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View Full Version : Can I rent/own/buy guns out of state within 5 years of being placed on a 5150 hold?


QWi
12-24-2012, 8:09 PM
Hey CalGuns,

I'm not asking for professional legal advice here, but I am curious as to whether anyone knows the stipulations behind this.

Say someone is placed on California WIC 5150, and they move out of a state. As most of you know, a 5150 carries a 5 year prohibition from firearms (California WIC Section 8103). If that person moves out of state, would they be able to purchase/rent/own firearms within that 5-year period without any problems? Or does it still apply if you move, or travel out of state?

I'm interested in renting firearms, mainly so I can learn how to shoot. However, I cannot do so in California until I am 22 because I was placed on California WIC 5150. I unfortunately was having a bad day and said the wrong thing in front of the wrong person at the wrong time. I wasn't thinking about what I was saying. I was discharged without being prescribed any medications. I've petitioned for a hearing (and I have a hearing coming up in February, however I can't afford an attorney) for relief of firearms prohibition because I feel that it's strongly unnecessary for my particular case. The psychologist I've been seeing since I was discharged (in effort to help my chances, and to work on some personal issues (nothing serious really)) has written a letter explaining that I've "denied suicidal thoughts from the outset" (which is true) and within that also explains that I am participating in therapy.

Anyway, I was wondering if I could bypass the law by going out of state. I'm very interested in learning how to shoot, but I'd rather do it legally. If I violate the prohibition in California, I'll probably be charged with a felony which I really don't want. So does anyone know if section 8103 applies out of state? A 5150 is a 5 year ban in only California, however, federally does not bar you from owning firearms. A 5250 is a 5 year ban in California, and also bars you permanently from owning guns.

Any response is appreciated! Thanks!

Munk
12-24-2012, 8:20 PM
Seek genuine legal counsel.

As a general idea, check the CA Office of the Attorney General's List of prohibiting factors. (http://oag.ca.gov/sites/all/files/pdfs/firearms/forms/prohibcatmisd.pdf)

MattyB
12-24-2012, 10:34 PM
This thread has me worried, to say the least.

Meplat
12-24-2012, 10:41 PM
See an attorney for at least a preliminary consultation. Can’t be that much more expensive than traveling out of state and renting.

Noggles
12-24-2012, 10:43 PM
Don't shoot yourself.

JJ_
12-24-2012, 11:47 PM
If I were you, I'd wait and see what comes of your hearing in February. This may turn out to be a moot issue.

If you permanently moved out of California, I would think as long as you kept yourself out of trouble, no one would know the difference.

However, if you maintain a residents in California and simply travel outside to circumvent the law you'd technically still be breaking it. Would Law Enforcement ever know, probably not. Its your conscience and livelihood. You'll need to make that call.

QWi
12-25-2012, 2:19 AM
If I were you, I'd wait and see what comes of your hearing in February. This may turn out to be a moot issue.

If you permanently moved out of California, I would think as long as you kept yourself out of trouble, no one would know the difference.

However, if you maintain a residents in California and simply travel outside to circumvent the law you'd technically still be breaking it. Would Law Enforcement ever know, probably not. Its your conscience and livelihood. You'll need to make that call.

I've actually been calling various LE agencies in both states and asking them about it, and neither of them are giving me a yes/no answer. They just keep saying that they're not sure. I'm trying to make sense of it. Since the 5150 prohibition only applies to California, how could I break a law that's only valid in that state? Hence why I'm seeking some possibilities so that I can get a solid answer. I don't know. I mean, I don't WANT to break the law, and I won't if I know for certain it would be against the law to do that. But I'm awaiting my hearing. I'm just packing my bags if they uphold it. But I doubt they'll legitimately be able to meet their burden, but they'll probably find some way to say no. I don't know. I'll figure it out. Just seeking opinions is all! Thanks for the input! :)

This thread has me worried, to say the least.

