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Bolt_Action
01-02-2013, 12:59 AM
I have some questions about CA's "unsafe handgun laws", specifically relating to penal code section 32000. As I'm sure most people on this forum know, section 32000 makes it illegal to keep for sale, offer or expose for sale, give, or lend any "unsafe handgun".

Supposedly face-to-face PPT's are exempt, but does anyone have a cite for this exemption? I'm sure it's out there, but I couldn't find it. Also, if PPT's are exempt, then why does the law specifically make it illegal to "offer or expose for sale" any unsafe handgun? Doesn't someone need to offer the handgun for sale before it can be sold via PPT?

Finally, if it is illegal to "give or lend" any unsafe handgun, does that mean I cannot allow someone to borrow any pistol I own that is not on the safety roster? Even though I could sell it to them face to face? Does it also mean I cannot allow someone to shoot my non-rostered handgun at a match or at the range? Or does a "loan" legally only happen if I allow someone to take something and use it away from my person? In other words, if I allow you to heat something in my microwave, I haven't "loaned" it to you, but if you take it out of my house and return it tomorrow, then I have loaned it to you? Is this correct?

mrdd
01-02-2013, 4:38 AM
I have some questions about CA's "unsafe handgun laws", specifically relating to penal code section 32000. As I'm sure most people on this forum know, section 32000 makes it illegal to keep for sale, offer or expose for sale, give, or lend any "unsafe handgun".

Supposedly face-to-face PPT's are exempt, but does anyone have a cite for this exemption? I'm sure it's out there, but I couldn't find it. Also, if PPT's are exempt, then why does the law specifically make it illegal to "offer or expose for sale" any unsafe handgun? Doesn't someone need to offer the handgun for sale before it can be sold via PPT?

PC 32110. Article 4 (commencing with Section 31900) and Article 5 (commencing with Section 32000) shall not apply to any of the following:
(a) The sale, loan, or transfer of any firearm pursuant to Chapter 5 (commencing with Section 28050) of Division 6 in order to comply with Section 27545.

Section 27545 is the requirement for a transfer between most persons to use an FFL (PPT). Section 28050 sets down the procedure for processing a PPT.

Don't sweat the "offer or expose for sale" part. If it is legal to sell it, it is legal to offer or expose it for sale.

Finally, if it is illegal to "give or lend" any unsafe handgun, does that mean I cannot allow someone to borrow any pistol I own that is not on the safety roster? Even though I could sell it to them face to face? Does it also mean I cannot allow someone to shoot my non-rostered handgun at a match or at the range? Or does a "loan" legally only happen if I allow someone to take something and use it away from my person? In other words, if I allow you to heat something in my microwave, I haven't "loaned" it to you, but if you take it out of my house and return it tomorrow, then I have loaned it to you? Is this correct?

PC 32110. Article 4 (commencing with Section 31900) and Article 5 (commencing with Section 32000) shall not apply to any of the following:
(b) The sale, loan, or transfer of any firearm that is exempt from the provisions of Section 27545 pursuant to any applicable exemption contained in Article 2 (commencing with Section 27600) or Article 6 (commencing with Section 27850) of Chapter 4 of Division 6, if the sale, loan, or transfer complies with the requirements of that applicable exemption to Section 27545.

There are two applicable sections contained in Article 6 of Chapter 4 of Division 6:

PC 27880. Section 27545 does not apply to the loan of a firearm between persons who are personally known to each other, if all of the following requirements are satisfied:
(a) The loan is infrequent, as defined in Section 16730.

(b) The loan is for any lawful purpose.

(c) The loan does not exceed 30 days in duration.

(d) If the firearm is a handgun, the individual being loaned the handgun shall have a valid handgun safety certificate.

PC 27885. Section 27545 does not apply to the loan of a firearm if all of the following conditions exist:
(a) The person loaning the firearm is at all times within the presence of the person being loaned the firearm.

(b) The loan is for a lawful purpose.

(c) The loan does not exceed three days in duration.

(d) The individual receiving the firearm is not prohibited by state or federal law from possessing, receiving, owning, or purchasing a firearm.

(e) The person loaning the firearm is 18 years of age or older.

(f) The person being loaned the firearm is 18 years of age or older.

Librarian
01-02-2013, 10:57 AM
Nicely done, mrdd.

