PDA

View Full Version : Gun store discrimination ???


da81go
12-28-2012, 8:53 PM
Hello all, i am brand new to this forum, have read it for months and learned so much that i am glad that my friend told me about Calguns.
The reason why i actually joined today is that i would like to get some feedback and advice.
I went to a store today to buy a rifle and started to fill out all the paperwork and when it came to the federal sheet i wrote in that i am not an American citizen but am a legally registered alien. I didn't get any further as the sales rep, who by the way was very friendly, stopped me and asked if i wasn't a citizen. I told him no but showed him right away my immigration documents.
He told me that it was the Managers policy not to sell to anyone that is not a citizen.
It kind'a irked me as i have been living here for almost 30 years, am in the process of getting my citizenship but up until now was never refused to buy a firearm. I have purchased numerous handguns and rifles in the past but never experienced anything like this.
Just out of curiosity.... is it even legal to refuse to sell a product to a person because they are not a citizen.
I got my pilot licence here and because i was a resident alien the process was a little bit more stringent but still, there was never any mentioning of not being able to get it.
I was just wondering what your opinion about this case is.
Looking forward to your input.
C.

Guntech
12-28-2012, 9:00 PM
"We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone"

They can tell anyone they want to hit the road, for any reason really. Maybe he was weary because of fast and furious and straw purchase deal.

JDay
12-28-2012, 9:07 PM
"We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone"

They can tell anyone they want to hit the road, for any reason really. Maybe he was weary because of fast and furious and straw purchase deal.

I thought that since having an FFL makes them an representative of the Federal Government that they were not allowed to refuse service when it came to lawful firearms transfers. A purchase is a transfer isn't it? Not to mention that discrimination is against state and federal laws.

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/nics/federal-firearms-licensees/ffl-manual

C. Lawful Aliens

Persons who are lawful non-immigrants who can verify that they have established residency in the state of purchase (or they have established a state of residence if purchasing a long gun out of state) for 90 consecutive days immediately preceding the sale and who possess a valid hunting license or who qualify under certain other exceptions may legally acquire a firearm. All aliens must provide a United States Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE)-issued alien number or a U.S. Citizenship and Immigrations Services number (A# or USCIS# ). All lawful aliens must provide 90-days proof of continuous residency and other required information prior to undergoing a NICS check. If 90-day proof of state residency or an Alien Registration number is not provided, the FFL is not authorized to contact the NICS Section or the state Point of Contact (POC) to initiate a background check.

Guitarmoto
12-28-2012, 9:12 PM
I feel like "fast and furious" may have hindered most dealers willingness to try anything they are unsure of.

SilverTauron
12-28-2012, 9:15 PM
I thought that since having an FFL makes them an representative of the Federal Government that they were not allowed to refuse service when it came to lawful firearms transfers. A purchase is a transfer isn't it? Not to mention that discrimination is against state and federal laws.

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/nics/federal-firearms-licensees/ffl-manual

The ATF places the burden for halting a suspicious transaction at the feet of the selling FFL. If the dealer feels in any way that a gun transaction isn't on the up and up they can pull the plug at their discretion.

A guy walking in with resident alien documentation screams "ATF SETUP", and knowing how the Federal government works I don't blame the dealer one bit. He'd rather lose a sale and have a pissed off customer then sell a gun and lose his license because he forgot to mark Box Z on some dumb form.

Best thing for you to do is to research the legality, find documented proof that your purchase is legal under Federal law, and bring it to an open minded FFL.

da81go
12-28-2012, 9:15 PM
so, you are saying because i have an accent he should refuse to let me purchase the gun. So basically he assumes that because i am not American i'll lie ? That's a pretty weak argument, don't you think so ? It also states that Straw Purchases are not illegal. And since i have to go through the same waiting process as everybody else to give them time to check my background ?
I didn't know what a straw purchase meant and had to look it up.

Straw purchases can be illegal when made at a federally licensed firearm dealership. If the straw purchaser of the firearm lies about the identity of the ultimate possessor of the gun, he can be charged with making false statements on a federal Firearms Transaction Record. Straw purchases of used guns are not illegal, unless the gun is used in a crime with the prior knowledge of the straw purchaser.[1]

keenkeen
12-28-2012, 9:19 PM
The ATF places the burden for halting a suspicious transaction at the feet of the selling FFL. If the dealer feels in any way that a gun transaction isn't on the up and up they can pull the plug at their discretion.

A guy walking in with resident alien documentation screams "ATF SETUP", and knowing how the Federal government works I don't blame the dealer one bit. He'd rather lose a sale and have a pissed off customer then sell a gun and lose his license because he forgot to mark Box Z on some dumb form.

Best thing for you to do is to research the legality, find documented proof that your purchase is legal under Federal law, and bring it to an open minded FFL.

OP does not need to go that far...

Just go to any competent FFL who understands the law (there are quite a few even if sometimes it does not seem like it) and give them your business.

Sorry you ran into one of the goofball FFLs, there are a handful of them out there.

da81go
12-28-2012, 9:24 PM
Oh no, he didn't have a pissed off customer that walked out the store....i bought the gun anyways cause it was tough to find anywhere else. He didn't have any problems taking my money. I just have to find a FFL to get it transferred. So your argument with rather loosing a sale to cover his *** isn't really true.

DannyInSoCal
12-28-2012, 9:25 PM
Become a citizen.

Unless you like the free health care and benefits...

JDay
12-28-2012, 9:28 PM
Oh no, he didn't have a pissed off customer that walked out the store....i bought the gun anyways cause it was tough to find anywhere else. He didn't have any problems taking my money. I just have to find a FFL to get it transferred. So your argument with rather loosing a sale to cover his *** isn't really true.

So the shop sold you the firearm but refused to transfer it to you?

mchava
12-28-2012, 9:28 PM
Da81go, I would also recommend going to another Lgs and shop there instead. I've bought many guns at different dealers and never had any issues at all. Sound to me like some one doesnt know what they are doing and are scared. oh and I am also a legal resident.

Guntech
12-28-2012, 9:29 PM
so, you are saying because i have an accent he should refuse to let me purchase the gun. So basically he assumes that because i am not American i'll lie ? That's a pretty weak argument, don't you think so ? It also states that Straw Purchases are not illegal. And since i have to go through the same waiting process as everybody else to give them time to check my background ?
I didn't know what a straw purchase meant and had to look it up.

Straw purchases can be illegal when made at a federally licensed firearm dealership. If the straw purchaser of the firearm lies about the identity of the ultimate possessor of the gun, he can be charged with making false statements on a federal Firearms Transaction Record. Straw purchases of used guns are not illegal, unless the gun is used in a crime with the prior knowledge of the straw purchaser.[1]

When we refer to "fast and furious" and straw purchases we are talking about either an individual purchasing a weapon for a party other than themselves, or a sting to try and get FFLs to knowingly sell to a person who is suspected to be doing a straw purchase. No discrimination IMO, just doing what the gov makes him do. If you felt there was discrimination blame Obama, FFLs are all weary now because of Obamas "fast and furious" program

keenkeen
12-28-2012, 9:30 PM
"We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone"

They can tell anyone they want to hit the road, for any reason really. Maybe he was weary because of fast and furious and straw purchase deal.

Well...not really. But hey, they did put up the sign.

:D

da81go
12-28-2012, 9:31 PM
The ATF places the burden for halting a suspicious transaction at the feet of the selling FFL. If the dealer feels in any way that a gun transaction isn't on the up and up they can pull the plug at their discretion.

A guy walking in with resident alien documentation screams "ATF SETUP", and knowing how the Federal government works I don't blame the dealer one bit. He'd rather lose a sale and have a pissed off customer then sell a gun and lose his license because he forgot to mark Box Z on some dumb form.

Best thing for you to do is to research the legality, find documented proof that your purchase is legal under Federal law, and bring it to an open minded FFL.

My purchase is absolutely legal under the law, i bought 4 hand guns this year with no problems. They did my background check like with everybody else.
You also said that if the dealer feels that the transaction isn't on the up and up he can pull the plug. Well, couldn't be the way i look or my accent, i am as white as the come from Austria, have been living here almost 30 years and as i mentioned above...i wasn't sweating, nervous, scared.....i just filled the space where it is required to put my L-551 in. But they didn't have any problems with taking my money, as long as i would come up with a FFL.

da81go
12-28-2012, 9:33 PM
When we refer to "fast and furious" and straw purchases we are talking about either an individual purchasing a weapon for a party other than themselves, or a sting to try and get FFLs to knowingly sell to a person who is suspected to be doing a straw purchase. No discrimination IMO, just doing what the gov makes him do. If you felt there was discrimination blame Obama, FFLs are all weary now because of Obamas "fast and furious" program



So this gun dealer is just worried about non citizens ?

da81go
12-28-2012, 9:37 PM
So the shop sold you the firearm but refused to transfer it to you?

Absolutely, but i have to find a FFL on myself that will do the transfer which is additional costs to me.
Don't believe me ? I show you the receipt anytime. Not anytime..let's wait until the gun get's to the new FFL and they can't refuse it anymore.

SilverTauron
12-28-2012, 9:37 PM
My purchase is absolutely legal under the law, i bought 4 hand guns this year with no problems. They did my background check like with everybody else.
You also said that if the dealer feels that the transaction isn't on the up and up he can pull the plug. Well, couldn't be the way i look or my accent, i am as white as the come from Austria, have been living here almost 30 years and as i mentioned above...i wasn't sweating, nervous, scared.....i just filled the space where it is required to put my L-551 in. But they didn't have any problems with taking my money, as long as i would come up with a FFL.

Look at it from their perspective.

An ordinary-looking Caucasian guy walks in , and all goes well until he busts out some non-resident paperwork.

ATF agent provocateur or legitimate customer? Obama's still President and gun ownership is in a PR crisis at the moment. I can see a dealer wanting to play it safe.

I'm biracial, so I am no stranger to discrimination. If a dealer is discriminatory you won't need to ask a gun forum for clarification. I know from experience gun shopping in deeply conservative states what true "discrimination" is like. Lets just say you won't even get to the point of filling out a 4473 if that's how the owner runs things.

JDay
12-28-2012, 9:40 PM
Absolutely, but i have to find a FFL on myself that will do the transfer which is additional costs to me.
Don't believe me ? I show you the receipt anytime. Not anytime..let's wait until the gun get's to the new FFL and they can't refuse it anymore.

I believe you, just seems like this guy is clueless.

spetsnaz
12-28-2012, 9:45 PM
just go to a different ffl

da81go
12-28-2012, 9:45 PM
Look at it from their perspective.

An ordinary-looking Caucasian guy walks in , and all goes well until he busts out some non-resident paperwork.

ATF agent provocateur or legitimate customer? Obama's still President and gun ownership is in a PR crisis at the moment. I can see a dealer wanting to play it safe.

I'm biracial, so I am no stranger to discrimination. If a dealer is discriminatory you won't need to ask a gun forum for clarification. I know from experience gun shopping in deeply conservative states what true "discrimination" is like. Lets just say you won't even get to the point of filling out a 4473 if that's how the owner runs things.

Hey, i lived in the south for a while and have some stuff seen but your argument doesn't hold up in this case as you mentioned me as a white Lilly butt boy going in there and then saying he is not a citizen and getting hosed.
They said all non citizen, Latinos, Blacks, Asians, whatever. And trust me, i like Obama just as much as most here on Calguns.
This has nothing to do with me being white, their policy is not to sell to non citizens. Well let's rephrase this...they will take your money but you just need to pick your gun up somewhere else.

JDay
12-28-2012, 9:49 PM
I guess the real question is can an FFL sell you a firearm and then refuse to file a 4473.

ConfucianScholar
12-28-2012, 9:51 PM
People commenting are trowing wild conjectures into this. I am a naturalized citizen, for years until last I bought guns and rifles filling up the forms that allow for a legal alien to purchase guns given he/she passes the background check. The FFL denying sale based on the buyer not being a citizen is incredibly ignorant and poses further restriction on gun possession than that the government demands. The FFL manager is an incompetent dullard.

Guntech
12-28-2012, 9:51 PM
Hey, i lived in the south for a while and have some stuff seen but your argument doesn't hold up in this case as you mentioned me as a white Lilly butt boy going in there and then saying he is not a citizen and getting hosed.
They said all non citizen, Latinos, Blacks, Asians, whatever. And trust me, i like Obama just as much as most here on Calguns.
This has nothing to do with me being white, their policy is not to sell to non citizens. Well let's rephrase this...they will take your money but you just need to pick your gun up somewhere else.

