eludes to becoming a network for nationwide 2A activism. (I think thats great!)

However, what about the local laws and lawsuits that are pending, been filed, or not finished?

I still see very little reporting on getting local sheriffs to issue in many counties or keeping us up to date here (dedicated county threads) on what they are working on like they used to.

Do we now have to pay $15 per org on FPC in order to find out when i am already a contributor to the organizations?

I am confused and concerned that our local gun org is either going away (SAF merge) or just not posting relevant information here on this site any more.



Thanks for your answers.

Dude, just join (if you have not) all of the gun rights orgs that you can afford....we need all the support we can. Now is not the time to be splitting hairs.

thedrickel
01-04-2013, 9:25 AM
http://www.geekzenith.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/shut-up-and-take-my-money.jpeg

eaglemike
01-04-2013, 9:37 AM
Typical sheeple talk. ^^^ I am not a follower, some of us like to make informed decisions. I like to make sure that when i donate, my money gets maximum affect.

It has not in the past. I hope the new site does well! It also needs to be followed through with though. Many projects and fire missions have been pushed to the way side.

Anyone that wants to donate blindly and on faith, feel free. None of this is to imply i don't support the efforts in regards to the OP, Brandon or CGF. I will always support their efforts! I will not blindly support on simple faith however.
Can you make your point without insults????
If someone has a differing point of view, it might be a good thing to accept that. My point of view on things can be different than your view on some of these, and I'm not insulting you for being a (insert whatever here) or having a different view.

Barney Fife
01-04-2013, 9:50 AM
Can you make your point without insults????
If someone has a differing point of view, it might be a good thing to accept that. My point of view on things can be different than your view on some of these, and I'm not insulting you for being a (insert whatever here) or having a different view.

Have you read the whole thread?
He civilly asked a question that I ask of every org I give money to, and every org that takes my money has an obligation to answer, and if they are on the level will do so cheerfully being proud of how they steward my money.

Taper has been one of the most vocal supporters of CGF here, and his civil question was met with scorn, double talk, and no content until Solipsist posted.

Money is too tight, and what is at stake is too important to invest it without KNOWING what is tangibly being done with it.

bwiese
01-04-2013, 1:32 PM
I think this summary puts it best:


1. "Afflilate" was a casually and perhaps poorly-chosen term used in a prior post. That word implies some
structural relationship, subordination, etc. - which simply doesn't exist; there is none between CGF & any
other group: "We are ourselves only."

"Affiliated with..."?? Sure - in the more casual, informal sense that we (obviously, duh!) work together with
other groups especially SAF.

[Contrast this with, say, the formal relationship between NRA & CRPA, where the latter is a formal state affiliate
of the former and (in theory, certainly far less so in the past before the lobbyist changed!) is obliged to follow
various positions set by the former.

2. Brandon Combs is the one paid (and part-time pay amount at that) CGFer.

He doesn't get much in real terms, and I'd bet that doesn't even cover unbilled activities etc of his. It's not really
wage-worthy but it can help him stay afloat and focused. CGF simply finally got to a point where we can't run
activities w/everyone holding a regular day job. [I'm still behind on a ton of phone calls & emails myself...]

But the Shop4-2A Amazon partner program is sucessful enough that it more than generates enough cash to not
only pay Brandon this limited amount but also put monies back 'in the pool' for other work (legal fees, printing, etc.)
Thank you all for supporting this program. And while monies are fungible, you could still say that, in a way, direct
CGF donations don't go to Brandon's salary - given the income provided by Shop-4-2A.

I cannot speak for Brandon's SAF job since I am not SAF (other than a life member) - but it's a full-time gig and
entirely separate from his CGF role (other than of course helping liase, which is also aided by Gene Hoffman also
now being on the board of SAF.)

[Other CGF board members just "go and do their sh*t". For example, when I go to SHOT or other venues I do it on
my own nickel. I'd be embarassed to have my steak dinners etc paid for by someone else than myself. Again, CGF
expenditures are primarily for legal fees, with some publication work also (usu at very effective rates), plus minor
insurance and accounting overhead.]

[NB: I will specifically note in advance that Kestryll's expenses/costs/work for CGN matters do NOT come out of CGF
till - Kes, is that an adequate explanation??]


3. Monies given to CGF stay in CGF. SAF funds don't magically come over to CGF either; when there is a joint effort
both orgs fund it. I can't see how anyone could infer otherwise - you just can't run books that way.


4. CGF's home (address) continues to be in Bay Area. Certain operational addresses for donation processing, accounting,
etc. may be changing as we leverage service providers providing basic operational/acctg/mailing services to other gun
orgs (SAF etc.) The individual billings are entirely separate between orgs.


There.

Barney Fife
01-04-2013, 1:51 PM
Everyone seems to be focusing (when addressing his post at all) on his introduction rather than his main point which deserves a respectful answer I would think.

I would really like to know after all these years of supporting our local orgs and what the synopsis is for the future. It really does appear that CGF, CAL-FFL, are joining up with SAF and CCRKBA. Even the model for FPC eludes to becoming a network for nationwide 2A activism. (I think thats great!)

However, what about the local laws and lawsuits that are pending, been filed, or not finished?

I still see very little reporting on getting local sheriffs to issue in many counties or keeping us up to date here (dedicated county threads) on what they are working on like they used to.

Do we now have to pay $15 per org on FPC in order to find out when i am already a contributor to the organizations?

I am confused and concerned that our local gun org is either going away (SAF merge) or just not posting relevant information here on this site any more.



Thanks for your answers.

Kestryll
01-04-2013, 2:42 PM
2. Brandon Combs is the one paid (and part-time pay amount at that) CGFer.

He doesn't get much in real terms...

I have to disagree Bill, since we are a registered non-profit and required by law to make our 990 tax returns public including lines 14 an 15 regarding wages and compensation I feel less concerned with having this discussion then I would were it a private company.

REMOVED

The Board voted for it and that is fine and in no way am I saying that some level of compensation is not justified, but we owe it to the people we are asking to donate money to us to be as above board and transparent as possible.


ETA: There are some who will feel upset that I posted this but anyone who looked at our tax filing for the last quarter could find and post the same thing.
Not saying anything and having someone post it later looks like we were hiding whereas working from transparency leaves nothing to get 'caught' with even if 'caught' is the wrong word.

eaglemike
01-04-2013, 2:47 PM
Have you read the whole thread?
He civilly asked a question that I ask of every org I give money to, and every org that takes my money has an obligation to answer, and if they are on the level will do so cheerfully being proud of how they steward my money.

Taper has been one of the most vocal supporters of CGF here, and his civil question was met with scorn, double talk, and no content until Solipsist posted.

Money is too tight, and what is at stake is too important to invest it without KNOWING what is tangibly being done with it.

Yes, I've read the thread. I've also read the (past) similar threads. This particular manner of presentation (and repetition) can be frustrating to all - the questioner, responder, and reader..

BTW, I've been a supporter as well. I'd be willing to bet I've thrown more $$$ at some of these initiatives than most here - but that doesn't give me (or anyone else) a pass on insulting behavior. (I'm also wondering if I've done more in San Diego County to support the local shooting community than the CRPA all by myself - but that's another repetitive thread)

pennys dad
01-04-2013, 3:04 PM
Wow finally some transparency and accountability coming from CGF.

I have to disagree Bill, since we are a registered non-profit and required by law to make our 990 tax returns public including lines 14 an 15 regarding wages and compensation I feel less concerned with having this discussion then I would were it a private company.

REMOVED

The Board voted for it and that is fine and in no way am I saying that some level of compensation is not justified, but we owe it to the people we are asking to donate money to us to be as above board and transparent as possible.

taperxz
01-04-2013, 3:14 PM
Yes, I've read the thread. I've also read the (past) similar threads. This particular manner of presentation (and repetition) can be frustrating to all - the questioner, responder, and reader..



You are free to ignore any post on this forum. I just chose to not keep my head in the sand forever. I actually find it amusing when people scream out "don't say anything, don't ask questions" More than likely those folks had some bad schooling when they were in school. I ask questions and i learn things. No one twisted the board members of CGF to become a 501 c 3.

I asked tough questions that IMHO people who contribute or volunteer time should know about.

I am still a supporter of CGF and their works.

eaglemike
01-04-2013, 3:24 PM
You are free to ignore any post on this forum. I just chose to not keep my head in the sand forever. I actually find it amusing when people scream out "don't say anything, don't ask questions" More than likely those folks had some bad schooling when they were in school. I ask questions and i learn things. No one twisted the board members of CGF to become a 501 c 3.

I asked tough questions that IMHO people who contribute or volunteer time should know about.

I am still a supporter of CGF and their works.
I'm not going to ignore something that does affect the community as a whole.

Since you do not have the franchise on repetitive questioning - I ask again, using different words - Why did you feel the requirement to label someone as a "sheeple" because they have a different point of view? I think that is counter-productive to the effort as a whole AND A VIOLATION OF THE FORUM RULES.

I too support the CGF and SAF (and NRA and FoNRA, etc), and I've never, ever said "don't ask questions." I say instead "ask as a civilized and responsible representative of the gun owning community."

ETA:OTOH, maybe that's who/how you are as a person (referring to the labeling). If that's how you live life, you have my apologies for not accepting you as you really are.

taperxz
01-04-2013, 3:31 PM
I'm not going to ignore something that does affect the community as a whole.

Since you do not have the franchise on repetitive questioning - I ask again, using different words - Why did you feel the requirement to label someone as a "sheeple" because they have a different point of view? I think that is counter-productive to the effort as a whole AND A VIOLATION OF THE FORUM RULES.

I too support the CGF and SAF (and NRA and FoNRA, etc), and I've never, ever said "don't ask questions." I say instead "ask as a civilized and responsible representative of the gun owning community."

ETA:OTOH, maybe that's who/how you are as a person (referring to the labeling). If that's how you live life, you have my apologies for not accepting you as you really are.

All sheeple refers to is people who follow but not ever lead. Its certainly not against forum rules either to use that terminology.

Kes has been in this thread. If it was against forum rules i would have been told so. Are we a little sensitive today?

Barney Fife
01-04-2013, 3:34 PM
Yes, I've read the thread. I've also read the (past) similar threads. This particular manner of presentation (and repetition) can be frustrating to all - the questioner, responder, and reader..

BTW, I've been a supporter as well. I'd be willing to bet I've thrown more $$$ at some of these initiatives than most here - but that doesn't give me (or anyone else) a pass on insulting behavior. (I'm also wondering if I've done more in San Diego County to support the local shooting community than the CRPA all by myself - but that's another repetitive thread)

Then my question is why so one sided?
From the outset he was treated rudely, his questions were dismissed and called silly. Granted this is one of the least offensive responses I have seen when anyone asks such questions here, but still.

