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View Full Version : So? Is a cooling of period so bad?


Nxd9ar15xcrL
01-01-2013, 9:05 AM
Saw this story:

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/pastors-wife-buys-gun-from-tx-gun-shop-and-shoots-herself-dead-in-the-parking-lot/

In short, a Texas pastor's wife buys a handgun and then commits suicide with it in the parking lot.

I was talking to a guy the other day and we were both fomenting the 10 day wait. Our conclusion was that for the first gun... ...ok. But what is the use after you already have your first? None!

By all means I am not for more gun laws (and california already has a 10 day jail time), but I can see a use for it... but maybe 2 - 3 days?

(Sorry if this is a dup, but I searched around for it without finding it)

guns4life
01-01-2013, 9:12 AM
No wait time at the local range...it's better they off themselves in private if they're hell-bent on going out that is.

Steve1968LS2
01-01-2013, 9:17 AM
The cooling off period is rather stupid if you already own firearms.. Why do I need to wait 10 days for my 30th gun?

And there are LOTS of ways to kill yourself, or kill others, than guns.. so I don't think the cooling-off deal is going to stop much if anything.

donw
01-01-2013, 9:17 AM
i, personally, don't have a beef with the current 10 day waiting period.

i believe it could be shortened some but i would not agree with a longer one.

OGKRacing
01-01-2013, 9:18 AM
That sounds like a good idea. I don't see the need for it either. 3 day waiting period would be nice.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2

DrewN
01-01-2013, 9:22 AM
if you're willing to off yourself in a public parking lot, no waiting period will save you. And you're right, there is absolutely no logical reason that there should be a waiting period for existing firearms owners. Political theater with the added bonus of adding another layer of bureaucratic inconv
enience to discourage gun purchasing.

nothinghere2c
01-01-2013, 9:23 AM
its a minor inconvenience really. i understand it for the first firearm, but the ones after that it just gets annoying.

Baconator
01-01-2013, 9:23 AM
If someone wants to kill themselves or others they will find a way.

Sent from Obama's Mind

sholling
01-01-2013, 9:24 AM
So what you're saying is that a woman living in fear of an abusive or murderous ex should just go ahead and take a few more beating or just die while waiting out her 10 days? And the small business owner watching neighbor business burn during riots should wait 10 days? And the father that can't afford to keep a gun collection should remain helpless to protect his family for the 1st 10 days of the next riots or in the face of gang threats? There is no moral justification for making any US citizen wait 10 days to enjoy their rights.

So how about a cooling off period requiring you (and "journalists") to sit out a 10 day cooling off period between having a thought and putting voice to it? You know, to give time to think it through and change your mind. :rolleyes:

Fastattack
01-01-2013, 9:24 AM
Lets turn the tables ... what if she instead were in fear of her life and needed to protect herself? What if she needed a gun NOW? There are always two sides to a story.

ElDub1950
01-01-2013, 9:26 AM
I be ok with the wait period for the first handgun and a wait for the first long gun.

But there's no justifiable reason after the first of each.

bill_k_lopez
01-01-2013, 9:27 AM
Some of you like to cave and give up so easily...

DuknBucks
01-01-2013, 9:28 AM
I picked up my new handgun...while wearing my LTC gun.

I had a to laugh at the clerk as she locked up my new gun before handing it to me. she says i know this is silly but its the rules :) she knows i have a carry permit.......there are a lot of stupid gun laws that dont make sense.

I have more than a few handguns why the heck would i go buy another one to commit some sort of crime.......just seems stupid that CCW holders and/or multi-gun owners cant be exempt from the waiting period

mt4design
01-01-2013, 9:29 AM
She wanted to end her life. There are any number of other ways to do so and no waiting period is necessary.

This kind of goes directly to the question of mental health.

But, if she was so inclined, there is no waiting period that would keep her from using a length of rope or a belt to hang herself or driving her car off a cliff or sitting in a closed garage with the engine on or slashing her wrists with a razor blade.

Sometimes, stuff just happens.

EM2
01-01-2013, 9:29 AM
So? Is a cooling of period so bad?
Saw this story:

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/pastors-wife-buys-gun-from-tx-gun-shop-and-shoots-herself-dead-in-the-parking-lot/

In short, a Texas pastor's wife buys a handgun and then commits suicide with it in the parking lot.

I was talking to a guy the other day and we were both fomenting the 10 day wait. Our conclusion was that for the first gun... ...ok. But what is the use after you already have your first? None!

By all means I am not for more gun laws (and california already has a 10 day jail time), but I can see a use for it... but maybe 2 - 3 days?

(Sorry if this is a dup, but I searched around for it without finding it)




YES it is.

Waiting periods do nothing to stem suicides as the person will always find another way. And if they really want to use a firearm to end their life all they need to do is what this guy did.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=93483
Man kills himself in Fresno sporting goods store
He apparently hid, shot himself after Herb Bauer store closed, police say.




All the waiting periods do is to continue the false perception that firearms are the problem instead of placing the focus where it belongs, on mental health.

Come on guys, get with it and STOP trying to find ways to compromise with those that would strip us of one of our most important rights.

billmaykafer
01-01-2013, 9:31 AM
waiting period used to be 15 days.

EM2
01-01-2013, 9:33 AM
So what you're saying is that a woman living in fear of an abusive or murderous ex should just go ahead and take a few more beating or just die while waiting out her 10 days? And the small business owner watching neighbor business burn during riots should wait 10 days? And the father that can't afford to keep a gun collection should remain helpless to protect his family for the 1st 10 days of the next riots or in the face of gang threats? There is no moral justification for making any US citizen wait 10 days to enjoy their rights.

So how about a cooling off period requiring you (and "journalists") to sit out a 10 day cooling off period between having a thought and putting voice to it? You know, to give time to think it through and change your mind. :rolleyes:


^^^Another great point.^^^
Waiting periods are harmful to victims of abuse.

12voltguy
01-01-2013, 9:34 AM
Saw this story:

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/pastors-wife-buys-gun-from-tx-gun-shop-and-shoots-herself-dead-in-the-parking-lot/

In short, a Texas pastor's wife buys a handgun and then commits suicide with it in the parking lot.

I was talking to a guy the other day and we were both fomenting the 10 day wait. Our conclusion was that for the first gun... ...ok. But what is the use after you already have your first? None!

By all means I am not for more gun laws (and california already has a 10 day jail time), but I can see a use for it... but maybe 2 - 3 days?

(Sorry if this is a dup, but I searched around for it without finding it)

she can't buy a gun so maybe vshe hits another driver head on, on the freeway:facepalm:

Intimid8tor
01-01-2013, 9:39 AM
You have several questions you have to answer.

First, are waiting period so bad. Yes they are. They serve to restrict lawful gun owners from buying firearms.

Second, should someone be allowed to end their life. Yes they should. It's their life. Do I agree with suicide? No, I don't. But who are we to decide what is right for someone else.

Third, how can you honestly say that it is ok to restrict the rights of everyone because of someone. This is the same thing that happens with every other gun rights infringement. It would have saved this person. Let's take it one step further. Sandy Hook. Let's hypothetically say a ban would have stopped that. It would also allow violent crime to increase substantially as people have no way to protect themselves. Is my wife's life, worth less than those children's? or any victim of a mass shooting? If it is, then what's the ratio? 10 adults to 1 kid. i.e. if a law saves 1 kid it is worth allowing 10 adults to be the victim of violent crime.

In the end, we can't protect everyone from themselves and from everyone else. If someone wants to commit suicide and is willing to buy a gun to do it, nothing is going to stop them. Freedom is not free and it is not without a cost. Some see that cost as too high. They should move to another country (not directed at anyone in particular) so they feel safer with less freedom.

huntercf
01-01-2013, 9:41 AM
Was there a major problem before? Nope, there were a few incidents but there will always be a few incidents. With over 6 billion people in the world you can't prevent every act of evil or desperation. The original 10 day wait was for your background to clear, with today's instant background checks it is no longer needed but anti's justify it as a cooling off period in order to make it more difficult to buy a gun.

Sosoomi
01-01-2013, 9:41 AM
So how about a cooling off period requiring you (and "journalists") to sit out a 10 day cooling off period between having a thought and putting voice to it? You know, to give time to think it through and change your mind. :rolleyes:

I like this! Probably make more of a difference than anything I have heard so far!

Horton Fenty
01-01-2013, 9:44 AM
Any waiting period is stupid. They serve no purpose.

DonFerrando
01-01-2013, 9:50 AM
I propose a 10 day waiting period on sleeping pills. And they ought to be registered. And you shouldn't buy more than 10 a month. Oh and no ordering online. And when you store them at home they need to be locked in a DOJ approved container.

guns4life
01-01-2013, 9:50 AM
What always bothers me is even though I'm an:

07 FFL
03 FFL
Have a COE
Am a "certified instructor" in regards to the HSC
A volunteer in the state military
An NRA small arms instructor
And all the background checks that come along with the above....


I still have to wait 10 days!




What's the deal with that?!?

curtisfong
01-01-2013, 9:51 AM
Prove that the waiting period has any efficacy whatsoever *and* doesn't unduly burden the right to owning a firearm for self defense (e.g. the example where it is needed immediately), and i'd agree. Until then, cram it where the sun don't shine, OP.

Also, I find your use of a *single* anecdote to support your position laughable.

spetsnaz
01-01-2013, 9:55 AM
na. im tired of the 10 day wait. it doesn't do as much as we want to believe, if you want to kill your self you probably would do it anywa

dieselpower
01-01-2013, 10:00 AM
Most people OD on drugs, few kill themselves with a gun...so the 10 day wait isnt justified by suicide. You are punishing the many for the acts of a few.

There was several people arrested last night for drunk driving, should we install a breath analyzer in your car now?

taperxz
01-01-2013, 10:20 AM
Most people OD on drugs, few kill themselves with a gun...so the 10 day wait isnt justified by suicide. You are punishing the many for the acts of a few.

There was several people arrested last night for drunk driving, should we install a breath analyzer in your car now?

They already have that for repeat offenders.:D

ArcherDog
01-01-2013, 10:23 AM
Why should I care if someone else is sick of living? As long as your method of exiting doesn't harm anyone else, I say go for it.

And no, I don't believe the waiting period had anything to do with her desire to kill herself, so there's no need to change it.

kcjr1125
01-01-2013, 10:24 AM
So what you're saying is that a woman living in fear of an abusive or murderous ex should just go ahead and take a few more beating or just die while waiting out her 10 days? And the small business owner watching neighbor business burn during riots should wait 10 days? And the father that can't afford to keep a gun collection should remain helpless to protect his family for the 1st 10 days of the next riots or in the face of gang threats? There is no moral justification for making any US citizen wait 10 days to enjoy their rights.

So how about a cooling off period requiring you (and "journalists") to sit out a 10 day cooling off period between having a thought and putting voice to it? You know, to give time to think it through and change your mind. :rolleyes:

well said.

taperxz
01-01-2013, 10:27 AM
Why should I care if someone else is sick of living? As long as your method of exiting doesn't harm anyone else, I say go for it.

And no, I don't believe the waiting period had anything to do with her desire to kill herself, so there's no need to change it.

You don't think blown out brains has an affect on first responders who have to show up to clean the mess? The fact that the house will be impossible to sell at market rate for the surviving family, or a rental where a landlord needs to rent it out even though everyone in town knows what happened there?

donw
01-01-2013, 10:34 AM
keep in mind: those who initiated the (10 day) waiting period know what's best for all...:confused::facepalm::rolleyes:

The Gleam
01-01-2013, 10:39 AM
Saw this story:

In short, a Texas pastor's wife buys a handgun and then commits suicide with it in the parking lot.


Surprising she took the time; it's so much more financially sound to jump off a 6 story building or to place a plastic bag over ones head, and the best part is that there is no paperwork to sign, and no waiting period at all.

I've never needed to "cool off" before or after buying a gun, nor does a person committed to killing them self ever really "cool off". There is a much deeper problem there and the thoughts reoccur. Severe depression deep enough to engage suicidal thoughts is not a temporary situation; it is a monster that creeps in and out. Or they have some such reason that seems so overwhelming, they are going to do it anyway, by any means. There are no waiting periods for slashing ones wrists, driving off a cliff, drug overdose, asphyxiation, and more.