No you are absolutely right, their policy is to not sell to non-citizens. The point I think, and correct me if I am wrong, some of the guys are trying to make is that this is a byproduct of Obamas policies. No one, especially those in the firearms industry, want to take any "chances" with their license after seeing Obamas tactics.

becxltoo984
12-28-2012, 10:04 PM
So you have lived in the USA for 30 years and never found the time to become a US citizen ? Hummm.....:rolleyes:

JDay
12-28-2012, 10:11 PM
So you have lived in the USA for 30 years and never found the time to become a US citizen ? Hummm.....:rolleyes:

You have to be a legal resident for a minimum of 3-5 years before you can begin the naturalization process. And that can be extended depending on circumstances.

keenkeen
12-28-2012, 10:12 PM
So you have lived in the USA for 30 years and never found the time to become a US citizen ? Hummm.....:rolleyes:

He says in his OP that his is in the process of becoming a US citizen.

But what if he wasn't...Who cares, he is a LEGAL PERMANENT RESIDENT. Is that not good enough?

If you moved to Austria for work/career would you become an Austrian citizen?

It is an individuals choice to pursue citizenship or not.

frankm
12-28-2012, 10:16 PM
Post who the store is. They don't have the right to deny a permanent resident his constitutional rights. We should all know who this dirtbag is.

da81go
12-28-2012, 10:29 PM
me not being a citizen after all this years is just more proof that i have lived within the law and have been a productive member of society. If you screw up in any way only having a green card you get deported so quickly you couldn't even count to ten.
And DannyInSocal.... if i like free healthcare and benefits ? Never used them since i came to the States. You are an ignorant shmuck. I employ over 80 people, my labor costs, insurance and all the other Obama gifts that we will experience over the next 4 years. You think that is fun for me, being a small business owner in California, not knowing what is awaiting all of us at the bottom of the fiscal cliff ?

da81go
12-28-2012, 10:31 PM
Post who the store is. They don't have the right to deny a permanent resident his constitutional rights. We should all know who this dirtbag is.

Frank, i will as soon as my gun is in the other FFL's possession. I will let you know though that it is a store in North San Diego County.

frankm
12-28-2012, 10:32 PM
da81go, the owner is a dirtbag. Won't sell to citizens. Does this include the Pilipino who joins our Navy and risks his life? Besides, there are plenty of citizen-dirtbags, some he might even sell to "just because" they are citizens. What a tool.

P5Ret
12-28-2012, 10:32 PM
From what I can see here, the shop owner made a choice not to sell/transfer a firearm to someone who is not a citizen. Even though had he done so it would be a perfectly legal transaction. Can someone point to anything from ATF that requires dealers to transfer or complete a transaction to every person who can legally purchase a firearm? I do not believe that holding a FFL makes you a representative of the gov't any more than me having a driver's license makes me representative of the state gov't.

Is it discrimination or a stupid policy? Hard to say, maybe he got burned before and now chooses to err on the side of caution. Having seen a number of fraudulent green cards in Ca, some of which are pretty good by the way. I can see why some dealers may choose not to risk their business and income source.

ConfucianScholar
12-28-2012, 10:34 PM
I want to know what store this is. This is disgusting.

Guntech
12-28-2012, 10:35 PM
me not being a citizen after all this years is just more proof that i have lived within the law and have been a productive member of society. If you screw up in any way only having a green card you get deported so quickly you couldn't even count to ten.
And DannyInSocal.... if i like free healthcare and benefits ? Never used them since i came to the States. You are an ignorant shmuck. I employ over 80 people, my labor costs, insurance and all the other Obama gifts that we will experience over the next 4 years. You think that is fun for me, being a small business owner in California, not knowing what is awaiting all of us at the bottom of the fiscal cliff ?

Unless you live in SF sanctuary city, although I think that might only apply to hang bangers, you being law abiding would probably get deported for a parking ticket. We like to keep the bad ones

tcrpe
12-28-2012, 10:36 PM
Never mind.

ConfucianScholar
12-28-2012, 10:38 PM
P5ret, you say that there's lots of fake green cards in California? That's partly why the DROS goes to the government for verification and the gun not released until the check comes back clean. The FFL is substituting a back ground check with the ignorance of the manager.

NoHeavyHitter
12-28-2012, 10:43 PM
Sorry that I don't have any advice that hasn't already been mentioned, but I just wanted to say that I respect you for coming here in a legal fashion and regret that there have been so many "stings" and set-ups that a dealer would be hesitant to have your business.

Assuming that they sold the gun to you (without a DROS) you shouldn't have to pay that twice. My dealer's transfer fee is $35 which I think is average, so you should be able to find an FFL to assist you.

Librarian
12-28-2012, 10:50 PM
Oh no, he didn't have a pissed off customer that walked out the store....i bought the gun anyways cause it was tough to find anywhere else. He didn't have any problems taking my money. I just have to find a FFL to get it transferred. So your argument with rather loosing a sale to cover his *** isn't really true.

I'm sorry, this post has me very confused.

Who is 'he' who took your money?

The phrasing "I just have to find a FFL to get it transferred." suggests that 'he' is NOT an FFL - which makes me wonder how a sale could be taking place.

If this were a Private Party Transfer, the usual way that is conducted is
* seller and buyer meet at an FFL,
* do paperwork,
* leave gun with FFL for the 10-day wait, and
* THEN buyer pays seller.

If 'he' IS an FFL, starting the sale by taking your money obligates him to do 4473 and DROS - he can't legally transfer out of his inventory without the paperwork, and he certainly cannot deliver it to you without the paperwork, background check, and 10-day wait.

da81go
12-28-2012, 10:51 PM
From what I can see here, the shop owner made a choice not to sell/transfer a firearm to someone who is not a citizen. Even though had he done so it would be a perfectly legal transaction. Can someone point to anything from ATF that requires dealers to transfer or complete a transaction to every person who can legally purchase a firearm? I do not believe that holding a FFL makes you a representative of the gov't any more than me having a driver's license makes me representative of the state gov't.

Is it discrimination or a stupid policy? Hard to say, maybe he got burned before and now chooses to err on the side of caution. Having seen a number of fraudulent green cards in Ca, some of which are pretty good by the way. I can see why some dealers may choose not to risk their business and income source.

You have a good point about those real looking green cards. But they might get you a jobor into college but i bet you anything you wouldn't pass the background check to get a weapon.
I really don't know if there is anything out there that requires dealers to go through with the transaction but honestly, if they don't have a problem with taking my money at least they should offer to pay for my additional costs for the FFL. Do you have a business ? If every time i got burned would react like that i would not be open anymore.

da81go
12-28-2012, 10:56 PM
I'm sorry, this post has me very confused.

Who is 'he' who took your money?

The phrasing "I just have to find a FFL to get it transferred." suggests that 'he' is NOT an FFL - which makes me wonder how a sale could be taking place.

If this were a Private Party Transfer, the usual way that is conducted is
* seller and buyer meet at an FFL,
* do paperwork,
* leave gun with FFL for the 10-day wait, and
* THEN buyer pays seller.

The store does not sell to me because i am not a citizen, But they agreed to take my money and i have to find another FFL to get the process done.
I really can't tell you how this exactly works out as i have never been in this situation. But right now the store has my money, i paid the full amount. As soon as i find a FFL that will do the transfer, which is an additional cost to me, i have to do the background check, the 10 days and then can pick it up from the other FFL.

jeffxbr
12-28-2012, 11:03 PM
What store?why is this question so hard!

GaryV
12-28-2012, 11:06 PM
The only thing that makes any sense is that this FFL simply does not know the law (no surprise there - I've seen a lot of that). He obviously isn't doing this out of prejudice, or he'd simply refuse the sale altogether. No point in selling you the gun and making you transfer it through another FLL is he hates immigrants. But if he's afraid of losing his FFL, then that would make sense. And selling to a resident alien is perfectly legal, so being in the least suspicious, either that you are trying to make an illegal purchase, or that you are an ATF plant, makes no sense whatsoever, unless, of course, he is just completely ignorant of the law. As you noted, there are even specific spaces on the 4473 for resident alien information.

It's most likely just that this guy doesn't know anything about laws governing gun sales, other than the most standard common type of transaction he usually does, and is scared to do any other type of transfer. I've seen unbelievable degrees of ignorance from FFLs about the laws that govern their own business. Believe me, this isn't even close to the worst. It sometimes amazes me that some of them were even able to get the license in the first place, or keep it longer than a month. If you got the gun you wanted for a fair price, I would just go along with it, but point out that he needs to brush up on the laws governing transfers to non-citizens.

hoozaru
12-28-2012, 11:09 PM
I would ask for a full refund (including DROS and tax), then take my money to a different gunshop. IMHO, there is no such thing as "tough to find anywhere else."

da81go
12-28-2012, 11:13 PM
Unless you live in SF sanctuary city, although I think that might only apply to hang bangers, you being law abiding would probably get deported for a parking ticket. We like to keep the bad ones

You are not kidding there. SF, when i first came over to the States i was impressed by the City until i lived here a few years and experienced the shenanigans of Feinstein and Boxer. Nah, i rather stay down here.
Another issue that bothers me there is the BSL, banning any bully type dogs.

da81go
12-28-2012, 11:15 PM
I would ask for a full refund (including DROS and tax), then take my money to a different gunshop. IMHO, there is no such thing as "tough to find anywhere else."

Trust me, i would but i tried for a long and tough time to get what i wanted.

NytWolf
12-28-2012, 11:15 PM
The ATF places the burden for halting a suspicious transaction at the feet of the selling FFL. If the dealer feels in any way that a gun transaction isn't on the up and up they can pull the plug at their discretion.

A guy walking in with resident alien documentation screams "ATF SETUP", and knowing how the Federal government works I don't blame the dealer one bit. He'd rather lose a sale and have a pissed off customer then sell a gun and lose his license because he forgot to mark Box Z on some dumb form.

Best thing for you to do is to research the legality, find documented proof that your purchase is legal under Federal law, and bring it to an open minded FFL.

Sorry that I don't have any advice that hasn't already been mentioned, but I just wanted to say that I respect you for coming here in a legal fashion and regret that there have been so many "stings" and set-ups that a dealer would be hesitant to have your business.

Assuming that they sold the gun to you (without a DROS) you shouldn't have to pay that twice. My dealer's transfer fee is $35 which I think is average, so you should be able to find an FFL to assist you.

How exactly is it a "sting" if the transaction is legal to start with? I don't understand the logic you guys use to support the FFL? If it is up to the FFL to stop a suspicious sale of a firearm, what makes it okay to take OP's money and then force him to have another FFL do the DROS? If it is truly an illegal transaction and the federal government leaves the responsibility for the FFL to stop the transaction, why would the FFL take the risk of taking OP's money?

da81go
12-28-2012, 11:17 PM
What store?why is this question so hard!

because they are still in the possession of the gun and i really want it and not give them any reason to reverse the transaction.

NytWolf
12-28-2012, 11:19 PM
What store?why is this question so hard!

Read POST #30.

Junkie
12-28-2012, 11:20 PM
If they're doing that, I would have no problem reporting them to DOJ.

majtom94
12-28-2012, 11:21 PM
Welcome to the country - thirty years on; you can tell tensions within the country are hitting the boiling point.

So the bottom line is the FFL dealer is making a transfer to another FFL within the state of Ca in order to make the sale; and now I assume he is doing so cause he wants the sale and KNOWS there will not be a problem with another FFL that he transfer too that he has with YOU cause he doesn't know the rules.

I think that is the problem here - very bad FFL with greed for brains.

If your near Milpitas I have a good FFL for you but I think by an earlier post your down south.

tcrpe
12-28-2012, 11:24 PM
This thread is pointless.

And confusing. :shrug:

a1c
12-28-2012, 11:24 PM
A guy walking in with resident alien documentation screams "ATF SETUP", and knowing how the Federal government works I don't blame the dealer one bit.

What you just said is just completely ridiculous.

da81go
12-28-2012, 11:25 PM
Welcome to the country - thirty years on; you can tell tensions within the country are hitting the boiling point.

