PDA

View Full Version : And here we go with the propaganda......


LAK Supply
08-19-2007, 1:22 AM
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070818/ap_on_sc/brf_condor_dead

We must ban all lead ammo NOW! If you don't want to ban lead ammo you hate children, kick puppies, and beat the elderly. Come to think of it, maybe we should just ban all ammo....

jumbopanda
08-19-2007, 1:31 AM
Did they say that the condor ate paint and soil? I didn't know their diet consisted of such things.

I may be wrong, but it seems that solid chunks of lead, such as bullets, would just sit in the ground and not much else. How would the contamination spread, or get into animals for that matter? I remember hearing that sometimes the condors eat carcasses that were shot by hunters, but if that's the case, just make hunters dispose of their kills properly.

M. Sage
08-19-2007, 9:26 AM
Condors are so dumb they eat dirt and paint? No wonder there are only 300 left.

Paging Darwin...

scewper
08-19-2007, 9:53 AM
Condors are so dumb they eat dirt and paint? No wonder there are only 300 left.

Paging Darwin...

My thoughts exactly.

Sig357
08-19-2007, 10:02 AM
Condors are so dumb they eat dirt and paint? No wonder there are only 300 left.

Paging Darwin...


True, but the same can be said about humans and nicotine. Should we care? Of course we should. This is our planet we should protect it and our wildlife.

M. Sage
08-19-2007, 10:07 AM
Yeah, I know we should. I was being a smart-***.

What bugs me is that they're blaming us, when it's likely NOT us that are the problem. The damn critter could have picked up lead almost anywhere.

Sig357
08-19-2007, 10:09 AM
Yeah, I know we should. I was being a smart-***.

What bugs me is that they're blaming us, when it's likely NOT us that are the problem. The damn critter could have picked up lead almost anywhere.




Totally agree with you Sage.

Technical Ted
08-19-2007, 10:33 AM
Condors are so dumb they eat dirt and paint? No wonder there are only 300 left.
How do we know they aren't eating chinese made toys?

M. Sage
08-19-2007, 12:12 PM
Hmm, that's a very good point, and a much more believable scenario, IMO.

CavTrooper
08-19-2007, 12:20 PM
I heard the story on the local radio news here, they made no mention of lead bullets, just that the condor died from lead poisioning, eating either paint or soil. Nature has a way of sorting things out, let the stupid birds die out already, damn.

Sig357
08-19-2007, 12:21 PM
How do we know they aren't eating chinese made toys?

thats were my sons GI Joe went to....

carsonwales
08-19-2007, 12:53 PM
Did they say that the condor ate paint and soil? I didn't know their diet consisted of such things.

I may be wrong, but it seems that solid chunks of lead, such as bullets, would just sit in the ground and not much else. How would the contamination spread, or get into animals for that matter? I remember hearing that sometimes the condors eat carcasses that were shot by hunters, but if that's the case, just make hunters dispose of their kills properly.

Rumor has it that the lead is ingested in the process of eating carrion either directly or indirectly...

In other words, an animal is wounded with a bullet, the bullet remains in the animal and then the animal dies.


At this point then the condor consumes the bullet in the process of eating the carrion OR other critters eat the carrion, subsequently die and are eaten by the Condor...

The premise is ridiculous for it assumes that large amounts of animals are running off wounded with lead in them.

I wonder if these left wing nut cases considered for a moment that if large amounts of animals are running off to die...wouldn't the benefit of an increased food supply for the condor far out weight the million to one chance that a condor is going to manage to find a bullet in a wounded critter and swallow it?

CCWFacts
08-19-2007, 1:13 PM
I'd like to present the other side on this: hunting is already a highly regulated activity. There are a million and one rules, governing how many shots your gun can hold, what caliber it is, shotguns only in some places, which days of the year, which types of animals, locations, license and tag requirements, etc. This is yet another regulation, and it may be a sensible one.