DVSmith
01-04-2013, 3:48 PM
Gottlieb speaks on support of FPC in a safalerts email blast, was that so hard?:

Firearms Policy Coalition pledges “not one more inch.”

BELLEVUE, WA / SAN CARLOS, CA / MADERA, CA (January 4, 2013) - Firearms Policy Coalition, a new project of renowned Second Amendment rights advocacy organizations Citizens Committee for the Right to Keep and Bear Arms, California Association of Federal Firearms Licensees, Second Amendment Foundation, and The Calguns Foundation has been launched, noted managing director Brandon Combs. The Coalition’s website, firearmspolicy.org, was opened to the public in late December 2012.

The Firearms Policy Coalition (FPC) provides for an effective, NATO-like response to gun control campaigns and efficient, low-friction advocacy of litigation, legislation, education, and grassroots efforts that advance Second Amendment rights. Of the Coalition, Second Amendment Foundation Executive Vice President Alan Gottlieb said, “I’m proud to help usher in the next generation of gun rights activism. The new paradigm is, and must be, coordination, mutual-support, and unity. Those who would disarm America’s law-abiding people are rabid in their desire to assault gun owners’ Second Amendment, privacy, and property rights.”

“FPC immediately brings to the table leading Second Amendment advocacy groups, leadership, staff, volunteers, and hundreds of thousands of active supporters. This,” said Combs, “will enable superior communication, real-time collaboration, and scalable action to advance individual liberties and defend against promised attacks on civil rights by extremists like U.S. Senator Dianne Feinstein, Representative Carolyn McCarthy, California State Senator Leland Yee, and Illinois State Senators Dan Kotowski and Antonio Muñoz.”

“The coordination between stakeholders at all levels within FPC,” explained Calguns Foundation Chairman Gene Hoffman, “ is really key. We knew that, to meet the coming challenge head-on, a new model for our cause would have to be employed. As a seasoned Silicon Valley entrepreneur, I know how important it is to be agile and effective in today’s world - and what happens when you’re not.”

Excitement surrounding the Coalition and its fresh, positive approach to the issues that matter to gun owners has led to a rapid and steady increase of new individual members, which is expected to continue as new tools and organizational alliance members come online. FPC has already received numerous inquiries from interested gun rights organizations across the country and looks forwards to onboarding a number of organizations over the next quarter.

“We must now take on those who say that our Constitution is outdated, that it doesn’t mean what it says, and we must take them on together,” said Combs, CCRKBA Director of Advocacy and President of Cal-FFL. “Our rights are not negotiable and we are simply not going to give up another inch of our inalienable rights. This is the year of unity, focus, and resilience for gun rights activists at every level across the nation.”

State-level organizations seeking additional information or to explore joining the coalition should contact FPC at info@firearmspolicy.org or through the contact form at http://firearmspolicy.org/contact.

More information about FPC can be found at http://firearmspolicy.org/faq. FPC’s Facebook page is located at http://facebook.com/gunpolicy and its Twitter feed can be viewed at http://twitter.com/gunpolicy.

The Citizens Committee for the Right to Keep and Bear Arms (ccrkba.org) is dedicated to protecting your firearms rights. Its role is to educate grass root activists, the public, legislators and the media. CCRKBA's programs are designed to help all Americans understand the importance of the Second Amendment and its role in keeping Americans free.

The Second Amendment Foundation (saf.org) is the nation’s oldest and largest tax-exempt education, research, publishing and legal action group focusing on the Constitutional right and heritage to privately own and possess firearms. Founded in 1974, The Foundation has grown to more than 650,000 members and supporters and conducts many programs designed to better inform the public about the consequences of gun control.

The Calguns Foundation (calgunsfoundation.org) is a 501(c)3 non-profit organization which serves its members by providing Second Amendment-related education, strategic litigation, and the defense of innocent California gun owners from improper or malicious prosecution. The Calguns Foundation seeks to inform government and protect the rights of individuals to acquire, own, and lawfully use firearms in California.

California Association of Federal Firearms Licensees (calffl.org) is California's premier non-profit industry association of, by, and for firearms manufacturers, dealers, collectors, training professionals, shooting ranges, and others, advancing the interests of its members and the general public through strategic litigation, legislative efforts, and education. For more information or to join Cal-FFL, please visit calffl.org.

Contact:
Brandon Combs
info@firearmspolicy.org
425-454-4911

eaglemike
01-04-2013, 3:49 PM
Taper,
I did indeed miss some of the language directed towards you - you have my apology for singling you out - I was wrong.

bwiese
01-04-2013, 4:25 PM
I have to disagree Bill, since we are a registered non-profit
and required by law to make our 990 tax returns public including lines 14 an 15 regarding wages and compensation I feel less concerned with having this discussion then I would were it a private company.

Dismissing this as 'the limited amount', 'not really wage worthy' and such could easily be seen as trying to obfuscate the matter and hide things, even if as I think, that was not the case.

It wasn't, but I do get your point - my point was 'lack of extravagance' and "less than money brought it by Shop42A" etc.

[Dude, we also need to get you a new job ;-) ]


ETA: There are some who will feel upset that I posted this but anyone who looked at our tax filing for the last quarter could
find and post the same thing.Yeah, I get your point. Fair. I also didn't have the raw number at hand writing extemporaneoously.

(That's also why I didn't feel bad posting Alison's already-public info 6 years ago ;-) ]

morrcarr67
01-04-2013, 5:54 PM
Taper,
I did indeed miss some of the language directed towards you - you have my apology for singling you out - I was wrong.

It's nice to see someone on this board say "Sorry".

You are a good man Eagle.

GettoPhilosopher
01-04-2013, 11:56 PM
Typical sheeple talk. ^^^ I am not a follower, some of us like to make informed decisions. I like to make sure that when i donate, my money gets maximum affect.

It has not in the past. I hope the new site does well! It also needs to be followed through with though. Many projects and fire missions have been pushed to the way side.

Anyone that wants to donate blindly and on faith, feel free. None of this is to imply i don't support the efforts in regards to the OP, Brandon or CGF. I will always support their efforts! I will not blindly support on simple faith however.

I've got no problem with people asking questions; I'm not a follower myself, and I'm always clarifying and asking and analyzing. You've gotta make up your own mind.

That being said, we've had questions asked and largely answered in this thread. Yay! Also, everyone's gotta realize that A. we don't have 2,000 attorneys to throw at everything at the same time, and B. that means we have to constantly prioritize.

That means sometimes projects get delayed. Notice I said "delayed"; they're not cancelled, not called off, but we don't have the time or manpower to do them right now when we've got Huge Priority #1 looming on the horizon.

That being said, I get some of the frustration when you hear Gene tease about Cool Project #3, you wait for it, and then never hear much again. I'd love to see "Gene's Package" get finished, and I'm personally involved in a couple fire missions and potential lawsuits that have been put on hold. I get it, it can be frustrating. But I know they're on hold because the resources are needed for things like killing SB249, opposing this year's crop of legislation, and pushing ongoing cases like Richards. Those things are more important, and they lay the foundation for the other projects.


And--not bashing anyone here--posting a lot on CGN, while it has some value, comes in below other top priorities. Not saying "bah it's useless", not saying it should never happen, but it's not the top of the priority pile.

Gunlawyer
01-05-2013, 12:41 AM
What is private about asking publicly for clarification about a public statement of affiliation?

CGF is a non-profit asking people to voluntarily donate money to them, there should be very little that isn't able to be discussed publicly.
Other than things that violate attorney/client or are material/privileged in reference to current litigation every person who has donated to CGF deserves to be informed about who CGF is working with, where their donations are going, what the BoD is doing and what the projected course for the future is.

It's not a case of bickering or being snide.
It's simple honesty.
If CGF solicits donations from people those people are paying the bills and have a right to be informed, to expect transparency and to know what they are paying for what to expect in the future.

I and Im sure many others who contribute and support the cause whole-heartedly agree and support this statement.^^^^^^. I support SAF, CGF, and the NRA and transperency helps peope make decisions.

GettoPhilosopher
01-05-2013, 12:53 AM
Well you're certainly done with being rude, demeaning and insulting to people for a few days.

:facepalm:

Keep up the good work! Your time would be better spent talking to the President, DiFi, and Joe Biden than posting and worrying about little ole me the average Joe American Citizen. Unlike some 2A advocates who seem to feel my opinions and querying of whats going on is like some sort of death sentence.:)


I'm a bit confused here man. Here's how the thread read to me; feel free to correct me if you feel I'm wrong:

Taper: *asks some questions*
Brandon: *gives some answers, with a minor-to-moderate dose of normal Brandon snark*
Bill: *gives some more answers*
Other Posters Who Will Not Be Named: GRR! I'm ANGRY!
Taper: *some more questions*
Bill: *some more answers*
Brandon: *some more answers, with moderate snark*
Taper: I know you guys are bigger Summoning Bigger Fish, but hey, I'm donating money to these organizations; I should be able to get answers for these questions! (the implication being that you weren't satisfied with the completeness or content of the answers given)
SAF Phil: *gives even more answers*
Taper: Well don't mind me, I think you guys should be spending your time Summoning Bigger Fish, unlike SOME organizations that seem to be more concerned with arguing with people like me on the internet!


.....so yeah, a bit confused. You wanted answers, you were given answers, you expressed dissatisfaction with those answers, you got more answers, then you snarked about how SAF should spend their time working instead of answering your questions? I'm not attacking you, I'm honestly trying to understand where you're coming from. Again, I'm That Guy Who's Always Going To Ask 500 Questions And Not Rest Till He Has Satisfactory Answers; no hate for asking questions.




Now, to use this as a tangent to discuss something else!

Hi, my name's Aaron Bailey and I'm CGF & FPC's (unpaid, unofficial, informal, volunteer) Guy Who Handles Volunteers, Volunteer Efforts, And Grassroots Stuff. (I did the same thing for StopSB249) :seeya:

By its very nature, CGF ends up being a bit of a National Guard/Reserves model. We don't have 500 attorneys working full time across the state to tackle every issue/case/project/defense simultaneously, and even if we did....as noted previously, projects/cases/issues do not exist in a vacuum. Quite often Project A ends up stalled waiting for Case B to conclude, which means Project B (which was dependent on Project A) is also on hold.