But just like demented people that shoot up areas where it's a sure thing there will be no opposition, where they pursue gun-free zones to kill and/or kill themselves, I see this as no different. If it hadn't been firearms, they would have killed them self or people through other means (i.e., James Holmes rigged his apartment with home-made explosives, from common every day items, that had they been set off per his rigging or his own hand, it's is highly likely he would have killed up to 57 people in that apartment building).

But more importantly, it's disgusting that due to rare instances like this, hundreds of thousands to millions of others would have to "wait" to protect themselves in the most efficient manner possible.

Meplat
01-01-2013, 10:39 AM
Saw this story:

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/pastors-wife-buys-gun-from-tx-gun-shop-and-shoots-herself-dead-in-the-parking-lot/

In short, a Texas pastor's wife buys a handgun and then commits suicide with it in the parking lot.

I was talking to a guy the other day and we were both fomenting the 10 day wait. Our conclusion was that for the first gun... ...ok. But what is the use after you already have your first? None!

By all means I am not for more gun laws (and california already has a 10 day jail time), but I can see a use for it... but maybe 2 - 3 days?

(Sorry if this is a dup, but I searched around for it without finding it)


Personally I would not use a gun to commit suicide anyway. There are too many ways to mess it up. And stopping people who are in a killing rage is a myth and a farce. I am not saying that killing rage does not occur, but it only lasts a few seconds at most. It won’t last through the paperwork let alone 10 days.

speleogist
01-01-2013, 10:40 AM
Saw this story:

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/pastors-wife-buys-gun-from-tx-gun-shop-and-shoots-herself-dead-in-the-parking-lot/

In short, a Texas pastor's wife buys a handgun and then commits suicide with it in the parking lot.

I was talking to a guy the other day and we were both fomenting the 10 day wait. Our conclusion was that for the first gun... ...ok. But what is the use after you already have your first? None!

By all means I am not for more gun laws (and california already has a 10 day jail time), but I can see a use for it... but maybe 2 - 3 days?

(Sorry if this is a dup, but I searched around for it without finding it)


The ten day wait in this state is atrocious. I already have multiple guns and the state knows that, yet they treat me as if I don't. The waiting period is bad because it ignores the fact that current gun owners already have guns so the purpose of the wait is nullified, and because it forces me to drive to the gun shop twice and spend about 4 hours total to pick up a gun.

I'm tired of going through all of the same paperwork that I did when I bought the gun 10 days earlier.

ryry99
01-01-2013, 10:40 AM
So what you're saying is that a woman living in fear of an abusive or murderous ex should just go ahead and take a few more beating or just die while waiting out her 10 days? And the small business owner watching neighbor business burn during riots should wait 10 days? And the father that can't afford to keep a gun collection should remain helpless to protect his family for the 1st 10 days of the next riots or in the face of gang threats? There is no moral justification for making any US citizen wait 10 days to enjoy their rights.

So how about a cooling off period requiring you (and "journalists") to sit out a 10 day cooling off period between having a thought and putting voice to it? You know, to give time to think it through and change your mind. :rolleyes:

This ^^^

mrkubota
01-01-2013, 10:43 AM
You don't think blown out brains has an affect on first responders who have to show up to clean the mess? The fact that the house will be impossible to sell at market rate for the surviving family, or a rental where a landlord needs to rent it out even though everyone in town knows what happened there?

...of course it does. You suppose it's 'better' that they show up a few day/weeks later to mop up somebody that died in their sleep, hot tub, bathtub/shower, etc...
No matter how it happens, it'll be a mess.

Nodda Duma
01-01-2013, 10:47 AM
If I want to go to church, I don't have to wait 10 days.

If I want to drive somewhere, I don't have to wait 10 days.

If I want to write my Senator to voice my opinion on a political topic, I don't have to wait 10 days.

There's no 10-day waiting period to get together with friends.

The cops don't have a 10-day grace period to search my home before the warrant kicks in.

So why in God's name do you think it is ok to wait 10 days to exercise your fundamental right to keep and bear a firearm?

Why in God's name are you ok trading a fundamental right for the safety of someone hell-bent on offing themselves?

rugershooter
01-01-2013, 10:49 AM
When I worked in SAR, we saw people who committed suicide by jumping off bridges, cutting themselves with knives, and there was even a guy who committed suicide with a chainsaw. Shooting oneself isn't the only way to commit suicide.

The Gleam
01-01-2013, 10:49 AM
Saw this story:

By all means I am not for more gun laws (and california already has a 10 day jail time), but I can see a use for it... but maybe 2 - 3 days?



Also, in addition to my prior post; just how do you think 2 -3 days is any different than 10? Or 30 in the eyes of Anti-2nd Amendment types?

Neither would have been effective in ANY of the following recent mass/serial killings (where ALL active shooters either used firearms they obtained weeks to months prior, or stole them from someone else). Additionally, like I said above, someone with leanings toward suicide has more than enough outlets and a recurring condition, that believe it or not, they will simply wait the waiting period, still have the gun, and then it's on hand anyway the next time they have such feelings. A deeper problem of mental health of that individual is the issue, not the firearm, not the razor blade, not the plastic bag...

....nor the prescription drug (which nearly always takes a multiple procedures and steps to purchase). So should we have waiting periods for prescription painkillers? That'll go over real well.

Bobio
01-01-2013, 10:53 AM
You have thirty guns and can't wait ten days to get number thirty one? It's a minor inconvenience. If riots hit gun sales will be suspended anyway. Woman fears for her life from abusive husband. Call social services and get out.

The Gleam
01-01-2013, 10:58 AM
The fact that the house will be impossible to sell at market rate for the surviving family, or a rental where a landlord needs to rent it out even though everyone in town knows what happened there?

Hilarious; you have never shopped or bought a home have you, let alone dealt in the real-estate market much? Even if the story gets shared at all, which it usually isn't and I know of no required disclosure for such instances in CA, few people are squeamish in this current real-estate market if they are getting a deal; even knowing it's history, they are going to see it as a deal to be had. I wouldn't care.

And it's much more common and easier than you think; you get a clean-up/haz-mat restoration team in there, new paint, and nobody knows the difference; after the police and coroner go through it, it only takes a day. It's a much worse situation with a severe sewer back-up or broken hot-water under-sink hose, depending on how long wither were leaking; with mold issues, dry-rot, etc., than a simply single-point clean-up of brains and blood.

I'd take a home with a suicide, murder, or simply a rotting dead body that needed clean-up over a prolonged sewer back-up or water damage issue ANY day.

:boat:

Hogstir
01-01-2013, 10:58 AM
A waiting period makes no sense especially for those who already possess a firearm. When it was originally put into effect it was to allow time for a background check. With the automated NICS this is done in a matter of minutes and it has become simply a way to inconvenience the purchaser by the anti's. The 30 days between handgun purchases is also without any merit.

Faded
01-01-2013, 11:05 AM
So how about a cooling off period requiring you (and "journalists") to sit out a 10 day cooling off period between having a thought and putting voice to it? You know, to give time to think it through and change your mind. :rolleyes:

I love this and will use this argument. Really puts into perspective how silly it is.

The Gleam
01-01-2013, 11:08 AM
You have thirty guns and can't wait ten days to get number thirty one? It's a minor inconvenience. If riots hit gun sales will be suspended anyway. Woman fears for her life from abusive husband. Call social services and get out.


Give ONE instance where a waiting period has made a difference. Suicidal thoughts reoccur, so a "waiting period" is futile; and in nearly ALL mass spree-killer shooting, they owned their guns well prior to 30 days after purchase, and/or they stole/took guns from someone else.

It might make you "feel" good like something is being done, as is the superficial intent of most all gun laws written by the Anti-2nd Amendment crowd that have never owned (let alone shot) a gun in their life, but it's right up there with banning flash-hiders, banning bayonet lugs, banning collapsible stocks, or banning AR-15s versus a Mini-14, a Garand, or Remington Model 81 for that matter.

So how has the waiting period helped you, or any single person you know, or even don't know? Cite one single factual anecdote that can be corroborated other than based in supposition, and I'll be impressed.

Fate
01-01-2013, 11:08 AM
If I want to go to church, I don't have to wait 10 days.

If I want to drive somewhere, I don't have to wait 10 days.

If I want to write my Senator to voice my opinion on a political topic, I don't have to wait 10 days.

There's no 10-day waiting period to get together with friends.

The cops don't have a 10-day grace period to search my home before the warrant kicks in.

So why in God's name do you think it is ok to wait 10 days to exercise your fundamental right to keep and bear a firearm?

Why in God's name are you ok trading a fundamental right for the safety of someone hell-bent on offing themselves?
BINGO!

Let's have a 10 day wait to cross a bridge lest you fling yourself off it in a moment of uncontrolled loony-ness. :facepalm:

"Cooling off periods" are just more gun control with the emphasis on CONTROL. More hoops to jump thru makes it harder for people to attain a firearm.

audiophil2
01-01-2013, 11:10 AM
You have thirty guns and can't wait ten days to get number thirty one? It's a minor inconvenience. If riots hit gun sales will be suspended anyway. Woman fears for her life from abusive husband. Call social services and get out.

It's more like an unnecessary tax. Consider the additional time and fuel wasted for the same end result that takes 5 minutes in most states. I like being able to take my purchase home the same day I pay for it.

tcrpe
01-01-2013, 11:10 AM
Hilarious; you have never shopped or bought a home have you, let alone dealt in the real-estate market much? Even if the story gets shared at all, which it usually isn't and I know of no required disclosure for such instances in CA, few people are squeamish in this current real-estate market if they are getting a deal; even knowing it's history, they are going to see it as a deal to be had. I wouldn't care.

And it's much more common and easier than you think; you get a clean-up/haz-mat restoration team in there, new paint, and nobody knows the difference; after the police and coroner go through it, it only takes a day. It's a much worse situation with a severe sewer back-up or broken hot-water under-sink hose, depending on how long wither were leaking; with mold issues, dry-rot, etc., than a simply single-point clean-up of brains and blood.

I'd take a home with a suicide, murder, or simply a rotting dead body that needed clean-up over a prolonged sewer back-up or water damage issue ANY day.

:boat:


Actually, California law requires disclosure for death/murder/suicide unless the event happened three years or more before, or involved AIDS.

The Gleam
01-01-2013, 11:11 AM
A waiting period makes no sense especially for those who already possess a firearm. When it was originally put into effect it was to allow time for a background check. With the automated NICS this is done in a matter of minutes and it has become simply a way to inconvenience the purchaser by the anti's. The 30 days between handgun purchases is also without any merit.


Exactly; they played "Goldilocks" selection with the Brady bill, CA going from 15 days to 10 days when NICS came about, where some others states had 5 days, and with NICS many went down to no waiting period. It's a ruse. No evidence exists whatsoever to prove it stops crimes, violence, suicides, or accidents.

Fate
01-01-2013, 11:14 AM
When I worked in SAR, ... there was even a guy who committed suicide with a chainsaw.

Talk about perseverance!

Reminds me of this doodle of a worm crawling over a razor blade.

http://www.folklore.ee/Droodles/Pildid/3958.gif

The Gleam
01-01-2013, 11:15 AM
Actually, California law requires disclosure for death/murder/suicide unless the event happened three years or more before, or involved AIDS.

People die all the damned time in their homes so I highly doubt that's merely for any common death. But, I have no reason not to doubt you and if I get the time, I'll look up the full details.

But I can guarantee you this; real estate brokers are NOT following that law on an average of 99.9% of the time.

So in the event of that law is exactly as you say, it's even more useless than a 10-day waiting period!

RudyCakes
01-01-2013, 11:19 AM
I just hate the idea that I should wait 10 days for a Ruger 10/22 when I have AR's, shotguns, pistols, lever actions, and a dozen bolt guns. It's just silly.
I also believe people should have the right to check out whenever they want. If they need relief that bad, it's no business of mine.

