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View Full Version : Buying a RAW AK47 SA 85M... How to make it legal before transfer?


DrDavid
12-30-2012, 6:21 PM
Yes, it breaks my heart to modify a RAW AK, but, I can't resist the price :)

My understanding is that I could 1) make it featureless by adding a kydex grip so it no longer has a pistol grip, then I can use 30-round magazines from the late 80's/90's, or 2) add a bullet button, but I'd then need to use 10-round magazines only; but I can keep the pistol grip.

Am I correct? Are there any other ways to transfer the gun and keep it's RAW status?

BTW, here's the gun: https://www.icloud.com/photostream/#A25qXGF1FKMt9

WTSGDYBBR
12-30-2012, 6:22 PM
Remove the pistol grip off the riffle total legal from there.

Librarian
12-30-2012, 6:27 PM
To sell/transfer it in CA, it must be made into non-AW condition (presuming not a 'named' gun), AND it must be un-registered.

And, featureless may indeed use 11+ mags, if you possessed them in CA prior to Jan 1 2000.

DrDavid
12-30-2012, 7:34 PM
To sell/transfer it in CA, it must be made into non-AW condition (presuming not a 'named' gun), AND it must be un-registered.

And, featureless may indeed use 11+ mags, if you possessed them in CA prior to Jan 1 2000.
So, just to confirm.. There is no way to transfer the RAW status at all? Also, what happens if we make it featureless and/or add the BB and transfer it without un-registering it? Is not un-registering it an issue if it complies with existing laws?

Ron-Solo
12-30-2012, 7:38 PM
AW status can NOT be transferred. (with very few rare exceptions) As long as it is a registered AW, it can not be tranferred to a private individual. It must be de-registered by the owner, then made featureless or CA compliant before it can be transferred.

Once de-registered, it can never be reregistered.

dieselpower
12-30-2012, 7:46 PM
then it can NEVER be an AW again. Its NOT worth it man... don't do it. The cash flow is a temporary thing... the RAW status is forever.

DrDavid
12-30-2012, 7:54 PM
then it can NEVER be an AW again. Its NOT worth it man... don't do it. The cash flow is a temporary thing... the RAW status is forever.
He has to sell; he's moving out of the country. So, it's either un-register and sell (apparently), or send it out of state (which wouldn't keep it as a RAW in CA anyways), as it would be sold to someone else....

So, yeah, I feel bad for un-registering a RAW (well, getting him to unregister the RAW), but, if anyone can tell me how to get around the un-registering, believe me.. I'm all ears!

G-forceJunkie
12-30-2012, 8:09 PM
Does he never plan on comming back? He could just store it while he is out of country.

DrDavid
12-30-2012, 8:15 PM
Does he never plan on comming back? He could just store it while he is out of country.
Nope.. He's leaving. He may be back for trips; but never to live AFAIK...

And, frankly, I can't turn down the price :)

bwiese
12-30-2012, 9:19 PM
We will assume the RAW is a Category 3 (by features) RAW and not a Category 1 or 2 (banned by name) RAW.
Cat and Cat 2 RAWs cannot be converted to non-AWs unless receiver is swapped out.
.
Original RAW owner should take Category 3 gun and convert to a non-RAW configuration first. That means either
"featureless" or using a BulletButton-style etc. maglock. Verify that the maglock indeed functions well - with a
10-ROUND OR LESS MAGAZINE. (Don't accept the hicaps except as disassembled parts; hicaps cannot be used
in BulletButton maglocked semiauto centerfire rifles anyway.)
.
If and only if the above operations are complete and verified OK, should the RAW owner contact CA DOJ Firearms
Bureau and try to deregister the RAW - there should be a form. Note that the "No Longer In Possesion" form is not
really accurate for this situation - as you'd still be possessing the *gun*, just not the *RAW*.
.
The owner will likely be queried as to the measures taken - and there is some small but nonzero risk (depending
on locale etc.) that DOJ agents may request/require gun inspection before deregistering. If so, ask to bring gun to
their local DOJ facility.

DOJ is sometimes running narco agents in gun matters who have even a lower competency level than average to
this organization.