Condors may in fact eat dirt. Birds have an organ called a gizzard which is a grinding organ, because birds don't have teeth. Birds swallow grit (tiny stones, about the size of shotgun shot or bullet fragments) and the grit is held in the gizzard and used to grind up their food.

Condors also eat other animals, mainly carrion (dead animals). An animal that has been shot and left would be an attractive meal for a condor, and it would contain lead. So there are two pathways for condors to pick up lead: First, they do in fact swallow dirt, as a requirement for their digestive system. Two, their diet consists of dead animals, including animals which were killed by shooting, or that themselves ate lead somehow. By the way, lead oxides are sweet in flavor, which is why children are attracted to licking lead paint, and why animals might be prone to eating it. A mouse could eat a flake of lead, and die, and then become an attractive meal to a condor, dooming the condor.

These birds are magnificent and highly endangered and are part of California's natural treasures and it would be terrible if we lost them.

I'm not saying that lead ammo should be banned in general, but the less lead gets into the condors' food stream, the better off they will be. It would be great to have more available lead-free ammo options so we can shoot outdoors without worrying about the long-term harm of it. I personally would, given a choice, pay extra for lead-free ammo for outdoor use. Unfortunately there aren't too many choices for that right now. There are plenty of materials that could be used, that would be cheaper than lead and would not have the environmental risks of lead.

For general shooting, I have seen pressed iron powder bullets, which seems like an excellent idea, because iron powder and iron oxides are basically harmless. I'm sure there are a lot of other options too. For hunting, I know that shotgun hunters already have a lot of lead-free options, like bismuth. Could some of those be used in bullets?

CCWFacts
08-19-2007, 1:20 PM
Condors are so dumb they eat dirt and paint? No wonder there are only 300 left.

Paging Darwin...

Maybe I should let this one go, but...

Yes, they do dirt. AFAIK all birds have to eat dirt to put grit into their gizzards. They don't have teeth and they don't really chew food in their beaks, so this dirt is needed to grind food.

As for being so dumb they eat paint... so do human children. Lead paint tastes sweet (or so I am told). Modern human adults know not to eat paint. Human children do not know this, which is why lead paint has been banned everywhere. Animals obviously are unable to know such things.

By the way, even adult humans didn't figure out "don't eat lead" until recently. People used to store wine in lead containers because doing so made the wine taste sweeter.

The colica Pictonum or colic of Poitou, under these and many other names, was a frequent, widespread, and deadly disease from Roman times until the eighteenth century. Its unique pathognomonic, notably a severe colic succeeded by paralysis and other central nervous system dysfunction, makes it possible to identify the disease with certainty as chronic lead disease, usually caused by the ingestion of lead-adulterated wines. The custom of sweetening and preserving sour wines with lead-containing additives is traced to the Romans. They had made the empirical discovery that sapa, a syrup prepared by concentrating must in a lead vessel, kept wine from spoiling and that it had, moreover, an agreeable flavour.

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1139187

So yeah, even humans, including civilized Roman humans, were dumb enough to intentionally put lead in our food until pretty recently.

CCWFacts
08-19-2007, 2:01 PM
Curiosity started in me and I quickly found this site:

Q: How do children get lead poisoning?
A: Children can swallow lead dust or soil that contains lead from paint by putting their hands or toys in their mouth. Lead makes things taste sweet, so children and pets are attracted to the taste of lead paint chips and especially to lead dust. It only takes lead dust equal to two grains of sugar a day on a child's fingertip transferred to the mouth, for perhaps a month, to cause that child's nerve velocity to decrease, making the child slower both physically and mentally. The only way to know for sure if your child has lead poisoning is with a simple blood test. Your doctor can perform the test and explain the results.

http://www.epa.gov/reg3wcmd/lp-faqhealth.htm

Lead dust equal to two grains of sugar a day for a month. A condor probably has similar body weight to a child. One bullet fragment, held in the gizzard, would be released into the system about that rate. And this is an animal that needs to be coordinated enough to fly in order to survive.