Furthermore, we have to prioritize. If Yee's trying to turn every bullet-button firearm in CA into an instant felony, we have to focus on that....even if it means letting another project lag. And when CA gun owners get screwed by the police/courts and we step in to defend them, that necessarily means attorneys/admins/volunteers/etc are working on that defense, and not on Project A. Now if you, like the other guy above, feel that unless/until CGF/FPC/Cal-FFL/SAF/whoever makes your issue(s) a higher priority, you won't donate.....well, I personally feel it's short sighted, but it's your money and your choice and your right, so you won't get any more hell than that from me. *shrugs*

So, we engage with volunteers when/where/how they're needed. If you're an OC Calgunner who volunteered for the Sunshine Initiative, and there's nothing to do in OC at this time, you're not going to get a call until A. there is an OC project, or B. we have an All Hands On Deck moment like StopSB249 (psst! we've got all hands on deck moments coming up, so people who've signed up at calgunsfoundation.org/volunteer should expect to hear from me in the not too distant future :chris:). Even with attorneys, some projects just can't be completely delegated.

That being said, I've been thinking about--and discussing with others--lately how to better engage our volunteers in between "missions", so to speak. We're a small, almost entirely unpaid volunteer, focused org, so it's not like we can put out a monthly magazine or hold monthly chapter meetings in every county or something. But I'm all ears for suggestions on how to better engage y'all regularly. If you've got ideas for me, or want to discuss this, please shoot me an email at abailey@calgunsfoundation.org. I rarely can check CGN, but I do get emails and try to answer any chance I get (lunch breaks, in between diaper changes, while working on other CGF stuff, etc ;) C'est la vie)

Gunlawyer
01-05-2013, 1:03 AM
Because SAF is a part of the FPC website??? Do you have fetish with some of these people that makes them a god to you? These are lawsuits. Thats all they are! Not one of those LAWSUITS has done squat for 2A rights in this state yet.

Not true grasshopper. McDonald clearly extended 2a to California and is huge from a legal standpoint to securing California gun rights. Just wanted to point that out.

taperxz
01-05-2013, 8:52 AM
:facepalm:




I'm a bit confused here man. Here's how the thread read to me; feel free to correct me if you feel I'm wrong:

Taper: *asks some questions*
Brandon: *gives some answers, with a minor-to-moderate dose of normal Brandon snark*
Bill: *gives some more answers*
Other Posters Who Will Not Be Named: GRR! I'm ANGRY!
Taper: *some more questions*
Bill: *some more answers*
Brandon: *some more answers, with moderate snark*
Taper: I know you guys are bigger Summoning Bigger Fish, but hey, I'm donating money to these organizations; I should be able to get answers for these questions! (the implication being that you weren't satisfied with the completeness or content of the answers given)
SAF Phil: *gives even more answers*
Taper: Well don't mind me, I think you guys should be spending your time Summoning Bigger Fish, unlike SOME organizations that seem to be more concerned with arguing with people like me on the internet!


.....so yeah, a bit confused. You wanted answers, you were given answers, you expressed dissatisfaction with those answers, you got more answers, then you snarked about how SAF should spend their time working instead of answering your questions? I'm not attacking you, I'm honestly trying to understand where you're coming from. Again, I'm That Guy Who's Always Going To Ask 500 Questions And Not Rest Till He Has Satisfactory Answers; no hate for asking questions.




Now, to use this as a tangent to discuss something else!

Hi, my name's Aaron Bailey and I'm CGF & FPC's (unpaid, unofficial, informal, volunteer) Guy Who Handles Volunteers, Volunteer Efforts, And Grassroots Stuff. (I did the same thing for StopSB249) :nuts: :beatdeadhorse5:

By its very nature, CGF ends up being a bit of a National Guard/Reserves model. We don't have 500 attorneys working full time across the state to tackle every issue/case/project/defense simultaneously, and even if we did....as noted previously, projects/cases/issues do not exist in a vacuum. Quite often Project A ends up stalled waiting for Case B to conclude, which means Project B (which was dependent on Project A) is also on hold.

Furthermore, we have to prioritize. If Yee's trying to turn every bullet-button firearm in CA into an instant felony, we have to focus on that....even if it means letting another project lag. And when CA gun owners get screwed by the police/courts and we step in to defend them, that necessarily means attorneys/admins/volunteers/etc are working on that defense, and not on Project A. Now if you, like the other guy above, feel that unless/until CGF/FPC/Cal-FFL/SAF/whoever makes your issue(s) a higher priority, you won't donate.....well, I personally feel it's short sighted, but it's your money and your choice and your right, so you won't get any more hell than that from me. *shrugs*

So, we engage with volunteers when/where/how they're needed. If you're an OC Calgunner who volunteered for the Sunshine Initiative, and there's nothing to do in OC at this time, you're not going to get a call until A. there is an OC project, or B. we have an All Hands On Deck moment like StopSB249 (psst! we've got all hands on deck moments coming up, so people who've signed up at calgunsfoundation.org/volunteer should expect to hear from me in the not too distant future :chris:). Even with attorneys, some projects just can't be completely delegated.

That being said, I've been thinking about--and discussing with others--lately how to better engage our volunteers in between "missions", so to speak. We're a small, almost entirely unpaid volunteer, focused org, so it's not like we can put out a monthly magazine or hold monthly chapter meetings in every county or something. But I'm all ears for suggestions on how to better engage y'all regularly. If you've got ideas for me, or want to discuss this, please shoot me an email at abailey@calgunsfoundation.org. I rarely can check CGN, but I do get emails and try to answer any chance I get (lunch breaks, in between diaper changes, while working on other CGF stuff, etc ;) C'est la vie)

First of all YOU are a volunteer and have nothing to say in regards to anything CGF.

You are so far from being anyone that can answer the questions i asked it appears you are simply here to convolute my op and inject your own biased opinions, much like you have attempted in analyzing this ^^^ garbage.

IT IS ABSOLUTELY HILARIOUS! To hear all the "volunteers complain how hard they work" What you "volunteers" don't understand is that if a certain individual can't control/monitor your actions he can't have you or too many of you. There are what? A HUNDRED or so people waiting in the wings to be called to volunteer?

Gee, how do i know this? Because i have worked on various projects and seen how some of them operate. ALBEIT, one was for JD BERGER. I had NO idea it was not a CGF project. TYPICAL UNORGANIZED SYSTEM.

Again Aaron, NOTHING YOU HAVE SAID responds to my OP or anything i have stated in this thread. You should also keep your speculations in your own head. With you putting your thoughts on print, it appears the volunteers that are swamped with work are only swamped because of the fantasy land in their heads. ( indicative of your posts in this thread:))

AEC1
01-05-2013, 10:34 AM
Man, I thought I was the only one that flung poo around here...

i do have to say that the initial questions asked are very valid, and hae notyet been answerd. It is strange the money flow, the mail being forwarded out of state, the cross polinization of board members and such. I am not saying shady stuff is going on, I am not smart enough to figure that out, but it does smell fishy, and that in and of itself is a bad thing, even if all is on the up and up...

jdberger
01-05-2013, 2:36 PM
First of all YOU are a volunteer and have nothing to say in regards to anything CGF.

You are so far from being anyone that can answer the questions i asked it appears you are simply here to convolute my op and inject your own biased opinions, much like you have attempted in analyzing this ^^^ garbage.

IT IS ABSOLUTELY HILARIOUS! To hear all the "volunteers complain how hard they work" What you "volunteers" don't understand is that if a certain individual can't control/monitor your actions he can't have you or too many of you. There are what? A HUNDRED or so people waiting in the wings to be called to volunteer?

Gee, how do i know this? Because i have worked on various projects and seen how some of them operate. ALBEIT, one was for JD BERGER. I had NO idea it was not a CGF project. TYPICAL UNORGANIZED SYSTEM.

Again Aaron, NOTHING YOU HAVE SAID responds to my OP or anything i have stated in this thread. You should also keep your speculations in your own head. With you putting your thoughts on print, it appears the volunteers that are swamped with work are only swamped because of the fantasy land in their heads. ( indicative of your posts in this thread:))

I'd have to look at the thread asking for volunteers, but I'm 99% sure that I was clear that te MAIG project was NOT a CGF project.

taperxz
01-05-2013, 2:55 PM
I'd have to look at the thread asking for volunteers, but I'm 99% sure that I was clear that te MAIG project was NOT a CGF project.

Not that big of a deal. My statement was basically saying "my bad" for insinuating that it was a CGF project. It was a while ago and doing something for either you, Gene, Brandon or Bill would generally mean that it was in some part for CGF. I would think forum members would feel the same way.

This kind of adds to the confusion when stuff like this is done. Much in the same way i have asked questions in the OP.

Its not a slam on the CGF mission but rather trying to understand the organizational cross roads it appears to take.

I fully believe that most of the members are dedicated to 2A rights! Looking from the outside in, it really is tough to count the legs on an octopus that keeps moving and growing legs.

GettoPhilosopher
01-05-2013, 3:56 PM
You've expressed displeasure with how CGF handles volunteers. I'm the guy that handles the volunteers, so I figured I'd engage and see if I couldnt help address and/or fix some of the issues you see. I never claimed to know a thing about the corporate stuff.

Instead, you blew up at me randomly. Uh.....*pretends that makes sense*.

Again, I--on a volunteer basis--handle all the volunteer efforts for CGF and now to an extent FPC. If you have suggestions, complaints, issues, or ideas re CGF and volunteers, you should shoot me an email.

(as a PS, I'm assuming the rant about the fantasies in my head was a response to me saying I'm not on CGN often? If so, I never said it's because I "work soooo hard" for CGF. It's mostly because my day job and my family take up most of my time, for whatever that's worth)

First of all YOU are a volunteer and have nothing to say in regards to anything CGF.

You are so far from being anyone that can answer the questions i asked it appears you are simply here to convolute my op and inject your own biased opinions, much like you have attempted in analyzing this ^^^ garbage.

IT IS ABSOLUTELY HILARIOUS! To hear all the "volunteers complain how hard they work" What you "volunteers" don't understand is that if a certain individual can't control/monitor your actions he can't have you or too many of you. There are what? A HUNDRED or so people waiting in the wings to be called to volunteer?

Gee, how do i know this? Because i have worked on various projects and seen how some of them operate. ALBEIT, one was for JD BERGER. I had NO idea it was not a CGF project. TYPICAL UNORGANIZED SYSTEM.

