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Fjold
12-26-2012, 4:46 PM
I am working with some city officials (not Bakersfield) in a CCW unfriendly county to draft and implement an LTC policy for the city.

What I need is an FBI, Dept of Justice, or other official government report on the number of LEO deaths caused (committed by) LTC/CCW holders. I guess my Google-Fu is not up to the task as I cannot find any report on these statistics so I'm reaching out to all of you computer search wizards for help.

I've found a report from the anti-gun Violence Policy Center but they are not a governmental authority.

Since many of the heavy (research and knowledge) hitters hang out in the 2nd Amend forum, I'm asking here along with in the CCW forum.

If you can help, I and everyone in the city would appreciate it. And who knows, your city may be the next one that we can get to issue LTCs.

Meplat
12-26-2012, 4:52 PM
Boy! I'm no kind of wizard, but I can tell you the answer will be zero. Just can't say where to find it in black and white.

Spyder
12-26-2012, 5:06 PM
I bet it's slightly higher than zero, but the numbers are going to be incredibly low.

No clue where to even begin looking though.

HowardW56
12-26-2012, 5:10 PM
Someone will show up with the information, but don't trust anything from VPC...

Manolito
12-26-2012, 5:13 PM
I don't know of one report that will give you what you want you may have to peruse each year. I will keep looking the attached is the FBI statistics on LEO deaths.

http://www.fbi.gov/fbi-search?q=law+enforcement+death+statistics&siteurl=www.fbi.gov%2F#output=xml_no_dtd&client=google-csbe&cx=004748461833896749646%3Ae41lgwqry7w&cof=FORID%3A10%3BNB%3A1&ie=UTF-8&siteurl=www.fbi.gov%2F&q=law+enforcement+death+statistics


This one on work place violence is pretty good also. Note most are not from carried guns but from robberies by armed bad guys interesting article.

http://www.fbi.gov/stats-services/publications/law-enforcement-bulletin/january2011/workplace_violence_prevention

Spyder
12-26-2012, 5:26 PM
http://www.opposingviews.com/i/society/crime/legal-concealed-gun-carriers-are-quite-law-abiding

Librarian
12-26-2012, 5:30 PM
Michigan has their CPL violations reports at http://www.michigan.gov/msp/0,4643,7-123-1591_3503_4654-77621--,00.html

For example, they have "First degree murder of a peace officer or a corrections officer committed while the peace officer or corrections officer is lawfully engaged in the performance of any of his or her duties." - 1 incident, July 2010 thru June 2011, Pending

In Michigan, "A license to carry a concealed pistol issued on or after July 1, 2003, but before July 1, 2006, is valid for 5 years. A license to carry a concealed pistol issued or renewed on or after July 1, 2006, is valid until the applicant's date of birth that falls not less than 4 years or more than 5 years after the license is effective."

In FY 2010, 87,637 issued, 451 revoked for felony conviction of some kind.
2009 86,661 / 435
2008 66,446 / 301
2007 26,578 / 290
2006 23,790 / 246

Given the about-5-year life of a MI CPL, seems like there were about 291,000 active CPL, 1,723 felony convictions of CPL holders - 0.591% rate.

Florida and Texas have similar info. No other states do so good a job yet; Feds do not seem to collect that.

ETA - and that VPC report? Complete crap. Here's the refutation - http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2095754. I helped research that.

Guntech
12-26-2012, 5:33 PM
Well to be fair Detroit is in Michigan, so of course you will have an inordinate amount of people committing felonies.

taperxz
12-26-2012, 5:42 PM
Michigan has their CPL violations reports at http://www.michigan.gov/msp/0,4643,7-123-1591_3503_4654-77621--,00.html

For example, they have "First degree murder of a peace officer or a corrections officer committed while the peace officer or corrections officer is lawfully engaged in the performance of any of his or her duties." - 1 incident, July 2010 thru June 2011, Pending

In Michigan, "A license to carry a concealed pistol issued on or after July 1, 2003, but before July 1, 2006, is valid for 5 years. A license to carry a concealed pistol issued or renewed on or after July 1, 2006, is valid until the applicant's date of birth that falls not less than 4 years or more than 5 years after the license is effective."

In FY 2010, 87,637 issued, 451 revoked for felony conviction of some kind.
2009 86,661 / 435
2008 66,446 / 301
2007 26,578 / 290
2006 23,790 / 246

Given the about-5-year life of a MI CPL, seems like there were about 291,000 active CPL, 1,723 felony convictions of CPL holders - 0.591% rate.

Florida and Texas have similar info. No other states do so good a job yet; Feds do not seem to collect that.

ETA - and that VPC report? Complete crap. Here's the refutation - http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2095754. I helped research that.

Keep in mind too that the felony convictions may not have had anything to do with the firearm. You could have had felony DUI, white collar crimes, accidental deaths that were considered involuntary manslaughter ect.

Meplat
12-26-2012, 5:49 PM
Here are some stats from Texas. Don't know how much good it will do. It is just one year but others are listed. Unless you are willing to accept a non-government source I think you will have to put the whole construct together one bit at a time.


http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/RSD/CHL/Reports/ConvictionRatesReport2011.pdf

Librarian
12-26-2012, 5:50 PM
Keep in mind too that the felony convictions may not have had anything to do with the firearm. You could have had felony DUI, white collar crimes, accidental deaths that were considered involuntary manslaughter ect.

Right - but I figured Fjold could look for all occurrences of "First degree murder of a peace officer or a corrections officer " in the 10 years of reports for himself. My guess is he'll find fewer than 10.

taperxz
12-26-2012, 5:58 PM
Right - but I figured Fjold could look for all occurrences of "First degree murder of a peace officer or a corrections officer " in the 10 years of reports for himself. My guess is he'll find fewer than 10.