CitaDeL
01-01-2013, 11:21 AM
Saw this story:

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/pastors-wife-buys-gun-from-tx-gun-shop-and-shoots-herself-dead-in-the-parking-lot/

In short, a Texas pastor's wife buys a handgun and then commits suicide with it in the parking lot.

I was talking to a guy the other day and we were both fomenting the 10 day wait. Our conclusion was that for the first gun... ...ok. But what is the use after you already have your first? None!

By all means I am not for more gun laws (and california already has a 10 day jail time), but I can see a use for it... but maybe 2 - 3 days?

(Sorry if this is a dup, but I searched around for it without finding it)

I think this post should have been subjected to a ten day wait.

donw
01-01-2013, 11:22 AM
actually, when i think about it, the only "cooling off period" i've undergone when purchasing another firearm, is cooling down from the prices we have to pay for "DROS" or "HSC" fees...

CessnaDriver
01-01-2013, 11:37 AM
One thing is without doubt silly, once you already own guns there is no point at all for a "cooling off" period. That should be fixed.

tcrpe
01-01-2013, 11:42 AM
People die all the damned time in their homes so I highly doubt that's merely for any common death. But, I have no reason not to doubt you and if I get the time, I'll look up the full details.

But I can guarantee you this; real estate brokers are NOT following that law on an average of 99.9% of the time.

So in the event of that law is exactly as you say, it's even more useless than a 10-day waiting period!

Start here. (http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/cacode/CIV/5/d3/3/s1710.2)

IANAL IANAD

leadstorm
01-01-2013, 12:18 PM
You have thirty guns and can't wait ten days to get number thirty one? It's a minor inconvenience.Wrong.

Just last week I was considering a non-rostered pistol that's up in NorCal to add to my collection. Two trips up there to complete the transaction makes it unfeasible, not just an inconvenience.

Get this: 42 states have no waiting period. The blood does not flow in the streets in those states (source: The Washington Post)

Get this also: California had more than 10% of all US suicides committed within its borders in 2010 (source: US CDC), and California has the longest waiting period in the US for a firearm.

Woman fears for her life from abusive husband. Call social services and get outYou've obviously never witnessed an abusive relationship in action.

As far as the RTKBA, you make a deadly error by confusing an inconvenience with an infringement.

EL_NinO619
01-01-2013, 12:22 PM
I have absolutely no problem with a 10 day wait on your first long gun or pistol, but it is just idiotic to have someone wait ten days when they already own a 100 guns. Yes if you did not stop me from getting that gun I would have killed myself or others, even though I have 99 other firearms in my safe, Sounds logical.

12voltguy
01-01-2013, 12:28 PM
I have absolutely no problem with a 10 day wait on your first long gun or pistol, but it is just idiotic to have someone wait ten days when they already own a 100 guns. Yes if you did not stop me from getting that gun I would have killed myself or others, even though I have 99 other firearms in my safe, Sounds logical.

your safe holds 99 guns?
lets see pics!:D

44fred
01-01-2013, 12:30 PM
Captain obvious here
Let's continue to discuss how ludicrous some of our current gun laws are.
On the other hand, some of us still don't get it.

EL_NinO619
01-01-2013, 12:34 PM
Here you go...:43:

http://cdn.firearmstalk.com/forums/attachments/f20/54035d1344606077-ffl-custon-vault-nra-pres-moses-basement-image-4038110773.jpg

adrenaline
01-01-2013, 12:40 PM
The way I see it. Every gun control law that seeks to stop evil from doing its thing also prevents good from protecting from evil (a woman who feels like she is being stalked so wants a gun that very evening). People don't realize this.

There are some gunners who are ok with restricted capacity magazines. :facepalm:

eeQiVBvy0m0

donkin
01-01-2013, 12:44 PM
anyone who thinks that a waiting period is good, even for the 1st gun should reconsider that. youve been in california too long and are starting to think like "them". lol :)

i do not think there should be a waiting period in california. if you are able to pass the background check, you should be able to get it then.

too may laws, regulations, restrictions in california across the board.

i was born and raised in california, but moved to nevada and bought a house here in order to have more personal and economic freedom for myself and my children.

it's convenient and legal to be able to walk into a store and leave 20 minutes later with your gun. do you realize how many more legalities, rules, regulations and restrictions you have to wade through living in california? why would you say yeah okay i think a 10 day waiting period is ok for the 1st gun when you already have enough opressive gun laws to deal with?

they start with the 10 day waiting period, then next 30 round magazines, then all these rules about having it in a locked container when transporting, making you register your preban assualt rifles...no more open carry in california, etc. you are being spoon fed that its for your own good and for the safety of the public and then in slow incriments, piece by piece you lose your rights, until your left only legally able to own a single shot 22lr rifle.

if you start thinking this or that gun law is ok, not so bad or just a minor inconvenience, then one day the anti-gun culture in california may become completely normalized, and by the time it does you are already so used to those restrictive gun laws it just seems/feels right and you stop fighting for your gun rights.

so dont think the 10 day cooling off period is not infringing upon your rights or a minor inconvenience, because it is just one more way they chip at your gun ownership.

personal liberty (so long as it is not harming anyone else) is much more important than any restrictive legislation no matter how good the intent. just because one person may need a cooling off period doesn't mean everyone else does and even if one person does something illegal, that right should not be denied everyone else.

the 2nd ammendment is a right not a privilege like driving a car, so i dont think there should be any HSC test or registration either in california.

fred40
01-01-2013, 12:47 PM
First firearm, I can understand. After that it makes no sense.

Scott Connors
01-01-2013, 12:51 PM
When I was stationed in Georgia, each county could decide whether to have a waiting period. I read about a woman who was murdered by an ex because her county's law prevented her from getting a pistol for self-defense. In her case "cooling off" meant going from 98.6 degrees Fahrenheit to room temperature.

Bad Voodoo
01-01-2013, 12:58 PM
So what you're saying is that a woman living in fear of an abusive or murderous ex should just go ahead and take a few more beating or just die while waiting out her 10 days?

Excellent point. This article apropos here (highlights are my own):

http://www.keepandbeararms.com/information/XcIBViewItem.asp?id=2794

3. Any reasonable law would incorporate built-in, nearly automatic exceptions which would allow anyone who is under immediate physical threat to swear to that fact under penalty of perjury and obtain a waiver of any waiting periods, safety testing, residency requirements, and other routine requirements, pending a resolution of their situation.

No law can be reasonable or common-sense if it endangers or handicaps those who are most in need of protection while it only deals effectively with routine situations. It makes far more sense to design a law to be most efficient in dealing with the most serious life-or-death situations, not the routine or trivial ones.

dieselpower
01-01-2013, 12:59 PM
I can't believe how many are willing to accept a course of action that has no facts to back it up...

The 10 day wait, or even the 3 day wait is a lie. It doesn't do anything more than force a person who needs a gun to have to wait in fear for X number of days.

It stops less evil then it causes.

analogy time...

Since some people spend all their money on payday, the new law is you have to wait 3 days to get your paycheck.

If you can see any logic in that, you need to take a good look at the school system that educated you.

EM2
01-01-2013, 1:26 PM
It's more like an unnecessary tax. Consider the additional time and fuel wasted for the same end result that takes 5 minutes in most states. I like being able to take my purchase home the same day I pay for it.


Ah, good point(s).

You would think the environmentalists would be on our side.
No waiting period therefore no extra trips to the store all = less green house gases. :D

Taking home your purchase the day of the sale woulda prevented what happened to these guys.
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=668267

EM2
01-01-2013, 1:29 PM
You have thirty guns and can't wait ten days to get number thirty one? It's a minor inconvenience. If riots hit gun sales will be suspended anyway. Woman fears for her life from abusive husband. Call social services and get out.


Yeah but you forgot one very important thing here.
YOU ARE LOOKING AT THE WORLD THROUGH YOUR EYES.
Step back and pretend that you are not the only one out there.
There are many differing people with differing circumstances and you seem to support a one size fits all rule.
It is people like you that are destroying LIBERTY.

Goosebrown
01-01-2013, 1:30 PM
I agree with a waiting period on the first gun you own, but I just shut up, because I am not going to provide any comfort at all to our enemies. I do think that the wait for all subsequent guns is pretty useless. If you have a gun, you aren't going to wait 10 days for a "fresh" gun to commit some crime then sometime on the 9th day change your mind...

EM2
01-01-2013, 1:31 PM
Actually, California law requires disclosure for death/murder/suicide unless the event happened three years or more before, or involved AIDS.


Care to cite the code?

Anchors
01-01-2013, 1:35 PM
A guy recently bought a gun from a shop in SoCal and waited 10 days, picked it up, drove out to the middle of nowhere, and did it.

I don't see how someone who has no will to live will change their minds in a week and a half.

Nxd9ar15xcrL
01-01-2013, 1:48 PM
anyone who thinks that a waiting period is good, even for the 1st gun should reconsider that. youve been in california too long and are starting to think like "them". lol :)

i do not think there should be a waiting period in california. if you are able to pass the background check, you should be able to get it then.

too may laws, regulations, restrictions in california across the board.

i was born and raised in california, but moved to nevada and bought a house here in order to have more personal and economic freedom for myself and my children.

it's convenient and legal to be able to walk into a store and leave 20 minutes later with your gun. do you realize how many more legalities, rules, regulations and restrictions you have to wade through living in california? why would you say yeah okay i think a 10 day waiting period is ok for the 1st gun when you already have enough opressive gun laws to deal with?

they start with the 10 day waiting period, then next 30 round magazines, then all these rules about having it in a locked container when transporting, making you register your preban assualt rifles...no more open carry in california, etc. you are being spoon fed that its for your own good and for the safety of the public and then in slow incriments, piece by piece you lose your rights, until your left only legally able to own a single shot 22lr rifle.

if you start thinking this or that gun law is ok, not so bad or just a minor inconvenience, then one day the anti-gun culture in california may become completely normalized, and by the time it does you are already so used to those restrictive gun laws it just seems/feels right and you stop fighting for your gun rights.

so dont think the 10 day cooling off period is not infringing upon your rights or a minor inconvenience, because it is just one more way they chip at your gun ownership.

personal liberty (so long as it is not harming anyone else) is much more important than any restrictive legislation no matter how good the intent. just because one person may need a cooling off period doesn't mean everyone else does and even if one person does something illegal, that right should not be denied everyone else.

the 2nd ammendment is a right not a privilege like driving a car, so i dont think there should be any HSC test or registration either in california.

I can't believe how many are willing to accept a course of action that has no facts to back it up...

The 10 day wait, or even the 3 day wait is a lie. It doesn't do anything more than force a person who needs a gun to have to wait in fear for X number of days.

It stops less evil then it causes.

analogy time...

Since some people spend all their money on payday, the new law is you have to wait 3 days to get your paycheck.

If you can see any logic in that, you need to take a good look at the school system that educated you.

So what you're saying is that a woman living in fear of an abusive or murderous ex should just go ahead and take a few more beating or just die while waiting out her 10 days? And the small business owner watching neighbor business burn during riots should wait 10 days? And the father that can't afford to keep a gun collection should remain helpless to protect his family for the 1st 10 days of the next riots or in the face of gang threats? There is no moral justification for making any US citizen wait 10 days to enjoy their rights.

So how about a cooling off period requiring you (and "journalists") to sit out a 10 day cooling off period between having a thought and putting voice to it? You know, to give time to think it through and change your mind. :rolleyes:


As the OP, Thank You Donkin & Dieselpower and many others for good thought out points that get your argument across rather than trying to belittle me like a few of you have nothing better to do.

I am amazed how my original post was misconstrued into me being a left wing gun control loving fanatic... Did you look at the source of the news article? Apparently Not!!! (It's the Blaze... aka Glenn Beck)

I have been around suicides and if they want to do, then they will find a way to do it... some like taking pills, wrists, etc, are not so irreversible as a gun shot to the head. And thank God she only did herself in and not someone on the interstate! I new someone in high school that ended it driving head on into a 8' dia tree.

I am not so sure that any gun stores are going to be open during a riot going on. What is the gun store going to sell guns to both sides and the both go out and shoot each other... I would think a better defense would be to be prepared before hand, getting the gun at the minute you need it... kinda a poor way to prepare.