Under NO CONDITIONS should the DOJ agent be allowed to enter owner's residence. Instead, if necessary, such
inspection should be done in the side yard, back yard or in garage with a locked entry-to-house door. All house
doors should be locked. DOJ agents have been known to be pushy to try to gain entry. All gun safes should be
locked, and of course other things in one's life that might cause legal 'issues' - either state or local - should not
be present. Literate witnesses with clean backgrounds are helpful.
.

Once de-registration is acknowledged in writing, then the PPT process can be run thru a local FFL who understands EBRs.
.
Gawd kills kittens everytime RAWs are deregistered, destroyed or moved outta CA. We need the RAW database to continue
to be well-populated. The individual could move his gun with him outside of CA and let the registration status ride in the CA
database - won't harm anyone, even if he sells the gun outside CA (thru FFL).

DrDavid
12-30-2012, 11:00 PM
Gawd kills kittens everytime RAWs are deregistered, destroyed or moved outta CA. We need the RAW database to continue
to be well-populated. The individual could move his gun with him outside of CA and let the registration status ride in the CA
database - won't harm anyone, even if he sells the gun outside CA (thru FFL).

Thank you for the info.. Believe me, I don't want to kill kittens. However, he's moving to a different country, for good, and he can not import the gun into the country he's moving to.

So, here's the question.... If we simply don't un-register the gun, but do the DROS transfer without un-registering the gun (and of course, I never do anything that would make it an assault rifle, i.e keep a bullet button on it and/or make it featureless), will that cause huge issues for me? For him? Basically, leave it registered, but just treat it as if it WAS unregistered? That would keep the database populated.. No?

DROS of a long gun doesn't use the gun's serial number -- so, how would anyone possibly know it wasn't unregistered? and, of course, since I'll be treating it as IF it WAS unregistered, wouldn't that work?

Or, am I just trying to cause problems for myself? :-/

FrankG
12-30-2012, 11:26 PM
Can't even lend a raw to another person... So if caught with it I do believe it is a felony as far as I know. Don't quote me but I'm pretty sure on this.

bwiese
12-30-2012, 11:34 PM
Can't even lend a raw to another person... So if caught with it I do believe it is a felony as far as I know. Don't quote me but I'm pretty sure on this.

Please don't jump in the middle of a discussion unless you're rationally informed.

Librarian
12-30-2012, 11:37 PM
Thank you for the info.. Believe me, I don't want to kill kittens. However, he's moving to a different country, for good, and he can not import the gun into the country he's moving to.

So, here's the question.... If we simply don't un-register the gun, but do the DROS transfer without un-registering the gun (and of course, I never do anything that would make it an assault rifle, i.e keep a bullet button on it and/or make it featureless), will that cause huge issues for me? For him? Basically, leave it registered, but just treat it as if it WAS unregistered? That would keep the database populated.. No?

DROS of a long gun doesn't use the gun's serial number -- so, how would anyone possibly know it wasn't unregistered? and, of course, since I'll be treating it as IF it WAS unregistered, wouldn't that work?

Or, am I just trying to cause problems for myself? :-/

Problems.

You do the transfer, and that goes undetected.

Later some nice officer has a reason to run the number of the rifle. Returned info says it's an 'assault weapon' registered to Bob Smith. You, however, are Davy Jones. "Mr Jones, how did you get Mr Smith's rifle?", I suspect, would be the beginning of an arduous conversation, resulting in some free benefits from the public servants - the use of some pretty metal bracelets, and a ride in a publicly owned vehicle, and free food and lodging for a time. Even free clothes and medical care! If things worked out, you might even be reunited with Bob, who will experience the same benefits.

thedrickel
12-30-2012, 11:39 PM
Brings up an interesting scenario - what if somebody sold a RAW out of state and never unreg'd it, and an FFL or later private party removed the features and shipped it back to CA later, unknowing of its former RAW status? The new owner could get ****ed if found with it?

bwiese
12-30-2012, 11:41 PM
So, here's the question.... If we simply don't un-register the gun, but do the DROS transfer without un-registering the gun (and of course, I never do anything that would make it an assault rifle, i.e keep a bullet button on it and/or make it featureless), will that cause huge issues for me? For him? Basically, leave it registered, but just treat it as if it WAS unregistered? That would keep the database populated.. No?

I am unclear if the PPT transfer process might run across this item in the AFS database. [DOJ poor data quality might block this even if it SHOULD pop up.]

