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View Full Version : Could a school district in Ca allow a teacher to carry a concealed weapon?


cherriandscott
12-30-2012, 12:31 PM
Would it be legal for a teacher with a CCW to carry a gun? Could a school district change there policy to allow this?

Penal Code Section 626.9
a) This section shall be known, and may be cited, as the Gun-Free School Zone Act of 1995.

(b) Any person who possesses a firearm in a place that the person knows, or reasonably should know, is a school zone, as defined in paragraph (1) of subdivision (e), unless it is with the written permission of the school district superintendent, his or her designee, or equivalent school authority, shall be punished as specified in subdivision (f).

(c) Subdivision (b) does not apply to the possession of a firearm under any of the following circumstances: [...]

(4) When the person is exempt from the prohibition against carrying a concealed firearm pursuant to subdivision (b), (d), (e), or (h) of Section 12027.[...]

(l) This section does not apply to a duly appointed peace officer as defined in Chapter 4.5 (commencing with Section 830) of Title 3 of Part 2, a full-time paid peace officer of another state or the federal government who is carrying out official duties while in California, any person summoned by any of these officers to assist in making arrests or preserving the peace while he or she is actually engaged in assisting the officer, a member of the military forces of this state or of the United States who is engaged in the performance of his or her duties, a person holding a valid license to carry the firearm pursuant to Article 3 (commencing with Section 12050) of Chapter 1 of Title 2 of Part 4, or an armored vehicle guard, engaged in the performance of his or her duties, as defined in subdivision (e) of Section 7521 of the Business and Professions Code.

ke6guj
12-30-2012, 12:34 PM
if the teacher has a CCW (or any other adult with a CCW), it is legal to carry at the school, per the exemption you posted above.. now, the employment contract may not allow for it, but that is a civil issue, not a legal issue.

P5Ret
12-30-2012, 12:36 PM
Could a school district that has a no guns policy change their policy? Sure policies change all the time. Will they change them to allow it? Not likely.

Uxi
12-30-2012, 12:46 PM
That wording means that the Superintendent could authorize teachers to carry without a CCW even.

lorax3
12-30-2012, 12:52 PM
That wording means that the Superintendent could authorize teachers to carry without a CCW even.

The Superintendent could allow a teacher to be exempt from 626.9, allowing them to bring a firearm onto campus. However actually carrying concealed and loaded are separate issues.

Old_Bald_Guy
12-30-2012, 1:14 PM
You will never see this in any major urban or suburban district in CA. There's a chance that a rural district here and there might allow employees with LTC's to carry, but even then, liability is gonna be an issue, and even districts in the most gun-friendly areas are probably a lot less likely to go for this than you might think.

Anyway, there are reasons why carrying as a school employee is not a good idea. I could explicate, but I'll save the bandwidth and attention span unless the discussion goes in that direction.

Quiet
12-30-2012, 1:24 PM
Current, Federal laws [18 USC 922 (q)(2)(B)(ii)] and CA laws [PC 626.9(l)] allows for this.

What's stopping it from happening for teachers/school administrators in CA, is school policies (legal to do so, but can be unemployed if done).

So, the school district's policy needs to change.
Which, I believe, would need to be done by the school district's board of supervisors.


18 USC 922
(q)(2)(A) It shall be unlawful for any individual knowingly to possess a firearm that has moved in or that otherwise affects interstate or foreign commerce at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is a school zone.
(B) Subparagraph (A) does not apply to the possession of a firearm—
(i) on private property not part of school grounds;
(ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license;
(iii) that is—
(I) not loaded; and
(II) in a locked container, or a locked firearms rack that is on a motor vehicle;
(iv) by an individual for use in a program approved by a school in the school zone;
(v) by an individual in accordance with a contract entered into between a school in the school zone and the individual or an employer of the individual;
(vi) by a law enforcement officer acting in his or her official capacity; or
(vii) that is unloaded and is possessed by an individual while traversing school premises for the purpose of gaining access to public or private lands open to hunting, if the entry on school premises is authorized by school authorities.