The only thing I am going to say about a gun in a household with an abusive husband is that do you want a household with a husband beating the wife to have a gun in it? (And no, there is no law that will ever stop this!)

Yes, there are only a hand full of cases that a waiting period would solve a crime, but by far and away the waiting period does nothing.

santamonica9
01-01-2013, 1:49 PM
not only is the 10 day wait complete BS -> in ca one handgun per 30 days is unlawful. yup I know PPT's dont count but what if I want to buy several handguns together....matching cowboy sing action style...yup I still have to wait another 30 days until I can dros the second one.

SO SAD that idiots that know nothing about firearms can make all these emotional decisions that affect everyone. I say we ban pools, how many innocent children die in pools every year? Ban cars people die in them every year. We need to save the children so lets ban pencils, you can put an eye out. This type of nanny state logic will never stop. just look how Bloomberg banned those large soft drinks in N.Y.

People who vote need to have a background check to see if they are mentally competent to vote - end rant

robcoe
01-01-2013, 1:52 PM
Saw this story:

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/pastors-wife-buys-gun-from-tx-gun-shop-and-shoots-herself-dead-in-the-parking-lot/

In short, a Texas pastor's wife buys a handgun and then commits suicide with it in the parking lot.

I was talking to a guy the other day and we were both fomenting the 10 day wait. Our conclusion was that for the first gun... ...ok. But what is the use after you already have your first? None!

By all means I am not for more gun laws (and california already has a 10 day jail time), but I can see a use for it... but maybe 2 - 3 days?

(Sorry if this is a dup, but I searched around for it without finding it)

And while that is sad, people who want to kill themselves find a way.

The opposit however is just as likely, a young woman has a crazy ex boyfriend, he threatens to kill her. She decides to buy a gun for defense and while on the "cooling off" term he kills her.

Nxd9ar15xcrL
01-01-2013, 1:52 PM
A guy recently bought a gun from a shop in SoCal and waited 10 days, picked it up, drove out to the middle of nowhere, and did it.

I don't see how someone who has no will to live will change their minds in a week and a half.

The flip side of the coin.

Nxd9ar15xcrL
01-01-2013, 1:57 PM
not only is the 10 day wait complete BS -> in ca one handgun per 30 days is unlawful. yup I know PPT's dont count but what if I want to buy several handguns together....matching cowboy sing action style...yup I still have to wait another 30 days until I can dros the second one.

SO SAD that idiots that know nothing about firearms can make all these emotional decisions that affect everyone. I say we ban pools, how many innocent children die in pools every year? Ban cars people die in them every year. We need to save the children so lets ban pencils, you can put an eye out. This type of nanny state logic will never stop. just look how Bloomberg banned those large soft drinks in N.Y.

People who vote need to have a background check to see if they are mentally competent to vote - end rant

the 30 days per handgun is complete BS

Don't forget about banning the spoon that makes people fat and die of heart disease.

Heck, just a quick 3 question test would get rid of most 'uninformed' voters

chayden
01-01-2013, 2:07 PM
A sad thought is that they know they can never take away your 2A rights, but they can make owning a gun so burdensome it is practically useless. No ammo, no ability to take it out of your home (without violating some BS law), no ability to use it in your home becuase people live within xxx ft of you (i.e...send you to jail after using a gun in self defense in your home.)
They'll build a wall of laws which won't take your gun away, but will practically make it unlawful to ever bring it out of your safe much less be able to find ammo to use in it.

TempleKnight
01-01-2013, 2:12 PM
You have thirty guns and can't wait ten days to get number thirty one? It's a minor inconvenience. If riots hit gun sales will be suspended anyway. Woman fears for her life from abusive husband. Call social services and get out.

Any law, not just gun laws, should have a stated purpose. If the law doesn't serve that purpose it needs to go away. After you own one gun and/or have an LTC, what's the point of cooling off?

Newer gun owners seem to accept the incremental creep of "compromise" too easily. Every law should have a sunset provision and should not be renewed unless it is proven to be effective. Too many laws have been written during a crisis to divert attention from law makers inability to do the basic management (budgets, etc) that they are tasked with.

Maybe we need to put a proposition on the ballot that no laws can be passed until after a budget is passed.

Tarn_Helm
01-01-2013, 2:12 PM
Saw this story:

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/pastors-wife-buys-gun-from-tx-gun-shop-and-shoots-herself-dead-in-the-parking-lot/

In short, a Texas pastor's wife buys a handgun and then commits suicide with it in the parking lot.

I was talking to a guy the other day and we were both fomenting the 10 day wait. Our conclusion was that for the first gun... ...ok. But what is the use after you already have your first? None!

By all means I am not for more gun laws (and california already has a 10 day jail time), but I can see a use for it... but maybe 2 - 3 days?

(Sorry if this is a dup, but I searched around for it without finding it)

A "waiting period?"

If anybody thinks we should have waiting periods, consider this.

Should we have a waiting period for the tools mentioned explicitly or implicitly in the other Amendments in our Bill of Rights? For example, a waiting period for items relevant to the First Amendment's recognition of a right to freedom of expression?

Should we have a ten-day waiting period placed on purchases of pencils, pens, paper, computers, word processing programs, ham radio sets (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amateur_radio), CB radios (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizens_Band_radio), internet connectivity, and so on?

If anything, we should have a "waiting period" on all legislation aimed at extracting more money from taxpayers. (http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/new-normal_692480.html)

Especially when that money goes to give raises to our corrupt (http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/336632/mega-scandal-everyone-has-forgotten-john-fund), greedy (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/28/obama-pay-raise-congress_n_2377714.html), and incompetent politicians (http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog/2013/01/cbo-on-fiscal-cliff-deal-.html).

If history teaches anything, history teaches that a forfeited freedom is almost never regained without shedding as much or more blood as it took to win it in the first place.

I say "no" to waiting periods for any and all firearms.

In fact: HELL NO.

A person bent on harming himself or others does not need a gun for the purpose.

Any more dumb questions?
:facepalm:

huntercf
01-01-2013, 2:12 PM
the 30 days per handgun is complete BS

Don't forget about banning the spoon that makes people fat and die of heart disease.

Heck, just a quick 3 question test would get rid of most 'uninformed' voters

Agreed:
Here's the test:
1) Do you believe the 2A guarantees the right to own any firearm?
2) Did you vote for 0bama in Nov. 2012?
3) Have you been on welfare for longer than 2 years?

If you answer No to question 1 you cannot be trusted with voting and a mandatory 10 year waiting period is in effect for you.
If you answer Yes to question 2 your voting rights are permanently revoked along with all other constitutional rights.
If you answer Yes to question 3 your voting rights are suspended until you get a job.

winnre
01-01-2013, 2:20 PM
Do background checks include anything that would show your mental condition? I mean if I am seeing a shrink for depression, will a background check find this out? How deep do they go other than a simple police records check?

12voltguy
01-01-2013, 2:21 PM
the 30 days per handgun is complete BS

Don't forget about banning the spoon that makes people fat and die of heart disease.

Heck, just a quick 3 question test would get rid of most 'uninformed' voters

30 thing
if you have 2 boys and go to get them both a ruger 22 pistol
you can't do it in less then 40 days with the 1 per 30 + 10 day
& if you want 3 for all 3 of you, now it's 70 days

The Gleam
01-01-2013, 2:24 PM
I propose a compromise, like a good subordinate subject of California:

A firearm "dating" period.

This means that during your 10 days of purgatory and persecution, you get to take the gun out from the gun store on dates; take it to the range, take it hunting, introduce it to its new neighbors in the safe, take it home to wear it holstered or over your shoulder while cutting the grass, use it for self-defense, you know, really get to know it... but it has to be back at the gun store each day during the 10-day wait by store-hours closing, or curfew, in which curfew will be determined by "when the street-lights come on".

And THAT is about as useless as the "waiting period". :rolleyes:

winnre
01-01-2013, 2:24 PM
If you don't like the 1 in 30 rule:
1. Get your COE.
2. Get your C&R.
3.Shop at a place that understands you are now exempt (e.g., not Turner's).

OleCuss
01-01-2013, 2:29 PM
I think there is an overly simplistic view of the matter.

As was pointed out quite a few times, there are a lot of ways in which to commit suicide. That's why it is interesting that people sometimes use firearms for that purpose.

In many cases people are not only wanting to die, they are trying to set up a scene and/or induce a reaction in others. If the scene or effect they are trying to set up requires (they think) the use of a firearm, then the inability to get the firearm kills the scenario or requires the generation of another scenario.

It is also interesting that a lot of people aren't all that proficient at killing themselves using non-firearms methods.

I had an acquaintance who crashed his vehicle in an apparent suicide attempt. He survived it sufficiently well that when he apparently realized that technique had not killed him but had left him badly injured - he shot himself.

There are a lot of people who have tried to commit suicide using medications - and survived the attempt.

Being suicidal can also be a relatively short duration situation. Particularly with skilled intervention a suicidal person can be changed to a non-suicidal person in less than an hour.

You put all this together and I think it is likely that a waiting period really does save some people from committing suicide. Not sure it saves very many lives, however. . .

One other thing? Here in the U.S. the most common successful method of suicide is believed to be by use of a firearm.

That said, I believe our suicide statistics to be significantly erroneous. Actually, cause of death statistics in general are really pretty bad. . . I believe that there are a fair number of people who have committed suicide by non-firearms means but their deaths are not acknowledged to have been such. But anyway you look at it, it is still likely the most successful means of suicide here in the U.S.A. Ignoring this doesn't help our case.


But then you need to toss in the perspective:

1. One of the more common/effective methods is hanging/suffocation. So what do we do to fix this? How about banning ropes and plastic bags? And ropes and plastic bags are neither essential for self-defense nor is their possession or use protected by our Constitution due to recognition as a fundamental human right.

2. Poisoning. I know there are a lot of people who have tried this method. Frankly, I'm not sure what the overall stats are, but I think there are a lot more suicide attempts using this method than there are with firearms. Furthermore, I suspect there are a lot more successful suicides using pharmaceuticals than there are with firearms but the statistics do not show this. The use of pharmaceuticals is not essential for self-defense nor is their possession or use protected by our Constitution due to explicit recognition as a fundamental human right.

4. Falls figure significantly in the statistics. So we should maybe outlaw bridges, skyscrapers, cliffs, etc.?

5. There are certainly plenty of suicides and homicides with motor vehicles. And the carnage on our roads greatly outstrips the number of deaths attributed to firearms suicides.


I'm not sure how one can say that a large percentage of a population can be barred from exercising their fundamental right to self-defense because there are people who become suicidal.

I'd also like to point back to Hollywood. There really is no fundamental reason why they have to portray so much gun violence in the movies. There is also no fundamental reason why they and their comrades much publish violent video games.

I really do think that regularly watching violent movies and playing violent video games tends to de-sensitize people to the horror of the killing of humans in a way in which even hunting and combat do not.

I'm not advocating governmental censorship, but why would someone find it surprising that firearms are preferred by the homicidally or suicidally disturbed folk when they are regularly exposed to graphic depictions of the homicidal and suicidal behavior with firearms?

There may be some utility to a waiting period before firearms purchase, but I see no good evidence that there is a net decrease in the death rate of humans as a result - or that any such waiting period could be justified.

One other quick point? Enforcing the straw purchaser provisions against those who are supplying firearms to the gangbangers would be effective and Constitutional. Really weird that they do not enforce those provisions in already existing and Constitutional law but instead pursue clearly anti-liberty laws of doubtful benefit.

ifilef
01-01-2013, 2:31 PM
if you're willing to off yourself in a public parking lot, no waiting period will save you. And you're right, there is absolutely no logical reason that there should be a waiting period for existing firearms owners. Political theater with the added bonus of adding another layer of bureaucratic inconv
enience to discourage gun purchasing.

Has anyone here had a despairing moment, or an incredibly angry period of time in their life?

The waiting period is a 'cooling-off' period to protect the public and people from themselves. It also affords sufficient time for the bureaucracy to operate.