Again Aaron, NOTHING YOU HAVE SAID responds to my OP or anything i have stated in this thread. You should also keep your speculations in your own head. With you putting your thoughts on print, it appears the volunteers that are swamped with work are only swamped because of the fantasy land in their heads. ( indicative of your posts in this thread:))



Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk 2

taperxz
01-05-2013, 4:05 PM
You've expressed displeasure with how CGF handles volunteers. I'm the guy that handles the volunteers, so I figured I'd engage and see if I couldnt help address and/or fix some of the issues you see. I never claimed to know a thing about the corporate stuff.

Instead, you blew up at me randomly. Uh.....*pretends that makes sense*.

Again, I--on a volunteer basis--handle all the volunteer efforts for CGF and now to an extent FPC. If you have suggestions, complaints, issues, or ideas re CGF and volunteers, you should shoot me an email.

(as a PS, I'm assuming the rant about the fantasies in my head was a response to me saying I'm not on CGN often? If so, I never said it's because I "work soooo hard" for CGF. It's mostly because my day job and my family take up most of my time, for whatever that's worth)



My concerns were stated in the OP. Anything that has to do with volunteers is a derivative of ensuing posts and were never my main concern.

The only thing i see in regards to volunteers is that perhaps CGF could get more volunteers if they were a little more transparent in how they operate. In turn, more volunteers would bring in the chance of qualified individuals that would help enhance what is happening and get things done more efficiently.

(NOT insinuating that the volunteers working now are not good, qualified people)

Tincon
01-05-2013, 4:25 PM
I'm a little concerned about CGF becoming an "SAF affiliate" (or that it has always been one). SAF is of course run by Alan Gotlieb, not exactly the most savoury of characters (See items like this: http://www.seattleweekly.com/2009-11-11/news/cover-story-barack-load/, or just google him).

I'm glad he has finally managed to be involved in some legal victories, after decades of failure it seems like one of his horses finally came in. But despite having hitched himself to a string of ultimately successful lawsuits, I'm not sure I'd trust him with my email address, let alone my credit card number. He has been known to use his mailing lists for deceptive marketing practices (here is one not too satisfied customer: http://www.thefirearmsforum.com/showthread.php?t=15940) and has been accused of selling the lists to third parties, making a tidy sum for himself in the process.

In fact all of his non-profits appear to spend most, if not all, funds raised with for-profit firms he also owns.

So I think you can understand the concern when it appears SAF has swallowed CGF, putting people like Brandon Combs on the payroll and taking over CGF's financial (and other?) functions. SAF celebrated attorney Alan Gura also now seems to be running all of CGF's legal actions. Isn't he already paid by SAF? What is the financial arrangement there exactly? Any way you cut it this seems like a sad day for CGF. If the current CGF leadership is unable or unwilling to handle the organizational responsibilities without turning to a convicted felon like Gottlieb, then maybe it is time for some new leadership.

GettoPhilosopher
01-05-2013, 5:20 PM
See, that's the reply you should have posted. Calm, reasonable, and to the point. :)

So, after multiple detailed replies from Brandon, Bill, and Phil from.SAF (often addressing your questions line by line), would you mind quickly summarizing what questions you still have?

My concerns were stated in the OP. Anything that has to do with volunteers is a derivative of ensuing posts and were never my main concern.

The only thing i see in regards to volunteers is that perhaps CGF could get more volunteers if they were a little more transparent in how they operate. In turn, more volunteers would bring in the chance of qualified individuals that would help enhance what is happening and get things done more efficiently.

(NOT insinuating that the volunteers working now are not good, qualified people)



Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk 2

taperxz
01-05-2013, 5:29 PM
See, that's the reply you should have posted. Calm, reasonable, and to the point. :)

So, after multiple detailed replies from Brandon, Bill, and Phil from.SAF (often addressing your questions line by line), would you mind quickly summarizing what questions you still have?





Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk 2

As others have noted, my questions have still not been answered. I don't expect them to be either.

You'll note how in one post, for the very first time it has now been noted that Brandon receives compensation from CGF as an executive from the foundation. (from a CGF board member)

How many other things are not being told to you or other donors?

I have NO PROBLEM with anyone working there getting fair compensation. I would like clearer disclosure prior to me donating though. At least on things that are to be disclosed upon request per law as a 501 c 3 corp.

It appears that this was done and not properly disclosed to its main media outlet which so far has been CGN. Of course that may very well change according to what Brandon has told me. Perhaps donors are donating at their own risk too on the legal side. I don't know the answer to that.

taperxz
01-05-2013, 5:46 PM
I think it would also be cool if CGF could give a reason for not pushing forward the Sunshine Initiative and explain to all the donors how their money was used or not used. Was it used for other projects? Why has it stalled?

If it has stalled will it still move forward? Is it now a failure? If its a failure should the members with the initiative banners be given either an explanation or a refund? One member PM'ed me explaining how he PM'ed Brandon asking about the Sunshine Initiative and why it has stalled?

BRANDON OFFERED HIM A REFUND FOR THE INITIATIVES STALLING OR LACK OF EXPECTATIONS.

Re: thank you

My last Brandon interaction was about my expectations of updates on the Sunshine Initiative. He was willing to refund my donation rather than rise to the expectations of a donor.

I would also like more concrete information on monies that were used to go after CRPA and the status of that project.

Is there a chance that if these monies were not donated that a compensation package would not be available?

Of course i have no knowledge of this and am again simply asking if anyone knows.

I just think its a shame that good ideas that rallied the forum went unfinished or at least have stalled with no updates.

Can you answer these questions? Gettophilosopher?

truthseeker
01-05-2013, 6:35 PM
taperxz,

After spending 30 minutes of my life reading this thread (and seeing who has been banned for a few days), I can honestly say that I agree with your point of view through the whole thread. Your questions IMO were on point and respectful.

However, I am sure there are "behind closed doors" sessions transpiring that we would and should not be privy to, for it may be counterproductive for this coalition or to CGF to publicly state or ALLOW people outside of the "closed door sessions" to know.

Hopefully there will be more answers to come from "the people in the know" about what this coalition REALLY MEANS for CA guns owners, but more importantly, for ALL of us as 2nd Amendment supporters!

Barney Fife
01-05-2013, 7:58 PM
Taper,
I did indeed miss some of the language directed towards you - you have my apology for singling you out - I was wrong.

Vivat!
Well said sir.
Even on an anonymous internet forum not easy at times.

jdberger
01-05-2013, 11:22 PM
Not that big of a deal. My statement was basically saying "my bad" for insinuating that it was a CGF project. It was a while ago and doing something for either you, Gene, Brandon or Bill would generally mean that it was in some part for CGF. I would think forum members would feel the same way.

This kind of adds to the confusion when stuff like this is done. Much in the same way i have asked questions in the OP.

Its not a slam on the CGF mission but rather trying to understand the organizational cross roads it appears to take.

I fully believe that most of the members are dedicated to 2A rights! Looking from the outside in, it really is tough to count the legs on an octopus that keeps moving and growing legs.

I'm sorry. I wasn't clear. I'm sure that I explicitly stated that the MAIG thing WAS NOT a CGF project.

blakdawg
01-06-2013, 12:34 AM
The bottom line is that working activist organizations usually don't have time for real-time transparency; most of them scramble to get their 990's filed on time (or don't manage to).

It's not really useful to compare a tiny activist/nonprofit org to something like the NRA or the Red Cross or the Sierra Club where they've got hundreds of paid staff and marketing people who spend all day thinking up manipulative crap to mail to the members to extract more donations.

Sure, Brandon could spend a bunch of time making webpages and newsletters making everyone feel great about how their $20 was spent - but frankly I'd rather have him keep working on actual progress, rather than just telling us how great we are and selling us banquet tickets or logo memorabilia.

And saying "oh, I'm gonna volunteer" is nice, but the people who are currently working don't have time or attention to wrangle tens or hundreds of unpaid, disorganized people who want to help, but only if they're doing something they feel like doing, and only when the time is right, and only if they've got time, and only as long as they feel like their volunteer *** has been kissed correctly.

If you like what CGF/NRA/CRPA/SAF/CCRKBA/whatever is doing, send them money. Or don't. But it's really tough for them to build infrastructure sufficient to cope with lots of people who want to contribute $10 and then get a lot of updates on exactly what their $10 was spent on, or donate 3 hours every 4th Saturday, or whatever. And, frankly, I'm glad they're not spending time on that sort of infrastructure, because in the real world it turns out to be mostly bull**** that's used to extract more $ from those volunteers.

People who do activist things like CGF don't do it because they want to spend a lot of time doing administrative/management BS and kissing the butts of donors and volunteers and whatever - they do it because they care about gun rights, and often because they want to be known as someone who's personally done things to advance the cause of gun rights. So expecting them to stop working on substantive issues and to spend a lot of time on internal development is just unrealistic - that sort of crap is boring, and people only do it because they get paid to do it, and CGF and these other micro orgs don't have the budget for that sort of thing. There are other gun orgs that apparently do have budget to have a bunch of paid staff who put together newsletters nobody reads and have banquets talking about how magnificently they've managed the staff who have managed to extract enough $ from the membership to keep the entire thing running for another year so they can all get paid to play office. And if that's what you want, it's certainly available, but I'm personally delighted that CGF isn't that and isn't very close to that.

Or the alternative is to go do your own thing - figure out something useful to do, and do it. Sometimes this works out well - if Alan Gura had listened to the old fogies at NRA, he never would have taken Heller to the Supreme Court. On the other hand, if some of the open carry people had listened to the old fogies in the CA gun rights movement, open carry of handguns and long guns would probably still be legal in CA. Sometimes the pushy new guys are right. Sometimes the pushy new guys are wrong.

But the existing orgs aren't likely to welcome you into their inner circle - it takes a lot of time/effort to integrate new people and their ideas, and they probably want to do a lot of the work (and get the corresponding attention) themselves. So deal with it. Be happy to contribute by writing a check, or just start doing stuff on your own and maybe you'll figure out a way to cooperate with the other guys in the future. The CGF people haven't ended up working with the national orgs because the orgs called them on the phone out of the blue - they got there by working and being effective. Before Alan Gura won Heller, people made fun of him.

Realistically, there's never going to be some perfect webpage that tells everyone exactly what's going on, and why, and what's coming next. That stuff exists only in fantasy worlds, spun by marketing people who are playing you for money. CGF shows every sign of being, essentially, an unconventional warfare unit operating beyond the traditional battle lines, and they're getting complaints because they haven't filled out the proper supply requisitions and all of the TPF reports. And bless them for that. Someday maybe CGF will get old and fat and they'll have a big endowment and they'll play games with Roberts' Rules of Order to maintain control of that endowment while laughing their way to the bank. And if they do, **** 'em. But today, that's not them, and let's not try to turn them into that.