Rest assured, I'm not going to hurt myself or anyone else, so you have absolutely nothing to worry about. :P A 5150 doesn't always mean the person behind the label is crazy. ;)

bussda
12-25-2012, 10:46 AM
It is my undertanding the federal government is giving block grants to the states to input information into NCIC which is accessed by the instant check. Does this include mental health information? I don't know. So I think you would be denied for purchase. Renting does not trigger a check, but if someone checks those records, then you may have a problem.

HonkingAntelope
12-25-2012, 11:02 AM
I've actually been calling various LE agencies in both states and asking them about it, and neither of them are giving me a yes/no answer. They just keep saying that they're not sure. I'm trying to make sense of it. Since the 5150 prohibition only applies to California, how could I break a law that's only valid in that state? Hence why I'm seeking some possibilities so that I can get a solid answer. I don't know. I mean, I don't WANT to break the law, and I won't if I know for certain it would be against the law to do that. But I'm awaiting my hearing. I'm just packing my bags if they uphold it. But I doubt they'll legitimately be able to meet their burden, but they'll probably find some way to say no. I don't know. I'll figure it out. Just seeking opinions is all! Thanks for the input! :)

No LE agency will give you a straight answer because they are not lawyers themselves, and it's a liability for them if you do go out and do something dumb.

As for the 5150 relief hearing, if packing your bags and moving to NV is more practical than retaining a decent attorney, then it doesn't really matter if you win the hearing or not, right? If you win, awesome; if not, time for plan B.

But if you want to stay in CA and keep your gun rights, you'll need a good lawyer. After Sandy Hook, not a lot of judges will be keen on just giving you your gun rights back unless you really get your ducks in row beforehand.

bobgengeskahn
12-25-2012, 11:31 AM
Hey CalGuns,
A 5250 is a 5 year lifetimeban in Californiathe US, and also bars you permanently from owning guns.


... IIRC. 5150 is the first 72 hours. 5250 is if there is an involuntary extension. Not a lawyer, just someone that has some personal experience with this and spent way too much personal time reading US Code and CA law.

Like others have said, if you have ~$150, sit down with a decent lawyer (ideally a Cal Guns lawyer) and get a consult.

Oceanbob
12-25-2012, 11:42 AM
I've actually been calling various LE agencies in both states and asking them about it, and neither of them are giving me a yes/no answer.


It's crazy to think any LE agency is going to dispense legal advice over the phone.


Can you figure that out?

Don't do a thing; don't touch a gun, wait for FEB to get this behind you.

CSACANNONEER
12-25-2012, 11:54 AM
You are not only banned from renting, buying or owning but also from possessing firearms. That includes just holding or even having access to one that you don't even know is there. Do not even think of going out of state or out of country to learn to shoot. Your actions would send up red flags and most would question your motives.

Now, you need to get this thread deleted and seek REAL legal council.

Moonshine
12-25-2012, 12:44 PM
To OP be aware that assemblyman Ted Gaines is introducing legislation that would ban firearms possession for life on individuals who have a 5150 or 5250.

kcstott
12-25-2012, 3:50 PM
Going out of state is also a violation of probation. So don't leave the state for any reason with out permission.

QWi
12-25-2012, 4:45 PM
Going out of state is also a violation of probation. So don't leave the state for any reason with out permission.
I'm not on probation.

Bobby Hated
12-25-2012, 11:20 PM
this thread gets the award for "thread title of the year" in my book. ha ha

Snoopy47
12-26-2012, 12:13 AM
this thread gets the award for "thread title of the year" in my book. ha ha

It certinally could read as a CNN headline

QWi
12-26-2012, 1:14 AM
this thread gets the award for "thread title of the year" in my book. ha ha
I'm so confused.

luchador768
12-26-2012, 9:45 AM
Pretty much every place I've ever rented a gun asks if you are a prohibited person. A few even have had the DROS questions in a slightly modified form. Also you will need a buddy to rent a gun, way too many people decided to redecorate the shooting lanes. I've been to Daves' in San Bernadino after such redecoration, it's pretty aweful.

Kid Stanislaus
12-26-2012, 10:02 AM
Don't shoot yourself.