I don't mind the law, but I would be in favor of shortening the period to 7 days, not 10. I can also see the reasoning behind not requiring such a long time for prior gun owners to wait - but that might incur additional cost to verify.

stix213
01-01-2013, 2:34 PM
Saw this story:

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/pastors-wife-buys-gun-from-tx-gun-shop-and-shoots-herself-dead-in-the-parking-lot/

In short, a Texas pastor's wife buys a handgun and then commits suicide with it in the parking lot.

I was talking to a guy the other day and we were both fomenting the 10 day wait. Our conclusion was that for the first gun... ...ok. But what is the use after you already have your first? None!

By all means I am not for more gun laws (and california already has a 10 day jail time), but I can see a use for it... but maybe 2 - 3 days?

(Sorry if this is a dup, but I searched around for it without finding it)

Should also be a 10 day wait to cross the Golden Gate Bridge then :rolleyes:

CBruce
01-01-2013, 2:57 PM
Saw this story:

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/pastors-wife-buys-gun-from-tx-gun-shop-and-shoots-herself-dead-in-the-parking-lot/

In short, a Texas pastor's wife buys a handgun and then commits suicide with it in the parking lot.

I was talking to a guy the other day and we were both fomenting the 10 day wait. Our conclusion was that for the first gun... ...ok. But what is the use after you already have your first? None!

By all means I am not for more gun laws (and california already has a 10 day jail time), but I can see a use for it... but maybe 2 - 3 days?

(Sorry if this is a dup, but I searched around for it without finding it)

I don't really have a problem with a waiting period, but we need some common sense here.

First, it's probably not doing anything. Anyone who's of a mind to go and buy a gun to do something illegal or dangerous to themselves is just of that mind. No amount of time is likely to make any difference. Would it have prevented this event? Maybe. But more likely she would have just stepped in front of a train, jumped off an overpass, or done something equally as life-ending.

Does it prevent crimes of passion? Very unlikely. If someone's angry enough to want to murder another person, they're going to find a way. Even if they insist on having a gun to do it, wait their 3 or 10 days...this is a person who's fundamentally broken. They're buying a gun to kill someone. Is delaying them really the best we can do here?

Finally, if we're going to institute a waiting period then it needs some common sense exemptions. Current firearm owners, anyone who's got a CCW permit, anyone who can demonstrate a dire and immediate need for a firearm for self-defense.

I know there are plenty here who'll chant the normal "not one inch" mantra, but this is one of those restrictions that at least has some merit in rationality and it doesn't have to infringe on responsible, law-abiding people if we don't let it.

Problem is, it's not being used as a tool to limit illicit or tragic use of guns. It's just another bullet in the anti-gun arsenal, and logical exemptions are never on the table.

Nxd9ar15xcrL
01-01-2013, 3:12 PM
A "waiting period?"

If anybody thinks we should have waiting periods, consider this.

Should we have a waiting period for the tools mentioned explicitly or implicitly in the other Amendments in our Bill of Rights? For example, a waiting period for items relevant to the First Amendment's recognition of a right to freedom of expression?

Should we have a ten-day waiting period placed on purchases of pencils, pens, paper, computers, word processing programs, ham radio sets (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amateur_radio), CB radios (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizens_Band_radio), internet connectivity, and so on?

If anything, we should have a "waiting period" on all legislation aimed at extracting more money from taxpayers. (http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/new-normal_692480.html)

Especially when that money goes to give raises to our corrupt (http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/336632/mega-scandal-everyone-has-forgotten-john-fund), greedy (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/28/obama-pay-raise-congress_n_2377714.html), and incompetent politicians (http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog/2013/01/cbo-on-fiscal-cliff-deal-.html).

If history teaches anything, history teaches that a forfeited freedom is almost never regained without shedding as much or more blood as it took to win it in the first place.

I say "no" to waiting periods for any and all firearms.

In fact: HELL NO.

A person bent on harming himself or others does not need a gun for the purpose.

Any more dumb questions?
:facepalm:

I agree with you whole heartedly, until you dismissed this question as dumb that has produced 2 pages of mostly really good discussion and reasoning why not to have a wait time & that you just took your thoughtful time in answering.

This is not a dumb question. From here on out, anyone that has read this thread can give a gun control fanatic a good level headed argument. Maybe even without calling them stupid :).

tcrpe
01-01-2013, 3:17 PM
Care to cite the code?

Already did. In this thread. Post #56.

You're welcome.

ETA: After seven years here, and over 10,000 posts, a policy change is in order. I shall only provide cites when asked politely. Thank you for your understanding!

xIpLd0WQKCY

ifilef
01-01-2013, 3:19 PM
If everyone was of a right mind, they would not shoot themselves or others, without reason or justification. The wait period is a reasonable restriction on obtaining a firearm -a time to 'cool-off' if you will. Don't waste your time arguing about it here-it's not going away in this State. Move somewhere else into a so-called 'Free State' if you don't like it here.

taperxz
01-01-2013, 3:20 PM
Hilarious; you have never shopped or bought a home have you, let alone dealt in the real-estate market much? Even if the story gets shared at all, which it usually isn't and I know of no required disclosure for such instances in CA, few people are squeamish in this current real-estate market if they are getting a deal; even knowing it's history, they are going to see it as a deal to be had. I wouldn't care.

And it's much more common and easier than you think; you get a clean-up/haz-mat restoration team in there, new paint, and nobody knows the difference; after the police and coroner go through it, it only takes a day. It's a much worse situation with a severe sewer back-up or broken hot-water under-sink hose, depending on how long wither were leaking; with mold issues, dry-rot, etc., than a simply single-point clean-up of brains and blood.

I'd take a home with a suicide, murder, or simply a rotting dead body that needed clean-up over a prolonged sewer back-up or water damage issue ANY day.

:boat:

I'm hillarious? I happen to know quite a bit about the real estate market in this state being that i own many places in this state. YES a death within the confines of the house must be disclosed.

Unlike desperate buyers like yourself, this diverse population has many that will not buy a house where someone has died or committed suicide in. They tend to believe that the spirit will remain in that house. Thus creating a situation where not as many people want it and thus driving the price down.

I guess you have never had to sell a house that had someone die in it before have you?:facepalm:

bohoki
01-01-2013, 3:22 PM
yea the old threat "i'll be back" has turned into "see you in 10 days"

gregorylucas
01-01-2013, 3:24 PM
I could live with the 10 day waiting period for the first firearm I purchased but the 20th seems VERY stupid.

-Greg

ifilef
01-01-2013, 3:27 PM
If I want to go to church, I don't have to wait 10 days.

If I want to drive somewhere, I don't have to wait 10 days.

If I want to write my Senator to voice my opinion on a political topic, I don't have to wait 10 days.

There's no 10-day waiting period to get together with friends.

The cops don't have a 10-day grace period to search my home before the warrant kicks in.

So why in God's name do you think it is ok to wait 10 days to exercise your fundamental right to keep and bear a firearm?

Why in God's name are you ok trading a fundamental right for the safety of someone hell-bent on offing themselves?

The speciousness of the argument is appalling. There's a waiting period because firearms are deadly. Pretty good chance that woman might not have died in that way and at that time if the firearm were not immediately available,

Lone_Gunman
01-01-2013, 3:42 PM
My view is that anything that keeps an adult from walking into a store, purchasing any firearm, up to and including a select fire or fully automatic weapon is an infringement. I know that this runs counter to what many gun owners believe but I think that is the true meaning of the second amendment, and the infringement began with the 1934 NFA. There should be no waiting period, there should be no registration, no DROS, and no sales tax on a fundamental right.
Of course I don't know that we will ever be able to get back to our pre 1934 rights, but that's what I'd like to see.

donkin
01-01-2013, 3:46 PM
If everyone was of a right mind, they would not shoot themselves or others, without reason or justification. The wait period is a reasonable restriction on obtaining a firearm -a time to 'cool-off' if you will. Don't waste your time arguing about it here-it's not going away in this State. Move somewhere else into a so-called 'Free State' if you don't like it here.

i am in nevada now. :)

Lone_Gunman
01-01-2013, 4:04 PM
If everyone was of a right mind, they would not shoot themselves or others, without reason or justification. The wait period is a reasonable restriction on obtaining a firearm -a time to 'cool-off' if you will. Don't waste your time arguing about it here-it's not going away in this State. Move somewhere else into a so-called 'Free State' if you don't like it here.

I find this post offensive. It is advocating an infringement on my God given rights, and saying that I should leave my home, of which I am a 4th generation resident to exercise them. This post has caused me to be depressed, it has effected my right to happiness, my right not to feel oppressed, my right to good mental health.

I am calling for a 24 hour wait on all Internet posts. The founding fathers could have never imagined the pace at which information would be disseminated in the 21st century. The first amendment was written in a time when in order to present the written word to a large group of people it would have had to have been printed on a manual printing press. The type would have had to have been set by hand, the entire process would have taken several days at a minimum.

I do not think its unreasonable to require a mandated "reflecting period" in which someone would be expected to reflect on the consequences of their written words. This is not an infringement, because no one is saying you can't write something, I'm just asking that you do the responsible thing and think about the repercussions of what is being written.

We live in a time of 24/7 social media exposure. Cyber bullying is out of control, this waiting period would help address this problem. If this waiting period had been in place in April 2012 Grace McComas may not have committed suicide as a result of cyber bullying. If it saves just one life it's worth it.

12voltguy
01-01-2013, 4:36 PM
I find this post offensive. It is advocating an infringement on my God given rights, and saying that I should leave my home, of which I am a 4th generation resident to exercise them. This post has caused me to be depressed, it has effected my right to happiness, my right not to feel oppressed, my right to good mental health.

I am calling for a 24 hour wait on all Internet posts. The founding fathers could have never imagined the pace at which information would be disseminated in the 21st century. The first amendment was written in a time when in order to present the written word to a large group of people it would have had to have been printed on a manual printing press. The type would have had to have been set by hand, the entire process would have taken several days at a minimum.

I do not think its unreasonable to require a mandated "reflecting period" in which someone would be expected to reflect on the consequences of their written words. This is not an infringement, because no one is saying you can't write something, I'm just asking that you do the responsible thing and think about the repercussions of what is being written.

We live in a time of 24/7 social media exposure. Cyber bullying is out of control, this waiting period would help address this problem. If this waiting period had been in place in April 2012 Grace McComas may not have committed suicide as a result of cyber bullying. If it saves just one life it's worth it.

just add him to ignore, it works great:D

Tarn_Helm
01-01-2013, 4:40 PM
I agree with you whole heartedly, until you dismissed this question as dumb that has produced 2 pages of mostly really good discussion and reasoning why not to have a wait time & that you just took your thoughtful time in answering.

This is not a dumb question. From here on out, anyone that has read this thread can give a gun control fanatic a good level headed argument. Maybe even without calling them stupid :).

I guess I should have written: "Any more dumb questions asked by those who are unreflective, uninformed, and uneducated?"

Oh.

I forgot.

"Unreflective, uninformed, and uneducated" = synonym for "dumb."

Let me change it:

"Any more REALLY dumb questions asked by those who are unreflective, uninformed, and uneducated?"

To be honest, I think most of the folks who ask why we should not accept "waiting periods" or who promote them as sound law and policy are trolls.

That is why I do not scruple to characterize the question as something less than intelligent.

If I am wrong, my apologies.

But I doubt that I am.
:cool:

themandylion
01-01-2013, 5:39 PM
"Shall not be infringed" is literal, but a reasonable waiting period is the least of my concerns. I do know of situations where the waiting period, however, has meant a threatened individual has been defenseless until the waiting period expired ("restraining order," LOL - "you can't hurt me, I have a court order!"). Of course, it would have been better to have a firearm before needing it, but alas, that wasn't the case those folks.

EM2
01-01-2013, 5:43 PM
If you don't like the 1 in 30 rule:
1. Get your COE.
2. Get your C&R.
3.Shop at a place that understands you are now exempt (e.g., not Turner's).



Me thinks you missed one.
4. vote the bastards out that put this kind of **** into law in the first place.

EM2
01-01-2013, 5:51 PM
Has anyone here had a despairing moment, or an incredibly angry period of time in their life?

The waiting period is a 'cooling-off' period to protect the public and people from themselves. It also affords sufficient time for the bureaucracy to operate.