So the bottom line is the FFL dealer is making a transfer to another FFL within the state of Ca in order to make the sale; and now I assume he is doing so cause he wants the sale and KNOWS there will not be a problem with another FFL that he transfer too that he has with YOU cause he doesn't know the rules.

I think that is the problem here - very bad FFL with greed for brains.

If your near Milpitas I have a good FFL for you but I think by an earlier post your down south.

Exactly, you described it perfectly. The Gun store wants my money but not the risk that i might be a set-up and passes the bucket to someone else.
Yeah, i am down in San Diego County but greatly appreciate your offer.

MattyB
12-28-2012, 11:32 PM
The FFL is making the sale and leaving it to another FFL to potentially take the heat.

CYA in full effect here and the FFL may not want to take the chance. There are things in the auto repair world that are analogous to this. Modifying a currently registered emissions compliant vehicle into a race car can be a risky move as well for a shop owner. Taking the cat off and stripping out the emission equipment while that car still has plates can carry a monetary penalty that will ruin anyone's day.

The dealer may have been iffy and didnt want to lose their license and at the same time didn't want to lose a sale.

Personally, I wouldn't want to do business with an FFL that was unsure of what is and isn't legal in their business. I wouldn't want to buy heroin from a dealer that thought it was legal either as it would get us both in trouble.. << #sarcasm

OP if its a weapon that is sooo hard to find elsewhere and you have to deal with an FFL that is sketchy on selling to anyone other than naturalized citizens, go to another FFL and do the transfer. Otherwise, take your money elsewhere, you do have that right. I wouldn't call it discrimination though, thats a term used very loosely in the wrong context all too often. The FFl didnt discriminate based your accent, they did so based on your answers to the 4437.

Sakiri
12-28-2012, 11:37 PM
Become a citizen.

Unless you like the free health care and benefits...

Legal resident aliens don't get welfare usually.

They're required to have a sponsor, and that sponsor is responsible for any and all welfare the resident alien gets.. provided they even get approved for it.

I sponsored my ex husband's immigration from Canada. He could not get welfare. I could, but he could not.

Sakiri
12-28-2012, 11:40 PM
You have to be a legal resident for a minimum of 3-5 years before you can begin the naturalization process. And that can be extended depending on circumstances.

You have to have been working in the US for 5 years, as of the last information I had.

They might have changed it in the past decade. M's immigration was done in 2001.

da81go
12-28-2012, 11:47 PM
You have to have been working in the US for 5 years, as of the last information I had.

They might have changed it in the past decade. M's immigration was done in 2001.

You are right Sakiri, it is 5 years and you have to show that you didn't take advantage of any social programs.

NoHeavyHitter
12-29-2012, 2:48 AM
How exactly is it a "sting" if the transaction is legal to start with? I don't understand the logic you guys use to support the FFL? If it is up to the FFL to stop a suspicious sale of a firearm, what makes it okay to take OP's money and then force him to have another FFL do the DROS? If it is truly an illegal transaction and the federal government leaves the responsibility for the FFL to stop the transaction, why would the FFL take the risk of taking OP's money?

I was pointing out that the seller (dealer's) possible reluctance to perform a transfer may be a result of having had situations where (as a dealer) they were being set-up for revocation of their FFL / prosecution.

I cannot speak as to what the dealer's reason was for refusing to process a DROS..

CCWFacts
12-29-2012, 4:34 AM
He told me that it was the Managers policy not to sell to anyone that is not a citizen.
It kind'a irked me as i have been living here for almost 30 years, am in the process of getting my citizenship but up until now was never refused to buy a firearm.

It should irk you. Perm. residents have almost all the same rights (minus voting, jury service, certain gov't jobs and certain elected positions) that citizens have. This manager is both doing a disservice to gun owners, and losing business, and making himself vulnerable to being sued. He does not have a legal right to have a policy like that.

Mike27t
12-29-2012, 6:39 AM
A lot of ignorant people in this thread including the FFL in question.

bruceflinch
12-29-2012, 8:03 AM
What advantage is there to being a permanent resident here 30 years & owning a business that employs 80 people? Why didn't OP file for Naturalization after the 3-5 year period?
And now the OP is playing the Race card?

The FFL has the right to refuse service & the OP has the right to go to another FFL.

corcoraj2002
12-29-2012, 8:32 AM
You are right Sakiri, it is 5 years and you have to show that you didn't take advantage of any social programs.

If via work 3 years by marriage. I am at the end of the former.

Swiss
12-29-2012, 10:11 AM
I think anyone refusing firearm sales to qualified non-citizens is "UN-AMERICAN". Is this not a human right protected by our 2nd Amendment?

a1c
12-29-2012, 11:02 AM
You are right Sakiri, it is 5 years and you have to show that you didn't take advantage of any social programs.

And it's 5 years of permanent residency - whichever number of years you spent on worker or student visas don't count.

I've been in the US for more than 13 years and I'll only be eligible to apply for citizenship next year.

Contrary to popular belief, USCIS doesn't make it easy to apply for citizenship. Not saying they should. But it's not the walk in the park some seem to believe it is. We're not in the 1900s anymore.

Eastbayguy
12-29-2012, 11:03 AM
So you have lived in the USA for 30 years and never found the time to become a US citizen ? Hummm.....:rolleyes:
My friend is from Germany, so if he applies for a citizenship here he is going to have his German citizenship revoked automatically(which provides much better social benefits after retirement).

a1c
12-29-2012, 11:11 AM
Those having a problem with the guy wanting to keep his citizenship of birth should then urge all Americans living abroad to renounce their U.S. citizenship.

I know a lot of those, living in Europe or Asia or Central America or in the Caribbeans. None of them seems to be in any hurry to do so.

So remember: it goes both ways.

Gray Peterson
12-29-2012, 11:11 AM
It is unlawful under the Unruh Civil Rights Act to discriminate against a legal resident alien versus a citizen. It is no different under the law than him refusing to sell to blacks, assuming the buyer paperwork is in order federally. This is a condition of the dealers state licensure. Refusing to comply with state law is a FFL revocable offense.

stator
12-29-2012, 11:16 AM
My purchase is absolutely legal under the law, i bought 4 hand guns this year with no problems. They did my background check like with everybody else.
You also said that if the dealer feels that the transaction isn't on the up and up he can pull the plug. Well, couldn't be the way i look or my accent, i am as white as the come from Austria, have been living here almost 30 years and as i mentioned above...i wasn't sweating, nervous, scared.....i just filled the space where it is required to put my L-551 in. But they didn't have any problems with taking my money, as long as i would come up with a FFL.

You are free to open a gun store and cater to legal residences and any other sales policy allowed with your FFL.

a1c
12-29-2012, 11:18 AM
You are free to open a gun store and cater to legal residences and any other sales policy allowed with your FFL.

Actually, the FFL violated the law. It's weird that anybody claiming to be pro-2A would not be outraged by that.

tenpercentfirearms
12-29-2012, 11:28 AM
I have heard of other dealers doing this too. I will sell a firearm to anyone who legally can buy one. Resident alien's money is just as good as anyone else's!

My favorite customers are non-immigrant aliens. They are usually engineers or software guys here from oppressive homelands, love guns, and have tons of money to spend on them.

Send me all of your non-citizen customers. I would love to have them.

keenkeen
12-29-2012, 11:28 AM
You are free to open a gun store and cater to legal residences and any other sales policy allowed with your FFL.

I am not sure a gun shop catering to dwellings would do very well...

prob
12-29-2012, 11:29 AM
Become a citizen.

Unless you like the free health care and benefits...


I'd say this comment is entirely unwarranted. He didn't say he was illegal. There is a vast divide between being a legal resident and an illegal alien. And you, sir, apparently lack the intelligence to figure that out.

Eastbayguy
12-29-2012, 11:32 AM
I have heard of other dealers doing this too. I will see a firearm to anyone who legally can buy one. Resident alien's money is just as good as anyone else's!

My favorite customers are non-immigrant aliens. They are usually engineers or software guys here from oppressive homelands, love guns, and have tons of money to spend on them.

Send me all of your non-citizen customers. I would love to have them.
It's even better when they have to get back to their countries and selling their collection cheap:).

madjack956
12-29-2012, 12:18 PM
I guess Im doing my obtuse thing again...but would somebody explain to me how all these people who have been in this country all these years still don't have their citizenship.

Im surprised from the comments Ive been reading in this thread about the hoops these guys are jumping through. I didnt know those rules existed anymore.

Didn't they have an amnesty for that once, (Reagan) or did it only apply to those from the country of Mexico?

And why does everyone else needs a sponsor and a clean record and cant recieve any help from a social program, but a Mexican gets free health care, and a pass on license and insurance laws?

Please save the racist Mexican comments, cause thats not the case, Im just really confused with how this double standard works.

Besides, I love Salma Hayek...:D

a1c
12-29-2012, 12:54 PM
I guess Im doing my obtuse thing again...but would somebody explain to me how all these people who have been in this country all these years still don't have their citizenship.

Im surprised from the comments Ive been reading in this thread about the hoops these guys are jumping through. I didnt know those rules existed anymore.

What are you talking about? There are more rules than ever!

Let me give you a brief overview of how you can get US citizenship:

- Jus soli: you are born on US soil. Congrats, you're automatically a US citizen. Didn't have to work for it, good for you!

- Family sponsorship: this takes years. A direct relative (not a grandfather, not an aunt, not a grandson) sponsors you for permanent residence. This applies for instance to legal aliens whose children were born in the US, or US citizens sponsoring their parents to come here. Process can take years, sometimes a decade. Then you get permanent residence (a.k.a. a green card, and after several years, you can apply for US citizenship). After 5 years of permanent residence, you may apply for US citizenship.

- Employer sponsorship: you find an employer that can sponsor your visa, and you HAVE to have a 4-year college degree (or equivalent), and the employer must show they have been publishing the job ad for your job publicly and recruiting for it. It's not cheap, and in tough economic times, those jobs are harder to find (you'll see "no H1b visa" or "US citizens or permanent residents only" mentions on some job ads - that means the employer won't sponsor anyone for a visa). Sponsoring someone for a visa is not cheap for the employer, which must pay the costs.
After a year or more (depending on the employer's policy), the employer may accept to sponsor the alien worker for permanent residence (green card). The process is also expensive and takes 2 to 4 years, depending on the category the alien is in.
After 5 years AFTER obtaining the green card, the permanent resident may apply for US citizenship.

- Spouse sponsorship: alien marries US citizen. After 3 years AFTER receiving the green card (it may take up to a year or more after the wedding day), the alien may apply for US citizenship.

- There are other miscellaneous venues (political asylum, Nobel prize winners, etc.), but they are not exactly open to the average alien. Again, you get permanent residence first (green card), and then after a certain number of years you may apply for citizenship.

Didn't they have an amnesty for that once, (Reagan) or did it only apply to those from the country of Mexico?

It only applied to certain classes of illegal immigrants. And there were several of these amnesties.

And why does everyone else needs a sponsor and a clean record and cant recieve any help from a social program, but a Mexican gets free health care, and a pass on license and insurance laws?

That's all they get, and the "pass" on license and insurance laws is not accurate. Free health care? More or less. Don't expect to get MRIs or orthodontics if you're an illegal. If you think they get a ton of benefits, might want to get acquainted with the problem a bit better.

Please save the racist Mexican comments, cause thats not the case, Im just really confused with how this double standard works.

Besides, I love Salma Hayek...:D

It's not double standards, because no legal alien would trade their issues for that of illegals in a million years. They're at the bottom of the social pyramid. Most of us who got here on a visa are much luckier and have a lot more opportunities.

ScottB
12-29-2012, 2:31 PM
Become a citizen.

Unless you like the free health care and benefits...

Cheap shot. Very nice. Now crawl back under your rock

NytWolf
12-29-2012, 2:35 PM
I was pointing out that the seller (dealer's) possible reluctance to perform a transfer may be a result of having had situations where (as a dealer) they were being set-up for revocation of their FFL / prosecution.

I cannot speak as to what the dealer's reason was for refusing to process a DROS..

It doesn't matter if they were being setup. The bottom line is, the transaction is still legal. If it's legal, the FFL has nothing to worry about.

madjack956
12-29-2012, 4:09 PM
What are you talking about? There are more rules than ever!

Let me give you a brief overview of how you can get US citizenship:

- Jus soli: you are born on US soil. Congrats, you're automatically a US citizen. Didn't have to work for it, good for you!