That was a reprehensible thing to say.:mad:

monk
12-26-2012, 10:14 AM
OP needs to understand that even if he/she doesn't mean to put anyone here in a tight spot should someone be wrong about the law, there is still the possibility of liability should the OP break a law. With matter like this only a lawyer can truly give you the peace of mind you need.

vincewarde
12-26-2012, 5:47 PM
It is possible and even probable that other states may have laws that prohibit you from possessing/owning firearms based on your CA 5150.

If you were 5150 without good cause, you need to fight it at your hearing. As long as that 5150 remains unchallenged, your firearms rights anywhere in the US are in jeopardy. Remember that lots of people who plead guilty to make a minor domestic violence charge "go away", often on advice of their attorney, now find that they have a lifetime federal firearms prohibition.

Many people are 5150'ed without good cause. Cops often just want to make sure that something won't happen - like you committing suicide - after they leave. My advice as a former EMT/Paramedic who transported thousands of people on 5150 holds, is that is it appears that this is going to happen, IMMEDIATELY OFFER TO GO TO THE HOSPITAL VOLUNTARILY, IN THE AMBULANCE.

Often, you can avoid a 5150 in this way. I saw it happen many times. More than once, the person left the Psychiatric ER in under 30 minutes. After all, cops are not mental health professionals - and when faced with a decision to send the subject to the professionals or not, they frequently error on the side of caution. If you agree to go in the ambulance, the cop has more assurance that you actually will get there and be evaluated by the professionals. They also know that the EMTs or Paramedics will give a history to the hospital. If the 5150 is groundless, they will kick you loose and everyone is happy. If they put you on a 5150 hold, you are no worse off then if you were 5150 at the scene.

Just my .02 worth.

Robidouxs
12-27-2012, 6:24 AM
I agree with the above post. If they are there to take you to the hospital for evaluation go voluntarily. While at the hospital do not decide to just get up and leave, you will then be held for observation; an involuntary hold.

bobgengeskahn
12-27-2012, 6:54 AM
I agree with the above post. If they are there to take you to the hospital for evaluation go voluntarily. While at the hospital do not decide to just get up and leave, you will then be held for observation; an involuntary hold.

I don't think that is exactly what vincewarde was saying. When police show up on a welfare check they are either going to take you away for an involuntary hold and call a bus (5150), or they are going to call BS and leave.

If they are taking you in for "evaluation" i.e. you have injuries, its either going to be A&B of some kind with a police report, or if it is self inflicted then you're getting 5150d for sure. Unless, (what I believe vincewarde was saying) in transit you declare a voluntary hold/evaluation to the EMTs that are transporting you.

The general opinion, somewhat understandably is that its better to be safe than sorry. However, the consiquences and the broken mental health system are not structured to follow this mentality.

However hindsight is 20/20 and none of this helps the OP, although it is good general knowledge for people to know to save themselves a lot of trouble with the general paranoia these days....

QWi
12-27-2012, 9:51 AM
I've kind of been asking a lot of people who have been 5150'd lately about it. Some of them say they were 5150'd for no reason/the wrong reason. I kind of feel to some degree, it's an abused power.