And, for what it's worth, I don't know squat about the principals of CGF or know any more about them than what all of us read here and otherwise on the web. I get frustrated with them, too, but it's unrealistic to expect things to be a lot better for our frustration levels while continuing to make progress for gun rights, and I'd rather be frustrated and shooting my AR's versus knowing exactly how my donations were used to fund a detailed webpage which carefully documented a losing fight to keep an effective 2A.

Barney Fife
01-06-2013, 7:34 AM
What a great argument.

So send ME your money and I will defend the 2A for you. (Not really I just need a new car, but hey! Who needs transparency!??) I don't have TIME to be accountable with your money, just trust me!
Ok, I'm a felon in four states, but I don't have time to tell you that. ;)

First off to keep non-profit status a level of transparency is required by law.
Secondly I get a kick out of how everyone here will cross examine till next Tuesday every charity giving food to the needy or something and point out every discrepancy, but if a group says they are "pro 2A" you decide that they MUST be important, relevant, and honest and to ask them what you would ask of ANY OTHER non-profit group is being divisive and against the 2A. Even to the point of watching them give non-substantive rah,rah speeches while dodging valid innocent questions and pillorying anyone ho dares to ask them.

Well unless it's CRPA or NRA then we need to look them over with a fine tooth comb and a brace of accountants.

taperxz
01-06-2013, 8:12 AM
I'm sorry. I wasn't clear. I'm sure that I explicitly stated that the MAIG thing WAS NOT a CGF project.

There is NO reason to be sorry. I wanted to do the work and enjoyed it! I was just disappointed that after all the work, nothing happened with all the research.

For those that don't know, the mission was to find the webpage of every single city of every member/mayor in the country who joined MAIG and locate an address, phone number, email, or website. This project then was going to send a letter to all of them to explain what MAIG and Bloomberg were really about.

Many mayors joined under the impression that MAIG was only about illegal guns and not legal gun owned by honest law abiding citizens.

After all the work was done, all that was needed to finish was a letter stating the facts. The letter never got drafted or sent out. THAT WAS ALL THAT WAS LEFT TO DO.

Evidently this was not an OFFICIAL CGF project, even though it was solicited here, started by a board member and worked on by CGF supporters.

It was 100% my mistake to make the assumption here that it was a CGF project! I am sorry for the mis representation and should not have brought it up here. Again my bad.

JDberger is a good man and a dedicated 2A rights activist as well as the other board members.

hoffmang
01-06-2013, 8:58 PM
So I think you can understand the concern when it appears SAF has swallowed CGF, putting people like Brandon Combs on the payroll and taking over CGF's financial (and other?) functions. SAF celebrated attorney Alan Gura also now seems to be running all of CGF's legal actions.

Sigh. Take a week or two away from the boards to fight the Newtown mess and look at the crap pile one has to wade back into.

1. CGF is most certainly not controlled by SAF. I was invited to join their board. Brandon was offered partial employment and he took it. Check processing has been a pain in our behind as you can see from a bunch of previous posts, so we've chosen to use the resources there to get those done faster. Hint - part of FPC is to take away some of these real infrastructure headaches from the good gun groups in the worst anti-gun states.

2. Alan Gura has a direct relationship with CGF had has for as long or longer than he has for SAF. CGF generally gets Alan's excellent work for free except when we hire him directly to do certain projects (usually amicus briefs in non primary cases.) The CGF board is TOTALLY independent from SAF beyond the simple fact that I sit on both. Everyone on both boards is quite aware and there is generally no conflict since the only actual relationship is that we split non Gura attorney's fees in many cases.

FPC is a formalization of the StopSB249 project with some aspirations to make the infrastructure of effective gun rights state orgs in about 7-10 states much better. It's also an attempt to build a better GunRights 2.0 brand.

It's pretty clear from the complaints about form over substance in some gun rights organizations over the last 30 days, that development in this area is needed.

And taperxz, Do you really think that I'm so lacking in cojones that I would use a sock puppet instead of just posting from this account? A guy tries to take a little down time...

ETA: We've certainly explored similar partnerships with other gun rights orgs in the past but we've been told directly and indirectly that it would have to be "following their lead." That's not the case here.

-Gene

GettoPhilosopher
01-06-2013, 10:21 PM
As others have noted, my questions have still not been answered. I don't expect them to be either.

You'll note how in one post, for the very first time it has now been noted that Brandon receives compensation from CGF as an executive from the foundation. (from a CGF board member)

How many other things are not being told to you or other donors?

I have NO PROBLEM with anyone working there getting fair compensation. I would like clearer disclosure prior to me donating though. At least on things that are to be disclosed upon request per law as a 501 c 3 corp.

It appears that this was done and not properly disclosed to its main media outlet which so far has been CGN. Of course that may very well change according to what Brandon has told me. Perhaps donors are donating at their own risk too on the legal side. I don't know the answer to that.

The fact Brandon is paid full-time has been discussed on CGN before. It got brought up in a thread a month ago (for example) when I said "correct me if I'm wrong, but CGF is all volunteer; the only people we pay are the attorneys", and Gene came in to clarify Brandon was paid PT. Which confuses me, because you were a part of that thread....so you knew that Brandon's being paid.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=9883371&postcount=138

blakdawg
01-06-2013, 10:35 PM
What a great argument.

So send ME your money and I will defend the 2A for you. (Not really I just need a new car, but hey! Who needs transparency!??) I don't have TIME to be accountable with your money, just trust me!
Ok, I'm a felon in four states, but I don't have time to tell you that. ;)

First off to keep non-profit status a level of transparency is required by law.
Secondly I get a kick out of how everyone here will cross examine till next Tuesday every charity giving food to the needy or something and point out every discrepancy, but if a group says they are "pro 2A" you decide that they MUST be important, relevant, and honest and to ask them what you would ask of ANY OTHER non-profit group is being divisive and against the 2A. Even to the point of watching them give non-substantive rah,rah speeches while dodging valid innocent questions and pillorying anyone ho dares to ask them.

Well unless it's CRPA or NRA then we need to look them over with a fine tooth comb and a brace of accountants.

The big difference I see between CGF, some other established "gun rights" organizations, and some other relatively new thing is that CGF and the people within/behind CGF have demonstrated results.

I don't really give a **** what they spend money on, if they're making progress; and I don't think there's any serious argument that CGF hasn't made some good progress in the relatively short time they've been around.

And the same is true of NRA. While I'm not wild about everything they do or say or spend money on, there's also no serious argument that they haven't done a lot to protect the 2A. Imperfectly, yes, but they're doing it. As far as I'm concerned, as long as gun banners go on TV and write editorials about how the NRA is killing children and ruining America, I'll keep sending my $ to the NRA.

And "transparency" is a nice buzzword, but in many (most?) cases it just means the org has devoted a fraction of its budget to making up bull**** to keep the suckersdonors happy.

taperxz
01-07-2013, 8:19 AM
Sigh. Take a week or two away from the boards to fight the Newtown mess and look at the crap pile one has to wade back into.

1. CGF is most certainly not controlled by SAF. I was invited to join their board. Brandon was offered partial employment and he took it. Check processing has been a pain in our behind as you can see from a bunch of previous posts, so we've chosen to use the resources there to get those done faster. Hint - part of FPC is to take away some of these real infrastructure headaches from the good gun groups in the worst anti-gun states.

2. Alan Gura has a direct relationship with CGF had has for as long or longer than he has for SAF. CGF generally gets Alan's excellent work for free except when we hire him directly to do certain projects (usually amicus briefs in non primary cases.) The CGF board is TOTALLY independent from SAF beyond the simple fact that I sit on both. Everyone on both boards is quite aware and there is generally no conflict since the only actual relationship is that we split non Gura attorney's fees in many cases.

FPC is a formalization of the StopSB249 project with some aspirations to make the infrastructure of effective gun rights state orgs in about 7-10 states much better. It's also an attempt to build a better GunRights 2.0 brand.

It's pretty clear from the complaints about form over substance in some gun rights organizations over the last 30 days, that development in this area is needed.

And taperxz, Do you really think that I'm so lacking in cojones that I would use a sock puppet instead of just posting from this account? A guy tries to take a little down time...

ETA: We've certainly explored similar partnerships with other gun rights orgs in the past but we've been told directly and indirectly that it would have to be "following their lead." That's not the case here.

-Gene

I don't give your cojones much thought if at all. My comment was made more tongue in cheek as the response seemed identical to what I would expect you to say almost verbatim.

taperxz
01-07-2013, 8:22 AM
The fact Brandon is paid full-time has been discussed on CGN before. It got brought up in a thread a month ago (for example) when I said "correct me if I'm wrong, but CGF is all volunteer; the only people we pay are the attorneys", and Gene came in to clarify Brandon was paid PT. Which confuses me, because you were a part of that thread....so you knew that Brandon's being paid.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=9883371&postcount=138

Your comments have no merit in this thread as all questions in the OP can only be addressed by board members of CGF or the alleged affiliated orgs.

Tincon
01-07-2013, 8:22 AM
CGF is most certainly not controlled by SAF. I was invited to join their board. Brandon was offered partial employment and he took it. Check processing has been a pain in our behind as you can see from a bunch of previous posts, so we've chosen to use the resources there to get those done faster. Hint - part of FPC is to take away some of these real infrastructure headaches from the good gun groups in the worst anti-gun states.


That actually concerns me even more. I can't help but wonder if CGF also exposing the personal information CGF contributors to Gottlieb/SAF, including email addresses, donation amounts, and other information which is potentially lucrative to Gottlieb. Apparently Gottlieb sells this sort of information to direct-mail marketers for his own personal profit though his for-profit businesses, sort of like those scam sites that promise to enter you into a "contest" if you enter your personal information. Now you are saying that not only is CGF being harvested in this way, but he also also looking to obtain similar information from all state gun groups? Do you really think Gottlieb is contributing these "resources" without any cost?

Gottlieb got a bigger payday through his side business, a for-profit enterprise called Merril Mail-Marketing Inc., also housed at Liberty Park. Merril (Gottlieb's middle name) earned $384,000 from SAF and $211,000 from the Citizens Committee in 2008 for mail and marketing services. Merril also sells the names and addresses of SAF and Citizens Committee members, Gun Week subscribers, and even NRA members to direct-mail clients seeking to target conservatives—and scare them into buying something.
(Source: http://www.seattleweekly.com/2009-11-11/news/cover-story-barack-load/3/)

What agreement, if any, does CGF have in place with Gottlieb and the various for-profit and non-profit entities he controls to protect the privacy of the personal information of CGF contributors?