- Family sponsorship: this takes years. A direct relative (not a grandfather, not an aunt, not a grandson) sponsors you for permanent residence. This applies for instance to legal aliens whose children were born in the US, or US citizens sponsoring their parents to come here. Process can take years, sometimes a decade. Then you get permanent residence (a.k.a. a green card, and after several years, you can apply for US citizenship). After 5 years of permanent residence, you may apply for US citizenship.

- Employer sponsorship: you find an employer that can sponsor your visa, and you HAVE to have a 4-year college degree (or equivalent), and the employer must show they have been publishing the job ad for your job publicly and recruiting for it. It's not cheap, and in tough economic times, those jobs are harder to find (you'll see "no H1b visa" or "US citizens or permanent residents only" mentions on some job ads - that means the employer won't sponsor anyone for a visa). Sponsoring someone for a visa is not cheap for the employer, which must pay the costs.
After a year or more (depending on the employer's policy), the employer may accept to sponsor the alien worker for permanent residence (green card). The process is also expensive and takes 2 to 4 years, depending on the category the alien is in.
After 5 years AFTER obtaining the green card, the permanent resident may apply for US citizenship.

- Spouse sponsorship: alien marries US citizen. After 3 years AFTER receiving the green card (it may take up to a year or more after the wedding day), the alien may apply for US citizenship.

- There are other miscellaneous venues (political asylum, Nobel prize winners, etc.), but they are not exactly open to the average alien. Again, you get permanent residence first (green card), and then after a certain number of years you may apply for citizenship.



It only applied to certain classes of illegal immigrants. And there were several of these amnesties.



That's all they get, and the "pass" on license and insurance laws is not accurate. Free health care? More or less. Don't expect to get MRIs or orthodontics if you're an illegal. If you think they get a ton of benefits, might want to get acquainted with the problem a bit better.



It's not double standards, because no legal alien would trade their issues for that of illegals in a million years. They're at the bottom of the social pyramid. Most of us who got here on a visa are much luckier and have a lot more opportunities.

I think you may have missed my point. I knew there were rules, I just didn't think they were being enforced anymore. I got this this impression just like you said " certain classes of illegal immigrants" were allowed amnesty. Although I didn't know there were certain classes.

As far as free medical. Whatever they are or aren't getting is a hell of a lot more than you or i are getting for free.

One example, my wife cant sachet into a hospital and have a baby for free like an illegal can.

As far as the insurance and registration thing. Check out the sanctuary cities and tell me they dont get a pass, and their vehicle doesn't get towed if they get busted driving without license and registration. It was in the news paper. The mayor was saying it wasn't fair because they couldn't afford the fines and many were losing their vehicle.

Respectfully, maybe you are the one that should get acquainted a bit better with the problem. You ( and I respect your efforts) have spent so much time doing it the right way you really dont know how many people are getting to the end game by breaking all the rules.

a1c
12-29-2012, 4:25 PM
I think you may have missed my point. I knew there were rules, I just didn't think they were being enforced anymore. I got this this impression just like you said " certain classes of illegal immigrants" were allowed amnesty. Although I didn't know there were certain classes.

Look up the conditions for those amnesties (Wikipedia is a good source). Those applying had to fulfill certain conditions (prove they had been in the country for a certain time, had no criminal record, etc.)

As far as free medical. Whatever they are or aren't getting is a hell of a lot more than you or i are getting for free.

Unless you are not insured, you're dead wrong.

One example, my wife cant sachet into a hospital and have a baby for free like an illegal can.

If she's uninsured, yes she can.

As far as the insurance and registration thing. Check out the sanctuary cities and tell me they dont get a pass, and their vehicle doesn't get towed if they get busted driving without license and registration. It was in the news paper. The mayor was saying it wasn't fair because they couldn't afford the fines and many were losing their vehicle.

Don't think for one second illegals in those cities are not mindful of keeping a low profile.

Respectfully, maybe you are the one that should get acquainted a bit better with the problem. You ( and I respect your efforts) have spent so much time doing it the right way you really dont know how many people are getting to the end game by breaking all the rules.

I'm worked alongside illegals and know many of them and their daily struggles.

donny douchebag
12-29-2012, 5:22 PM
"We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone".

This. And 30 years? Really? Time to get with the program.

Gray Peterson
12-29-2012, 5:57 PM
This. And 30 years? Really? Time to get with the program.

Except it's unlawful for the dealer to do what he did.

Some folks won't become citizens due to land alienation laws in their countries. If land has been in their family for generations...

RKBA applies to lawful aliens. Period.

keenkeen
12-29-2012, 6:29 PM
This. And 30 years? Really? Time to get with the program.

Maybe someone is not that interested in becoming a US citizen.

Is there some problem with legal permanent residents just following the laws and maintaining their original (birth country) citizenship?

Follow the law, beyond that it is nobody's business.

:confused:

a1c
12-29-2012, 7:10 PM
This. And 30 years? Really? Time to get with the program.

Then let's revoke the US citizenship of Americans who have lived abroad for that long. There's going to be a lot of unhappy retirees in Costa Rica in a decade or so.

SilverTauron
12-29-2012, 7:48 PM
This. And 30 years? Really? Time to get with the program.

Here's a thought.

Unless you're partly Native American , you're factually an undocumented alien. That includes myself.


I don't like the idea of people using their status as a way to dodge legal responsibility for their actions, but the OP ain't doing that. Calling him a loser for not being born in the US is the height of ignorance.

As far as the FFL goes, he seems to be leery of blowback in case things don't add up with the OP's immigration status. Our government has been selling weapons to Cartel hitmen after all. Tempting fate with the ATF is a prospect which justifiably scares a lot of people. This is not discrimination, but CYA taken to a ludicrous extreme. Discrimination would be the owner not even permitting a sale on account of the OP's ethnicity or citizenship status.

tcrpe
12-29-2012, 8:45 PM
Not sure what happened at the LGS, but this thread has legs!

da81go
12-30-2012, 12:17 AM
What advantage is there to being a permanent resident here 30 years & owning a business that employs 80 people? Why didn't OP file for Naturalization after the 3-5 year period?
And now the OP is playing the Race card?

The FFL has the right to refuse service & the OP has the right to go to another FFL.

Playing the race card ? i am caucasian.

da81go
12-30-2012, 12:51 AM
I guess Im doing my obtuse thing again...but would somebody explain to me how all these people who have been in this country all these years still don't have their citizenship.

Im surprised from the comments Ive been reading in this thread about the hoops these guys are jumping through. I didnt know those rules existed anymore.

Didn't they have an amnesty for that once, (Reagan) or did it only apply to those from the country of Mexico?

And why does everyone else needs a sponsor and a clean record and cant recieve any help from a social program, but a Mexican gets free health care, and a pass on license and insurance laws?




Please save the racist Mexican comments, cause thats not the case, Im just really confused with how this double standard works.

Besides, I love Salma Hayek...:D

I needed a sponsor initially that was financially responsible for me in case i couldn't provide for myself. To keep my green card, i am being checked by immigration and when i am ready to get my citizenship i have to prove that i did as was requested by the Feds.
Illegal aliens fly under the radar and don't have to worry about having to prove anything.
Yes there was an amnesty under Reagan but i was sponsored back then by a company for my skills and did't need the amnesty. Once you have the green card you get it automatically renewed unless you break the law, are being considered a danger to the U.S. (terrorist), becoming a burden to the social services.....
Another reason to sell to legal immigrants, we are much more scrutinized than most other.
Besides, i love Sugey Abrego...:drool5:

da81go
12-30-2012, 1:02 AM
Here's a thought.

Unless you're partly Native American , you're factually an undocumented alien. That includes myself.


I don't like the idea of people using their status as a way to dodge legal responsibility for their actions, but the OP ain't doing that. Calling him a loser for not being born in the US is the height of ignorance.

As far as the FFL goes, he seems to be leery of blowback in case things don't add up with the OP's immigration status. Our government has been selling weapons to Cartel hitmen after all. Tempting fate with the ATF is a prospect which justifiably scares a lot of people. This is not discrimination, but CYA taken to a ludicrous extreme. Discrimination would be the owner not even permitting a sale on account of the OP's ethnicity or citizenship status.


As far as the FFL goes, he seems to be leery of blowback in case things don't add up with the OP's immigration status.

But isn't that what the background check is for ?

IXMM
12-30-2012, 1:08 AM
what is the country of your citizenship?

GuillermoAntonio
12-30-2012, 1:08 AM
Hello all, i am brand new to this forum, have read it for months and learned so much that i am glad that my friend told me about Calguns.
The reason why i actually joined today is that i would like to get some feedback and advice.
I went to a store today to buy a rifle and started to fill out all the paperwork and when it came to the federal sheet i wrote in that i am not an American citizen but am a legally registered alien. I didn't get any further as the sales rep, who by the way was very friendly, stopped me and asked if i wasn't a citizen. I told him no but showed him right away my immigration documents.
He told me that it was the Managers policy not to sell to anyone that is not a citizen.
It kind'a irked me as i have been living here for almost 30 years, am in the process of getting my citizenship but up until now was never refused to buy a firearm. I have purchased numerous handguns and rifles in the past but never experienced anything like this.
Just out of curiosity.... is it even legal to refuse to sell a product to a person because they are not a citizen.
I got my pilot licence here and because i was a resident alien the process was a little bit more stringent but still, there was never any mentioning of not being able to get it.
I was just wondering what your opinion about this case is.
Looking forward to your input.
C.
The main protected categories are:
Gender
Nationality
Race
Age (if over 40)
Religion

So yes, it is discrimination in some way.


I thought that since having an FFL makes them an representative of the Federal Government that they were not allowed to refuse service when it came to lawful firearms transfers. A purchase is a transfer isn't it? Not to mention that discrimination is against state and federal laws.

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/nics/federal-firearms-licensees/ffl-manual

Agree 100%

The ATF places the burden for halting a suspicious transaction at the feet of the selling FFL. If the dealer feels in any way that a gun transaction isn't on the up and up they can pull the plug at their discretion.

A guy walking in with resident alien documentation screams "ATF SETUP", and knowing how the Federal government works I don't blame the dealer one bit. He'd rather lose a sale and have a pissed off customer then sell a gun and lose his license because he forgot to mark Box Z on some dumb form.

Best thing for you to do is to research the legality, find documented proof that your purchase is legal under Federal law, and bring it to an open minded FFL.

Thats a lousy excuse.

Become a citizen.

Unless you like the free health care and benefits...

Is this just a bad joke?

Because to me this comment is not only ridiculous but also ignorant.
Please document yourself a bit more before you throw crap to Permanent Resident Aliens.

IXMM
12-30-2012, 1:08 AM
what is the country of your citizenship?

safewaysecurity
12-30-2012, 1:35 AM
He said he's Austrian guys and he has every right to be upset. These people who say " they have the right to refuse service " don't know what the heck they are talking about. Are they saying if a black guy come in that the owner can deny him a gun because he's black? He would possibly has his FFL revoked for something like that. You cannot deny someone because you have some sort of prejudice against non-citizens.

GuillermoAntonio
12-30-2012, 1:36 AM
As far as the FFL goes, he seems to be leery of blowback in case things don't add up with the OP's immigration status.

But isn't that what the background check is for ?


You nailed it.

The FFL has absolutely NO excuse.

There is no way they can get framed or take a fake green card.
Thats why they run a background check.

This can only be 1 out of 2 things:

100% Discrimination
or
100% Ignorance

Its time you call out the FFL.
Im wondering if this happened in Oceanside?

Definitely NOT Ironsights, because I have bought from them and I'm a Green Card holder as well.

da81go
12-30-2012, 2:05 AM
This. And 30 years? Really? Time to get with the program.

What program are you talking about ?
The one for the ignorant ?
The one for the small minded ?
The nescient one ?
how about the incongruous one.

which one do you belong to ? Just want to make sure it won't be the one i am getting with.