And all that is available at the wiki,
http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/Buying_and_selling_firearms_in_California

http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/The_Safe_Handgun_List

Bolt_Action
01-02-2013, 11:06 AM
PC 32110. Article 4 (commencing with Section 31900) and Article 5 (commencing with Section 32000) shall not apply to any of the following:
(a) The sale, loan, or transfer of any firearm pursuant to Chapter 5 (commencing with Section 28050) of Division 6 in order to comply with Section 27545.

Section 27545 is the requirement for a transfer between most persons to use an FFL (PPT). Section 28050 sets down the procedure for processing a PPT.

Don't sweat the "offer or expose for sale" part. If it is legal to sell it, it is legal to offer or expose it for sale.



PC 32110. Article 4 (commencing with Section 31900) and Article 5 (commencing with Section 32000) shall not apply to any of the following:
(b) The sale, loan, or transfer of any firearm that is exempt from the provisions of Section 27545 pursuant to any applicable exemption contained in Article 2 (commencing with Section 27600) or Article 6 (commencing with Section 27850) of Chapter 4 of Division 6, if the sale, loan, or transfer complies with the requirements of that applicable exemption to Section 27545.

There are two applicable sections contained in Article 6 of Chapter 4 of Division 6:

PC 27880. Section 27545 does not apply to the loan of a firearm between persons who are personally known to each other, if all of the following requirements are satisfied:
(a) The loan is infrequent, as defined in Section 16730.

(b) The loan is for any lawful purpose.

(c) The loan does not exceed 30 days in duration.

(d) If the firearm is a handgun, the individual being loaned the handgun shall have a valid handgun safety certificate.

PC 27885. Section 27545 does not apply to the loan of a firearm if all of the following conditions exist:
(a) The person loaning the firearm is at all times within the presence of the person being loaned the firearm.

(b) The loan is for a lawful purpose.

(c) The loan does not exceed three days in duration.

(d) The individual receiving the firearm is not prohibited by state or federal law from possessing, receiving, owning, or purchasing a firearm.

(e) The person loaning the firearm is 18 years of age or older.

(f) The person being loaned the firearm is 18 years of age or older.

Thanks for this, just what I was looking for. So basically what you're telling me is that Sec. 32000 makes the loan of any unsafe handgun illegal, but sec. 32110 then says that all loans (which are otherwise lawful) are exempt? What was the point of making the loans of unsafe handguns illegal if they later state that all loans are essentially exempt? I know that our legislature enjoys writing nonsensical laws, but this seems to take it to a whole new level.

bwiese
01-02-2013, 11:46 AM
Thanks for this, just what I was looking for. So basically what you're telling me is that Sec. 32000 makes the loan of any unsafe handgun illegal, but sec. 32110 then says that all loans (which are otherwise lawful) are exempt? What was the point of making the loans of unsafe handguns illegal if they later state that all loans are essentially exempt? I know that our legislature enjoys writing nonsensical laws, but this seems to take it to a whole new level.


Many CA gun laws are structured as bans, with various exemptions, rather than just a variety of subentities being banned. Easier to write laws that way.

Bolt_Action
01-02-2013, 11:55 AM
Many CA gun laws are structured as bans, with various exemptions, rather than just a variety of subentities being banned. Easier to write laws that way.

Yeah I've seen that many of their past bans. I guess in this case what I'm wondering is why they would outlaw a certain activity (loaning/selling an "unsafe" handgun) and then exempt *everyone*.

Put another way, in what theoretical scenario could someone be prosecuted for violating the prohibition against loaning and unsafe handgun? If no one can be prosecuted for loaning an unsafe handgun (unless they violated some other law which already existed), what was the point of prohibiting it in the first place?

bwiese
01-02-2013, 11:58 AM
Yeah I've seen that many of their past bans. I guess in this case what I'm wondering is why they would outlaw a certain activity (loaning/selling an "unsafe" handgun) and then exempt *everyone*.

Put another way, in what theoretical scenario could someone be prosecuted for violating the prohibition against loaning and unsafe handgun? If no one can be prosecuted for loaning an unsafe handgun (unless they violated some other law which already existed), what was the point of prohibiting it in the first place?


You're assuming that there is sanity in making such laws and that there is a long period of consideration before these laws are nailed up.