M. Sage
08-19-2007, 5:12 PM
Maybe I should let this one go, but...

Yes, they do dirt. AFAIK all birds have to eat dirt to put grit into their gizzards. They don't have teeth and they don't really chew food in their beaks, so this dirt is needed to grind food.

I know all that... point is:

Where are all the other birds dropping dead from lead poisoning? I don't see dead bird carcasses at or around the ranges I go to. Chabot, for one, has a very healthy turkey population, who love to wander out onto the public line to say "hi" from time to time.

FWIW: The alternatives to lead-based ammunition are a lot more expensive, if not non-existent. Rimfire? I'm a milsurp lover, and wouldn't be able to shoot my favorite guns (legally) if there was a ban on lead ammo.

Just a little evidence that there is a credible threat from ammunition would be helpful, because as it stands, there isn't any.

CavTrooper
08-19-2007, 5:20 PM
[QUOTE=M. Sage;717416]I know all that... point is:

Where are all the other birds dropping dead from lead poisoning? I don't see dead bird carcasses at or around the ranges I go to. Chabot, for one, has a very healthy turkey population, who love to wander out onto the public line to say "hi" from time to time.
QUOTE]

Ya gotta compare the condor with other scavengers, vultures, crows, etc. What about the non-winged ones like fox and coyotes. I would be interested in knowing the lead content of the soil and where it came from. I highly doubt the whole lead poisoning from dead animals theory, but I think it is possible, being that I have no idea how much lead it would take to kill a condor.

CCWFacts
08-19-2007, 5:32 PM
True, it would be good to get solid evidence. But with so few of these birds left, the numbers aren't even big enough to do a proper study. The only approach is to ask, where could this lead be coming from? What are the sources of lead these birds could encounter? Given that lead paint stopped being used a couple of decades ago (for safety reasons), and there isn't a huge amount of it out there, what other sources are there in wilderness areas? Unless there are old abandoned lead mines around, none come to my imagination, other than bullets and shot.

About bird populations: Turkeys, I believe, eat mainly things like bugs, plants, etc. They aren't carrion-eaters (are they?). Unlike mammals, bugs and plants don't have an affinity for lead, and don't pick it up. And bugs and plants also don't get shot at.

Condors are uniquely vulnerable to toxins like lead, because their diet is mainly mammalian carrion. Mammals are uniquely likely to eat lead, because it tastes good to mammals, and are also the animals most likely to be hunted. With all the hundreds of mice in an acre of land, of course some mouse is likely to find whatever pieces of lead are there, and that mouse is likely to eventually get eaten. And note that carrion-eaters normally have strong immune systems, but they don't do anything against lead. Other toxins degrade as they go through the food chain. Metals, like mercury and lead, don't degrade at all.

The other factor is, if lead kills off 3% of the turkey population every year in some area, it hardly matters because there are lots of turkeys and they reproduce quickly. Condors, like pandas and some other endangered species, have the problem that they reproduce very very slowly. Like less than one chic a year.

Right now there are 300 condors left, so obviously, when one dies of lead poisoning, people who want to see the species survive are quite worried about it.

I'm not a scientist or an expert in any of this but I can see why people would be very worried: there are so few of these birds left, they reproduce so slowly, and they are at a unique place in the food chain where they are most likely to pick up lead fragments.

As for the expense of non-lead alternatives: I know, and it's hard or impossible to find, and more expensive. I go to my local Big 5 or whatever and ask, "what do you have that's lead-free" and they say, "huh? um, nothing." In fact, though, they could make iron powder bullets cheaper than lead. If there were enough demand, they could offer 22 lr lead-free for less, and, considering the high volume of 22lr used in outdoor plinking, that could go a long way to reducing lead.

It would be a real tragedy if the California Condor disappeared forever. It would be tragic to me if my favorite sport (shooting) caused it in any way.