The CGF board is TOTALLY independent from SAF beyond the simple fact that I sit on both.


That is good to hear at least, so you can confirm that no one affiliated with CGF, besides Brandon Combs, is getting paid at in any way by any of Gottlieb's for-profit or "non-profit" entities?

eaglemike
01-07-2013, 8:34 AM
Your comments have no merit in this thread as all questions in the OP can only be addressed by board members of CGF or the alleged affiliated orgs.
Then why are you posting here??? You want answers from them - go directly to them.

You ask a question - and then you are the only one able to determine if your question is answered - that's how I read your posts. So you can continue to decide FOREVER that you didn't get the answer you want, question not answered adequately, etc. Very interesting....

If you are getting answers you want, or the results you want, don't send them money, don't support. It's that simple.

ETA: this isn't the CGF/SAF etc vendor question and inquisition area.

taperxz
01-07-2013, 9:50 AM
Then why are you posting here??? You want answers from them - go directly to them.

You ask a question - and then you are the only one able to determine if your question is answered - that's how I read your posts. So you can continue to decide FOREVER that you didn't get the answer you want, question not answered adequately, etc. Very interesting....

If you are getting answers you want, or the results you want, don't send them money, don't support. It's that simple.

ETA: this isn't the CGF/SAF etc vendor question and inquisition area.

It takes two to tango. Several Cgf board members know how to contact me directly. One of them gave me an answer. The answer was that I had "tunnel vision". That was it.

The CGF mission statement is to fully support this forum. This forum is their main source of communication so I am using it.

Perhaps my tunnel vision is a product of CGF projects not being finished, pigeon holed or abandoned without explanations?

Again, not insinuating, just asking.

HowardW56
01-07-2013, 10:11 AM
Again, not insinuating, just asking.

What is your real agenda? Is it to harm the foundation in some way? Discredit it? Did someone piss in your cornflakes?

You seem to get some sort of glee from insulting volunteers, taking your shots at the orginization and its board members.

You've taken your shots in several threads... So why don't you tell us all what you're real agenda is?

tcrpe
01-07-2013, 10:18 AM
You've taken your shots in several threads... So why don't you tell us all what you're real agenda is?

Good question.

taperxz
01-07-2013, 10:20 AM
What is your real agenda? Is it to harm the foundation in some way? Discredit it? Did someone piss in your cornflakes?

You seem to get some sort of glee from insulting volunteers, taking your shots at the orginization and its board members.

You've taken your shots in several threads... So why don't you tell us all what you're real agenda is?

My agenda is to understand who and why i would donate money to so the funds can be used to their full potential.

How can I, an anonymous poster on CGN harm the foundation or discredit it with questions about its structure or how it uses donations?

Dis credit volunteers? I have volunteered and i still am.

I have taken NO shots at any board members. ANY remarks made by me in anyway, if they exist, were only replies to others who doubt or question my questions in an attempt to understand what i asked in the OP. You know how these threads go, they grow different conversations that get off track.

taperxz
01-07-2013, 10:48 AM
I'm sorry. I wasn't clear. I'm sure that I explicitly stated that the MAIG thing WAS NOT a CGF project.

There is NO reason to be sorry. I wanted to do the work and enjoyed it! I was just disappointed that after all the work, nothing happened with all the research.

For those that don't know, the mission was to find the webpage of every single city of every member/mayor in the country who joined MAIG and locate an address, phone number, email, or website. This project then was going to send a letter to all of them to explain what MAIG and Bloomberg were really about.

Many mayors joined under the impression that MAIG was only about illegal guns and not legal gun owned by honest law abiding citizens.

After all the work was done, all that was needed to finish was a letter stating the facts. The letter never got drafted or sent out. THAT WAS ALL THAT WAS LEFT TO DO.

Evidently this was not an OFFICIAL CGF project, even though it was solicited here, started by a board member and worked on by CGF supporters.

It was 100% my mistake to make the assumption here that it was a CGF project! I am sorry for the mis representation and should not have brought it up here. Again my bad.

JDberger is a good man and a dedicated 2A rights activist as well as the other board members.

Does this exchange sound like a person bashing anyone personally? Read through the posts, you will see i have been cordial the entire thread. IMHO the questions i have just don't want to be answered with any direct effect in regards to the OP.

I would be more impressed if a board member told me they just don't want to answer the questions because its none of my bee's wax. That would at least let me know who i want to donate to or not.

FWIW i was going to write a rather large check (for me anyway) to the org of my choice. My better half got to choose last year;) We do this every year. The questions i had above are questions i had when deciding. When i saw FPC i was curious, and did some research. Some of that was looking at the progress in the Sunshine forum. I ended up choosing another org. (not 2A related, heart disease as my dad had a recent heart attack) because of the questions i had. I waited till after the first to post my questions here as to not be influenced or be disappointed in the answers, which most certainly would have happened and has as you can see here.



I feel bad about it really. I wanted to donate. No other agenda:)

hoffmang
01-07-2013, 8:01 PM
If you are worried about how we handle your check, donate via credit card or paypal. It's easier for you and us.

Unless you want to volunteer to process our checks, data entry them all, and take the deposits to the bank once a week and post a bond so we can trust you to not run off with the dollars. And guarantee to not flake too.

Please stop making mountains out of molehills.

-Gene

taperxz
01-07-2013, 8:13 PM
If you are worried about how we handle your check, donate via credit card or paypal. It's easier for you and us.

Unless you want to volunteer to process our checks, data entry them all, and take the deposits to the bank once a week and post a bond so we can trust you to not run off with the dollars. And guarantee to not flake too.

Please stop making mountains out of molehills.

-Gene

I was looking for clarity on HOW you use my money, not how you process it.

taperxz
01-07-2013, 8:15 PM
Lets see or have you clarify what you do with donations. Do you have a problem with that?

taperxz
01-07-2013, 8:16 PM
Lets see or have you clarify what you do with donations. Do you have a problem with that?

hoffmang
01-07-2013, 8:47 PM
Lets see or have you clarify what you do with donations. Do you have a problem with that?

Huh?

We don't rent or sell the CGF donor list. We've sent some joint announcements to it via email which you've seen if you're on it. Nice little opt out option in every one.

What we use it for is defending gun owners, fighting bills, and attacking laws in courts.

-Gene

taperxz
01-07-2013, 9:08 PM
Huh?

We don't rent or sell the CGF donor list. We've sent some joint announcements to it via email which you've seen if you're on it. Nice little opt out option in every one.

What we use it for is defending gun owners, fighting bills, and attacking laws in courts.

-Gene

Thank You. These are some of the things i was asking for. Brandon was a little secretive when i was asking him questions on the phone. I wanted to know what was being done with donations. I was going to write a pretty large check to the foundation. I decided not to based on the secretive nature that "i perceived"

You guys think i'm out to bash CGF. I simply wanted real intel on progress and where the foundation was going prior to writing this check. THATS IT.

No, i was not going to say i want this information so i can write the check.

All that threw me off was the formation of FPC, and the SAF and other orgs attachment. I'm not going to donate to something i don't fully understand. I'm not counting the $50 bucks here or there either. I have no problem with that. Any way, no big deal! Hopefully people will have less heart attacks with the money I sent them.

You guys seem a little paranoid is all. Orgs that take donations should not expect much money from people that are blind. JMO

I am still a CGF supporter and am rooting for you guys and your mission. What ever that may be at this time.

taperxz
01-07-2013, 9:11 PM
Huh?

We don't rent or sell the CGF donor list. We've sent some joint announcements to it via email which you've seen if you're on it. Nice little opt out option in every one.

What we use it for is defending gun owners, fighting bills, and attacking laws in courts.

-Gene

TO CLARIFY! I was not insinuating that CGF would sell information! I was talking about FPC. This has been a practice of Alan Gottlieb. So my point was that if he does that with his orgs, and Brandon is working for him, is the same thing going to happen with FPC? NOT CGF.

ALL my questions came about with the inception of FPC the connection to SAF, call-ffl and CCRKBA. There was an appearance of some kind of merger perhaps? Then of course as the thread grew so did the concerns with left field attacks on me for asking. Like i said earlier, these threads tend to grow legs.

sigma6
01-07-2013, 9:30 PM
I think taper needs to get in touch with the treasurer/CGF accountant. He/she should be able to provide a prospectus or at least a balance sheet. The way I look at it, is like the way I look at my church. Both are non profit but I can clearly see how much donations are coming quarterly. I can see the salaries of all paid employees, how much they spent on remodeling/infrastructure. They even have tallied how much special projects/fundraiser cost or earned. So I know that annual festival proceeds go to the school to offset supplies.

AEC1
01-07-2013, 9:33 PM
Gene, wanting accountability on how the people we give money to is a good thing. Trusting that an orginization is doing the right thing is a bad thing. If more people demanded our government gave a better account of its finacial transactions our economy would be better.

You want my money, you had better be willing to explain how it is handled, and where it is spent. As I member of the military I fully understand strategic suprise, so I can except and answer that we are spending so much on a project that we cant discuss, however that will only float to far downstream before people will want to know what they are spending money on.

I realize that many on this board (CGN) and most on the CGF are loaded, but for me to find more then 20-30 bucks to send in, I have to decide where else in the budget that is comming from. And you really need to humble yourselves and be willing to answer questions about what you are doing with the money I took from say, my family vacation next year to send you.

To me and many others, a 50 dollar check is a mountain, to you perhaps, that is chump change. and we are all the chumps that you expect to send it...

wildhawker
01-07-2013, 9:33 PM
Huh? I wasn't "secretive" on the phone, John.

I not only told you some of what we'd been doing behind the scenes, but also why I haven't updated the website (new site coming) and some projects that haven't been publicly announced yet.

Recall that I also said you could email/call me or Gene anytime if you had questions or concerns. I gave you Gene's email address. You've since elected to not do that, as far as I know.

-Brandon

taperxz
01-07-2013, 9:49 PM
Huh? I wasn't "secretive" on the phone, John.

I not only told you some of what we'd been doing behind the scenes, but also why I haven't updated the website (new site coming) and some projects that haven't been publicly announced yet.

Recall that I also said you could email/call me or Gene anytime if you had questions or concerns. I gave you Gene's email address. You've since elected to not do that, as far as I know.

-Brandon

I'm sorry Brandon, that was really the impression i got. Thats why i said sorry for bothering you because you said you were really busy. I don't ever recall getting Gene's email, i don't know Gene and would never just call him or bother him, who am i? (seriously) You wanted me to call you from your message you sent but said you were really sick. (i didn't want to bother you while being sick after the fact of my decision)



My wife and i donate to one org every year. What we donate to is very important to us. Its not the money, its the cause. Both of us need to feel comfortable about the decision. When i asked a few questions i got the feeling of "wait and see" When this thread started, you could have called me but chose not to. (perhaps you were to sick to) I understand that!