Any traffic stop or AFS inquiry by the new owner - you - will likely land you in drama: even though the gun is legal, it may still show up in AFS assigned to Bob Seller instead of Dr. Dave Buyer. I can see a weekend stay in an orange jumpsuit.

While I am generally for leaving the CA DOJ RAW database in 'unclear tatters' for guns no longer in state - lawdy knows the DOJ database admin and data entry quality is sub-par - it's best that in this instance it's cleared so you don't have drama, bail, etc.


DROS of a long gun doesn't use the gun's serial number -- so, how would anyone possibly know it wasn't unregistered? and, of course, since I'll be treating it as IF it WAS unregistered, wouldn't that work?

For now, yes. But cops run long guns all the time and this gun WILL come up on AFS as registered to someone else, and as an AW. The cop likely will not be able to figure out RAW Cat3 vs non-AW etc intricacies and will also infer illegal transfer.


Or, am I just trying to cause problems for myself? :-/

I am aggressive as hell and don't mind confrontations in my own personal sphere for upcoming 'test' matters, but this adds unexpected drama and really won't help any cases going forward anyway (should you be thinking that way). You don't need to buy yourself trouble wholesale.

Please follow my outline.

Ron-Solo
12-30-2012, 11:42 PM
If the gun is still registered as a AW, and you are stopped with it and they run the serial number, it will come back to the person that registered it. You could be arrested for unlawful possession of an AW.

As Bwise said, don't try to do a PPT until the deregistration is complete. The potential legal liability in this situation is great, and then it would no longer be such a deal.

bwiese
12-30-2012, 11:44 PM
Brings up an interesting scenario - what if somebody sold a RAW out of state and never unreg'd it, and an FFL or later private party removed the features and shipped it back to CA later, unknowing of its former RAW status? The new owner could get ****ed if found with it?


Yes. Now THAT could generate some "fun" ;-)

DrDavid
12-31-2012, 12:04 AM
Problems.

You do the transfer, and that goes undetected.

Later some nice officer has a reason to run the number of the rifle. Returned info says it's an 'assault weapon' registered to Bob Smith. You, however, are Davy Jones. "Mr Jones, how did you get Mr Smith's rifle?", I suspect, would be the beginning of an arduous conversation, resulting in some free benefits from the public servants - the use of some pretty metal bracelets, and a ride in a publicly owned vehicle, and free food and lodging for a time. Even free clothes and medical care! If things worked out, you might even be reunited with Bob, who will experience the same benefits.
You make it sound so lovely! Free food, free lodging...

So, exactly how DOES one get it unregistered? I assume I would need to contact the DOJ (or have the seller contact them).. But, who exactly do I call? Is there a 1-800-UnReg-RAW number or something? :D

Any ideas on how long it takes to actually get it unregistered? Is it like a day? Week? Month? I'm guessing that CA loves unregistering RAW's, so I assume it's done quickly...

Supreme Court decisions that stop this nonsense can't come fast enough...

DrDavid
12-31-2012, 12:08 AM
Yes. Now THAT could generate some "fun" ;-)
Frankly, I find it a tad scary that that scenario could happen -- easily. This state make absolutely no sense to me....

bwiese
12-31-2012, 12:22 AM
He should call the DOJ Firearms Bureau main # and ask for Licensing and Permits Unit and ask clerk for AW Deregistration forms.

Again, THE AW SHOULD BE RENDERED INTO NON-AW FORM BEFORE CONTACT to eliminate risk of drama.

Also please double-check the Kasler list (Category II) of 'named' AWs. I'm pretty confident Hungarian SA85Ms are *not* listed as banned by name, but you should double -check. And you need to check what the ACTUAL make/model is on the receiver sideplate - because sometimes guns fairly generically referred to by one variant were imported under another name.

DrDavid
12-31-2012, 12:26 AM
He should call the DOJ Firearms Bureau main # and ask for Licensing and Permits Unit and ask clerk for AW Deregistration forms.

Again, THE AW SHOULD BE RENDERED INTO NON-AW FORM BEFORE CONTACT to eliminate risk of drama.

