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FourTenJaeger
12-24-2012, 8:26 PM
I dont play around with Blackpowder, So keep your whips inside their holsters. :(

Could someone, hypothetically, use a small charge of smokeless instead of BP, in a BP gun? Obviously the smokeless would be less of a charge, But would it work, or just blow the gun up?

PS: My point is using a miniscule amount of smokeless compared to BP. A full smokeless load the same size as a BP load would be a hand grenade. So please, keep your ''retard'' comments to yourself, And if you have an answer, share it.

If it is possible, Have you done it? How'd it turn out?

saki302
12-24-2012, 10:58 PM
You will blow yourself up.

Smokeless has a higher burn rate compared to BP, regardless of the charge- and percussion caps and those nipples with the large flash holes are nowhere near adequate to contain a smokeless burn.

They made a smokeless capable ML revolver in England many years ago, but I never did find any photos of it.

I suspect they made a system using modern cartridge primers for ignition to get around the percussion cap problem.

Divernhunter
12-24-2012, 11:13 PM
I believe Savage made a BP rifle that would work with a certain smokless powder. I think it was IMR4227. That was the only one I know of. Any others and you should be sure your medical and/or life insurance is paid up. Just do not try it.

See and not one retard remark!

FourTenJaeger
12-25-2012, 12:26 AM
Now that's what I was looking for. Proper answers for me to take down in my notes.

Thanks!

GOEX FFF
12-25-2012, 2:17 AM
Smokeless in a Muzzle-loader is a serious recipe for disaster.

gmsBF6CXs18

Mg911guy
12-25-2012, 2:32 AM
Just use some Goex FFF Black Powder. :D Really... Not worth hurting yourself over a few $$.

Eljay
12-25-2012, 8:19 AM
Is there a particular problem you're trying to solve? Because legally speaking there are a couple of brands of black powder substitute which is legally smokeless powder (although it creates quite a bit of smoke, it just has a higher ignition point and isn't an explosive by the legislative definition). Pyrodex and 777 powder in particular. But they are specially formulated not only to not blow up the guns but approximately match the power by volume so they can be measured the same way. (777 is about 15% hotter than real BP).

Cowboy T
12-25-2012, 8:58 AM
Waitasec...that video demonstration used 120 grains of HS-6??

:shock::shock:

My God...no wonder the gun blew up! You try 120 grains of HS-6 in a .460 Weatherby Magnum, and it'll blow up like that, too! And that Weatherby's one of the strongest actions built, too.

That "demonstration" doesn't even come close to saying why one shouldn't use smokeless powder at all under any circumstances. Rather, this "demonstration" only shows that you shouldn't use a GYNORMOUS charge of pistol powder in ANY rifle.

Now, a much, much lower charge of, say, Trail Boss in that same muzzleloader, that surely would've given a much different result.

120 grains of HS-6...WOW.... :no::no:

CSACANNONEER
12-25-2012, 9:05 AM
Pyrodex and other BP substitutes are smokeless powders designed to be used in frontloaders. Using anything else is pure stupidity and will put you at the top of the list for a Darwin award.

It's not really a question of BP vs smokeless. It's about burn rates and pressures that differrent powders (including different grades of real BP) generate. 2 grains of a fast burning powder can generate more pressure than 25 grains of another powder. In other words, you can't just substitute one smokeless powder for another without knowing what you are doing let alone, substituting some random smokeless powder for a certain charge of a certain grade of BP.

Cowboy T
12-25-2012, 9:20 AM
That's why it would've been appropriate for that YouTube demonstration to also try it with a much lighter charge of something like Trail Boss. If they're going to demonstrate why no quantity of smokeless powder is 'safe" in a BP rifle like that, then they really needed to do it with a charge that someone might actually consider using, for example, some of the .40-70 Sharps starting charges and show what happens. I don't know of anyone who uses 120gr of HS-6 in any gun.

VooDooV
12-25-2012, 9:24 AM
I read or thought I read that BP is messured by volume grains and not by actual weight grain,,,, Something like eg. a messuring cylinder (cup) topped off with water, The water weighed weighs in at 40 grains, Use that same cylinder/cup with BP is considered 40 grains.
Is this just the oldschool?
Its been so long since Ive fired my BP arms Ive not stayed in touch with how it all works, I just have 2 preset messures for the pistol and 50 carbine and dont remember the powder rating used.

kendog4570
12-25-2012, 9:37 AM
I dont play around with Blackpowder, So keep your whips inside their holsters. :(

Could someone, hypothetically, use a small charge of smokeless instead of BP, in a BP gun? Obviously the smokeless would be less of a charge, But would it work, or just blow the gun up?

PS: My point is using a miniscule amount of smokeless compared to BP. A full smokeless load the same size as a BP load would be a hand grenade. So please, keep your ''retard'' comments to yourself, And if you have an answer, share it.

If it is possible, Have you done it? How'd it turn out?

It is definitely not recommended.
I would not use it as a substitute for continued shooting.

HOWEVER... I am quite certain some type of smokeless could be used by a THINKING person. Especially to get another gun.

CSACANNONEER
12-25-2012, 10:31 AM
It is definitely not recommended.
I would not use it as a substitute for continued shooting.