A few months before this occurred, I had an incident where I was walking up and down my street, which is about a mile long. Wasn't walking near houses or anything, but on the far side of the road. Just walking. A Sergeant pulls up and gets out and introduces himself. I introduce myself and he asked me "So, what's up?" and I replied with "What do you mean?" He responds with "why are you walking up and down the road?" and I explained to him that I live on the street. He asks for ID and I wouldn't show him because he wasn't telling me information as to why I was being stopped (and even after, never clarified), so I refused and asked him if I could leave. He said no, and I asked if I was being detained. He ignored me and threw me up against the side of the car and handcuffed me. When I say threw, bear in mind, I weigh 120 lbs. This guy must've weighed mid-200s, but he was a big guy. He threw up against the car holding my head to the window of it and told me "Fine, if you want to be treated like a criminal, I'll treat you like a criminal". He handcuffed me and turned me toward him and asked for ID again. I refused and he grabbed my throat and choked me. That set me off. Just to make sure the people walking by were aware, I started sternly and loudly saying "I demand you remove your hand from my throat. I am NOT resisting an arrest. This is an unjust use of force and you're acting more like a bully rather than a law enforcement officer. Grow up." His partner pulled up and he stopped. I was put in the back of his partner's car, asked what I was being charged with. They ignored me, took me down to the sheriff's office. They asked for ID again, and started filling out this report in a software called PreSynct I think. I still refused, asking why I was being detained. No answer. An acquaintance of mine who is a Deputy came in and saw me, took off the handcuffs. Asked me why I was here, and I replied "I don't know". They kept asking for a bunch of information which I wouldn't give them, so I ended up being there for a few hours. I didn't know what it was at the time, but they kept throwing around the word "5150", and I kept hearing "gravely disabled". Also bear in mind that I'm a minor and that I'll turn 18 early next year. It came down to an ultimatum. I give them my ID and the phone number to my parent, or they "take me down somewhere." I gave them my Mom's phone number and nothing more, and a friend came and picked me up. That's a pretty bad way to be a role model there, especially for someone who wants to go into law enforcement someday. I'm not bashing the cops, I'm just telling it like it is. I was mistreated, and they tried to put me on a 5150 because I wasn't showing them my ID.

When I was actually 5150'd, the circumstances were a lot different, but I still don't think I should have been even in the situation I was in. I was never interviewed beforehand. They never asked me if I wanted to hurt myself or anything. They just went by what they saw, which was blown out of context. They should have at least interviewed me first before putting me on the hold. Once more, I think it's a really abused law. It has its purpose, and occasionally serves it, but they need to make the criteria more strict for executing things. While I was the hospital, most of the people there were in gangs and had no where else to go, so they just went there because they provided food, shelter, and clothing. One "patient" told me "it was here, or jail". I saw maybe about 3 people who actually needed to be there. It kind of give me a negative outlook on hospitals like that in general. One of the nurses was talking with one of the gang member. The nurse was apparently at one point in the same gang as the guy in the hospital.

So yeah. Stay away. Do whatever you can in the future not to be 5150'd. The law is in good faith, but it's not used in the right manner a fair amount of the time. You're treated like a criminal, not a patient. Keep that in mind. I've learned my lesson--watch my tongue.

bobgengeskahn
12-27-2012, 12:31 PM
I was never interviewed beforehand. They never asked me if I wanted to hurt myself or anything.


The PD doesn't inverview you, they detain and transport to a medical facility where you must be inprocessed by an attending psychiatrist withing X number of hours. Per the law...


They just went by what they saw, which was blown out of context.


This is normal, read any police report. Espeically with tensions running as high as they these days, there is no such thing as an "impartial" report.


They should have at least interviewed me first before putting me on the hold. Once more, I think it's a really abused law. It has its purpose, and occasionally serves it, but they need to make the criteria more strict for executing things.


Would you want police officers conducting field interviews for psychological fitness? If you want to become LEO, then you know how little schooling there is that is necessary for it. There is a reason that you have to be seen very soon upon arrival at a hospital by a qualified doctor for assessment. However, in some cases the 5150 is processed before the actual assessment, which is not against the law, so long as they get assessed within so many hours.



While I was the hospital, most of the people there were in gangs and had no where else to go, so they just went there because they provided food, shelter, and clothing. One "patient" told me "it was here, or jail". I saw maybe about 3 people who actually needed to be there. It kind of give me a negative outlook on hospitals like that in general. One of the nurses was talking with one of the gang member. The nurse was apparently at one point in the same gang as the guy in the hospital.


And this is what we have turned the heathcare system in general into, not to mention the deficincies in mental health care.