CCWFacts
08-19-2007, 5:46 PM
no idea how much lead it would take to kill a condor.

It's reasonable to assume that they are about as sensitive as humans. In fact, maybe more so. A human can survive easily with motor impairment. A flying bird cannot.

According to: http://children.webmd.com/news/20070815/lead-poisoning-and-kids it's hard to know exactly what the toxic dose is, because the concern are pre-fatal symptoms like IQ impairment. It does sound like if children eat a few flakes of lead paint now and then, that's enough to cause problems. It's all cumulative. Lead is not easily excreted and so it builds up. I would think that one bullet, or a shotgun pellet, stuck in the gizzard, would be fatal. Certainly if you took one bullet, ground it up, and dosed it to a child over a period of a month or two, that child would have full-blown lead poisoning.

here are now seven peer-reviewed articles in the medical literature that indicate the major loss of IQ occurs in children at blood-lead levels of less than 7.5 micrograms/dL

Assume a child has 4L of blood. That is 40 dL. That means major loss of IQ happens when there are 300 micrograms of lead in the blood. For comparison, a 22lr bullet may contain 3gr, or 3,000,000 micrograms of lead. Note that my figures are skewed because 300 micrograms in the blood means > 300micrograms in body. Let's round up and say it takes a 10 miligrams of lead in the body to have an IQ impairment in a child. That still means that a single 22lr bullet contains 300 toxic doses.

These are rough figures, and certainly lead is not that easy to absorb, but you get the point. That bird only needs to get one bullet fragment in his gizzard to be dead.

M. Sage
08-19-2007, 5:59 PM
About bird populations: Turkeys, I believe, eat mainly things like bugs, plants, etc. They aren't carrion-eaters (are they?). Unlike mammals, bugs and plants don't have an affinity for lead, and don't pick it up. And bugs and plants also don't get shot at.

I was talking mainly about lead in dirt. If dirt-borne lead sitting on the surface is an issue, then Chabot (and a ton of other ranges, for that matter) should be covered in dead birds. I've picked up, examined and dropped a ton of projectiles (over on 4&5, but I'm sure it's more common over on the public lines), and even brought a few home. I can tell you that on ranges 4&5 up there, the reason the ground crunches under your feet down-range isn't because of the gravel, it's half bullet fragments and half broken clays. With as many chunks of bullet are sitting around on the surface, waiting for a bird to pick it up and put it in it's gullet as gravel, there should be a horrendous number of dead birds in the Oakland hills. Chabot is also home to quail and all the rest of the feathered friends you can find around here.

Somehow, they seem to be avoiding the lead on the ground.

There was a mention of coyotes, too. Seems like someone would notice if coyotes and other scavengers were catching lead poisoning from scavenging gut piles or lost prey.

CCWFacts
08-19-2007, 7:10 PM
There was a mention of coyotes, too. Seems like someone would notice if coyotes and other scavengers were catching lead poisoning from scavenging gut piles or lost prey.

Maybe... but coyotes (and almost every other animal except pandas) have much higher reproductive rates, and shorter life expectancies, than condors. And stuff passes through a coyote in less than a day, whereas a fragment of lead could stay in a gizzard for weeks or months, slowly getting ground into absorbable particles. You would have to compare the condor with other scavenging birds, and I'm not sure if there are any others that share space with it.

One thing with environmental questions like this, it's almost impossible to run experiments to answer them. The global warming issue is the same thing. You can use deductive logic to come to conclusions but you can't run an experiment so it's hard to be absolutely persuasive one way or the other. That's why, instead of having proof, we get statements like "300 scientists believe..." which is not the same as a scientific conclusion.

If there is doubt as to what is going on, what's the right course of action? I personally would take the route of caution. If it turns out that lead bullets aren't causing any harm, then we can always go back to them later. And in this case there are alternatives available. For plinking, powdered iron bullets would be cheaper to manufacturer, and for hunting, solid copper and bismuth would be viable options.