Seriously though, i don't know why some of you guys would judge me by getting my citizenship sooner. And why is it that i shouldn't be able to own a business because of that? To anyone that belongs to one of the programs listed above, it just proves that i had to work much harder than most people as getting credits, a loan from the SBA, leasing a property and all the other fringe benefits you have as a citizen are basically almost impossible to get.
I bet your behind if you, god forbid, should lose your job and your home in this political times and financial hardship, wouldn't mind if i was from the MOFNW and beg us "lower class legal aliens employers" to get a job and a paycheck ever other month to be able to feed your family. Trust me, none of my employees don't give a **** what my immigration status is.
And there is exactly 4 reasons why i didn't apply for the citizenship until a few month ago, of which all of them is none of your business as it doesn't affect you. Unless you think it's your right to tell everybody else what they should do which puts you, i guess, in the same program as Feinstein, Michael Moore,
the Taliban, Nancy Pelosi, Pol Pot and the North Korean government, just to name a few.
And i don't want to get with that program either.

da81go
12-30-2012, 2:17 AM
You nailed it.

The FFL has absolutely NO excuse.

There is no way they can get framed or take a fake green card.
Thats why they run a background check.

This can only be 1 out of 2 things:

100% Discrimination
or
100% Ignorance

Its time you call out the FFL.
Im wondering if this happened in Oceanside?

Definitely NOT Ironsights, because I have bought from them and I'm a Green Card holder as well.

you are right, i got my last 2 handguns from Ironsight with no problems.
Just give me a couple of days until i get my rifle transferred over. I'll tel you that it is in coastal north county.
Honestly, i really didn't want to be a buttwipe to any business as that is usually bad juju but the fact that they took my money anyways is not right in my book. But i couldn't find that rifle anywhere else, don't have the experience or knowledge to put one together myself, so that's why i went through with the deal.

MattyB
12-30-2012, 2:23 AM
What program are you talking about ?
The one for the ignorant ?
The one for the small minded ?
The nescient one ?
how about the incongruous one.

which one do you belong to ? Jut want to make sure it won't be the one i am getting with.

Seriously though, i don't know why some of you guys would judge me by getting my citizenship sooner. And why is it that i shouldn't be able to own a business because of that? To anyone that belongs to one of the programs listed above, it just proves that i had to work much harder than most people as getting credits, a loan from the SBA, leasing a property and all the other fringe benefits you have as a citizen are basically almost impossible to get.
I bet your behind if you, god forbid, should lose your job and your home in this political times and financial hardship, wouldn't mind if i was from the MOFNW and beg us "lower class legal aliens employers" to get a job and a paycheck ever other month to be able to feed your family. Trust me, none of my employees don't give a **** what my immigration status is.
And there is exactly 4 reasons why i didn't apply for the citizenship until a few month ago, of which all of them is none of your business as it doesn't affect you. Unless you think it's your right to tell everybody else what they should do which puts you, i guess, in the same program as Feinstein, Michael Moore,
the Taliban, Nancy Pelosi, Pol Pot and the North Korean government, just to name a few.
And i don't want to get with that program either.

You have lived and prospered in a country for at least 3 decades yet you have 4 reasons that you haven't wanted to become a naturalized citizen until recently??

I really hope they are GOOD reasons.

da81go
12-30-2012, 2:29 AM
You have lived and prospered in a country for at least 3 decades yet you have 4 reasons that you haven't wanted to become a naturalized citizen until recently??

I really hope they are GOOD reasons.

They are and as mentioned before none of your business.
Seriously, do you belong to the Taliban, Communist party or some other radical religious organization that needs to tell me what i have to do or not ?

MattyB
12-30-2012, 2:33 AM
They are and as mentioned before none of your business.
Seriously, do you belong to the Taliban, Communist party or some other radical religious organization that needs to tell me what i have to do or not ?

Nope I said I hope they were really good reasons.

I can think of a few reasons not to be a citizen but I wont try to offend you.

Things like not being subject to selective service, jury duty, being eligible for social welfare benefite of your home land and being able to manipulate your tax status are a few.

Not saying those are the reasons though.

da81go
12-30-2012, 2:47 AM
Nope I said I hope they were really good reasons.

I can think of a few reasons not to be a citizen but I wont try to offend you.

Things like not being subject to selective service, jury duty, being eligible for social welfare benefite of your home land and being able to manipulate your tax status are a few.

Not saying those are the reasons though.

Okay, seems fair, let's just say it has something to do with property back in Austria, and some other personal stuff. About the service, if you mean military, i tried to sign up after 9/11 was ready to transfer my business to my partner but was told that i was too old. (above 40)
Jury duty doesn't bother me as i look at it as a privilege. Social welfare from back home isn't the reason either as i paid since i am here into the US social security and therefore back home i wouldn't get enough to live comfortable. Tax manipulation is pretty difficult too as i work with the Feds on a daily basis and they are pretty, sometimes unreasonable with what i have to provide regarding my and the companies financials.

MattyB
12-30-2012, 2:55 AM
Okay, seems fair, let's just say it has something to do with property back in Austria, and some other personal stuff. About the service, if you mean military, i tried to sign up after 9/11 was ready to transfer my business to my partner but was told that i was too old. (above 40)
Jury duty doesn't bother me as i look at it as a privilege. Social welfare from back home isn't the reason either as i paid since i am here into the US social security and therefore back home i wouldn't get enough to live comfortable. Tax manipulation is pretty difficult too as i work with the Feds on a daily basis and they are pretty, sometimes unreasonable with what i have to provide regarding my and the companies financials.

I dont want your reasons, I listed a few that someone wouldnt want to though.

I just hoped they were good enough that you werent willing to pledge youself to the country that has made you successful.

Gray Peterson
12-30-2012, 3:46 AM
There is no legal or moral requirement that a permanent resident be forced to become a citizen. The 4th amendment applies to him, the 1st amendment applies to him, and the same with the Second Amendment.

I just wish people would get that through their skulls and not do the anti-gunner's work by wanting to narrow the available pool of gun owners.

keenkeen
12-30-2012, 8:22 AM
I dont want your reasons, I listed a few that someone wouldnt want to though.

I just hoped they were good enough that you werent willing to pledge youself to the country that has made you successful.

OK, Barack...we get it..."he didn't build that"...the country made him successful.


:rolleyes:

redcliff
12-30-2012, 9:17 AM
It is unlawful under the Unruh Civil Rights Act to discriminate against a legal resident alien versus a citizen. It is no different under the law than him refusing to sell to blacks, assuming the buyer paperwork is in order federally. This is a condition of the dealers state licensure. Refusing to comply with state law is a FFL revocable offense.

Except it's unlawful for the dealer to do what he did.

Some folks won't become citizens due to land alienation laws in their countries. If land has been in their family for generations...

RKBA applies to lawful aliens. Period.

There is no legal or moral requirement that a permanent resident be forced to become a citizen. The 4th amendment applies to him, the 1st amendment applies to him, and the same with the Second Amendment.

I just wish people would get that through their skulls and not do the anti-gunner's work by wanting to narrow the available pool of gun owners.

Gray posted all that needs to be said about this thread. The FFL is wrong, probably breaking laws by refusing the transfer, and OP did nothing wrong by not obtaining US citizenship.

Some of the comments in this thread are disturbing. As a US citizen I'd like to think I have the ability to live abroad for love, money or whatever reason and not be forced to give up my citizenship as long as I'm in the country legally and paying taxes there on what I earn.

Zedrek
12-30-2012, 11:10 AM
Wow, the responses in this thread about da81go's nationality and obtaining citizenship make me real embarrassed to be associated with Calguns right now. Who gives a crap if he isn't a citizen. He's paying taxes like we are and he isn't here for Obamacare so shut the F**K up already. The FFL is an idiot. If he was so worried that the OP was up to no good why would he agree to take his money and send it to another FFL? Sounds to me like you'd still be involved. Welcome to Calguns da81go. Full of useful information and bigots.

a1c
12-30-2012, 11:48 AM
No one in this forum should question anybody's motive for getting or NOT getting US citizenship, especially those who happen to be US citizens merely because they were born here - because it's not like they earned it out of their own merits. They jus happened to be lucky. So no lecture.

Eastbayguy
12-30-2012, 12:22 PM
It's always funny when a business owner is complaining about other business owner. You decided to do a transaction with that bad shop anyway despite their policy because of price/availability/etc, so there is no need to whine about it or mount your soup box.

da81go
12-30-2012, 3:21 PM
It's always funny when a business owner is complaining about other business owner. You decided to do a transaction with that bad shop anyway despite their policy because of price/availability/etc, so there is no need to whine about it or mount your soup box.

Except if it comes down to demand and supply. If they supply would be there i would have done so. But i guess, according to your reasoning, everybody who had a tough time during the high gas prices should just have pissed in their tank or not go to work. And the argument that it is a necessity to live but a gun isn't, you don't need a car, you always can take open transportation or thumb it to work.
To me it's more to protect some rights that i have earned through years of waiting in line, being checked over by immigration and later on again by the FBI (reasoning for that is because i joined the Big Brother of America program), paying my taxes, having been a productive member of society, never had run ins with the law, being responsible and providing for my own well-fare and other actions that i took to become a lawful resident.
You are also right that i could wait until the supply for this specific model gets up to par again but you know, i want it right now, they are the only one i can
get it currently from, i paid fully for it, so why should i be refused to get it handed over like any other person that is, by law, rightfully granted the ownership of a firearm.
I own property here, am i not legally in the right to defend it ?

Court ruled that the Second Amendment protects an individual's right to possess a firearm, unconnected to service in a militia[1][2] and to use that arm for traditionally lawful purposes, such as self-defense within the home.

It doesn't single out citizens

the United States Bill of Rights that protects the right of the people to keep and bear arms.

In Fletcher v. Haas, the United States District Court for the District of Massachusetts held that Permanent resident aliens are included amongst ‘the people’ as the term is used in the Second Amendment to the United States Constitution.

The Federal Civil Rights Act guarantees all people the right to "full and equal enjoyment of the goods, services, facilities, privileges, advantages, and accommodations of any place of public accommodation, without discrimination or segregation on the ground of race, color, religion, or national origin."

In cases in which the patron is not a member of a federally protected class, the question generally turns on whether the business's refusal of service was arbitrary, or whether the business had a specific interest in refusing service. For example, in a recent case, a California court decided that a motorcycle club had no discrimination claim against a sports bar that had denied members admission to the bar because they refused to remove their "colors," or patches, which signified club membership. The court held that the refusal of service was not based on the club members' unconventional dress, but was to protect a legitimate business interest in preventing fights between rival club members.

Must be the Mongols and Hells Angels ? But my point i guess is that in my case i am a member of a federally protected class ?

there were comments about the sign "we reserve the right to refuse service to anyone"
A sign saying "We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone" used to be code in the Jim Crow South that the place was segregated. The Public Accommodations provisions of the Civil Rights Act of '64 were enacted to outlaw this.

BTW, thanks to all of you replying, it is interesting to learn about all the different opinions.
If i would have been refused the sale because of a personal objection about the way i look, behave or somehow come across as a nutcase, i could deal with that on its merits. In this case the store announced a general policy and refused to sell to me because I'm a member of a group, legal residents, that they apparently discriminate against.
Also, initially i really didn't try to stir up the dung, only tried to find out if there are other similar experiences and how they were handled.
But after getting answers from some really ignorant people i felt it was my duty to step up on the soap-box to express and defend my legal rights.
As for some of you, denying legal residents to get weapons might be just the first step under the Obama rule. I realize there is not a federal law, yet, that rules that resident aliens can't buy weapons but what will be the next ?
You only will be able to purchase a gun if over 30 ? then only to people that carry large amounts of money on a daily base followed by active duty military only ? I think we all are stepping on really thin ice here.
Another issue that really bothers me as it should you is the ability for government to pass BSL (breed specific legislation) whenever they fell like it.
Think i am kidding ? Did you know that the city of Hollister banned Pitbull like dogs AND CHIHUAHUAS ?
http://stopbsl.org/2010/10/07/hollister-ca-breed-specific-msn-passed/

So what do you think will happen to the second amendment if you don't fight for it ? And that includes Resident Aliens and Citizens alike.

keenkeen
12-30-2012, 3:30 PM
It's always funny when a business owner is complaining about other business owner. You decided to do a transaction with that bad shop anyway despite their policy because of price/availability/etc, so there is no need to whine about it or mount your soup box.

What the heck are you talking about? ;)

A soapbox is a raised platform from which a speech is delivered...What does a "soup box" have to do with it and why would someone mount it in order to make a point?

:D

Malapropism?

Mr. Beretta
12-30-2012, 5:41 PM
I for one....Can't wait to hear the name of the FFL.

The FFL should have never taken the OP's money.


da81go...no problem in waiting to reveal the FFL but please don't forget to do it.