HOWEVER... I am quite certain some type of smokeless could be used by a THINKING person. Especially to get another gun.



YES, the types of smokeless powder which can be safely used are BP substitutes!

CSACANNONEER
12-25-2012, 10:36 AM
I read or thought I read that BP is messured by volume grains and not by actual weight grain,,,, Something like eg. a messuring cylinder (cup) topped off with water, The water weighed weighs in at 40 grains, Use that same cylinder/cup with BP is considered 40 grains.
Is this just the oldschool?
Its been so long since Ive fired my BP arms Ive not stayed in touch with how it all works, I just have 2 preset messures for the pistol and 50 carbine and dont remember the powder rating used.

Have you ever seen how most modern cartridges are loaded? The powder throwers measure smokeless powder BY VOLUME too.

kendog4570
12-25-2012, 10:57 AM
YES, the types of smokeless powder which can be safely used are BP substitutes!


Who said anything about safe? All I said was if you HAD to, you could do it. One wouldn't do it as a matter of standard practice, but you could get away with it. The knowledge might save your life one day.

CSACANNONEER
12-25-2012, 11:24 AM
Who said anything about safe? All I said was if you HAD to, you could do it. One wouldn't do it as a matter of standard practice, but you could get away with it. The knowledge might safe your life one day.

The knowledge I've gained from shooting muzzleloaders ranging from .177 cal to 3" field artillary and loading modern catridges from .25acp to 50BMG will save my life by NOT being stupid and holding a pipe bomb up to my face while igniting it. If all I had was a frontloader and smokeless powder, I'd either make my own BP or figure out something else to do with the modern powder and muzzleloader. I would NEVER EVER attempt to commit suicide in the name of trying to save my life. Please, put these thoughts out of your head unless you are a rocket scientist with extensive knowledge of muzzleloaders, black powder, and modern powders. I only have one friend who fits that description and doubt that there are more than a dozen in the country. So, if you're not one of them, PLEASE, PLEASE, stop thinking about it.

6mmintl
12-25-2012, 1:44 PM
Often thought that using 6-8 grains of a pistol powder (4227/2400/#7) or 12-16 grains of AA5744 or IMR sr 4759 might be a good emergency load in a modern muzzleloader/inline or bolt gun (no break open guns) with pressure less or at the BPCR loads though I have never tried it.

Might new a loaner/doaner/expendable rifle to try in a bunker with a long string to see if feasable as I have never seen anyone try/demonstrate "The limit".

Anyone? kendog 4570? I have a long string and sandbag?

gunboat
12-25-2012, 1:52 PM
Interesting discussion, but are there reports of any tests done by labs such a hp white that confirm the "deadly hazard" of using smokeless powder in a muzzle loader?
Savage made a rifle to do so, therefore it must be compatible to nipple vent, etc.
We all use smokeless loads in trapdoors etc, which are only a baby step from muzzle loaders. In fact the factory loads for these old cartridges use smokeless.
I understand the modern BP weapons are only BP proved so the manufacturer is not going to Ok it. Also if it is smokeless proved there
are probably other legalities that become problematic --

I do not advocate the use of smokeless powder in BP weapons but I have not seen any technical reason not to. Just because everyone says no does not make it so.
my tuppence

PS -- what about cartridge cylinders in BP replicas? they use smokeless --

gunboat
12-25-2012, 1:52 PM
sorry duplicate post -- no idea why

--

FourTenJaeger
12-25-2012, 2:05 PM
Interesting answers.

Im not trying to solve a particular problem, No, Just trying to gain some knowledge and know-how.

What would one use to load in a modern BP Replica, Such as an 1858? Would 777 suffice?

Same process as loading with real BP? Wad, Lube, etc.

kendog4570
12-25-2012, 3:35 PM
My thought was, if I were involved in something, like the uprising in the Warsaw ghetto in the early 1940's for instance, I would damn sure use anything I could to send one bullet that would enable me to secure more suitable arms.
I agree with 6mmintl, I am sure there is an equivalent powder and load that will work in a pinch.
It would be interesting to do an experiment. I have a T/C 50 cal donor barrel that could be used for such an experiment.

If I am at the local black powder muzzle loader match I wouldn't even think of it. 60 grains of 3F behind a patched .530 round ball has one many a turkey and ribbons over the last 25 years.

Sabot
12-26-2012, 7:55 AM
The NAA .22 used to come with load instructions that stated you could use 1 gr. Bullseye.

Theodore Edward
12-27-2012, 6:25 PM
The manufacturers say don't do it. Good enough for me.

Eljay
12-27-2012, 7:18 PM
Interesting answers.

Im not trying to solve a particular problem, No, Just trying to gain some knowledge and know-how.

What would one use to load in a modern BP Replica, Such as an 1858? Would 777 suffice?

Same process as loading with real BP? Wad, Lube, etc.

If you're using 777 you still measure by volume, but it's about 15% hotter so if you're trying to replicate a specific load or avoid the maximum load you need to consider that. With my 1858 I'm never all that close to the max load and it has a pretty broad sweet spot in terms of which load is the most accurate so if I set my measure to 25gr I could use either 777 or Pyrodex or real BP and the only difference would be in the smell.