I don't mind the law, but I would be in favor of shortening the period to 7 days, not 10. I can also see the reasoning behind not requiring such a long time for prior gun owners to wait - but that might incur additional cost to verify.


Your thesis that a cooling off period will protect the public is predicated on what kind of evidence that it will work?
You propose to limit other's rights in an effort to protect a few disturbed individuals?
These cooling off periods do not in fact work for their stated purpose but rather work to further erode our rights and individual responsibility to the detriment of our society.

And about this 7 days instead of 10 or as some others propose 2-3 days, maybe 5.
From where do these quantity of days originate? Arbitrary numbers pulled from ones arse?
Are we at the point where we shall govern based on how some feel things should be rather than based on evidence, logic, reason & fact?

EM2
01-01-2013, 6:15 PM
The speciousness of the argument is appalling. There's a waiting period because firearms are deadly. Pretty good chance that woman might not have died in that way and at that time if the firearm were not immediately available,


Objects that are deadly, and have been proven to be so.
cars
trucks
knives
chainsaws
5 gallon buckets full-o-water
electrical equipment
backhoes
motorcycles
tractors
2x4 lumber with nails in it
tire iron
rope
candle stick
etc. etc. etc.

Gee where am I going with this?
This attachment with firearms being deadly is emotionally based because they were and are designed to kill and to kill efficiently.
However they can also be used to save lives as in self defense or the defense of others.

Ask yourself why you do not advocate a waiting period to purchase a car, 2x4 lumber, tire iron, rope, or knives.
All of these items have been intentionally used in the past to kill humans.
They may not have been designed to do the dirty dead of death but have been re-tasked to that duty from time to time.

Firearms however do stand out as the one best way to equalize the lack of streangth of the weaker persons against a larger, stronger, more numerous foe.

Are you here today to tell the world that you support stronger, larger, more numerous bad guys against the weaker & smaller innocent people of this world?


Now who's argument is specious?

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/specious
3: having a false look of truth or genuineness

anthonyca
01-01-2013, 6:19 PM
So what you're saying is that a woman living in fear of an abusive or murderous ex should just go ahead and take a few more beating or just die while waiting out her 10 days? And the small business owner watching neighbor business burn during riots should wait 10 days? And the father that can't afford to keep a gun collection should remain helpless to protect his family for the 1st 10 days of the next riots or in the face of gang threats? There is no moral justification for making any US citizen wait 10 days to enjoy their rights.

So how about a cooling off period requiring you (and "journalists") to sit out a 10 day cooling off period between having a thought and putting voice to it? You know, to give time to think it through and change your mind. :rolleyes:

Good points.

The waiting period is just another inconvenience to discourage the gun culture. You have to remember, most of the people who post here regularly are very strong gun enthusiast. Most gun owners are nothing of the sort. It is much easier to become a strong gun enthusiast when guns are available with no road blocks.

Many people have told me things such as...

Owning guns is a huge pain in the butt in California.
I was going to buy a gun but I don't have time for at least two trips to a gun store.
How do you even go about it here?
I don't want my name on some public registry that my employer can see or the cops can see when I get pulled over.
We can't own anything worth while here anyway so it's not worth it.

The people who are true gun lovers push past those things but the general public just says, forget it.

The antis are smarter than we give them credit for. The leaders of their movement rely on lies and use the emotion of ignorant masses but the leaders have a strategy.

Goop
01-01-2013, 6:33 PM
If they wanted to keep 24 or 48 hours i wouldn't mind. It might actually be a good idea to have a small cooling window. However 10 days is just terrible. Do you really need a full week and a half to cool off?

Nxd9ar15xcrL
01-01-2013, 6:35 PM
If I am wrong, my apologies.

:cool:


I gladly accept your apology.

Nodda Duma
01-01-2013, 6:46 PM
....

Now who's argument is specious?

Great post, and exactly how I would have responded to his silliness.


BTW, living in New Hampshire, I can attest to not feeling a sudden urge to off myself or others after paying for and walking out with a same-day purchase of a firearm (actually several since I've moved here from CA). I've also witnessed several friends who have purchased firearms without any sort of waiting period and, miraculously, they and their spouses are still alive.

taperxz
01-01-2013, 6:49 PM
A waiting period is no different than the government reading your mail before you get to read it or approving of any public statement you wish to make prior to their approval.

OP is trolling.

PackingHeatInSDCA
01-01-2013, 6:53 PM
I always thought the 10 day wait law was established when we did not have modern information systems like we do today. And it was so they had a reasonable amount of time to run a background check. Under those circumstances, I suported it.

However, today is totallly different. Background checks can be run in a matter of minutes. And so for that reason, I don't support the 10 day wait any longer.

dieselpower
01-01-2013, 7:19 PM
If they wanted to keep 24 or 48 hours i wouldn't mind. It might actually be a good idea to have a small cooling window. However 10 days is just terrible. Do you really need a full week and a half to cool off?

Why? 90% of the country has ZERO wait...its cash and carry after a 1 minute background check. They see no trouble in those States.

Why are you saying any wait a good thing?

sanjosebmx
01-01-2013, 7:28 PM
because people jump off the Golden Gate Bridge, should there be a 10 day cooling off period before you walk across it?

God Help Us All...

ifilef
01-01-2013, 7:35 PM
Your thesis that a cooling off period will protect the public is predicated on what kind of evidence that it will work?
You propose to limit other's rights in an effort to protect a few disturbed individuals?
These cooling off periods do not in fact work for their stated purpose but rather work to further erode our rights and individual responsibility to the detriment of our society.

And about this 7 days instead of 10 or as some others propose 2-3 days, maybe 5.
From where do these quantity of days originate? Arbitrary numbers pulled from ones arse?
Are we at the point where we shall govern based on how some feel things should be rather than based on evidence, logic, reason & fact?

I'm certain that it was not an arbitrary figure but was based on studies. You don't like it, try to change the law, or move out.

SCOTUS has said in the Heller case that gun ownership and rights are not unlimited, but subject to reasonable regulation.

This thread is a great way for the anti-gun proponents to point to how extreme and radical so many of you are...

And STOP with the GOD-GIVEN rights; we are a nation of laws, not men, and laws are what define our rights may be...they may be referenced or arise out of biblical principles, but this thread does more harm than good.

Why do you think that General Schwarzkopf and Ronald Reagan resigned their memberships from the NRA. Be smart, guys!

ifilef
01-01-2013, 7:41 PM
My view is that anything that keeps an adult from walking into a store, purchasing any firearm, up to and including a select fire or fully automatic weapon is an infringement. I know that this runs counter to what many gun owners believe but I think that is the true meaning of the second amendment, and the infringement began with the 1934 NFA. There should be no waiting period, there should be no registration, no DROS, and no sales tax on a fundamental right.
Of course I don't know that we will ever be able to get back to our pre 1934 rights, but that's what I'd like to see.

The above is 'fodder' for the Brady campaign.

I am through with this thread!

12voltguy
01-01-2013, 7:44 PM
I always thought the 10 day wait law was established when we did not have modern information systems like we do today. And it was so they had a reasonable amount of time to run a background check. Under those circumstances, I suported it.

However, today is totallly different. Background checks can be run in a matter of minutes. And so for that reason, I don't support the 10 day wait any longer.
CLOSE
was 15 days in the 1980s, extra 5 days was to mail in info

you can still buy a 50 year old rifle cash & carry
just like those other 40+ states do all there guns:eek: NO BLOOD RUNNING IN THE STREETS:facepalm:

winslowgirl
01-01-2013, 7:46 PM
I'm certain that it was not an arbitrary figure but was based on studies. And yet you provide no citation to the evidence upon which that certainty is based.

Could you avail us of it?

tonelar
01-01-2013, 7:52 PM
When we went from 15-10 days, there was no difference. With NICS we should have no more waiting period.

FourTenJaeger
01-01-2013, 7:56 PM
I've known a lot of people in my life who took their lives, out of friends I've had go out, Only two have used guns.

One of them bought the gun illegally, The other one stole the gun from her father.

The rest of them all OD'd, Drank themselves to death, or Hung themselves.

Where's the waiting period for alcohol?

tcrpe
01-01-2013, 7:56 PM
We need to keep guns out of he hands of criminals and crazies. We need to expand the definition of and identify crazies. Then we need thorough background checks, because they will still try to buy guns.

Box 'em up, they don't play well with others.

We all know people that need to be denied.

ifilef
01-01-2013, 8:02 PM
And yet you provide no citation to the evidence upon which that certainty is based.

Could you avail us of it?

Try to get some knowledge of the legislative process. They always cite some kind of study or studies in proposing legislation.

I did not make the law-I look upon it as a minor inconvenience and don't get riled up about it.

Take care, and good riddance!

Lone_Gunman
01-01-2013, 8:06 PM
The above is 'fodder' for the Brady campaign.

I am through with this thread!

News flash! IDGAF what the Brady's, or you think. I stated that it was my OPINION, it's also the opinion of thousands if not millions of other Americans. You can come here and spew your anti gun crap thinly disguised as "common sense", I can also come here and offer my opinion. Now to take a page from your book, "if you don't like it try to change the rules or leave".

donkin
01-01-2013, 8:12 PM
pre 1990 there was not a waiting period on rifles and shotguns in california.

http://articles.latimes.com/1990-02-16/news/mn-641_1_long-gun

if there was no waiting period were they even doing background checks on rifles/shotguns back then?

taperxz
01-01-2013, 8:13 PM
The above is 'fodder' for the Brady campaign.

I am through with this thread!

Thank You.

Nxd9ar15xcrL
01-01-2013, 8:27 PM
Holy Cow!

A conversation with a guy
+
A news story I saw this morning that related to that conversation
=
A Crap storm on Calguns

Sorry, Lessoned Learned!

sholling
01-01-2013, 8:29 PM
You have thirty guns and can't wait ten days to get number thirty one? It's a minor inconvenience. If riots hit gun sales will be suspended anyway. Woman fears for her life from abusive husband. Call social services and get out.
:troll::troll::troll:

I see you're still trolling the Brady Bunch talking points. :rolleyes:

As the OP, Thank You Donkin & Dieselpower and many others for good thought out points that get your argument across rather than trying to belittle me like a few of you have nothing better to do.

I am amazed how my original post was misconstrued into me being a left wing gun control loving fanatic... Did you look at the source of the news article? Apparently Not!!! (It's the Blaze... aka Glenn Beck)
We get enough Brady shills and trolls come through here trying to convince us that we should just surrender to their every demand that people tend to react rather firmly. :D

erik_26
01-01-2013, 8:32 PM
To the original post:

1. No waiting period for guns, instant background check.

-There are laws in place to deal with you if you mess up (i.e. threaten/hurt/kill someone... etc)

2. Clinics for folks that want to check out early in a peaceful and humane way.

-Once 18, no one should be forced to live if they don't want to. They should be able to go to a clinic, have their final arrangements made and then put to sleep.

joefrank64k
01-01-2013, 8:50 PM
Yes, a cooling off period is so bad...

12voltguy
01-01-2013, 8:58 PM
pre 1990 there was not a waiting period on rifles and shotguns in california.

http://articles.latimes.com/1990-02-16/news/mn-641_1_long-gun

if there was no waiting period were they even doing background checks on rifles/shotguns back then?

yup good old days
walk into walmart, buddy & I both buy 10-22s & go out plinking all day, I shot over 700 rds, thumb near fell off loading up those 25rd mags, LOL

was in AZ in the 1990s & was able to buy handguns in 3-5 min check till I got my CCW & then no check at all.
bought my 1st Glock at Walmart $375
here I have a CCW & multi guns still 10 day wait on all but C & R rifles:facepalm:

myk
01-01-2013, 8:58 PM
Was there a major problem before? Nope, there were a few incidents but there will always be a few incidents. With over 6 billion people in the world you can't prevent every act of evil or desperation. The original 10 day wait was for your background to clear, with today's instant background checks it is no longer needed but anti's justify it as a cooling off period in order to make it more difficult to buy a gun.