CA Penal Code 626.9
(a) This section shall be known, and may be cited, as the Gun-Free School Zone Act of 1995.
(b) Any person who possesses a firearm in a place that the person knows, or reasonably should know, is a school zone, as defined in paragraph (1) of subdivision (e), unless it is with the written permission of the school district superintendent, his or her designee, or equivalent school authority, shall be punished as specified in subdivision (f).
(e) As used in this section, the following definitions shall apply:
(1) "School zone" means an area in, or on the grounds of, a public or private school providing instruction in kindergarten or grades 1 to 12, inclusive, or within a distance of 1,000 feet from the grounds of the public or private school.
(l) This section does not apply to a duly appointed peace officer as defined in Chapter 4.5 (commencing with Section 830) of Title 3 of Part 2, a full-time paid peace officer of another state or the federal government who is carrying out official duties while in California, any person summoned by any of these officers to assist in making arrests or preserving the peace while he or she is actually engaged in assisting the officer, a member of the military forces of this state or of the United States who is engaged in the performance of his or her duties, a person holding a valid license to carry the firearm pursuant to Chapter 4 (commencing with Section 26150) of Division 5 of Title 4 of Part 6, or an armored vehicle guard, engaged in the performance of his or her duties, as defined in subdivision (e) of Section 7521 of the Business and Professions Code.

Old_Bald_Guy
12-30-2012, 3:09 PM
And like I said, the districts that would even consider this are very few and far between.

sarabellum
12-30-2012, 3:10 PM
Current, Federal laws [18 USC 922 (q)(2)(B)(ii)] and CA laws [PC 626.9(l)] allows for this.

What's stopping it from happening for teachers/school administrators in CA, is school policies (legal to do so, but can be unemployed if done).

So, the school district's policy needs to change.
Which, I believe, would need to be done by the school district's board of supervisors.


18 USC 922
(q)(2)(A) It shall be unlawful for any individual knowingly to possess a firearm that has moved in or that otherwise affects interstate or foreign commerce at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is a school zone.
(B) Subparagraph (A) does not apply to the possession of a firearmó
(i) on private property not part of school grounds;
(ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license;
(iii) that isó
(I) not loaded; and
(II) in a locked container, or a locked firearms rack that is on a motor vehicle;
(iv) by an individual for use in a program approved by a school in the school zone;
(v) by an individual in accordance with a contract entered into between a school in the school zone and the individual or an employer of the individual;
(vi) by a law enforcement officer acting in his or her official capacity; or
(vii) that is unloaded and is possessed by an individual while traversing school premises for the purpose of gaining access to public or private lands open to hunting, if the entry on school premises is authorized by school authorities.

CA Penal Code 626.9
(a) This section shall be known, and may be cited, as the Gun-Free School Zone Act of 1995.
(b) Any person who possesses a firearm in a place that the person knows, or reasonably should know, is a school zone, as defined in paragraph (1) of subdivision (e), unless it is with the written permission of the school district superintendent, his or her designee, or equivalent school authority, shall be punished as specified in subdivision (f).
(e) As used in this section, the following definitions shall apply:
(1) "School zone" means an area in, or on the grounds of, a public or private school providing instruction in kindergarten or grades 1 to 12, inclusive, or within a distance of 1,000 feet from the grounds of the public or private school.
(l) This section does not apply to a duly appointed peace officer as defined in Chapter 4.5 (commencing with Section 830) of Title 3 of Part 2, a full-time paid peace officer of another state or the federal government who is carrying out official duties while in California, any person summoned by any of these officers to assist in making arrests or preserving the peace while he or she is actually engaged in assisting the officer, a member of the military forces of this state or of the United States who is engaged in the performance of his or her duties, a person holding a valid license to carry the firearm pursuant to Chapter 4 (commencing with Section 26150) of Division 5 of Title 4 of Part 6, or an armored vehicle guard, engaged in the performance of his or her duties, as defined in subdivision (e) of Section 7521 of the Business and Professions Code.

I applaud that Cherrienscott and Quiet both quoted the actual law, and identified precisely the provisions that allow ccw in gun free school zones. In this and other forums, the members bemoan the GFSZ acts as somehow stripping them of their 2A rights. The 2A community should participate actively at school site council, school board, and city council meetings/committees. The 2A should be first in line to show active concern for grieving parents of children shot by stray bullets from the drug war thugs in our towns.