CCWFacts
08-19-2007, 7:55 PM
And btw, it sure would be nice to be able to answer these questions with certainty. And it could be done. The major manufacturers could easily tag their lead with isotopic labels. It would have no impact on ammo price and it would let us know, with certainty, where the lead ends up in the environment. This kind of thing would be one of those cases where a major company (like the ammo companies) could do something that would help the environment years from now, at insignificant cost.

M. Sage
08-19-2007, 9:05 PM
The isotopic labels are a great idea. Powdered iron, I just realized, would take a lot of re-legislation to get around armor-piercing bullet legislation for a lot of calibers.

In a close race, rights come first. Otherwise, we get our rights eaten away by junk-science peddlers who don't care about whatever false cause they're spouting about this week.

I can't sit by and have my rights wiped out for every shadow that looks scary at a distance. Show me some substance, and I'll consider it.

CCWFacts
08-19-2007, 9:19 PM
The isotopic labels are a great idea.

Thank you! Actually what they really really should do with this bill is make some cool win-win leg. compromises. The ammo manufacturers could agree to isotopic labeling (which costs them almost nothing, and will produce wonderfully valuable data over the years). They could, in turn, get environmental liability protection; they will need this if they do the labeling. Finally they could agree to voluntarily promote non-lead (powdered iron, copper, bismuth) bullets for outdoor use. It costs them little or nothing, consumers get bullets which cost the same or maybe less, and the shooting community gets to be the environmental good guys.

Powdered iron, I just realized, would take a lot of re-legislation to get around armor-piercing bullet legislation for a lot of calibers.

Ah! No! I can't quote the exact place in the code but the fed. "armor piercing ammo" definition has exemptions for bullets used for environmental compliance. I'm pretty sure that powdered iron bullets are already fine, both at the fed and state level. And, I'm sure we all know this, but powdered iron bullets are probably less vest-piercing than regular lead bullets.

And they should be cheaper. Iron is cheaper than lead and manufacturing would be simpler. No pouring molten lead. Just fill the jacket with iron powder and some binder, crimp, and you're done. The ammo companies should do this regardless of legislative requirements; it's a smart idea in every way.

In a close race, rights come first. Otherwise, we get our rights eaten away by junk-science peddlers who don't care about whatever false cause they're spouting about this week.

I see your point on that, and I would definitely say that good old lead ammo should always be available for training and self-defense use, but hunting is another whole thing. There are already heaps of regulations.

What about another win-win, like expanding hunting season (more days), but no more lead bullets?

M. Sage
08-19-2007, 9:32 PM
The only part of the law I remember about AP handgun ammo is that a core "made entirely or mostly" of steel (would iron count? I wouldn't want to test it...) and some other materials like tungsten (don't remember if iron's on the list...) is illegal.

The changeover in production is what would cost a ton of money. And, not knowing a ton about these kind of bullets... How would they work expansion-wise? Totally frangible won't work, it would reduce penetration too much on larger species (deer, elk, bear) and really screw up large amounts of meat. They'd have to be capable of controlled expansion, and not lose a whole lot of their mass on the way through.

CCWFacts
08-19-2007, 9:52 PM
The only part of the law I remember about AP handgun ammo is that a core "made entirely or mostly" of steel (would iron count? I wouldn't want to test it...) and some other materials like tungsten (don't remember if iron's on the list...) is illegal.

There's an explicit exemption for bullets designed to meet environmental regulations.

(hunting with iron powder bullets)

Wouldn't work. They basically turn into powder on impact. I guess you could use them for squirrel hunting. I'm suggesting these for recreational shooting (target, plinking). Hunting anything larger than a squirrel would need solid copper bullets. Corbon already makes these in their DPX line: http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/Corbon%20.45%20ACP.htm

So there is already real-world experience with them. I assume copper is more expensive than lead, but how many in-the-field shots do hunters take in a season? (I've never been hunting so I don't know.)