Thanks.

Erik.Golobic
12-30-2012, 6:16 PM
I'm appalled at the bigotry in this thread. da81go, I'm sure you have been paying taxes and offering jobs to dozens of Americans for years. As I see it you are doing no harm not being a citizen. You are in fact contributing to the United States. When you do finish the process I will welcome you as a brother and a fellow American.

Cato
12-30-2012, 7:59 PM
Can I buy a rifle in your country?

da81go
12-30-2012, 9:37 PM
No, and your point is ?

paladin4415
12-30-2012, 10:13 PM
I didn't read every post in this thread, (some were hurting my head) but if you still need an FFL to do the transfer and don't mind coming into east San Diego County, try Don Gussler. He is one of the most "informed" FFL's I know.

http://gusslers.com/services/transfers/

Oh, and welcome to Calguns. Please try to ignore the ignorant on the forum. That's what the rest of us do.

Sealawyer
12-30-2012, 10:16 PM
An LPR who hasn't taken the time to naturalize as a citizen should not have the right to bear arms, They aren't part of the WE THE PEOPLE yet.

Erik.Golobic
12-30-2012, 10:21 PM
An LPR who hasn't taken the time to naturalize as a citizen should not have the right to bear arms, They aren't part of the WE THE PEOPLE yet.

Every man woman and child has a right to self defense. The Constitution, nor citizenship, doesn't grant that but rather protects it. Why all the vitriol? This man is helping to make America a better place. He is not a drain on the system. His rights are just as valid as any of yours.

paladin4415
12-30-2012, 10:26 PM
An LPR who hasn't taken the time to naturalize as a citizen should not have the right to bear arms, They aren't part of the WE THE PEOPLE yet.

Really....you can't possibly mean that. Maybe you should do a little research about why this country is what it is.

Zedrek
12-30-2012, 10:28 PM
An LPR who hasn't taken the time to naturalize as a citizen should not have the right to bear arms, They aren't part of the WE THE PEOPLE yet.

And somebody as ignorant as yourself should not have the right to bear arms.:facepalm:

SupraMiggs
12-30-2012, 10:47 PM
Become a citizen.

Unless you like the free health care and benefits...

I have not seen a post this inaccurate and unintelligent in a very long time..

bigmike82
12-30-2012, 11:42 PM
An LPR who hasn't taken the time to naturalize as a citizen should not have the right to bear arms, They aren't part of the WE THE PEOPLE yet.

lol. The troll is strong with this one.

madjack956
12-31-2012, 12:00 AM
da81go,

Im not saying you were but, if you were under the impression I was knocking you for not being a citizen, thats not the case at all. I was merely surprised people were held to such rules nowadays with the rampant illegal immigration being overlooked for the most part and the amnesty plans.

If your here doing your thing and not a burden on this country, I really dont care what anyones status is.

I know a few posters have made some nasty remarks, but I hope you didn't percieve my curiositys as a slight. It was never my intention.

bwiese
12-31-2012, 12:01 AM
da81go,

Please tell us the name of the gunshop that caused you this grief thru their illegal conduct.

da81go
12-31-2012, 12:12 AM
An LPR who hasn't taken the time to naturalize as a citizen should not have the right to bear arms, They aren't part of the WE THE PEOPLE yet.
Would this also apply for all the brave soldiers that have been defending this country but not being citizens as well ?
And do you think if it ever comes to the worst situation possible i wouldn't stand up and defend this great country ? America is my home, the place where i immigrated legally to, was stringently checked over and over again to make sure i am not a fake, that i settled down, built my life, my business (without Obama's help) and my future.
I just wanted to thank you all that have been supporting me and gave me advice and to all the others that disagree, it starts with having lawful citizens
denied their right to carry arms ad it will spread further and one of this days it will happen to you. Did you watch the news today about what is the most important issues to our president to solve ? Gun control.
Or maybe you were too busy watching Jersey Shore or Honey Boo Boo that you missed that ?

bwiese
12-31-2012, 12:16 AM
Would this also apply for all the brave soldiers that have been defending this country but not being citizens as well ?
And do you think if it ever comes to the worst situation possible i wouldn't stand up and defend this great country ? America is my home, the place where i immigrated legally to, was stringently checked over and over again to make sure i am not a fake, that i settled down, built my life, my business (without Obama's help) and my future.
I just wanted to thank you all that have been supporting me and gave me advice and to all the others that disagree, it starts with having lawful citizens
denied their right to carry arms ad it will spread further and one of this days it will happen to you. Did you watch the news today about what is the most important issues to our president to solve ? Gun control.
Or maybe you were too busy watching Jersey Shore or Honey Boo Boo that you missed that ?

Relax dai1go, there are quite a few people here who want you to not have guns, put gays to death, castigate atheists like myself, deprive a woman of her right to personal decisions, etc. Quite a few old crusty gunnies here do not understand gun rights are civil rights and thus similar respect must be given to other amendments/rights, too, - the same as we demand for 2A.

da81go
12-31-2012, 12:23 AM
da81go,

Please tell us the name of the gunshop that caused you this grief thru their illegal conduct.

I will asap, i found a FFL that knows the law and is willing to protect my rights as an individual and legal resident and as soon as he has the arm in his hands i will give it out.
I passed all the info out to him and hopefully this will get resolved quickly.
Just to make a clarification though, please don't slam the sales people there as they were very courteous and helpful but it was the management that refused to make the transition.

AUstate
12-31-2012, 12:31 AM
It is sad to see that many ignorant responses,

Whats even sadder, is that I am not surprised at all.

How can we grow and expand 2A rights when so many of us are chronically ignorant.

Eastbayguy
12-31-2012, 12:47 AM
I went through the whole process myself: H1B visa, company sponsored Green Card, naturalized citizen (took me 12 years) and I do not think that immigrants should cry over hardship/oppression, real or imaginary in US. **** happens, get over it.

da81go
12-31-2012, 1:15 AM
da81go,

Im not saying you were but, if you were under the impression I was knocking you for not being a citizen, thats not the case at all. I was merely surprised people were held to such rules nowadays with the rampant illegal immigration being overlooked for the most part and the amnesty plans.

If your here doing your thing and not a burden on this country, I really dont care what any ones status is.

I know a few posters have made some nasty remarks, but I hope you didn't percieve my curiositys as a slight. It was never my intention.

Madjack. I wasn't offended by you or anyone else with an argument or comment that was made as i went on this forum to ask more experienced members if they had recommendations or suggestions regarding my issue.
I learnt a lot the last couple of days.
I learnt that 95%of this forum are people that i have a lot of respect for standing up to my and every other Resident Alien's rights, i learnt that lot of you guys can have a courteous, respectful way to disagree with each other, that most of you understand that it also could affect your right to carry guns in the future and than you have the 3% that are just short sighted and imbecile boneheads that probably would also be pretty amiable if they just would inform themselves about the issue on hand before making comments, but then you have the 2%ers that are just being biased, prejudiced, contemptuous bigots and haters that have to come out of the woods, try to walk upright for the first time, not cutting themselves when using fork and
knife and try to join civilization.

da81go
12-31-2012, 1:18 AM
[QUOTE=Eastbayguy;10064927]I went through the whole process myself: H1B visa, company sponsored Green Card, naturalized citizen (took me 12 years) and I do not think that immigrants should cry over hardship/oppression, real or imaginary in US. **** happens, get over it.[/QUOTE

hardship or oppression ? it's about discrimination.

Gray Peterson
12-31-2012, 1:56 AM
I went through the whole process myself: H1B visa, company sponsored Green Card, naturalized citizen (took me 12 years) and I do not think that immigrants should cry over hardship/oppression, real or imaginary in US. **** happens, get over it.

Dealers who engage in unlawful behavior blacken the eyes of all gun owners...

stix213
12-31-2012, 3:22 AM
I'm kinda getting sick of reading about FFL's that don't seem to know much at all about the laws governing their own license. It is pretty irresponsible and lazy of the FFL to say the least.

a1c
12-31-2012, 7:41 AM
An LPR who hasn't taken the time to naturalize as a citizen should not have the right to bear arms, They aren't part of the WE THE PEOPLE yet.

Well ****, then tell that to the tens of thousands of permanent residents serving in the US armed forces then.

You sir don't deserve your US citizenship, because you don't know jack**** about your country's laws and history.

da81go
01-03-2013, 7:45 AM
An LPR who hasn't taken the time to naturalize as a citizen should not have the right to bear arms, They aren't part of the WE THE PEOPLE yet.

You call yourself a lawyer ? I hope your clientele is aware of your knowledge.

http://www.volokh.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/fletcher.pdf

Also, looks like that my rifle will be transferred over to the FFL today and then i will disclose the store. In the meantime i contacted the owner of the store, it's a chain, and that is what i got for a response.



From:
Sent:
To:
Subject:

Good Afternoon ******,
i was trying to buy a gun from one of your stores, started to fill out the paper work and during the process of writing down my I-551 i was suddenly interrupted and told that selling any weapons to a non-citizen were not allowed.
To be honest, i was rather surprised as i have legally the right to buy a weapon like everybody else, as a matter of fact have been doing this for over 20 years and honestly believe that is discrimination.
Correct me if i am wrong but i would understand if the dealer would deny the sale because the prospective buyer looks weird, is drunk, acts nervous and all the other reasons that one might come up with.
What disturbs me is that your policy is geared not to the individual but a whole class of, under the Civil Rights Act, protected class of Permanent Residential Aliens that do have the right to purchase and posses arms just like citizens.

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/unlicensed-persons.html#aliens-purchase


I would gladly like your response in this matter.
Sincerely,
******


I had composed a three paragraph response to your e-mail, then I re-read your original e-mail and saw where you mentioned the “Civil Rights Act”, and decided not to respond.

Semper Fi,

Gray Peterson
01-03-2013, 8:23 AM
Wait wait wait, is this guy a manager of a gun store chain, or is he the owner of the chain?

BigMac
01-03-2013, 9:13 AM
The first thing i was ever told by the ATF is I can reject a sale for any reason I see fit.

I have NO obligation to sell to anyone. However, it is really bad form to single out any one group.
I'd be more than happy to be your FFL. Bring in your docs and fill out your forms.

JochenWeber
01-03-2013, 9:38 AM
Become a citizen.

Unless you like the free health care and benefits...

Idiot

da81go
01-03-2013, 9:50 AM
Wait wait wait, is this guy a manager of a gun store chain, or is he the owner of the chain?

the owner

CEDaytonaRydr
01-03-2013, 10:02 AM
Frank, i will as soon as my gun is in the other FFL's possession. I will let you know though that it is a store in North San Diego County.

Lemme guess:

Turner's San Marcos...? :confused:

Gray Peterson
01-03-2013, 10:10 AM
the owner

http://oag.ca.gov/civil

Go after 'em.

Gray Peterson
01-03-2013, 10:23 AM
The first thing i was ever told by the ATF is I can reject a sale for any reason I see fit.

I have NO obligation to sell to anyone. However, it is really bad form to single out any one group.
I'd be more than happy to be your FFL. Bring in your docs and fill out your forms.

False. Both state & federal law prohibits you from discriminating on the basis of race, religion,

tcrpe
01-03-2013, 10:27 AM
http://oag.ca.gov/civil

Go after 'em.


Civil Rights

The Civil Rights Section works aggressively to protect Californians from discrimination on the basis of race, color, national origin, ancestry, sex, religion, age, marital status, sexual orientation or disability.

Nowhere does it say "citizenship".

CEDaytonaRydr
01-03-2013, 10:27 AM
False. Both state & federal law prohibits you from discriminating on the basis of race, religion,...sex, disability, and military affiliation. ;)

Nowhere does it say "citizenship".

Well, they are going to have to convince the court that they were only discriminating against him because he's not a citizen (even though it is legal for him to purchase a firearm) and not because he was something other than white. I can tell you right now that the FFL would lose that fight... ;)

tcrpe
01-03-2013, 10:31 AM
...sex, disability, and military affiliation. ;)



Well, they are going to have to convince the court that they were only discriminating against him because he's not a citizen (even though it is legal for him to purchase a firearm) and not because he was something other than white. I can tell you right now that the FFL would lose that fight... ;)

Didn't he say he was a white guy?