Winner winner, chicken dinner!

tom kratman
01-01-2013, 9:01 PM
Before accepting any restrictions, you have to realize that the ultimate goal is to disarm us. This is plain from the history of gun control around the world and plain throughout the history of mankind. Any of the anti-gun nuts who claim otherwise are liars or fools or both. Thus, any restriction you accept, however "reasonable" sounding, is just establishing a base for the next set of restrictions...registrations...and ultimately confiscation. Thus no restriction (barring nukes, bugs and gas; yes, there's a principled reason for restricting those) can be accepted. Ever.

That really ****ty things happen because of that is an insurance premium, something we pay to ensure that we have the means of revolution, which - perhaps counterintuitively, if you're a leftist - means revolution is less likely.

I invite your attention to: http://www.tomkratman.com/rant2ndamend.html

It's old but still basically on point. And, yes, as a matter of fact I _am_ the last guy to get the very anti-gun ABA to publish a pro-Second Amendment article.

Saw this story:

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/pastors-wife-buys-gun-from-tx-gun-shop-and-shoots-herself-dead-in-the-parking-lot/

In short, a Texas pastor's wife buys a handgun and then commits suicide with it in the parking lot.

I was talking to a guy the other day and we were both fomenting the 10 day wait. Our conclusion was that for the first gun... ...ok. But what is the use after you already have your first? None!

By all means I am not for more gun laws (and california already has a 10 day jail time), but I can see a use for it... but maybe 2 - 3 days?

(Sorry if this is a dup, but I searched around for it without finding it)

donkin
01-01-2013, 9:12 PM
looks like there was a bill recently in california to try and lower the waiting period from 10 days to 72 hours. http://www.govtrack.us/states/ca/bills/2011-2012/sb1569

Nxd9ar15xcrL
01-01-2013, 9:21 PM
Before accepting any restrictions, you have to realize that the ultimate goal is to disarm us. This is plain from the history of gun control around the world and plain throughout the history of mankind. Any of the anti-gun nuts who claim otherwise are liars or fools or both. Thus, any restriction you accept, however "reasonable" sounding, is just establishing a base for the next set of restrictions...registrations...and ultimately confiscation. Thus no restriction (barring nukes, bugs and gas; yes, there's a principled reason for restricting those) can be accepted. Ever.

That really ****ty things happen because of that is an insurance premium, something we pay to ensure that we have the means of revolution, which - perhaps counterintuitively, if you're a leftist - means revolution is less likely.

I invite your attention to: http://www.tomkratman.com/rant2ndamend.html

It's old but still basically on point. And, yes, as a matter of fact I _am_ the last guy to get the very anti-gun ABA to publish a pro-Second Amendment article.

I'm confused on the "Before accepting any restrictions...." The 2A is my and others constitutional right, AND the 10 day wait is the law of the land. I completely agree that they are trying to take away the 2A one restriction at a time. But other than voting for the other side (that is working so well in Cali) putting my money where my beliefs are, NRA, SFA, & Calguns. I still have to accept the law of the land and that law makes me wait 10 days, limits where and what to carry, and how many and when I can buy. If I don't accept that, I go to jail and loose all my rights to the 2A. ... Then I guess the problem is solved :facepalm:

trevorlc
01-01-2013, 9:33 PM
I personally don't support suicide but its not my place to tell someone else if they should live or die. (Except if they are threatening my or my loved ones life(s).)

I can sorta see why people might think its a good idea, but as other have said after you already own guns what is it doing at that point?

I'd be curious to know, how many instances (pre-waiting period, or states with no wait) where someone actually buys a firearm and uses it within the first couple days to commit suicide or use the firearm to commit a crime and how those numbers compare to general firearms sales trends. I tried looking to see if people who support waiting periods had any statistical data on the matter didn't find anything that seemed solid though... Has anyone ever been able to illustrate that waiting periods are/not effective?

JoshuaS
01-01-2013, 10:09 PM
The 10 day waiting period only has a rational basis for a first time handgun or longgun buyer. Already own one? One could always dream up some hypothetical...Bob wants to off himself, his gun is broken, so he is buying a new one to do the job. But the law is supposed to me (if it is really ordered to the actual common good) for the case that is always or for the most part, not for the exceptional to the extreme.

I suppose someone could claim they do a different more "rigorous" background check that takes time...that would be the only logic behind it for someone who was sincere about the whole thing. For most gun owners it is just an unnecessary pain in the butt, ranging from a minor inconvenience, to a heavy one.

ISTM if you have complete the "more rigorous background check"(if it is indeed even that) & 10 day waiting period for your first gun, already own a gun, and are cleared by NICS, hard to argue any rational basis for a 10 day period.

I don't think it is the most important law to have changed. Personally, my top picks for laws to undo in California are the "good cause" for a CCW and the magazine limit. Add to that the handgun roster and the AWB. I would be happy even abolishing just the first part of the AWB, the ban by listed receiver. Clearly as they cannot add new lowers (without the legislature acting and even then with grandfathering), and the only essential difference between an OLL and an "assault weapon" is the marking, the law serves no rational purpose, even from the perspective of someone who, with a sincere motivation*, wants to ban AR-15s. The only reason to keep it is to aggravate gun owners and to hold as precedent that it can be done.


*Sincere and wrong are fully compatible.

sholling
01-01-2013, 10:18 PM
I'm confused on the "Before accepting any restrictions...." The 2A is my and others constitutional right, AND the 10 day wait is the law of the land. I completely agree that they are trying to take away the 2A one restriction at a time. But other than voting for the other side (that is working so well in Cali) putting my money where my beliefs are, NRA, SFA, & Calguns. I still have to accept the law of the land and that law makes me wait 10 days, limits where and what to carry, and how many and when I can buy. If I don't accept that, I go to jail and loose all my rights to the 2A. ... Then I guess the problem is solved :facepalm:
You have no obligation to accept an unconstitutional law - only to obey it until it's overturned in the courts or repealed.

Nxd9ar15xcrL
01-01-2013, 10:19 PM
Along the lines of why a CCW has to wait 10 days: So what if your a teacher like my Wife, or myself that is a licensed EMT? We both have to go through the LiveScan Process with the Sheriffs office. Why do we have to wait?

No rhyme or Reason.

Nxd9ar15xcrL
01-01-2013, 10:31 PM
You have no obligation to accept an unconstitutional law - only to obey it until it's overturned in the courts or repealed.

"It depends upon what the meaning of the word is means. If is means is, and never has been, that's one thing. If it means, there is none, that was a completely true statement." - Clinton

Oh wait, that's a different word conundrum. You mean: I may not like it, but I gotta live by it. Exactly.

katokahn99
01-01-2013, 11:24 PM
Most people OD on drugs, few kill themselves with a gun...so the 10 day wait isnt justified by suicide. You are punishing the many for the acts of a few.

There was several people arrested last night for drunk driving, should we install a breath analyzer in your car now?

Isn't Obama already pushing this as a standard for the auto industry?

The wait period is unjustifiable and shouldn't be there anyway. So she committed suicide with her new gun; better that than not getting the gun and doing something that takes someone else with her--like driving into oncoming traffic. The real issue is the underlying mental health issue.

The problem with the mental health aspect of this is that even IF she was being seen by a professional for her issues, would it have flagged in the NICS check?

bwiese
01-02-2013, 12:04 AM
Gene and I have discusssed this here quite a few times.

1. There is some data out there showing at least some minor reduction in suicides due to some waiting period for a 1st-time buyer. Enough so such that a broad waiting period challenge likely won't fly.

2. The waiting period to fight - and CGF/SAF is doing precisely this - is the SECOND-thru-Nth waiting periods. There's no rationale for blocking those: WTF good does making someone like me - who owns NNN guns *already* - wait 10 days?

Implementation of such a fix for a waiting-period-state like CA would revolve around something like having a COE and owning a gun and/or having some sort of "gun ownership card" that *reflects* but does not *license* gun ownership. [Current DOJ DROS records do NOT reflect actual gun ownership - besides usu DOJ inaccuracy zoo, DROS records just reflect more of a "request to buy" than "actual delivery" of a firearm.]

EM2
01-02-2013, 6:42 AM
Holy Cow!

A conversation with a guy
+
A news story I saw this morning that related to that conversation
=
A Crap storm on Calguns

Sorry, Lessoned Learned!



Meh, don't worry about it.

These kinds of discussions, no matter if others get riled up, are actually very good for the community in general.
I find these discussions challenging as well as informative and they serve to improve my understanding of and ability to articulate my own opinions of gun control.
Keep em coming. :)

tom kratman
01-02-2013, 7:01 AM
Without wanting to get into Clintonesque, what the meaning of is is bull puckey, accepting has different connotations. In the original post and some subsequent ones, the implication was that we should accept and even get behind certain "reasonable" restrictions. That's the sense in which I use "before accepting." IOW, NO, we should NOTINANYCASENEVERNOHOWNOWAYNOTEVER get behind and support any restrictions at all. They are all (barring bugs, nukes, and gas) wrong.

As to whether you accept living under restrictions the PRC imposes on you, that's your choice. Morally and constitutionally I think there is no obligation, but as a tactical matter it's certainly better than being made non-anal retentive in one of Cali's prisons. And of course, you could always leave, which is another way of non accepting them. For me, I live in Virginia rather than the PRM, in good part because of gun laws, and despite paying slightly more in Virginia in tax than I would in the PRM. While in the PRM, visiting family, say, I have been known to break the law. I have been known to break the law somewhat ostentatiously, as a matter of fact.

I'm confused on the "Before accepting any restrictions...." The 2A is my and others constitutional right, AND the 10 day wait is the law of the land. I completely agree that they are trying to take away the 2A one restriction at a time. But other than voting for the other side (that is working so well in Cali) putting my money where my beliefs are, NRA, SFA, & Calguns. I still have to accept the law of the land and that law makes me wait 10 days, limits where and what to carry, and how many and when I can buy. If I don't accept that, I go to jail and loose all my rights to the 2A. ... Then I guess the problem is solved :facepalm:

Wherryj
01-02-2013, 9:14 AM
Saw this story:

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/pastors-wife-buys-gun-from-tx-gun-shop-and-shoots-herself-dead-in-the-parking-lot/

In short, a Texas pastor's wife buys a handgun and then commits suicide with it in the parking lot.

I was talking to a guy the other day and we were both fomenting the 10 day wait. Our conclusion was that for the first gun... ...ok. But what is the use after you already have your first? None!

By all means I am not for more gun laws (and california already has a 10 day jail time), but I can see a use for it... but maybe 2 - 3 days?

(Sorry if this is a dup, but I searched around for it without finding it)

Unfortunately for this poor soul, even a waiting period doesn't prevent such tragedies. The thought that a waiting period would prevent all suicide is to assume that suicidal people are incapable of advanced planning. Suicides often involve very long term planning. I've seen dozens of patients who were being watched or suicide due to a previous attempt. They managed to hoard up enough pills-even under direct observation-over a period of months to make their attempt.

I'm not overly averse to the current waiting periods, although they don't seem to make sense after someone already owns at least one gun.

furyous68
01-02-2013, 9:18 AM
its a minor inconvenience really. i understand it for the first firearm, but the ones after that it just gets annoying.

I agree. First purchase... wait period is reasonable. After that, you shouldn't have to wait.

While the person may still commit suicide after the wait period, it does give someone else an opportunity to possibly notice something is wrong. A family member or friend may see something, get them to talk, and could get them to seek help. Also, something could happen within those 10 days to shake them back to reality & get them to seek help themselves. Doesn't guarantee that will all happen, but it does give them a chance.

Calgunner739
01-02-2013, 10:40 AM
You have several questions you have to answer.

First, are waiting period so bad. Yes they are. They serve to restrict lawful gun owners from buying firearms.

Second, should someone be allowed to end their life. Yes they should. It's their life. Do I agree with suicide? No, I don't. But who are we to decide what is right for someone else.

Third, how can you honestly say that it is ok to restrict the rights of everyone because of someone. This is the same thing that happens with every other gun rights infringement. It would have saved this person. Let's take it one step further. Sandy Hook. Let's hypothetically say a ban would have stopped that. It would also allow violent crime to increase substantially as people have no way to protect themselves. Is my wife's life, worth less than those children's? or any victim of a mass shooting? If it is, then what's the ratio? 10 adults to 1 kid. i.e. if a law saves 1 kid it is worth allowing 10 adults to be the victim of violent crime.