Also please double-check the Kasler list (Category II) of 'named' AWs. I'm pretty confident Hungarian SA85Ms are *not* listed as banned by name, but you should double -check. And you need to check what the ACTUAL make/model is on the receiver sideplate - because sometimes guns fairly generically referred to by one variant were imported under another name.

I posted photos, and I can't find any markings other than those I posted. So, unless it's hiding on me, and it IS on the list of banned guns, I'm pretty sure it's just banned based on features... Of course, I'd always love a second set of eyeballs: https://www.icloud.com/photostream/#A25qXGF1FKMt9 has the photos.

angelocris
12-31-2012, 12:34 AM
Under NO CONDITIONS should the DOJ agent be allowed to enter owner's residence. Instead, if necessary, such
inspection should be done in the side yard, back yard or in garage with a locked entry-to-house door. All house
doors should be locked. DOJ agents have been known to be pushy to try to gain entry. All gun safes should be
locked, and of course other things in one's life that might cause legal 'issues' - either state or local - should not
be present. Literate witnesses with clean backgrounds are helpful.


You forgot to mention not to have any inspection in your garage or any area outside of your house (even if it is fenced off) if you live within 1000 ft of a school. Your garage is not considered part of your house even if it is attached. Firearm must be unloaded and properly locked before it leaves your property.

The Gun-Free School Zones Act (GFSZA, codified at 18 U.S.C. 922(q)) is a federal United States lawDefinitions. Info taken from wiki site. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun-Free_School_Zones_Act_of_1990

Pursuant to 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(25) the term "school zone" means—
(A) in, or on the grounds of, a public, parochial or private school; or
(B) within a distance of 1,000 feet from the grounds of a public, parochial or private school.

0nTarg3t
12-31-2012, 12:42 AM
You make it sound so lovely! Free food, free lodging...

So, exactly how DOES one get it unregistered? I assume I would need to contact the DOJ (or have the seller contact them).. But, who exactly do I call? Is there a 1-800-UnReg-RAW number or something? :D

Any ideas on how long it takes to actually get it unregistered? Is it like a day? Week? Month? I'm guessing that CA loves unregistering RAW's, so I assume it's done quickly...

Supreme Court decisions that stop this nonsense can't come fast enough...


he gave exact directions how to do it above ^^^

bwiese We will assume the RAW is a Category 3 (by features) RAW and not a Category 1 or 2 (banned by name) RAW.
Cat and Cat 2 RAWs cannot be converted to non-AWs unless receiver is swapped out.
.
Original RAW owner should take Category 3 gun and convert to a non-RAW configuration first. That means either
"featureless" or using a BulletButton-style etc. maglock. Verify that the maglock indeed functions well - with a
10-ROUND OR LESS MAGAZINE. (Don't accept the hicaps except as disassembled parts; hicaps cannot be used
in BulletButton maglocked semiauto centerfire rifles anyway.)
.
If and only if the above operations are complete and verified OK, should the RAW owner contact CA DOJ Firearms
Bureau and try to deregister the RAW - there should be a form. Note that the "No Longer In Possesion" form is not
really accurate for this situation - as you'd still be possessing the *gun*, just not the *RAW*.
.
The owner will likely be queried as to the measures taken - and there is some small but nonzero risk (depending
on locale etc.) that DOJ agents may request/require gun inspection before deregistering. If so, ask to bring gun to
their local DOJ facility.

DOJ is sometimes running narco agents in gun matters who have even a lower competency level than average to
this organization.

Under NO CONDITIONS should the DOJ agent be allowed to enter owner's residence. Instead, if necessary, such
inspection should be done in the side yard, back yard or in garage with a locked entry-to-house door. All house
doors should be locked. DOJ agents have been known to be pushy to try to gain entry. All gun safes should be
locked, and of course other things in one's life that might cause legal 'issues' - either state or local - should not
be present. Literate witnesses with clean backgrounds are helpful.
.
Once de-registration is acknowledged in writing, then the PPT process can be run thru a local FFL who understands EBRs.
.
Gawd kills kittens everytime RAWs are deregistered, destroyed or moved outta CA. We need the RAW database to continue
to be well-populated. The individual could move his gun with him outside of CA and let the registration status ride in the CA
database - won't harm anyone, even if he sells the gun outside CA (thru FFL).
12-30-2012 8:15 PM