These laws are updated at the last minute in legilsative sessions to try to garner passage or legal objections in review.

paul0660
01-02-2013, 11:59 AM
in what theoretical scenario could someone be prosecuted for violating the prohibition against loaning and unsafe handgun

Mrdd's post includes a half dozen ways to loan illegally.

mrdd
01-02-2013, 12:03 PM
Yeah I've seen that many of their past bans. I guess in this case what I'm wondering is why they would outlaw a certain activity (loaning/selling an "unsafe" handgun) and then exempt *everyone*.

Put another way, in what theoretical scenario could someone be prosecuted for violating the prohibition against loaning and unsafe handgun? If no one can be prosecuted for loaning an unsafe handgun (unless they violated some other law which already existed), what was the point of prohibiting it in the first place?

The loan exemptions have a maximum duration, and in the 30 day case, it must also be infrequent, which means less than 6 times per calendar year.

Capt.Dunsel
01-02-2013, 12:22 PM
(d) If the firearm is a handgun, the individual being loaned the handgun shall have a valid handgun safety certificate.

Always been curious about this one , I have seen people rent guns at a range and they have never asked to see someones HSC. :confused:
Anyone else notice this happening?

Bolt_Action
01-02-2013, 12:44 PM
Mrdd's post includes a half dozen ways to loan illegally.

Yes but all those loan examples were illegal *before* this law was passed, and continue to be illegal irrespective of PC 32000. What I'm asking is what type of loan, involving an "unsafe handgun", became illegal as a result of the ban on the loan of unsafe handguns? I can't think of a single example, since all loans that are otherwise legal are exempted from the ban. In other words, the provision of the law prohibiting the loan of unsafe handguns cannot be applied to anyone under any circumstances, unless they break another law which already existed prior to the enactment of PC 32000. :confused:

Bolt_Action
01-02-2013, 12:55 PM
You're assuming that there is sanity in making such laws and that there is a long period of consideration before these laws are nailed up.

These laws are updated at the last minute in legilsative sessions to try to garner passage or legal objections in review.

Yes... I've made this argument to people before. Basically what you're saying is that there are often provisions passed in laws that make no sense, or were made by mistake. This could have many implications. For example, just because a part of the law specifically authorizes an activity, e.g. the exemption for the "purchase" of large capacity magazines by entities that operate an armored car business, doesn't mean such authorization is actually required. In fact, the purchase of large capacity magazines is not controlled in CA, but they decided to permit it anyway, even though it was never illegal. So this could be extended to their shaky definitions legalizing all sorts of exempt activities in various situations, when in fact those exemptions were never needed in the first place. Or put another way, just because the state legalizes a certain activity, doesn't at all mean that the activity would have otherwise been illegal.

Librarian
01-02-2013, 9:59 PM
(d) If the firearm is a handgun, the individual being loaned the handgun shall have a valid handgun safety certificate.

Always been curious about this one , I have seen people rent guns at a range and they have never asked to see someones HSC. :confused:
Anyone else notice this happening?

Don't need it unless the loan is for more than 3 days.

PC 31750 (http://law.onecle.com/california/penal/31750.html) California Penal Code Section 31750

Subdivision (a) of Section 31615 (http://law.onecle.com/california/penal/31615.html) does not apply to the loan
of a firearm if all of the following conditions exist:
(a) The person loaning the firearm is at all times within the
presence of the person being loaned the firearm.
(b) The loan is for a lawful purpose.
(c) The loan does not exceed three days in duration.
(d) The individual receiving the firearm is not prohibited by
state or federal law from possessing, receiving, owning, or
purchasing a firearm.
(e) The person loaning the firearm is 18 years of age or older.
(f) The person being loaned the firearm is 18 years of age or
older.
and, for gun ranges, PC 31765 (http://law.onecle.com/california/penal/31765.html) Subdivision (a) of Section 31615 does not apply to the loan
of a firearm to a person 18 years of age or older for the purposes of
shooting at targets if the loan occurs on the premises of a target
facility that holds a business or regulatory license or on the
premises of any club or organization organized for the purposes of
practicing shooting at targets upon established ranges, whether
public or private, if the firearm is at all times kept within the
premises of the target range or on the premises of the club or
organization.