This has nothing to do with me being white, their policy is not to sell to non citizens. Well let's rephrase this...they will take your money but you just need to pick your gun up somewhere else.

da81go
01-03-2013, 10:37 AM
Didn't he say he was a white guy?

yes, i am caucasian, but you still can not discrimate because of nationality.
And in this case it wouldn't matter if i am black, brown green or whatever.
He said any non-citizens

Gray Peterson
01-03-2013, 10:42 AM
Nowhere does it say "citizenship".

Unruh Civil Rights Act does not limit itself to that.

goodlookin1
01-03-2013, 11:21 AM
Nowhere does it say "citizenship".

It says National Origin. Citizenship is not required for firearms purchase or ownership. Or have you not read the rest of the thread? Pretty much what the whole thing is about ;)

tcrpe
01-03-2013, 11:29 AM
It says National Origin. Citizenship is not required for firearms purchase or ownership. Or have you not read the rest of the thread? Pretty much what the whole thing is about ;)

I've read the thread. You are missing the point.

"National Origin" is not the same as "Nationality" or "Citizenship"

I only meant to point out a nuance, not start a snark fest. You're on your own with that.



Carry on . . . .

keenkeen
01-03-2013, 11:52 AM
The first thing i was ever told by the ATF is I can reject a sale for any reason I see fit.

I have NO obligation to sell to anyone. However, it is really bad form to single out any one group.
I'd be more than happy to be your FFL. Bring in your docs and fill out your forms.


One can reject and INDIVIDUAL sale for any reason they see fit. But you cannot have a policy or practice that rejects ALL sales to a group of people within a protected class.

How about an FFL decides "No more sales to Women", or "No more sales to all those Asians", or how about "Those Mormons"...

Do you think the ATF would tell them that is OK?

It is not "bad form" to single out one group of buyers based on things like race, religion, sex, etc...it is discrimination.

skyscraper
01-03-2013, 12:47 PM
Become a citizen.

Unless you like the free health care and benefits...

If you dont have anything good to contribute,

Go ahead and start typing anyway since its the anonymous internet.



Back to the subject. I think it's ridiculous to have that as a store policy. I have sold a gun to a guy with a green card before. 10percent did the transfer for me. He was a normal gun enthusiast like the rest of us.

goodlookin1
01-03-2013, 1:22 PM
I've read the thread. You are missing the point.

"National Origin" is not the same as "Nationality"

I only meant to point out a nuance, not start a snark fest. You're on your own with that.

Wasnt trying to be snarky.....apparently I am missing the point.

Anyway, National Origin issues are usually the same as Nationality issues. Only difference is when someone might not actually be from a particular country, but due to the way they were brought up culturally, language spoken, accent, etc.....they can still identify with the culture from that country.

tcrpe
01-03-2013, 1:24 PM
Wasnt trying to be snarky.....apparently I am missing the point.

Anyway, National Origin issues are usually the same as Nationality issues.

No, they are not.

Only difference is when someone might not actually be from a particular country, but due to the way they were brought up culturally, language spoken, accent, etc.....they can still identify with the culture from that country.


Carry on . . . . . .

paratroop
01-03-2013, 1:41 PM
Um, what kind of gun was it? Isn't anyone else curious?

Mitch
01-03-2013, 1:49 PM
lol. The troll is strong with this one.

Never attribute to trolling that which can adequately be explained by stupidity.

BigMac
01-03-2013, 1:51 PM
False. Both state & federal law prohibits you from discriminating on the basis of race, religion,

No, she said it... I never claimed it was the law. So what I said was true.

Im a real capitolist... I dont discriminate anyway...

You can tell me about the law all day, I was just sharing about as near an exact quote as I can muster after almost ten years. I have not in any way said discriminating was legal.

She was not, I'm sure. talking about race or religion. She was referring to my personal feeling about an individual. Get a bad feeling, dont do the deal.

Jees shuch a long rebuttle to such a short responce..

goodlookin1
01-03-2013, 1:55 PM
No, they are not.

Very persuasive argument. I believe you now.

Yes, that was snarky :p

da81go
01-03-2013, 2:35 PM
Um, what kind of gun was it? Isn't anyone else curious?

A Ca. legal for the public to purchase and own gun

skyscraper
01-03-2013, 2:38 PM
A Ca. legal for the public to purchase and own gun

I've always wanted one of those.

da81go
01-03-2013, 2:41 PM
I've always wanted one of those.

well, then better not go to this shop unless you are a citizen :D

skyscraper
01-03-2013, 2:41 PM
well, then better not go to this shop unless you are a citizen :D

We dont even know the shop yet! :D

da81go
01-03-2013, 2:52 PM
We dont even know the shop yet! :D

okay, that's fair...how about that much for right now.
It has 8 outlets throughout the U.S.

X231
01-03-2013, 2:53 PM
Besides, I love Salma Hayek...:D

Out of this whole thread this is about the only thing that makes sense to me .. I would love her long time :D

tcrpe
01-03-2013, 3:04 PM
Very persuasive argument. I believe you now.

Yes, that was snarky :p

"National Origin" -- I hate Italians, I hate Austrians, etc. I'm a natural born US citizen of Irish origin.

"Nationality" -- He's a citizen of Austria, and the shop owner specifically discriminates against Austrians. Not what happened.

This guy declined to provide the service based upon the applicant not being a US citizen, there was no reference to Austria specifically, or any other country specifically, for that matter. (Haha,this could change.)

He wasn't discriminated against based upon national origin.

He could look at me and say, "I'm not gonna do your transfer because I just don't like you." Not a crime, and I'd just walk away.

Temper this with the frustratingly disjointed and confusing way the facts have been presented here. I wouldn't be surprised should the "facts" continue to change and morph.

Nationality refers to citizenship, "national origin" refers to culture.

What's to hate about Austria? Nothing, except Arnold, that is.

Mitch
01-03-2013, 3:06 PM
What's to hate about Austria? Nothing, except Arnold, that is.

Adolf wasn't such a bad guy, I suppose. He liked dogs, after all. Probably just misunderstood.

tcrpe
01-03-2013, 3:09 PM
Adolf wasn't such a bad guy, I suppose. He liked dogs, after all. Probably just misunderstood.


HTF could I forget about Uncle Adolph? :shrug:

Epic Fail!

cruising7388
01-03-2013, 8:54 PM
And DannyInSocal.... if i like free healthcare and benefits ? Never used them since i came to the States. You are an ignorant shmuck.

Well young blood. I'll say this for ya - what you lack in tact you make up for with accuracy.:smash:

a1c
01-03-2013, 9:11 PM
Nowhere does it say "citizenship".

That's what it also means in this context. Look it up. "National origin" is meant to encompass individuals regardless of their citizenship - because they could be naturalized US citizens, or still aliens. Doesn't matter. You're dead wrong on this one.

tcrpe
01-03-2013, 9:21 PM
That's what it also means in this context. Look it up. "National origin" is meant to encompass individuals regardless of their citizenship - because they could be naturalized US citizens, or still aliens. Doesn't matter. You're dead wrong on this one.


Well, this rejection is based upon lack of US citizenship, not his nation of origin. I don't think the gun shop owner cared that he was Austrian, Estonian, Nigerian, or from China. There just isn't any "there" there.

Not sure your contorted argument even makes literal sense, but let's grant that it does.

So, well, if you can set aside your comic outrage for a moment, what it means "in this context" would be for a judge or jury to decide, then, wouldn't it?

Send me the decision of the Administrative Law Judge when you get it.

He'd laugh this white guy out of his courtroom, and rightly so.

On the subject of protected classes, you'd have to convince him that "non-Americans" would be a protected class over ordinary Americans. Really? That's rich.

So precisely which specially protected class was violated here?

Carry on . . . . . . .

da81go
01-05-2013, 9:29 AM
HTF could I forget about Uncle Adolph? :shrug:

Epic Fail!


HTF could I forget about Uncle Adolph? :shrug:

Epic Fail!


Totally agree, oh BTW..... you did say you are Irish ?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1538969/Ireland-welcomed-Hitlers-henchmen.html


But let's just get back to the real discussion here.
You mentioned in your last post, and i quote,

"On the subject of protected classes, you'd have to convince him that "non-Americans" would be a protected class over ordinary Americans. Really? That's rich."

Nowhere and never ever did i suggest or claim that LPR's have more rights than Citizens.
This is ludicrous to be even Insinuated by you.
Sir, if you can point out to me where your accusations were stated, i'd gladly apologize to all people involved in this discussion. Otherwise i would appreciate if you stay with the facts.
I would never in my life allude to such a ridiculous assertion.

Rights and Responsibilities of a Green Card Holder (Permanent Resident)

Your Rights As A Permanent Resident

As a permanent resident (green card holder), you have the right to:

Live permanently in the United States provided you do not commit any actions that would make you removable under immigration law
Work in the United States at any legal work of your qualification and choosing. (Please note that some jobs will be limited to U.S. citizens for security reasons)
Be protected by all laws of the United States, your state of residence and local jurisdictions


Your Responsibilities as a Permanent Resident

As a permanent resident, you are:

Required to obey all laws of the United States the states, and localities
Required to file your income tax returns and report your income to the U.S. Internal Revenue Service and state taxing authorities (see IRS link to the right)
Expected to support the democratic form of government and not to change the government through illegal means
Required, if you are a male age 18 through 25, to register with the Selective Service

BayAreaScott
01-05-2013, 9:44 AM
There are many things that change after you get citizenship outside of not being denied by a store's business policy. At the end of the day the business has the right to conduct business as they see fit and we have the right not to shop there if we don't like it.

However, being a 30 year Permanent Resident without persuing citizenship until now means you have lost out on many a tax benefit. More than a few tax breaks over the past 10 years apply only to citizens not residents ( I know because I was married to resident who was not yet eligible for citizenship). After 10 years of residency you are eligible for citizenship and for the longest time there were 50 fairly simple (aka easy to memorize) questions and your done. Your writing demonstrates a command of the English language so that isn't a problem.

Don't get me wrong, I have MANY friends who are residents, delayed deportation, naturalized citizens. I have found most of them to be much better "Americans" than some who were born here. Case in point; look at the California legislature and the US Congress.

CEDaytonaRydr
01-05-2013, 4:30 PM
So, we're talking about Turner's San Marcos, right?

paratroop
01-07-2013, 5:29 PM
A Ca. legal for the public to purchase and own gun

Oh, I just picked on of those up from big 5 today, and another one from my local gun store for christmas, and a few not too long ago, and made a few a while back, and had a bunch shipped to my house over the last 4 years and imported some in from north carolina about 5 or 6 years ago. They really aren't too hard to find if you look in the right places then. I would pick one of those up wherever else other than the place you went to.

penguinofsleep
01-07-2013, 5:59 PM
my guess is what the others have said:

given the recent situation, some FFLs may be a little uneasy or on edge. from the FFLs ive talked to (2 currently in business, 2 retired) about background checks and refusing sales, pretty much they are allowed to refuse a sale to anyone they feel uneasy about, citizen or no. doesn't take much to make your FFL and hence livelihood go poof. even if they call the atf, doj, or w/e other authority, the answer they usually get is pretty much "your call. you are in the clear to deny sales if you feel it is needed for any legitimate reason, safety, etc. you guys are our first line of defense." so if his jimmies were rustled that day, then he may have felt the sale was "inappropriate" for w/e reason. pretty crappy, but it happens.

however, i too have seen some flat out discrimination, racial and otherwise, and if that is the case (ie demeaning tone, attitude, or hostile body language towards minorities, eligible non citizens, women, etc), please share the name of this place and whether the guy was the owner, manager, or just an uninformed employee so i can avoid giving money to said employee or shop.

North Bay Guy
01-07-2013, 6:22 PM
Don't forget Green Card holders are required to provide their Ca. ID card (or Ca driver license) and a secondary form of residency when purchasing a long gun. Take your Ca. ID card and vehicle registration, utility bill in your name or rental home agreement (lease). You should be good to go.

Mitch
01-08-2013, 8:31 AM
Don't forget Green Card holders are required to provide their Ca. ID card (or Ca driver license) and a secondary form of residency when purchasing a long gun. Take your Ca. ID card and vehicle registration, utility bill in your name or rental home agreement (lease). You should be good to go.

Unless the FFL refuses to do business with Green Card holders.

rdawg
01-08-2013, 8:59 AM
OP,
Id like to know what is the make and model of this gun you just had to pay for from this one dealer thats not available anywhere else in the U.S. is?