The other hunting bullet option is bismuth. It's close to the price of lead (maybe cheaper these days?). The problem is it's not malleable so it will fragment rather than mushrooming like a lead bullet would. But the cool thing about bismuth is, you get the approval of environmentalists... but deep down inside, you get to smile because you know that bismuth is radioactive.

M. Sage
08-19-2007, 10:50 PM
So there is already real-world experience with them. I assume copper is more expensive than lead, but how many in-the-field shots do hunters take in a season? (I've never been hunting so I don't know.)

Usually? Less than five. However... There's practice time. You need to sight your rifle with the ammo that you'll be hunting with. And it's best to practice with the same ammo, since you need to be used to where it's going to be going.

The copper bullets are horribly expensive. I know that if they'd gone through with a ban like this when I was growing up, I'd have never been able to afford the joy of knowing what it's like to hunt (something I'm keen to do again.)

For recreational shooting, I doubt they'll be churning out the calibers I love for it - namely 7.62x54R - for as cheap as it's available now (about $.12/round) or 7.62x25mm (bought two boxes of 72 for $12 each at the Cow Palace) for that matter.

Guess I'll have to make a big ammo buy, just in case.

CavTrooper
08-20-2007, 1:07 AM
I would like to see viable alternatives to lead bullets mass produced BEFORE legislation forces the ammo companies to produce them. However, since this is a CALIFORNIA issue for the most part, the copper, bismuth, hevi-shot, etc. bullets will remain outrageously priced. Barnes bullets and Hevi-Shot are two companies that produce non-lead alternatives and niether is cheap! I personally purchased 200 hevi-shot bullets to try on coyotes, however I cant bring myself to open the boxes and build loads with them because they are so dang expensive! One of these days I will, but not until I have to or the prices come down.

sargenv
08-20-2007, 6:09 AM
you know that bismuth is radioactive

Um, if bismuth is radioactive, then all those people who've been taking Pepto Bismol have been irradiating themselves for years. Bismuth is pretty much inert as far as radiation is concerned at least the grade we use in Pepto and the same goes for bismuth shot. Unfortunately, if you've never seen the price of bismuth shot. It's quite prohibitive to all but the richest person. Comparitively it's like $10 a pound or more. Compare that to lead shot which is $1.25 a pound or steel shot which is about the same as lead these days.

Barnes has made all copper bullets in their line for a number of years (Barnes X bullets) and they appear to work pretty well. But then copper can be toxic too, just not quite as bad as lead.

CCWFacts
08-20-2007, 7:15 AM
Um, if bismuth is radioactive, then all those people who've been taking Pepto Bismol have been irradiating themselves for years. Bismuth is pretty much inert as far as radiation is concerned at least the grade we use in Pepto and the same goes for bismuth shot.

And yet... it is radioactive!

No one had thought that bismuth was radioactive, until someone did some theoretical quantum physics analysis of the nucleus, and found out that it is not stable and should decay. Then some researchers set up an experiment to see if they could detect this radiation. It puts out so little radiation that it is almost undetectable with the most sensitive experimental setup. But they did find it, so the theory predicted something which had not been observed before, which is the kind of thing that makes them happy.

The half-life is 20 billion billion years. This was all discovered just a few years ago.

http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/news/17319

CCWFacts
08-20-2007, 7:34 AM
By the way, for readers who don't know what a half-lives and alpha particles mean... bismuth may be theoretically considered "radioactive" but for any practical purpose, it is not, its radiation level is so low that it is almost beyond detection with even the most advanced apparatus, and it should not be thought of as radioactive, it is safe, and in fact your own body emits more radiation than bismuth does.

M. Sage
08-20-2007, 5:15 PM
It's quite prohibitive to all but the richest person. Comparitively it's like $10 a pound or more. Compare that to lead shot which is $1.25 a pound or steel shot which is about the same as lead these days.

This would also absolutely screw the handgunners who love to get cheap (or free) wheel weights and cast their own bullets.