In the end, we can't protect everyone from themselves and from everyone else. If someone wants to commit suicide and is willing to buy a gun to do it, nothing is going to stop them. Freedom is not free and it is not without a cost. Some see that cost as too high. They should move to another country (not directed at anyone in particular) so they feel safer with less freedom.

That is a well put argument. And saved for reference. :D

xounlistedxox
01-02-2013, 12:05 PM
This story really surprising coming from a person that lives in NAPA. :rolleyes:

The "cooling off period" infringes upon our rights. It's never more evident when you or someone else may be in need of a firearm for your/their protection.

In 2007 my home was burglarized. At the time I had 11 firearms that were stolen. All of my handguns were in a CA Approved Safe that was bolted to my floor. Long guns were in a wood gun cabinet always covered with a blanket on the inside of the cabinet. The burglars ripped the small safe off of my floor and took it. This safe weighed over 200 lbs with everything in it. They wound up missing one of the rifles in the gun cabinet(mini 14), but it was tucked all the way in the corner under the blanket, so I didn't notice it right away. It wouldn't have made much difference anyway since all of my magazines for it were in the small safe that was stolen.

At this point I was under the impression that all of my firearms were stolen since I had not yet found the mini 14. Since it was obvious that whomever stole them knew where I lived I felt I was in great danger with no way to protect myself from my own firearms(stolen were 3 sks', 2 AR's, taurus model 85 .38, walther p22, 1911, winchester model 1300 defender 12 ga, glock 19, & a beretta bobcat in .25).

Most of what you see here was stolen:
http://i415.photobucket.com/albums/pp240/xounlistedxox/firearms/all.jpg

At this point I contacted anyone/everyone I could to see if there was any way I could get around the 10 day wait, so that I could effectively protect myself against these people who stole all of my firearms as well as anyone else who might want to do me harm. DOJ, Local Police, Sheriff etc all said No, that I must go through the waiting period in order to obtain any new firearms.

The people who stole my firearms didn't have to wait 10 days. Police took nearly 3 hours to respond to my burglary call. This was after my neighbor had already called them more than an hour before when he saw them breaking into my home. Then he called the Police again when they were stealing my car. They stole my other car after the initial break in, taking the safe elsewhere, finding the keys for it, then they came back and took my car! The officer that showed up was a Community Service Officer. She didn't even have a firearm.

Yes a "cooling off period" is bad in the modern age where background checks nearly instantly come back. Even a live scan background check is typically back in less than an hour. Everything else moves up with the modern age. Waiting periods should only be as long as it takes for your background check to come back.

OleCuss
01-02-2013, 4:54 PM
I'm with you on the idea that a waiting period should be nearly nonexistent. But I also accept the Bill and Gene assessment that at this time it is likely non-productive to sue to end the first waiting period.

BTW, is anyone else a bit befuddled by what appears to be the relative lack of interest in property crimes by LEAs? There seems to be a very slow response to almost any situation other than trying to stop a known crime happening with firearms (or legitimate self-defense).

A year or so ago I reported an apparently stolen vehicle parked on the street near my house. When the LEOs finally showed up they did a quick inspection but there was minimal to no actual investigation. The concern appeared to mostly be to identify the owner so that they could come and get the vehicle.

HondaMasterTech
01-02-2013, 6:23 PM
A "waiting period " is an unconstitutional violation of your 2nd amendment right to keep and bear arms. Nobody would stand for a "waiting period" to exercise their right to free speech or freedom to practice religion. The 2nd amendment is no less of a god given right.

To answer your question, yes you're damn right it's so bad.

bubbapug1
01-02-2013, 8:18 PM
if you're willing to off yourself in a public parking lot, no waiting period will save you. And you're right, there is absolutely no logical reason that there should be a waiting period for existing firearms owners. Political theater with the added bonus of adding another layer of bureaucratic inconv
enience to discourage gun purchasing.

I think you are wrong on the first point. If you are thinking about offing yourself in the parking lot or killing a classroom of kids a cooling off period is just what you need to possibly get some help.

As to your second point, I agree, no waiting period for the second gun...but that will cost all of us a lot of money on impulse buys!

Third point is spot on. The laws are already draconian enough, adding more steps to the process actually encourges folks to deal outside the system.

Nxd9ar15xcrL
01-02-2013, 8:43 PM
A "waiting period " is an unconstitutional violation of your 2nd amendment right to keep and bear arms. Nobody would stand for a "waiting period" to exercise their right to free speech or freedom to practice religion. The 2nd amendment is no less of a god given right.

To answer your question, yes you're damn right it's so bad.

I'm not so sure your right about not standing for a waiting period to practice religion...

jamesob
01-02-2013, 8:46 PM
All that means is her suicide would have happened a few days later.

winslowgirl
01-02-2013, 8:56 PM
Gene and I have discusssed this here quite a few times.

1. There is some data out there showing at least some minor reduction in suicides due to some waiting period for a 1st-time buyer. Enough so such that a broad waiting period challenge likely won't fly.

Yes, I am less than convinced of this. Not doubting you, but the conclusions of such studies. Can you provide guidance to an original source for those studies referenced during consideration of legislation that gave us the original CA waiting period, I'm having difficulty finding anything? Were there any?

If the original 15 day figure and the current 10 day figure for the waiting period were not derived with legislative reference to any verified data on the effect on the frequency of suicides, would ANY study findings one way or another still be a consideration in any 2A or other challenge to the constitutionality of the law?

There is of course the oft cited study by University of Maryland's David McDowell, the well regarded gun-control advocate who concluded that, “ . . waiting periods have no influence on either gun homicides or gun suicides.” http://www.hoboes.com/pub/Firearms/Data/Crime/Evaluation%20of%20Maryland-CDC/


Intuitively, I can well believe that a cooling off period before completing purchase of a FIRST firearm might indeed lower the risk of suicide, but my intuition and $2.50 will buy you cup of coffee (depending on zip code).

So far I have not found verifiable evidence that indicates requiring waiting periods for the purchase of firearms has any measurable affect on the frequency of suicides. Still looking . .

Past the headlines, the devil is in the detail with these sort of studies generally, the majority which seem to be poorly constructed and designed to produce a predetermined outcome that furthers the interests of a particular lobby. That is, they are instruments of propaganda, not illumination.

kantstudien
01-02-2013, 10:49 PM
It's not a "cooling off" period, it's 240 hours for CA DOJ to do their "job" and determine whether or not you are eligible to own a firearm.

damoni
01-02-2013, 10:57 PM
So what you're saying is that a woman living in fear of an abusive or murderous ex should just go ahead and take a few more beating or just die while waiting out her 10 days? And the small business owner watching neighbor business burn during riots should wait 10 days? And the father that can't afford to keep a gun collection should remain helpless to protect his family for the 1st 10 days of the next riots or in the face of gang threats? There is no moral justification for making any US citizen wait 10 days to enjoy their rights.

So how about a cooling off period requiring you (and "journalists") to sit out a 10 day cooling off period between having a thought and putting voice to it? You know, to give time to think it through and change your mind. :rolleyes:

Bwuahahahahaha! Well said!!

Meplat
01-03-2013, 1:56 PM
People die all the damned time in their homes so I highly doubt that's merely for any common death. But, I have no reason not to doubt you and if I get the time, I'll look up the full details.

But I can guarantee you this; real estate brokers are NOT following that law on an average of 99.9% of the time.

So in the event of that law is exactly as you say, it's even more useless than a 10-day waiting period!

They were following that law a few years ago when I was in the business. It doesn’t say you have to make a big deal about it, as I recall it is a checkbox on the disclosure statement and most salesmen cruise by it in a low key, matter of fact, way. And, of course, if the seller chooses to not make it known to the agent……

I think you will find that most people who die of natural causes these days die in hospitals or some other care facility. Actually, if all the other terms are right a simple natural death is not a deal breaker for most people. Something grisly and notorious, like a Dahmer or a Gacy sure would be.

SDgarrick
01-03-2013, 1:58 PM
if not for firearms, she would have offed herself some way or another.

"if the comet didn't kill the dinosaurs, would they still be here? no, something else would have got them."

Meplat
01-03-2013, 3:45 PM
As the OP, Thank You Donkin & Dieselpower and many others for good thought out points that get your argument across rather than trying to belittle me like a few of you have nothing better to do.

I am amazed how my original post was misconstrued into me being a left wing gun control loving fanatic... Did you look at the source of the news article? Apparently Not!!! (It's the Blaze... aka Glenn Beck)

I have been around suicides and if they want to do, then they will find a way to do it... some like taking pills, wrists, etc, are not so irreversible as a gun shot to the head. And thank God she only did herself in and not someone on the interstate! I new someone in high school that ended it driving head on into a 8' dia tree.

I am not so sure that any gun stores are going to be open during a riot going on. What is the gun store going to sell guns to both sides and the both go out and shoot each other... I would think a better defense would be to be prepared before hand, getting the gun at the minute you need it... kinda a poor way to prepare.The only thing I am going to say about a gun in a household with an abusive husband is that do you want a household with a husband beating the wife to have a gun in it? (And no, there is no law that will ever stop this!)

Yes, there are only a hand full of cases that a waiting period would solve a crime, but by far and away the waiting period does nothing.

Poor people have poor ways. events can change quickly. maybe it started out as a choice between a shotgun and groceries and turned into a dead families don't need groceries decision. there are people who have to make those kinds of decisions some times.

Ruel number one; marry someone who is smart enough to not shoot you unless you need shooting. Ruel number two; if you mess up ruel one, make sure you have a gun. Now! Not ten days from now.

ZombieZoo
01-03-2013, 3:50 PM
If there was decent service at the DMV and other Govt offices I'd say maybe "OK".

Accept that the law allows for loaning guns in 'an emergency' like for protection.

I might be OK with an extra, extra "instant background" check fee of $25 if you want to walk out with the gun and Govt wants to make sure you aren't a wanted felon, or just got RO etc.

Maybe a one time check, then you are cleared unless something comes up and anyone with a conviction, RO, etc gets their e-file marked.

furyous68
01-03-2013, 3:55 PM
Most of what you see here was stolen:
http://i415.photobucket.com/albums/pp240/xounlistedxox/firearms/all.jpg


Off topic.. but wouldn't all 3 of those SKS's land you in jail? They all have detachable mags. ;)

Meplat
01-03-2013, 3:56 PM
People who vote need to have a background check to see if they are mentally competent to vote - end rant

You may have stumbled onto something here! I think progressives need to wait until ten days after the poles close.

MDK
01-03-2013, 3:58 PM
So what you're saying is that a woman living in fear of an abusive or murderous ex should just go ahead and take a few more beating or just die while waiting out her 10 days? And the small business owner watching neighbor business burn during riots should wait 10 days? And the father that can't afford to keep a gun collection should remain helpless to protect his family for the 1st 10 days of the next riots or in the face of gang threats? There is no moral justification for making any US citizen wait 10 days to enjoy their rights.

So how about a cooling off period requiring you (and "journalists") to sit out a 10 day cooling off period between having a thought and putting voice to it? You know, to give time to think it through and change your mind. :rolleyes:
I could not have said it better.

Meplat
01-03-2013, 5:35 PM
If everyone was of a right mind, they would not shoot themselves or others, without reason or justification. The wait period is a reasonable restriction on obtaining a firearm -a time to 'cool-off' if you will. Don't waste your time arguing about it here-it's not going away in this State. Move somewhere else into a so-called 'Free State' if you don't like it here.

I was born here. I’m 7th generation, the Forty-niners were newcomers to my ancestors, one of which was a captain in command of Co. “C” of the California militia, he had two sons who were enlisted men in the unit; one of which was also my ancestor. From the pay records we found we learned that many Latinos were also in Co. “C”, it was an integrated company. They all fought in the bear flag revolt.

We shed our blood for this chunk of real estate we call California, and we will do it again if need be, you can bug out or give in if you want. I will stay and fight.
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