There are no easy answers to our society's problems. No sound byte is a substitute for researching meaningful solutions and active participation. Since this society places little emphasis on the safety of teachers and students, and there are thugs roaming our schools, it is time to question why teachers are not allowed to defend themselves and their students. Good for you Quiet for posting this thread.

huntercf
12-30-2012, 5:33 PM
You will never see this in any major urban or suburban district in CA. There's a chance that a rural district here and there might allow employees with LTC's to carry, but even then, liability is gonna be an issue, and even districts in the most gun-friendly areas are probably a lot less likely to go for this than you might think.

Anyway, there are reasons why carrying as a school employee is not a good idea. I could explicate, but I'll save the bandwidth and attention span unless the discussion goes in that direction.

Bingo, this is why schools don't have driver's education anymore even though it is required by state law. If a district's insurance carrier found out they were allowing firearms to be carried they would jack up their rates or cancel them altogether.
The only way that a district in CA would allow it is if the parents demanded it. Too many bleeding heart, tree hugging, bunny loving, free-loading liberals in this state. Plus the large population of immigrants who came from a country where firearms are basically outlawed and the only ones with firearms are the govt and criminals and they are basically the same there.

Old_Bald_Guy
12-30-2012, 6:05 PM
Good point on the near total disappearance of driver's training, although it's not required by law. It disappeared due to a loss in state funding specifically for it back in the early 90's, and it's a decent inference that the liability issue was a major factor too. Last I checked, classroom based driver's education was still required, but many or most districts ignore the requirement in light of declining interest and demand and budgetary woes.

You lost me in your 2nd paragraph. At the risk of derailing the thread totally, I'll state that more liberals than you're aware of own guns, and some of 'em even list three of 'em on their LTC's.

OneAvgWhiteGuy
12-30-2012, 8:23 PM
In the odd chance that a school did allow it, all it would take is one student to accuse a teacher of making a threat, real or imagined, and it would be permanently repealed. Then you've got the lawsuits that would surely follow.

Old_Bald_Guy
12-30-2012, 8:43 PM
False.

Your post demonstrates that you do not understand how California school districts are insured.

Okay then. Go ahead and educate me on how school districts are insured and the sociopolitical factors that will make all of this happen (as long as your "OPSEC" won't be compromised, of course;-).

I'll be anxiously standing by, awaiting this information!!!!!!

kalalp
12-30-2012, 10:03 PM
Does anyone actually have a school employment contract that prohibits their carrying firearms who cares to share the verbiage? Is it a statewide contract imperative or is it a local option?
This is an interesting discussion. Campus carry may be closer and more prevalent than is commonly assumed, even in CA.

kalalp
12-30-2012, 10:04 PM
Does anyone actually have a school employment contract that prohibits their carrying firearms who cares to share the verbiage? Is it a statewide contract imperative or is it a local option?
This is an interesting discussion. Campus carry may be closer and more prevalent than is commonly assumed, even in CA.

huntercf
12-31-2012, 12:04 AM
School districts are parts of the state government. They are not free-standing entities, such as corporations. As such, they are self-insured. Meaning they use their normal funds (including their reserves) to pay out claims. If claims exhaust their funds, complicated fallback mechanisms involving both county offices of education (CoE) and the state department of education (CDE) come into play. They may utilize commercial insurance for convenience, but they themselves have the last word, as they are the insurance of last resort.

In many cases (perhaps all, I'm not familiar with all districts in the state) this is actually administered by the CoE, which runs the "insurance" program for the individual districts, as an administrative convenience. AFAIK, most CoE have a "risk management" department to handle this.

Therefore, decisions on which actions can and can not be insured are taken by the board of the district; not by an outside insurance carrier.

Since I work in a school district, I'll let you in on a little secret. The school district buys insurance and not just one type. The have property insurance for the buildings and grounds and they have liability insurance to cover lawsuits brought against staff. They don't dip into reserves unless they need to cover the deductible.