Just curious what this rare gun is thats making you go to all this trouble for with this one gun shop in San Diego?

Jungleboxx
01-08-2013, 10:33 AM
Since we're talking about rights here, I personally find it morally wrong for someone to discriminate for any reason, BUT that being said, shouldn't the business owner have the right to conduct business however he wishes, and in return we shop other places?

If I went into a car dealer and they refused to sell me a car would I complain about why? Spend time wondering why they acted that way or would I suck it up and look for a different dealer who I feel should earn my business anyway.

Just my personal opinion, IDK why people seem to be taking sides on this thread when there are no sides to be taken, just a fellow gun owner letting us know a store is crap.

My advice to OP, stop being secretive about the weapon you purchased and the store you purchased it from, it causes people to be skeptical of what your saying. This causes people to make remarks like those made in this thread.

All we know right now is someone has a Calguns Account and is claiming that some store some where refused to sell them some gun for some reason.

BigMac
01-08-2013, 10:39 AM
Don't forget Green Card holders are required to provide their Ca. ID card (or Ca driver license) and a secondary form of residency when purchasing a long gun. Take your Ca. ID card and vehicle registration, utility bill in your name or rental home agreement (lease). You should be good to go.

Secondary no longer required.
No longer even a place to recird this info.

;)

Hoooper
01-08-2013, 11:27 AM
Don't forget Green Card holders are required to provide their Ca. ID card (or Ca driver license) and a secondary form of residency when purchasing a long gun. Take your Ca. ID card and vehicle registration, utility bill in your name or rental home agreement (lease). You should be good to go.

residency proof has to be CA issued for use on all of the forms ive seen, cannot be a utility bill or anything that is not issued by the state.

happened to me since I dont live at the same location as my DL anymore

a1c
01-08-2013, 11:36 AM
Since we're talking about rights here, I personally find it morally wrong for someone to discriminate for any reason, BUT that being said, shouldn't the business owner have the right to conduct business however he wishes, and in return we shop other places?

Please read from the beginning of the thread. The business owner is LICENSED by the government. He doesn't get to pick and choose and discriminate.

da81go
01-08-2013, 2:39 PM
Unless the FFL refuses to do business with Green Card holders.


Mitch, all due respect but you really don't get it.
The store can refuse to sell to me as an individual but not put a whole group in there.
It's like saying, " my last mechanic screwed me over, so from now on we don't sell to mechanics, mothers, females under the age of 27, people with blue eyes.....

I fully indrstand that you might not like us "non=american" trash but the fact is, we have the right to any service or product like you citizens.
We don't have the right to vote, can't leave the usa for extented time, are not allowed to certain jobs that might be of some secret government style...

da81go
01-08-2013, 2:50 PM
[QUOTE=Jungleboxx;10146254]Since we're talking about rights here, I personally find it morally wrong for someone to discriminate for any reason, BUT that being said, shouldn't the business owner have the right to conduct business however he wishes, and in return we shop other places?

But if so, shouldn't the business owner refrain than totally from taking my money at all ?
I don't know if you read the whole threat ?

Also, guess what, the secretive OP has his gun now in the other FFL's possesion.

One thing, the rep and the manager Michelle have been very nice, they just do what they were told by David Hensley, the owner of Quantico Tactical.

I also wrote an e-mail to him and his answer was short but precise. He didn't give me an explanation.




Good Afternoon David,


i was trying to buy a gun from one of your stores, started to fill out the paper work and during the process of writing down my I-551 i was suddenly interrupted and told that selling any weapons to a non-citizen were not allowed.


To be honest, i was rather surprised as i have legally the right to buy a weapon like everybody else, as a matter of fact have been doing this for over 20 years and honestly believe that is discrimination.


Correct me if i am wrong but i would understand if the dealer would deny the sale because the prospective buyer looks weird, is drunk, acts nervous and all the other reasons that one might come up with.


Wath disturbs me is that your policy is geared not to the individual but a whole class of, under the Civil Rights Act, protected class of Permanet Residential Aliens that do have the right to purchase and posses arms just like citizens.

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/unlicensed-persons.html#aliens-purchase

I would gladly like your response in this matter.

Sincerely, Chris




Chris,

I had composed a three paragraph response to your e-mail, then I re-read your original e-mail and saw where you mentioned the “Civil Rights Act”, and decided not to respond.



Semper Fi,

da81go
01-08-2013, 2:52 PM
OP,
Id like to know what is the make and model of this gun you just had to pay for from this one dealer thats not available anywhere else in the U.S. is?

Just curious what this rare gun is thats making you go to all this trouble for with this one gun shop in San Diego?

An AR-15, can you tell me where i can get one ? Back when i bought this one that was it, no other ones around

Armed24-7
01-08-2013, 3:20 PM
The OP is ignoring what numerous people have pointed out and it is the ONLY thing that is relevant; The business has the right to refuse business to anyone.

If I were the OP, I might feel offended too, but there is nothing that can be done about it. I would simply spend my money elsewhere.

Jungleboxx
01-08-2013, 3:29 PM
[QUOTE=Jungleboxx;10146254]Since we're talking about rights here, I personally find it morally wrong for someone to discriminate for any reason, BUT that being said, shouldn't the business owner have the right to conduct business however he wishes, and in return we shop other places?

But if so, shouldn't the business owner refrain than totally from taking my money at all ?
I don't know if you read the whole threat ?

Also, guess what, the secretive OP has his gun now in the other FFL's possesion.

One thing, the rep and the manager Michelle have been very nice, they just do what they were told by David Hensley, the owner of Quantico Tactical.

I also wrote an e-mail to him and his answer was short but precise. He didn't give me an explanation.




Good Afternoon David,


i was trying to buy a gun from one of your stores, started to fill out the paper work and during the process of writing down my I-551 i was suddenly interrupted and told that selling any weapons to a non-citizen were not allowed.


To be honest, i was rather surprised as i have legally the right to buy a weapon like everybody else, as a matter of fact have been doing this for over 20 years and honestly believe that is discrimination.


Correct me if i am wrong but i would understand if the dealer would deny the sale because the prospective buyer looks weird, is drunk, acts nervous and all the other reasons that one might come up with.


Wath disturbs me is that your policy is geared not to the individual but a whole class of, under the Civil Rights Act, protected class of Permanet Residential Aliens that do have the right to purchase and posses arms just like citizens.

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/unlicensed-persons.html#aliens-purchase

I would gladly like your response in this matter.

Sincerely, Chris




Chris,

I had composed a three paragraph response to your e-mail, then I re-read your original e-mail and saw where you mentioned the “Civil Rights Act”, and decided not to respond.



Semper Fi,


I'm not saying it didn't happen or discrediting it since I wasn't there I can't do that, I was simply saying when you give specifics people on the forum tend to be more interested/helpful

Mike27t
01-08-2013, 3:50 PM
People using the example of a business having the right to refuse service to a person have no clue what they are talking about as it does not apply here.

The business is not refusing to serve a person, but rather a group of people. What you call this is discrimination and does not fall under the example people have posted regarding an FFL right to refuse service to someone. Fill in the blank with Blacks, Jews, Hispanics, Gays, Christians, Asian, etc....

Anyone defending this action is ignorant and some are borderline racist based on the comments posted. Actually feel kind of embarrassed to be a member here.

tcrpe
01-08-2013, 3:51 PM
Really? What group?

frankm
01-08-2013, 3:58 PM
David Hensley, the owner of Quantico Tactical <-- discrimination based on nationality or resident status is unlawful. You can only refuse to do business with someone for other reasons, not these.

Unruh Civil Rights Act
"All persons within the jurisdiction of this state are free and equal, and no matter what their sex, race, color, religion, ancestry, national origin, disability, medical condition, genetic information, marital status, or sexual orientation are entitled to the full and equal accommodations, advantages, facilities, privileges, or services in all business establishments of every kind whatsoever."

frankm
01-08-2013, 3:59 PM
An AR-15, can you tell me where i can get one ? Back when i bought this one that was it, no other ones around

Call Parallax Tactical. Maybe you'll get lucky?

da81go
01-08-2013, 4:04 PM
Call Parallax Tactical. Maybe you'll get lucky?

I will from now on go to either them or wiser owels.
Have always had great service from them.

fairfaxjim
01-08-2013, 4:41 PM
da81go,

First off, today is the first time I saw this thread, and I cannot believe the amount of crap, thread jacking and bigotry it has in it. I'd apologize, but there is no excuse for some of this. Sorry you didn't just get the answer you were looking for.

Second, am I correct in that YOU purchased a gun from this dealer and they SOLD YOU the gun but REFUSED TO TRANSFER IT TO YOU (and of course refused to deliver it also)?

While the FFL has a lot of lattitude in processing a sale/transfer, I can't see how they can separate the sale from the transfer?

You should consider taking this one to small claims court and sue them for any extra time/cost you had to complete the sale.

Mitch
01-08-2013, 5:04 PM
Mitch, all due respect but you really don't get it.
The store can refuse to sell to me as an individual but not put a whole group in there.

I was responding to North Bay Guy's suggestion that once you have all your paperwork in order, "You should be good to go."

Obviously you aren't "good to go" if the FFL doesn't want to do business with you. I generally concern myself with how things are, rather than how I think things ought to be.

I fully indrstand that you might not like us "non=american" trash . . .

I can't imagine how you could possibly have arrived at such a conclusion after reading the other posts I made to this thread. My ex was a foreigner (an Arab at that) and I have non-citizens working for me, one of whom has a POST handgun certification.

But you believe whatever you want to believe.

Jungleboxx
01-08-2013, 5:11 PM
Please read from the beginning of the thread. The business owner is LICENSED by the government. He doesn't get to pick and choose and discriminate.

I never said that he has the right to pick and choose and read the thread post for post.

I was just giving my opinion while trying to figure out more on OP's story...And opinions are like Aholes, Everyone has one and they all stink.

goodlookin1
01-08-2013, 5:25 PM
Well, this rejection is based upon lack of US citizenship, not his nation of origin. I don't think the gun shop owner cared that he was Austrian, Estonian, Nigerian, or from China. There just isn't any "there" there.

Not sure your contorted argument even makes literal sense, but let's grant that it does.

....(redacted)....

On the subject of protected classes, you'd have to convince him that "non-Americans" would be a protected class over ordinary Americans. Really? That's rich.

So precisely which specially protected class was violated here?

The group that this FFL discriminated against was the non-citizen group. He discriminated against him on the basis of nationality. Clearly, this FFL is not willing to transfer firearms to non-citizens, even when it is legal to do so. Nationality has to do with a person's relationship to a state. He was denied the direct transfer because he didnt have the highest level of legal relationship to the U.S.A.: Citizenship.

The fact that he wasnt discriminated against because he was from a specific state (country) is of no consequence: You cannot discriminate on the basis of nationality.

From Wikipedia:

Nationality affords the state jurisdiction over the Person and affords the person the protection of the state

tcrpe
01-08-2013, 5:27 PM
This no good bastard is discriminating against two groups that have special protections beyond those afforded ordinary American citizens. . Protections meant to redress past discriminations. Right. If you say so.

The suggest specially protected classes?

1. White guys from Austria

2. Non citizens


Especially given his ongoing pattern of discriminatory behavior as evidenced by all the other white guys from Austria complaining. Wait, what?

I'd have dropped it in the trash on the first mention of discrimination, too.

Waaa, he was rude to me!

Any judge would laugh at this complaint of discrimination.

tcrpe
01-08-2013, 5:28 PM
Group? Name the others in this group, establish a pattern.

Tired of the crybabies.


The group that this FFL discriminated against was the non-citizen group. He discriminated against him on the basis of nationality. Clearly, this FFL is not willing to transfer firearms to non-citizens, even when it is legal to do so. Nationality has to do with a person's relationship to a state. He was denied the direct transfer because he didnt have the highest level of legal relationship to the U.S.A.: Citizenship.

The fact that he wasnt discriminated against because he was from a specific state (country) is of no consequence: You cannot discriminate on the basis of nationality.

From Wikipedia:

Librarian
01-08-2013, 6:37 PM
The OP is ignoring what numerous people have pointed out and it is the ONLY thing that is relevant; The business has the right to refuse business to anyone.

If I were the OP, I might feel offended too, but there is nothing that can be done about it. I would simply spend my money elsewhere.

Folks, this has been running for over a week, and no happy solution has been found.

Let's allow this one to rest.