CCWFacts
08-20-2007, 5:59 PM
This isn't my area of knowledge... but some smart company should start selling pressable iron powder for bullet-making handgun shooters. Casting your own bullets out of lead might be a fun hobby but it is not safe, period. It would be possible to sell an iron powder with a bit of binder in it that could be thermoset, crimped, or cured. This would be totally safe to do at home and wouldn't require melting lead. It would be cheap, too. Scrap iron goes for in the $300 / ton range: http://www.metalprices.com/FreeSite/metals/fe/fe_export.asp . Converted to powder and sold, it would retail in the $1/lb range, cheaper than lead.

In fact... what would be really cool would be to combine:

http://www.corbins.com/rfjm.htm

with powdered iron+binder, and get really cheap, 100% recycled, safe (to produce), environmentally sound bullets.

M. Sage
08-20-2007, 6:02 PM
Casting your own bullets out of lead might be a fun hobby but it is not safe, period.

What fun hobby is? Most of the things I consider fun either require me to sign a waiver or involve some personal risk of some sort.

I use to live next to a guy who cast and loaded his own. Seemed pretty safe to me, he never harmed himself in the year that I lived next to him.

CavTrooper
08-20-2007, 6:14 PM
Me thinks CCWFacts owns a powdered iron factory.

just kidding.

Id like to see more talk of cheap HUNTING bullet alternatives as that is what this is directed towards, they say the condors are eating the lead out of dead critters, not off the shooting range.

CCWFacts
08-20-2007, 6:41 PM
Me thinks CCWFacts owns a powdered iron factory.

Hey what with ammo prices, lead cleanup prices (including at indoor ranges), etc, some cheaper and safer alternatives could find a good market. How about a bullet with an aluminum case, like the Blazer, and a powdered iron bullet? I used to go shooting all the time, but with ammo prices going up to $0.50 / rnd, I don't go so much any more. I'd love to somehow get into that business, and the way to do it is to enter with a unique product that has unique advantages.

Id like to see more talk of cheap HUNTING bullet alternatives as that is what this is directed towards, they say the condors are eating the lead out of dead critters, not off the shooting range.

That's the one thing I'm wondering about most in this whole thing. M.Sage said above that a typical hunter might shoot only 5 rounds "in the field" (at animals) in a hunting season (year). That's entirely believable to me. That's not much lead. On a day at the range, most people go through > 100 rounds, and can do that many times a year. I'm really wondering, is it actual hunting bullets, or range / plinking bullets that are the problem? My first guess would be it's outdoor ranges in wilderness areas that introduce literally tons of lead every year, and it gets moved around by animals, rain and wind. One range probably introduces more lead than all the hunting activity in the state. I would guess.

CavTrooper
08-20-2007, 6:52 PM
The way Ive read the whole argument is that the condors are eating the dead animals that hunters shoot but let get away or scavenging gut piles, thats where they pick up the lead. Ive never heard that the lead is coming from shooting ranges, that is what leads me to belive it is mere anti hunting propaganda rather than facts. Arent there vultures in CA as well, how about crows? They are all scavenging birds and being that the population of vultures and crows is many, many times that of the condor, using the ANTIs' argument shouldnt we see piles of dead vultures and crows all over the state?

CCWFacts
08-20-2007, 7:34 PM
Looking at it logically:

Fact: a few condors are known to have died of lead. In a population that small, that is a problem.

Question: Where is this lead coming from?

We can list possible sources:

1. Old paint

2. Old industrial use: a lead processing factory, etc

3. Old mining operations (are there any in California?)

4. Other lead use: lead scrap heaps (linotype, wheel weights, etc)

5. Naturally occurring soil minerals (is there natural soil / surface lead in California?)

6. Illegal lead disposal. This must be happening. How much?

7. Actual hunting bullets: probably less than 10 tons of lead / year?

8. Outdoor shooting ranges in wilderness areas: must be > 10 tons per year per range

9. Old shooting residues: people have been shooting in CA's wilderness for > 100 years now

10. Military training use: the military leaves a lot of lead in its wilderness training areas. How much?

That's how I would approach this question. Most of these questions are answerable.

otteray
08-20-2007, 8:40 PM
Casting your own bullets out of lead might be a fun hobby but it is not safe, period.