Personally, I don't oppose a reform of the system, but can you imagine what it will be like with things the way they are and adding Obamacare? :TFH:

AVID HUNTER
12-27-2012, 12:57 PM
No Offense, but you do realize that everyone on here just assumes that you never get the ability to possess a firearm, don't you? I think we would all be afraid if you had another "bad day" you may do something more than say something you shouldn't have. If you want to learn how to shoot, go get an airsoft or red ryder, but stay away from firearms.

QWi
12-27-2012, 1:36 PM
No Offense, but you do realize that everyone on here just assumes that you never get the ability to possess a firearm, don't you? I think we would all be afraid if you had another "bad day" you may do something more than say something you shouldn't have. If you want to learn how to shoot, go get an airsoft or red ryder, but stay away from firearms.
Perhaps you look at it that way. It's unfortunate that there's such a stigma to it. It's extremely disturbing how presumptive some people can be.

EVERYONE has a rough patch in life. I had a rough patch, and I was not exhibiting particularly violent behavior. So if you're a reasonable person, looking at it from a reasonable perspective, I simply had that rough patch in front of a few people--wrong place, wrong time. I am no more a risk than any other John or Joe out there. Matter of fact.

After a number of days research however, I've figured out the answer to my question. I can indeed change residencies to a different state, buy/attempt to buy/own/rent/etc. firearms if I feel I want to. I however cannot do so in California until this hold is up.

Looks like I'm moving if they uphold it at the hearing. I'll update you guys then.

bobgengeskahn
12-27-2012, 1:47 PM
Do you have sources on that? Just curious. The exact term escapes me at the moment, but many states honor other states rulings/licenses/laws etc. and this does show up on your CADMV record. Ive never changed resience out of state, so I dont know if they check your previous state of residency when applying for a new state. However, bearing in mind the time it takes to get residency elsewhere, the money it takes to move and any ties you might have here; it may/may not be worth it. Just some stuff to think about.

QWi
12-27-2012, 2:46 PM
Do you have sources on that? Just curious. The exact term escapes me at the moment, but many states honor other states rulings/licenses/laws etc. and this does show up on your CADMV record. Ive never changed resience out of state, so I dont know if they check your previous state of residency when applying for a new state. However, bearing in mind the time it takes to get residency elsewhere, the money it takes to move and any ties you might have here; it may/may not be worth it. Just some stuff to think about.
I'm sorry, I should have clarified: I was speaking in terms of Vegas. I called three attorneys, and they confirmed that it was okay.

Laythor
12-27-2012, 2:53 PM
before Sandy Hook i'd say your chances were good, now I doub't you'd find a judge in the country who would give you back your right to bear arms.

HappyCamper781
12-27-2012, 2:57 PM
Honest question, I thought the uploads were to the national-level NICS for the checks from the gun store/FFL side.

bobgengeskahn
12-27-2012, 3:19 PM
They are, however, when you are under an 8103 it is a note on your CADL. So it shows up when the FFL runs your DL.

ssaction
12-27-2012, 9:28 PM
If the prohibition is only 5 years, how long until yours expires?

Munk
12-27-2012, 11:19 PM
Perhaps you look at it that way. It's unfortunate that there's such a stigma to it. It's extremely disturbing how presumptive some people can be.

EVERYONE has a rough patch in life. I had a rough patch, and I was not exhibiting particularly violent behavior. So if you're a reasonable person, looking at it from a reasonable perspective, I simply had that rough patch in front of a few people--wrong place, wrong time. I am no more a risk than any other John or Joe out there. Matter of fact.

After a number of days research however, I've figured out the answer to my question. I can indeed change residencies to a different state, buy/attempt to buy/own/rent/etc. firearms if I feel I want to. I however cannot do so in California until this hold is up.

Looks like I'm moving if they uphold it at the hearing. I'll update you guys then.

I strongly advise you to get SOME form of representation or legal aid. You may not even have to go to the hearing if the right forms are filed in a timely manner and motions granted.

Paying for the legal expertise to get this taken care of is far cheaper than any complication you may run into afterwards should things go awry. It'll also probably cost less than any move you would make into another state just to buy guns again.

vincewarde
12-27-2012, 11:46 PM
I don't think that is exactly what vincewarde was saying. When police show up on a welfare check they are either going to take you away for an involuntary hold and call a bus (5150), or they are going to call BS and leave.