I still support you guys. MAYBE if there was a place for someone to see exactly what you guys were doing, these questions would not arise. You and the foundation have a great thing going. I hope you can win hearts and minds of all.

thedrickel
01-07-2013, 9:51 PM
How much of a bond?

hoffmang
01-07-2013, 11:43 PM
How much of a bond?

Did I mention I love you? :43:

-Gene

lorax3
01-08-2013, 12:07 AM
I have to disagree Bill, since we are a registered non-profit and required by law to make our 990 tax returns public including lines 14 an 15 regarding wages and compensation I feel less concerned with having this discussion then I would were it a private company.

For purposes of information, I have attached the The Calguns Foundation's IRS form 990 from both 2008 and 2010. For comparison, I have also attached The Second Amendment Foundation's 990 for 2011.

CGF IRS Form 990 - 2008
(http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=191257&stc=1&d=1357632131)
CGF IRS Form 990 - 2010 (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=191258&stc=1&d=1357632131)

SAF IRS Form 990 - 2011 (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=191256&stc=1&d=1357631811)

Would someone from CGF mind posting up 2011? I believe in an earlier post someone mentioned that Gene and Brandon were compensated part-time, I assume this would be reflected in 2011's 990. (At least for Gene as compensation for board members is noted in a separate area)

Gray Peterson
01-08-2013, 12:43 AM
For purposes of information, I have attached the The Calguns Foundation's IRS form 909 from both 2008 and 2010. For comparison, I have also attached The Second Amendment Foundation's 909 for 2011.

CGF IRS Form 909 - 2008
(http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=191257&stc=1&d=1357632131)
CGF IRS Form 909 - 2010 (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=191258&stc=1&d=1357632131)

SAF IRS Form 909 - 2011 (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=191256&stc=1&d=1357631811)

Would someone from CGF mind posting up 2011? I believe in an earlier post someone mentioned that Gene and Brandon were compensated part-time, I assume this would be reflected in 2011's 909. (At least for Gene as compensation for board members is noted in a separate area)

990, not 909. :p

lorax3
01-08-2013, 12:53 AM
990, not 909. :p

Whoops! Not enough sleep...

wildhawker
01-08-2013, 1:18 AM
Here's a useful folder: http://calffl.org/archive/gunorg990s

Here's a useful file: http://calffl.org/archive/gunorg990s/990_analysis.pdf

jdberger
01-08-2013, 1:35 AM
Gene's only compensation is the bourbon I ply him with.

...and my sunny disposition.

We bought Bill a unitard in 2009. We used our own money.

Ivan bought a whole mess of handguns, decided he didn't need that many, and reconsidered again - all with his own screaming credit card.

Wes bought some weird leprechaun outfit that he keeps trying to get us to drive out to Kern to see.. Last I heard, they filmed Texas Chainsaw Massacre out there. I'm not going.

Jim bought mustache gel.

And Kes got a private plane with the CGN logo on the tail. There are pictures in another thread.

And that's what is happening with the donations.

Oh, and lawsuits, legal defense, legal projects, amicus briefs and a whole lot of other stupid stuff like that.

Some Guy
01-08-2013, 6:30 AM
If donations bought Wes a leprechaun outfit I feel he is obligated to post pics of himself wearing said outfit.

HowardW56
01-08-2013, 7:43 AM
Thank You. These are some of the things i was asking for. Brandon was a little secretive when i was asking him questions on the phone. I wanted to know what was being done with donations. I was going to write a pretty large check to the foundation. I decided not to based on the secretive nature that "i perceived"

You guys think i'm out to bash CGF. I simply wanted real intel on progress and where the foundation was going prior to writing this check. THATS IT.

No, i was not going to say i want this information so i can write the check.

All that threw me off was the formation of FPC, and the SAF and other orgs attachment. I'm not going to donate to something i don't fully understand. I'm not counting the $50 bucks here or there either. I have no problem with that. Any way, no big deal! Hopefully people will have less heart attacks with the money I sent them.

You guys seem a little paranoid is all. Orgs that take donations should not expect much money from people that are blind. JMO

I am still a CGF supporter and am rooting for you guys and your mission. What ever that may be at this time.



I see, you like to bash CGF, all while proclaiming that you're not out to bash CGF, yet:

· You post inflammatorily phrased questions, and when the answers do not contain adequate specificity you increase the level of your insinuation of wrong doing.

· You insult the volunteers that answer your questions.

· Had the ability and access to both Gene and Brandon via telephone or e-mail, in which you could have asked any questions.

· Continued to post inflammatorily phrased questions while you were aware that Gene was ill and that Brandon was unable to answer due to a temporary ban.

· Yet you proclaim that you have no agenda.

Sounds like a rational thought process to me…. Yep, no agenda here...

:confused: :confused:

taperxz
01-08-2013, 8:40 AM
I see, you like to bash CGF, all while proclaiming that you're not out to bash CGF, yet:

· You post inflammatorily phrased questions, and when the answers do not contain adequate specificity you increase the level of your insinuation of wrong doing.

Entirely your perception. Thats your problem.


· You insult the volunteers that answer your questions.

Show me an insulting remark in regard to volunteerism.

· Had the ability and access to both Gene and Brandon via telephone or e-mail, in which you could have asked any questions.

I did talk to Brandon. I have no access to Gene. Brandon could have called me if he so desired.

· Continued to post inflammatorily phrased questions while you were aware that Gene was ill and that Brandon was unable to answer due to a temporary ban.

Show me inflammatory. Nor have i ever had updates on Genes health ??? WTF???

· Yet you proclaim that you have no agenda.

I stated my agenda.

Sounds like a rational thought process to me…. Yep, no agenda here...

I'm not here to impress you or anyone else in regards to my thought process. Are you an expert in thought process analysis via the internet?

:confused: :confused:

Everyone has an opinion, Opinions are like .... and they all stink

taperxz
01-08-2013, 8:51 AM
Isn't it funny how pretty much Howardw and Getto philosopher are the ones stoking this fire.

Looks like some information was posted last night which is great for everyone to look at and make educated decisions.

If you re read my OP this is some of the information i wanted and some direction on the future of CGF. If someone would have posted what i asked for this thread would have been long gone 4 pages ago.

WAS IT REALLY THAT HARD?

Howardw, Whats your agenda? Attempting to discredit a supporter for for asking questions? Protecting something that you know nothing about? Not to mention the dis credit you direct at me is directed at an anonymous poster known as TAPERXZ. BIG DEAL!

IPSICK
01-08-2013, 9:19 AM
...I was not insinuating that CGF would sell information! I was talking about FPC. This has been a practice of Alan Gottlieb...

Is this true about Gottlieb? Does anyone have references for this claim? I am considering becoming a life member of SAF but not if the above is true. If true, the money shall go elsewhere in the fight for the 2nd Am.

Crom
01-08-2013, 9:41 AM
Is this true about Gottlieb? Does anyone have references for this claim? I am considering becoming a life member of SAF but not if the above is true. If true, the money shall go elsewhere in the fight for the 2nd Am.

No. That's not been my experience.

I've been a proud SAF member and supporter for almost three years now. I receive email alerts from SAF, which is fine. And even though I'm not a member to my knowledge, and have never signed up on any list that I know of, I occasionally receive email alerts from "Citizens Committee for the Right to Keep and Bear Arms" (ccalerts <CCAlerts@liberty.seanet.com>.)

I know that Alan is an integral part of both organizations and I trust him and his staff and love the excellent work they do. Although I'm not to sure about that Brandon guy. :hide: ;) :D

taperxz
01-08-2013, 10:09 AM
I'm a little concerned about CGF becoming an "SAF affiliate" (or that it has always been one). SAF is of course run by Alan Gotlieb, not exactly the most savoury of characters (See items like this: http://www.seattleweekly.com/2009-11-11/news/cover-story-barack-load/, or just google him).

I'm glad he has finally managed to be involved in some legal victories, after decades of failure it seems like one of his horses finally came in. But despite having hitched himself to a string of ultimately successful lawsuits, I'm not sure I'd trust him with my email address, let alone my credit card number. He has been known to use his mailing lists for deceptive marketing practices (here is one not too satisfied customer: http://www.thefirearmsforum.com/showthread.php?t=15940) and has been accused of selling the lists to third parties, making a tidy sum for himself in the process.

In fact all of his non-profits appear to spend most, if not all, funds raised with for-profit firms he also owns.

So I think you can understand the concern when it appears SAF has swallowed CGF, putting people like Brandon Combs on the payroll and taking over CGF's financial (and other?) functions. SAF celebrated attorney Alan Gura also now seems to be running all of CGF's legal actions. Isn't he already paid by SAF? What is the financial arrangement there exactly? Any way you cut it this seems like a sad day for CGF. If the current CGF leadership is unable or unwilling to handle the organizational responsibilities without turning to a convicted felon like Gottlieb, then maybe it is time for some new leadership.

Information in link above

newbee1111
01-08-2013, 1:26 PM
So I get that when I want my donations spent on suing every MFer in the room I send them to CGF and SAF. Who do I send my money to for lobbying and miscellaneous arm twisting in Sacramento? The news is full of terrible ideas being formed in our legislature and it would be great if at least some of them could be side-tracked in committee. I just got into this hobby and I'd really rather not have my revolvers classified as assault weapons by the state.

Kestryll
01-08-2013, 2:01 PM
Who do I send my money to for lobbying and miscellaneous arm twisting in Sacramento?

The two groups that have full time 2A lobbyists in Sacramento are the NRA and the CRPA.

California is the only State in the Union that the NRA maintains a full time lobbyist, Ed Worley. Ed works hand in hand with the CRPA's full time lobbyist, Tom Pederson.
From everything I've seen and heard Ed and Tom are both well known and well liked in Sacramento.

Librarian
01-08-2013, 6:06 PM
Member 'real life' identities are theirs to manage and share if they care to.

We've had discussions of that, generally, in other threads. Those who maintain a member name are free to do only that, and discussions of real names are off topic until and unless a member chooses for himself to post on the topic.

ETA.

I was going to ignore Howard, since it was addressed to me.

Both of you, KNOCK IT OFF.

GettoPhilosopher
01-09-2013, 9:25 PM
Isn't it funny how pretty much Howardw and Getto philosopher are the ones stoking this fire.

Looks like some information was posted last night which is great for everyone to look at and make educated decisions.