Really? Not safe, period?
I used to melt lead in the late '50's and the '60's with my dad when I was a kid. He made bullet moulds.
I've been casting myself now, on and off for several years, a few 3 or 4 hour sessions a year, making hundreds of bullets that I handle and reload throughout the year, without gloves or a mask.
My blood's lead level is well within the normal range.

Now, letting a drop of water or sweat drop into the molten lead, that is unsafe!

Prc329
08-20-2007, 9:31 PM
Why aren't other scavenger birds endangered due to lead poisoning?

I think that is the question we need to ask.

gazzavc
08-20-2007, 10:38 PM
Whats even more amusing are all these areas in California that have been utterly polluted by mega-conglomerate corporations, that are killing wildlife at a far greater rate than the bleeding condors, but yet nobodys banning the use of these companies products. In other words its OK for the big companies to f*** up the land and poison critters (and humans) but lets try and pin the blame on a group (gun owners) and an activity (shooting) that we really don't like anyway and see if it sticks......

M. Sage
08-21-2007, 5:41 PM
Looking at it logically:

Fact: a few condors are known to have died of lead. In a population that small, that is a problem.

Question: Where is this lead coming from?

We can list possible sources:

1. Old paint

2. Old industrial use: a lead processing factory, etc

3. Old mining operations (are there any in California?)

4. Other lead use: lead scrap heaps (linotype, wheel weights, etc)

5. Naturally occurring soil minerals (is there natural soil / surface lead in California?)

6. Illegal lead disposal. This must be happening. How much?

7. Actual hunting bullets: probably less than 10 tons of lead / year?

8. Outdoor shooting ranges in wilderness areas: must be > 10 tons per year per range

9. Old shooting residues: people have been shooting in CA's wilderness for > 100 years now

10. Military training use: the military leaves a lot of lead in its wilderness training areas. How much?

That's how I would approach this question. Most of these questions are answerable.

8, 9, and 10 I think I covered pretty well. If the lead sitting on and in the ground at shooting ranges is dangerous to condors, it would be killing other species for the same reason. It wouldn't be running them extinct, but I've yet to wade through dead or dying birds on my way to change my targets.

#3: Err.. yeah. Lots of 'em. Look up the years immediately after 1849.

Old industrial use... like shipyards? Lead has (had, it's banned for a lot of them now) a lot of industrial uses.

Illegal lead dumping should be falling off, since the stuff is finally worth paying someone for so you can recycle it.

I'd be surprised if hunters state-wide sent even 5 tons of lead downrange at game.

halifax
08-21-2007, 8:18 PM
Looking at it logically:

Fact: a few condors are known to have died of lead. In a population that small, that is a problem.

Question: Where is this lead coming from?

We can list possible sources:

1. Old paint

2. Old industrial use: a lead processing factory, etc

3. Old mining operations (are there any in California?)

4. Other lead use: lead scrap heaps (linotype, wheel weights, etc)

5. Naturally occurring soil minerals (is there natural soil / surface lead in California?)

6. Illegal lead disposal. This must be happening. How much?

7. Actual hunting bullets: probably less than 10 tons of lead / year?

8. Outdoor shooting ranges in wilderness areas: must be > 10 tons per year per range

9. Old shooting residues: people have been shooting in CA's wilderness for > 100 years now

10. Military training use: the military leaves a lot of lead in its wilderness training areas. How much?

That's how I would approach this question. Most of these questions are answerable.


How many tons of lead were deposited literally everywhere from 60+ years of leaded gasoline usage? Must be a few tons I sure.