If they are taking you in for "evaluation" i.e. you have injuries, its either going to be A&B of some kind with a police report, or if it is self inflicted then you're getting 5150d for sure. Unless, (what I believe vincewarde was saying) in transit you declare a voluntary hold/evaluation to the EMTs that are transporting you.

The general opinion, somewhat understandably is that its better to be safe than sorry. However, the consiquences and the broken mental health system are not structured to follow this mentality.

However hindsight is 20/20 and none of this helps the OP, although it is good general knowledge for people to know to save themselves a lot of trouble with the general paranoia these days....

I will freely admit that my experiences are way old (I left the field in 1985), but back then there seemed to be countless circumstances that could lead to a 5150 or potential 5150. In most of those cases, including all of the attempted suicides, they were 5150ed and nothing they would have said would have changed that. In a minority of cases, all of which were what could have been considered borderline, I have seen the officer give the subject a choice of going in the Ambulance voluntarily or being placed on a hold. Usually these were cases where a family member was complaining about the subject's behavior, but the subject seemed somewhat reasonable. The officer was not 100% comfortable with leaving the person at the scene, but didn't want to place the person on a hold if it could be avoided. I think that a whole bunch of people would have avoided a 5150 altogether if they had said something like, "Officer, I think I am fine, but I completely understand that you are concerned for my welfare. Because you are concerned, I am willing to go to be evaluated, of my own free will right now. If you want me to go in an ambulance, that's how I will go."

I am sure that things have changed since than, and recognize that my experience was largely limited to Alameda and Contra Costa counties. Things may have been different in other places, even back than.

All of that said, I still think that you have nothing to loose by offering to go in voluntarily if it appears that the officer is concerned enough to write up a 5150. Lots of times this happens because of a domestic dispute or even because someone out of state has "heard something". Yes I do know that this doesn't really meet the legal standard for a 5150 hold - but trust me, it does happen - or at least it did happen.

I actually saw a couple of cops - who were sick a tried of being call back to a domestic flip a coin to decide if they would 5150 the husband or the wife. That had to be the worst - and the funniest - case of 5150 abuse I ever saw :)

philobeddoe
12-27-2012, 11:51 PM
That was a reprehensible thing to say.:mad:

Reprehensible? "Don't shoot yourself" is sound advice to anyone, particularly if they're handling a firearm. Get over it.

QWi
12-28-2012, 10:43 AM
If the prohibition is only 5 years, how long until yours expires?
I'll be 22 when it expires.

Reprehensible? "Don't shoot yourself" is sound advice to anyone, particularly if they're handling a firearm. Get over it.
True, it is indeed sound advice, especially to gun owners, but it's pretty obvious that there were some implications behind it.

bobgengeskahn
12-28-2012, 11:58 AM
Unfortunately, there are no accurate predictors of future violent behavior. If there were, we could prevent events like Sandy Hook without having to infringe on civil rights of the majority of the population. Sadly, previous interaction with the emergency psychiatric system remains one of the best predictors of future violence (albeit not a good one, overwhelmed by false positives). And it seems that statements like "everyone has a rough patch" show that you have not quite internalized the gravity of your situation. Which is why I'll add to the chorus of voices imploring you to seek professional legal and medical aid. The best possible result for you would be to demonstrate that you were actually never in a legitimate 5150/5250 situation, and that it all was a big mistake.

This.

Although having rights taken away de-facto irks me to no end, especially if an evaluation is written into the law. Anyone here, including myself would agree (I would think) that there is still a line at which someone having their rights (2A or otherwise) could result in harming someone else exercising their rights; and once that line is crossed, or beyond a reasonable doubt, about to be, it would be a wise time to consider infringing on an individuals rights in order to maintain a safe society. Or even better would be if the system were designed to actually help a person (i.e. mental health etc.) before stripping their natural rights.