If you re read my OP this is some of the information i wanted and some direction on the future of CGF. If someone would have posted what i asked for this thread would have been long gone 4 pages ago.

WAS IT REALLY THAT HARD?

Howardw, Whats your agenda? Attempting to discredit a supporter for for asking questions? Protecting something that you know nothing about? Not to mention the dis credit you direct at me is directed at an anonymous poster known as TAPERXZ. BIG DEAL!



Wait, my 5 posts (in your 5 page thread) make me Stoker of Fires? Or is it because people keep pointing out glaring inaccuracies in your statements? ("First time I've heard Brandon's paid!" wait, here's the thread a month ago where it was mentioned to you.... "You have nothing to contribute here!!!"; "I have no access to Gene!" actually, you were given his contact info a few weeks back and encouraged to talk to him.... "I HAVE NO ACCESS TO GENE!"; etc)

I am pretty amused by this though. Can I make a "Getto, Stoker of Fires" hat? :D

taperxz
01-09-2013, 9:31 PM
Wait, my 5 posts (in your 5 page thread) make me Stoker of Fires? Or is it because people keep pointing out glaring inaccuracies in your statements? ("First time I've heard Brandon's paid!" wait, here's the thread a month ago where it was mentioned to you.... "You have nothing to contribute here!!!"; "I have no access to Gene!" actually, you were given his contact info a few weeks back and encouraged to talk to him.... "I HAVE NO ACCESS TO GENE!"; etc)

I am pretty amused by this though. Can I make a "Getto, Stoker of Fires" hat? :D

Read the OP, quit protecting what you dont know or can't answer. I have no access to Gene Hoffman and never have. You really are making a whole lot of nothing here. Again, can you answer the questions in the OP? I think not.

My $5000 donation went to "hearts" Mostly because of people like you!

Not Brandon, Gene or any of the CGF board.

taperxz
01-09-2013, 9:47 PM
Ghetto, i will leave you with this, If you are truly in charge of volunteers, you should be removed.

When you have a donation based Org. its not economically sound to bash potential donors regardless of your opinion of them. In fact, if i were in charge i would pay you to leave and not come back so you could do no more damage.

Do you really think other potential donors are not reading this? They are! I have PM's, people agreeing with me in this thread as well as e mails.

You really need to get a grip on what you are saying and doing IMHO.

GettoPhilosopher
01-09-2013, 10:39 PM
You really need to get a grip on what you are saying and doing IMHO.

Currently I'm spewing Coca-Cola all over my keyboard. :rofl:

IBTL

Well you're certainly done with being rude, demeaning and insulting to people for a few days.

What happened to this?

taperxz
01-09-2013, 10:46 PM
Currently I'm spewing Coca-Cola all over my keyboard. :rofl:

IBTL



What happened to this?

I had nothing to do with that. That was KES. I don't even know him.

taperxz
01-09-2013, 10:50 PM
Currently I'm spewing Coca-Cola all over my keyboard. :rofl:

IBTL



What happened to this?

BTW You can laugh all you want. You are the main organizer for volunteers for CGF. Don't you see how your quotes, posts and demeaning attitudes affect others and can change how and what they want to contribute financially?

You should be replaced. Especially if you can't see what you personally are doing to the Org. on a public forum. Seriously.

wildhawker
01-09-2013, 11:22 PM
We have the best team of volunteers in California gun rights and I could not be more proud of them. I can promise you that much larger organizations produce much less gun rights bottom line, and one massive factor in that is our dedicated volunteers (and our dedicated supporters). The future is looking very bright for CGF and our continuing efforts to advance the Second Amendment, and in spite of the apparent perceptions of a small few on Calguns.net, we have every reason to be confident in who we are and what we do for our cause.

As always, we encourage questions to be submitted to us directly at info@calgunsfoundation.org or info@firearmspolicy.org since we can't afford to park valuable resources on CGN.

-Brandon

taperxz
01-10-2013, 8:11 AM
We have the best team of volunteers in California gun rights and I could not be more proud of them. I can promise you that much larger organizations produce much less gun rights bottom line, and one massive factor in that is our dedicated volunteers (and our dedicated supporters). The future is looking very bright for CGF and our continuing efforts to advance the Second Amendment, and in spite of the apparent perceptions of a small few on Calguns.net, we have every reason to be confident in who we are and what we do for our cause.

As always, we encourage questions to be submitted to us directly at info@calgunsfoundation.org or info@firearmspolicy.org since we can't afford to park valuable resources on CGN.

-Brandon

I don't agree, $120,000 in donations isn't all that impressive for FY2011 with $150,000 in expenditures. (public information I obtained)

Everyone needs to keep in mind that the sunshine initiative was formed at the end of 2010 so much of the funds donated came to cgf in 2011 with the county banners.

I don't think that it is a "small few" here on CGN either. do the math How many users on CGN divided by your gross donations. Even if you cut the CGN population by 1/3 it will only get you about $3.50 in donations per person.



Amazon was a very smart move, probably a move that needed to be made.

Since i have your attention, Will or does FPC sell donor/ user information such as e mails, addresses, or phone numbers to third parties? (NOT CGF)

Why do you guys insist on bumping a thread that you want to go away?

Gray Peterson
01-10-2013, 8:18 AM
Why do you guys insist on bumping a thread that you want to go away?


Because you bumped it first?

Californio
01-10-2013, 9:22 AM
All this for $10.00 donation:confused:

Tincon
01-10-2013, 9:52 AM
We don't rent or sell the CGF donor list. We've sent some joint announcements to it via email which you've seen if you're on it. Nice little opt out option in every one.

The claim that CGF is not selling lists is not very comforting when FPC and other Gottlieb controlled corporations will have access to the lists and are known for making a profit by selling them.


What agreement, if any, does CGF have in place with Gottlieb and the various for-profit and non-profit entities he controls to protect the privacy of the personal information of CGF contributors?



That is good to hear at least, so you can confirm that no one affiliated with CGF, besides Brandon Combs, is getting paid at in any way by any of Gottlieb's for-profit or "non-profit" entities?

:gene:

wildhawker
01-10-2013, 9:55 AM
I don't agree, $120,000 in donations isn't all that impressive for FY2011 with $150,000 in expenditures. (public information I obtained)

The numbers of $120k/(150k) were simply the way some end of FY rev/costs fell on the calendar. If you can be objective for a moment, consider this: http://calffl.org/archive/gunorg990s/990_analysis.pdf. Considering all that we do, our costs are awfully low.

Everyone needs to keep in mind that the sunshine initiative was formed at the end of 2010 so much of the funds donated came to cgf in 2011 with the county banners.

Our FY up through Jan 1, 2013 was not Jan-Dec. But that being what it is, it's hard to grasp the point you're trying to make here.

I don't think that it is a "small few" here on CGN either. do the math How many users on CGN divided by your gross donations. Even if you cut the CGN population by 1/3 it will only get you about $3.50 in donations per person.

This is getting humorous. CGN - a vBulletin, free signup, no investment we forum - member numbers are not metric for any serious analysis.

Amazon was a very smart move, probably a move that needed to be made.

The http://Shop42A.com program has been highly successful - and becoming even moreso - thanks to our awesome supporters (and growing numbers of them).

Since i have your attention, Will or does FPC sell donor/ user information such as e mails, addresses, or phone numbers to third parties? (NOT CGF)

1. FPC is not a separate organization. 2. FPC does not offer or sell data to third parties.

Why do you guys insist on bumping a thread that you want to go away?

When are you going to treat volunteers actually doing the hard work of fighting for your gun rights with respect?

-Brandon

taperxz
01-10-2013, 11:36 AM
The numbers of $120k/(150k) were simply the way some end of FY rev/costs fell on the calendar. If you can be objective for a moment, consider this: http://calffl.org/archive/gunorg990s/990_analysis.pdf. Considering all that we do, our costs are awfully low.



Our FY up through Jan 1, 2013 was not Jan-Dec. But that being what it is, it's hard to grasp the point you're trying to make here.



This is getting humorous. CGN - a vBulletin, free signup, no investment we forum - member numbers are not metric for any serious analysis.



The http://Shop42A.com program has been highly successful - and becoming even moreso - thanks to our awesome supporters (and growing numbers of them).



1. FPC is not a separate organization. 2. FPC does not offer or sell data to third parties.



When are you going to treat volunteers actually doing the hard work of fighting for your gun rights with respect?

-Brandon

Thanks for the reply Brandon.

I take you at your word.

As for respecting volunteers, I noted in his thread about their positive contributions and effectiveness. Their contribution to this thread though have only been attacking in nature, so I responded as noted.

All I ever wanted were the questions in my OP answered. If possible or even a "we can't or won't answer your questions"

taperxz
01-10-2013, 4:33 PM
After picking through the inter-webs i noticed some interesting tid bits about the organizations i listed above.

If someone can clarify this it would be appreciated!

So, CGF is a group fighting for CA rights and is a group that was started in San Carlos CA.

It appears they are now in Madera CA. Now, with that being said, I would assume that Brandon (Executive Director of CGF also employed by SAF has done this for a reason. (i have no idea why) Or is it something Gene wanted? He too is on the board for SAF.


I am also aware that CAL-FFL is owned and run by Brandon. Interestingly though i just saw that CCRKBA is the operation collecting the funds for the other organizations. CCRKBA is owned by Alan Gottlieb!!

Why are all these organizations needed if the end result could be that Alan Gottlieb is the end recipient of all the FPC donations?

Remember, Alan is in charge of SAF!

Is CGF and all our grass roots org's merging with SAF?

I would really like to know after all these years of supporting our local orgs and what the synopsis is for the future. It really does appear that CGF, CAL-FFL, are joining up with SAF and CCRKBA. Even the model for FPC eludes to becoming a network for nationwide 2A activism. (I think thats great!)

However, what about the local laws and lawsuits that are pending, been filed, or not finished?

I still see very little reporting on getting local sheriffs to issue in many counties or keeping us up to date here (dedicated county threads) on what they are working on like they used to.

Do we now have to pay $15 per org on FPC in order to find out when i am already a contributor to the organizations?

I am confused and concerned that our local gun org is either going away (SAF merge) or just not posting relevant information here on this site any more.



Thanks for your answers.

I would also like to make it clear that i am not bashing or insinuating anything wrong here. (some may take it that way) I would simply like to see some clarity on the situation. Perhaps others may also.

Before i donate to organizations for anything, i like to know where my money goes and what its being used for. Thats really it.

First and second posts of mine for clarity. This is all i wanted to know and in my second post... well look what happened.