Kauf
12-31-2012, 12:04 AM
Not to thread jack, but for service members who are in ROTC units (MECEPS, OC's, MIDN etc), where the school they attend is their duty station, are they allowed to carry then?

huntercf
12-31-2012, 12:06 AM
Does anyone actually have a school employment contract that prohibits their carrying firearms who cares to share the verbiage? Is it a statewide contract imperative or is it a local option?
This is an interesting discussion. Campus carry may be closer and more prevalent than is commonly assumed, even in CA.

In our contract the language is vague regarding weapons altogether, basically non-existent.

Librarian
12-31-2012, 1:05 AM
The 'Annual Notification' document from Mount Diablo Unified SD - http://www.mdusd.org/personnel/Pages/default.aspx - seems an awful lot like an employee handbook; it mentions 'tobacco-free' and 'drug and alcohol free workplace', but nothing about staff and weapons.

The CSEA and MDEA contracts also seem to be silent on the topic.

I'm surprised.

Siddicken1953
12-31-2012, 1:22 AM
Really funny. Was watching the morning news and the anchor says how can we expect teachers to teach and carry a gun?? Lol. Unreal. #dufus

Old_Bald_Guy
12-31-2012, 6:40 AM
Before I read the rest of your screed, 'saw, I'll ask you to show me where I said anything about outside insurance agencies, the state, or any other entity. School districts have to consider liability. That's what I said. To suggest otherwise would be ridiculous.

Now I'll go read the rest. Stand by.

Old_Bald_Guy
12-31-2012, 6:59 AM
Okay, chainsaw. I read it. Your point is that "school districts are parts of the state government." That's a gross oversimplification, and inaccurate in many respects. Districts are funded largely by the state, fall under the aegis of the CDE and the County Office for their particular county, yeah. The school board is locally elected...bla bla bla. It's inaccurate, however, to simply state that "districts are parts of the state government."

Anyway, that's all tangential. I never said thing one about how districts insure, so I can only interpret your statements as part of some kind of straw man distraction or a result of you misreading what I actually said. What I said was this: No major urban or suburban district in this state is gonna do this. Any such district without language in its policies preventing employees from carrying will add that language the first time the issue arises; the issue has likely never been on their radar due to the paucity of LTC's in certain areas. If an issue arises, it will be quashed with a new policy.

That's my prediction. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. Show me some good data and I'll amend my model. Claiming "OPSEC" considerations doesn't add a thing to your argument. Anyone can say anything on the Internet.

EDIT: Also, one NRA cheerleader as president of the county board in a county like Santa Cruz can't do a damn thing on this issue on her own. It's a board. And the districts can and will make their own, more prohibitive policies anyway, even if the county board decided to take a hands-off approach.

tenpercentfirearms
12-31-2012, 7:18 AM
Yep, the two districts I have worked in it is perfectly legal for me to take my CCW onto campus. I can just get fired if caught. It was nice when I didn't work for Taft High, I would go onto their campus all the time to visit my wife and what not.

You betcha if I am ever at events at my child's school I don't work at I will be armed.

Old_Bald_Guy
12-31-2012, 11:49 PM
We're wandering a little afield here. My original point primarily concerned employees, and also the issue of officially allowing volunteers as a matter of policy. As far as non-employees carrying legally (LTC, off duty and retired LEO's, etc) dropping their kids off, etc, there is no legal requirement that they ask for or receive permission. I assume many just do it.

It would appear that any potential argument has fizzled. A few years ago I might have been disappointed; now I'll just say Happy New Year.

gunrun45
01-01-2013, 6:59 AM
As a CCW instructor in northern CA, I have had several teachers as students. I even have an ongoing offer that if you can bring me any notice from a supervisor at the school acknowledging your ability to carry a firearm, OC or a taser, I will give them the class for free. After posting said offer on my company facebook page I was contacted by a slew of local residents who wanted to know which teachers took my class so that they could put their students in their classrooms. No such information was disclosed by me, but it certainly warmed my heart knowing that it was positively backed by the community.

cantcme
01-01-2013, 8:19 AM
http://news.yahoo.com/gunmen-kill-5-female-teachers-pakistan-123705233.html