OH YA! I wasn't questioning you or your data. Just making clear that, that one line of data showed felony convictions of concealed weapon holders overall and not pointing fingers at the firearm itself:)

Manolito
12-26-2012, 6:07 PM
Librarian
Do we have a data base by county of the number of permits in california?
nobody wants to gather these statistics it seems. Could it be the Sheriffs not releasing the information?

Fjold
12-26-2012, 6:14 PM
There are actually two VPC reports, one of citizens and LEOs killed by CCW holders that is full of crap and a second one that involves only LEO victims that also has some errors in it but more specifics:

https://www.vpc.org/fact_sht/ccwlawenforcement.pdf

It list 13 LEOs killed by CCW permit holders since 2007 but their count is wrong along with including one non-documented case.

The report lists 6 officers killed by 6 CCW holders who used handguns. (One case in NY they erroneously list two LEOs as victims when only one of the victims was an LEO, while the attacker was himself a corrections officer.

It also lists 6 officers killed by rifles including one full auto AK47. These attackers used rifles but had CCW permits so they try to inflate the statistics.

It also lists one undocumented case in Illinois but offers no details because all they found was a mention in an Illinois State police annual report with no proof.


I need something to backstop or refute this information from a government source.

HowardW56
12-26-2012, 6:24 PM
Librarian
Do we have a data base by county of the number of permits in california?
nobody wants to gather these statistics it seems. Could it be the Sheriffs not releasing the information?


http://www.calgunsfoundation.org/resources/downloads/category/17-2011audit.html

http://www.calgunsfoundation.org/resources/ccw-initiative.html

Librarian
12-26-2012, 7:16 PM
Librarian
Do we have a data base by county of the number of permits in california?
nobody wants to gather these statistics it seems. Could it be the Sheriffs not releasing the information?

http://www.calgunsfoundation.org/resources/downloads/file/41-2011-ca-doj-data-active-ltc-report.html

It's a year out of date - I keep hoping the new data will be along any time now.

Librarian
12-26-2012, 7:37 PM
There are actually two VPC reports, one of citizens and LEOs killed by CCW holders that is full of crap and a second one that involves only LEO victims that also has some errors in it but more specifics:

https://www.vpc.org/fact_sht/ccwlawenforcement.pdf

It list 13 LEOs killed by CCW permit holders since 2007 but their count is wrong along with including one non-documented case.

The report lists 6 officers killed by 6 CCW holders who used handguns. (One case in NY they erroneously list two LEOs as victims when only one of the victims was an LEO, while the attacker was himself a corrections officer.

It also lists 6 officers killed by rifles including one full auto AK47. These attackers used rifles but had CCW permits so they try to inflate the statistics.

It also lists one undocumented case in Illinois but offers no details because all they found was a mention in an Illinois State police annual report with no proof.


I need something to backstop or refute this information from a government source.
Since it doesn't COME from a government source, and you were easily able to dismiss half, why would a 'government source' be necessary? The VPC report, like most of their work, is unreliable.

jpigeon
12-26-2012, 8:44 PM
Boy! I'm no kind of wizard, but I can tell you the answer will be zero. Just can't say where to find it in black and white.

+1. lets go with zero

Fjold
12-26-2012, 9:35 PM
Since it doesn't COME from a government source, and you were easily able to dismiss half, why would a 'government source' be necessary? The VPC report, like most of their work, is unreliable.

I'm dealing with a CLEO who is paranoid that LTCers will endanger his LEOs, I'm trying to prove to him that LTCers are the least of his worries.

Librarian
12-26-2012, 10:34 PM
I'm dealing with a CLEO who is paranoid that LTCers will endanger his LEOs, I'm trying to prove to him that LTCers are the least of his worries.

Yes, saw that later in the LTC forum.

All I can suggest is actual info from suggested FL, MI, TX - nobody in .gov bothers to refute ravings of partisan organizations.

Fjold
12-27-2012, 2:40 PM
Maybe no news is good news, if the FBI, DOJ, etc don't have any reports like this it may be that it's not a significant enough number to develop a report on.

IVC
12-27-2012, 3:08 PM
A good start is to use the VPC report, including the cases you can dismiss, as an upper bound. If you use your post #14, you have an excellent starting point of only 4 nationwide cases (exclude 1 undocumented, 6 rifles and 2 assaulted by an officer).

So, your current best answer should be: "according to the most biased anti-gun organization, we have no more than 4 potential cases in 5 years nationwide."

Kukuforguns
12-27-2012, 4:34 PM
A good start is to use the VPC report, including the cases you can dismiss, as an upper bound. If you use your post #14, you have an excellent starting point of only 4 nationwide cases (exclude 1 undocumented, 6 rifles and 2 assaulted by an officer).

So, your current best answer should be: "according to the most biased anti-gun organization, we have no more than 4 potential cases in 5 years nationwide."That is how I would handle it.

1. Tell CLEO that there are no government reports that track this data because the number is so small that it does not justify the cost
2. Tell the CLEO how many active CCW/LTCs there are throughout the U.S.
3. Tell the CLEO that the most comprehensive study of the subject was published by the VPC, an anti-gun group
4. Tell the CLEO that the VPC was only able to identify 13 homicide cases in the past 5 years involving licensees and LEOs
5. Tell the CLEO that the VPC study is inflated for the reasons you have already identified
6. Tell the CLEO that the danger to his officers per licensee per year is .000000325 (or whatever number you calculate), which is much less than the risk a normal LEO faces when s/he drives to work in the morning.